Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:45:56 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.


that's true now


Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.

Price is never directly related to quality.
Price is only a function of demand.

Demand is a function of lots of complex variables, which is why they
invented Marketing (to greatly influence the demand).

I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
which contains dead cars.


same here


I can't imagine buying used brake shoes or pads off a scrapped car.
I just can't.

Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?


they're on cars, so used.'


Whoever proposes to buy brake pads and shoes off of junked cars is fine
with his logic, but he doesn't need to repeat it since it's not something
most of us would do.

I can see buying some parts at a scrap yard (e.g., a door or a fender), but
I just can't see buying a brake pad or shoe off a scrapped car.

How do you even do that? Do you walk around the junk yard to look for your
exact year, make and model and then pull the wheels and then pull the pads?

That's a lot of work, if you even find the right make and model, and then
if you can get to it (since they pile these things five cars high
sometimes) and if you can get the rusted lug bolts and brake drums off and
then you have to disassemble the brakes.

Seems like a *lot* of work for a brake shoe that will be "iffy" because you
have no way of knowing their condition ahead of time.

Or, maybe the junk yard does that for you, but then you are just staring at
a pile of brake shoes on the wall, which maybe, if you're lucky, have
accurate designations for the make and model of the vehicle they came off
of.

I guess if you bring your old shoes with you, you can match them, but that
means your car is on blocks the whole time you do this, so you have to have
a second vehicle to do it.

I just don't see *how* it's practicable.
Do you?
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:52:07 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

not really. But cars generally seem to deal with it ok.
Ultimately it comes down to enough force to create enough
friction, and almost any friction material can do that.


I agree with your logical thought process in that the only scientific
summary that makes logical sense is that all pads work just fine in
passenger vehicles, with the main difference being the foot pounds of
torque applied to the brake pedal to obtain the desired deceleration rate.

Hence, any pad is fine, EE or FF or GG, for stopping the vehicle.

I certainly bought bad pads in about 2000.

I go though a set of front pads once every couple of years, never more than
two years on my own vehicle, but on this vehicle, it took 20 years to go
through one set of rear shoes.

The ones from the scrapyard OTOH I had no problem with.


The problem isn't the scrapyard per se.
The problem is getting the *right* pads at the scrapyard.
That can't be easy (see my other post on how that's done).

Those I got to see after they'd been used a bit, so I knew they
weren't disintegrating, let alone badly, or oily.


What does that even mean?

You criticised buying pads off scrap vehicles before, but truth
is every time you buy a used car you're getting used brake pads.
It's not a problem really.


I don't at all disagree with your apropos logic that every time you buy a
used car you get used pads, but, you can assume (logically) that the pads
fit.

I've been to junk yards where there literally are junked cars piled four
and five cars high outdoors, where you walk the yard looking for the fender
or mirror that you want.

To look for brake pads would be an order of magnitude harder because you
can't see the brake pad until you find a similar vehicle make model and
year, you climb up to the top car, you remove the wheels, you pull the
rusty drums or calipers off, and then, only then, do you get any chance to
see the condition of the brake pads and shoes.

Or, if the scrapyard does all that for you, and has placed a ton of brake
shoes on the shelves, you can pick among them for the right size and shape,
but that process comes with the problem that you have to have a comparison
pad and shoe in your hands, which means your car is up on blocks and you're
borrowing someone else's car.

If you can read the AMECA edge code, you have a chance at getting the right
shoe or pad, but it sure does seem like a lot of effort when an FF pad or
shoe is about $20 a set of four at Rock Auto.

Did I surmise the scrap yard process incorrectly?
If so, how would you correct that process of *selecting* the right pads?
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 07:00:25 -0800 (PST),
Terry Schwartz wrote:

"On topic" would be electronics related.


Fair enough.
You passed the test of posting an on-topic post.

I understand your logic (I was hoping Jeff Liebermann would answer).

Since your logic is unassailable...

I will *remove* s.e.r from all my responses from now moving forward.
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On 1/16/18 12:16 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
I will *remove* s.e.r from all my responses from now moving forward.


Lucky us.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com
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On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 1:16:38 PM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:


Since your logic is unassailable...

I will *remove* s.e.r from all my responses from now moving forward.


But, of course, not from the initial blathering, most likely. This accretion of bad smells needs the validation.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA



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On Monday, 15 January 2018 20:34:21 UTC, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr wrote:


You "only" get what you pay for - and then only if you are both lucky
and astute. You SELDOM get more than what you pay for

You can take THAT to the bank.


+1. Though even then there can be exceptions on occasion.


That's retail for you!

And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake
shoes for +AKM-1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why?


Because someone was unloading something they didn't need, at a price
to get it off their shelves - and your requirements were not severe
enough to require anything better.


no-one here buys brakes off a scrapped car from scrapyards, so they had about zero market value. They were decent enough though. There was no reason to think they were any worse than the array of stuff sold new, and being for back brakes it wasn't a demanding app.

But my later experience with disintegrating pads suggests that getting brake shoes/pads this way may actually be safer.


I've also been "lucky" enough to pick up some real "bargoons" by
being at the right place at the right time. I often buy what no-one
wants any more - nobody inOntario wanted a 1972 Pontiac Firenza in
1974 or 1975 - so I gor an almost pristine Vauxhaul Viva HC Magnum
coupe for $75 - and it served me well for a number of years before I
sold it to a friend of my wife, who needed a car and had no money for
something "good" - and she drove it another 7 years untill it required
a part that was not readily available or available at a decent cost .

I got "more than my money's worth" - I got "more than I paid for".

The same with my current pickup truck which I bought for $1500 because
nobody wanted a meticulously maintained 16 year old ford Ranger with
over 300,000km on it. It's been virtually trouble free for 6 years -
I've spent about $1500 on repairs over more than 50,000km, and all
indications areI'll get a few more years out of it. I got more than
my money's worth.

In both cases It was because I new the "value" of what I was buying
better than both the seller and other potential buyers.


I like those kind of deals. Sometimes I get them.


No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though
they're the same parts you get in the shops.


No they are not


how could they possibly not be? The new brakes sold end up on scrap cars


- and in MANY places it is illegal to sell used brake
parts and used exhaust/emission parts.


thank god not here

I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a
billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it.


Sometimes a car ends up in a scrapyard with lots of brand new parts
on it. The owner puts $3000 into making it safe to drive - new brakes,
suspension,and tires - the either has it hit, or blows a motor or
transmission, and decides not to keep it and repair it - or they spend
all kinds of money fixing it up - making it into their ":boy racer's
wet dream" and then cannot get it to pass smog - and it ends up in the
scrapyard with LOTS of good and/or expensive parts on it.

That said - as a matter of principal - unless no other adequate
source of brake parts was available, I'd be looking elsewhere - first.
Have I used "used" brake parts in the past??
Yes. I put a complete used rear axle from a '63 Belvedere into my '53
Coronet - brakes and all - as an upgrade when the originals failed and
OEM parts were not readilly available, and the old design was less
than optimal.
ANd I put used parts on my '49 VW in Livingstone Zambia. Where was I
going to get new parts??????? On a Sunday afternoon half way between
Choima and Macha - (look it up on Google Earth - and keep in mind
this was 44 years ago - - - - .


I can't help thinking folk are deriving a false sense of security from buying new. The only totally unsatisfactory brake pads I've had were brand new from a major UK chain. If I'd seen those in a scrapyard I'd have known not to touch them. New one can't tell that they'll disintegrate in use.


Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating
of oak is?


Obviously not sufficientfor a 3 ton vehicle going 100MPH - and
definitely not as good after a long downhill stop - -- but likely, at
low speeds - al ot better than you suspect!!!


I presume the main issues with oak are
1. compressibility, meaning it requires more force x distance to get it to do the job
2. charring along with low thermal conduction, meaning high speed stops are no-go, or would that be go and keep going. If heated to such a point the wear would also be excessive.
3. flammability

The solution? More contact area


Or rubber in bicycle brakes.


There is SIGNIFICANT difference between different compounds of
"rubber" pads for rim brakes - includingin their stopping power and
their destructive effect on rims - some better for chromed rims, and
others for Alloy rims - some working better for side-pull, and others
for center pull (different amounts of pressure available)


I never knew that.


NT
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On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 17:25:40 UTC, Mad Roger wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:45:56 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr wrote:

I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.


that's true now


Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.

Price is never directly related to quality.
Price is only a function of demand.


even that's wrong.

Demand is a function of lots of complex variables, which is why they
invented Marketing (to greatly influence the demand).

I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
which contains dead cars.


same here


I can't imagine buying used brake shoes or pads off a scrapped car.
I just can't.

Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?


they're on cars, so used.'


Whoever proposes to buy brake pads and shoes off of junked cars is fine
with his logic, but he doesn't need to repeat it since it's not something
most of us would do.

I can see buying some parts at a scrap yard (e.g., a door or a fender), but
I just can't see buying a brake pad or shoe off a scrapped car.

How do you even do that? Do you walk around the junk yard to look for your
exact year, make and model and then pull the wheels and then pull the pads?


why would you need the same year car? The same brake assembly was used across the body style & engine/trim option range for years

That's a lot of work, if you even find the right make and model,


no work at all. 'I'm looking for abc from an xyz. We got those here, here & here.'

and then
if you can get to it (since they pile these things five cars high
sometimes)


not all are.

and if you can get the rusted lug bolts and brake drums off and


you're not much of a mechanic if you can't get brake drums off

then you have to disassemble the brakes.


well, remove the shoes anyway, a trivial exercise

Seems like a *lot* of work


maybe 5-10 minutes versus 5 buying new off the shelf. Since I was also there to buy another entire wheel/brake assembly it saved time rather than adding it.


for a brake shoe that will be "iffy" because you
have no way of knowing their condition ahead of time.


total rubbish.


I just don't see *how* it's practicable.


so I see

Do you?


Sure, I've done cars up before. I see your attitude a lot, and find it fundamentally silly. Sorry but I do.


NT
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On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 18:16:00 UTC, Mad Roger wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:52:07 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr wrote:

not really. But cars generally seem to deal with it ok.
Ultimately it comes down to enough force to create enough
friction, and almost any friction material can do that.


I agree with your logical thought process in that the only scientific
summary that makes logical sense is that all pads work just fine in
passenger vehicles, with the main difference being the foot pounds of
torque applied to the brake pedal to obtain the desired deceleration rate..

Hence, any pad is fine, EE or FF or GG, for stopping the vehicle.


With respect we know that all pads or shoes don't work fine, and I've never claimed they do. If your unfamiliar with brake failure on modern cars due to the driver using them more & harder than design specs then maybe brake work is not for you. It's precisely why pursuit vehicles have better brakes.

Driving down a mountainside in one history piece I had, well aware of the tendency for brakes to fail in that scenario. Suffice it to say I had to stop when they were getting close to that point. Had I been Jo Average with no clue about brake fade there would have been a big mess. The first time I encountered this I discovered that the degree of fade was far worse than I'd expected, braking effect can go from 100% to nothing repeatedly. The only thing preventing carnage is the nut behind the wheel.


I certainly bought bad pads in about 2000.

I go though a set of front pads once every couple of years, never more than
two years on my own vehicle, but on this vehicle, it took 20 years to go
through one set of rear shoes.

The ones from the scrapyard OTOH I had no problem with.


The problem isn't the scrapyard per se.
The problem is getting the *right* pads at the scrapyard.
That can't be easy (see my other post on how that's done).


it's almost trivial

Those I got to see after they'd been used a bit, so I knew they
weren't disintegrating, let alone badly, or oily.


What does that even mean?

You criticised buying pads off scrap vehicles before, but truth
is every time you buy a used car you're getting used brake pads.
It's not a problem really.


I don't at all disagree with your apropos logic that every time you buy a
used car you get used pads, but, you can assume (logically) that the pads
fit.


One would hope so

I've been to junk yards where there literally are junked cars piled four
and five cars high outdoors, where you walk the yard looking for the fender
or mirror that you want.

To look for brake pads would be an order of magnitude harder because you
can't see the brake pad until you find a similar vehicle make model and
year, you climb up to the top car, you remove the wheels, you pull the
rusty drums or calipers off, and then, only then, do you get any chance to
see the condition of the brake pads and shoes.


Normally they're ok, and normally the owner has a pretty good idea which of his stock has had recent brake work on it, so will point you to those.

Or, if the scrapyard does all that for you, and has placed a ton of brake
shoes on the shelves, you can pick among them for the right size and shape,
but that process comes with the problem that you have to have a comparison
pad and shoe in your hands, which means your car is up on blocks and you're
borrowing someone else's car.

If you can read the AMECA edge code, you have a chance at getting the right
shoe or pad, but it sure does seem like a lot of effort when an FF pad or
shoe is about $20 a set of four at Rock Auto.

Did I surmise the scrap yard process incorrectly?
If so, how would you correct that process of *selecting* the right pads?


there were no markings or codes on them then. AFAIK all the available options were asbestos based.

$20 to get pads you don't know how they'll hold up in service versus $1.50 to get pads that you can see are doing good and have 90+% of life left. That's really the choice, at least for cars where you have both options, which of course you don't always.


NT
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On 1/16/18 7:57 PM, wrote:

[ Snip ]

You're talking to yourself. **** for brains left already.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com
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Mad Roger posted for all of us...


I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
Know what they taught me?

a. Defensive driving
b. Noise pollution is bad
c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
ambulances)


Then you have been poorly trained. Our company had mandatory EVOC (Emergency
Vehicle Operations Course) training by a certified instructor &
recertification. PA is a "due regard" state. Look it up. You can't help if
the vehicle is crashed. You are responsible for the crew and victims.

--
Tekkie


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On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-5, Tekkie® wrote:
Mad Roger posted for all of us...


I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
Know what they taught me?

a. Defensive driving
b. Noise pollution is bad
c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
ambulances)


Then you have been poorly trained. Our company had mandatory EVOC (Emergency
Vehicle Operations Course) training by a certified instructor &
recertification. PA is a "due regard" state. Look it up. You can't help if
the vehicle is crashed. You are responsible for the crew and victims.


3105. - Title 75 - PA General Assembly

(d) Ambulances, blood delivery vehicles and human organ delivery vehicles.--The driver of an ambulance, blood delivery vehicle or human organ delivery vehicle shall comply with maximum speed limits, red signal indications and stop signs. After ascertaining that the ambulance, blood delivery vehicle or human organ delivery vehicle will be given the right-of-way, the driver may proceed through a red signal indication or stop sign.

As it happens, in PA.

However, Jimmy Neutron in any of his guises is still an idiot.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA.

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