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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#41
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#42
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On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:51:59 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote: the PRIMARY quality of a brake material that YOU need to worry about is "performance" That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake feel, pad life, and rotor life. Yes. But. There's no way to tell that if you have two pads in your hands, and even less of a way to tell if you're buying two pads online. Remember, *all* the marketing is complete bull**** (refer back to Axxis, PBR, and Metal Masters - three differently marketed and priced pads, all exactly the same - and refer to the fact that there are no laws telling them that a spec of dust isn't ceramic and that a spec of iron isn't semimetallic. The only law that I know of is that they can't call a non-asbestos pad that if it contains asbestos. Maybe someone here knows the laws, but that's my sad conclusion so far. The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE . (Both are essentially an F -) Yes. You have always been right on that. I don't disagree. I was hoping beyond hope that there was a way for the consumer to tell pad A from pad B when they are in the consumer's hands. But it's not possible. Anyone who *thinks* he can tell, is fooling himself. So every butt-dyno inspired "review" out there is complete bull**** (and always was for a huge number of reasons). Everything is bull****. That's what's so sad. The only thing we know, by looking at a pad, is who made it, what its friction coefficient is, and whether or not some other pad is made by that company and whether or not it's exactly the same friction material. That's it. Everything else we "think" we know, is complete marketing bull****. AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they will be close. Yes. You have always been right, but ... and this is a big butt! ![]() 1) If you get OE pads (from the dealer or pads with the exact same DOT Edge Code), then you get the handling specified by the manufacturer (assuming your vehicle is essentially the same, e.g., same size tires, same suspension setup, etc.) 2) Otherwise, if you get somethign that some marketing guy "says" is "OEM Quality", then you know almost nothing since you have to "ask" what the **** "OEM Quality" means to the marketing bull****ter who is telling you that. So, if it's actually true that it's OEM Quality, then it's OEM Quality. But what the **** does OEM Quality mean when we already know that the second-order effects are almost as great as the first order effects here. Does OEM Quality mean that the shoe has the same friction coefficient? (Let's hope so - but it's *easy* to find an FF pad, so, it has to be more, right?) Does OEM Quality mean the shoe lasts as long? Is as dustless? Makes as much noise? Has the same pedal force per deceleration value? Outgasses the same? Fades the same? Who the **** knows the answer to that question? The only Occam's Razor logical answer to that question is that OEM Quality is bull**** unless you *trust* the guy who says it - and even then - he doesn't know himself - so you'd have to trust the "scientist" who told him to say that. I talk to my jobber and ask what their warranty experience is with different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has problems. Yes. I always defer to your greater experience. But I don't have "my jobber". Heck, you are "my jobber", in effect. ![]() So I understand that if I ask someone who has tons of experience, like you do, then I can get closer, but even you can't tell me what the difference is between the $20 pads and the $157 pads unless I dig up all the relevant information about them, and even then, if your jobber isn't experienced with them, then I'm back at starting point zero. So your access to a jobber is great - but I don't have that access. Years ago I got and read the Service Station and Garage Management magazine - which had articles about different products - written by mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the Stinkers. Most people think that if you drop a big ball and a small ball, they'll land at different times. Most people, I think, trust their feelings more than they trust measurements. That's why I don't trust butt dyno reports. People feel their car goes faster if they put in $5/gallon fuel than if they put in $2/gallon fuel, even if it doesn't. Their reviews are always written to placate their own preconceived notions. The *only* review I will trust is a blind review, where the driver doesn't know anything about the pads, and where that driver didn't write the review and didn't get paid for writing the review and who doesn't get advertisement money either. And that's almost zero reviews. All those reviews in Car & Driver and Motortrend are bull****, IMHO. I realize you're talking a *different* kind of mag, so maybe it's not a rag like those are, but it's not something I'm going to read unless you know of a brake comparison that is meaningful. For example, I hear all the time someone claiming their Cooper tire is better than my Dunlops or Hancook's, but without the manufacturer's comprehensive tire test for *all* the tires, we have nothing to go by. Same here. Just having one test is useless. The test has to cover all brake pads we have available to us. And they just don't. Look for a certified label As someone else said, the certified label is the receipt which has a zip code, which proves that you bought the pads in the USA. The only reliable conclusion we can make is that any pad legally sold in the USA is about the same in performance as far as anyone can tell just by looking at the pad. Unless a scientific test has been run, they're all the same is the only conclusion anyone can make, since any other conclusion (that they're different) has to be based on bull****. That's just sad. New vehicles must meet federal performance standards+AJc-a minimum stopping distance in a variety of situations under a specified pedal effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not necessarily the case. I don't know that new vehicles must meet stopping distance standards but I don't doubt you as you've been right all along. However, any pad sold in the US has to also meet standards, and it seems that any pad works, based on those standards. I'm not saying that all pads are exactly alike. I definitely think they're not. I'm just saying that all the information available to us saying they are not alike, is based on bull**** that isn't backed up by any science that is available to us. As the Ameca engineer told me, the guy submitting the material is the only guy who knows anything about them. Nobody else does. And even that guy, the Ameca engineer kept telling me, doesn't know anything about any other material. In an effort to improve the customer's comfort level+AJc-and also to avoid future government regulations+AJc-brake manufacturers can test and verify their products under two voluntary certification standards. Both are designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being installed on their vehicle are certified. Exactly. I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life, so I don't really know what *other* people do, but I would *guess* that most people go to a brake shop like Midas or America's Tire, or the local indy, and they expect to get brake pads and shoes. I doubt they ask much about what they got, but if I took a score of cars to a score of brake shops, I wouldn't be surprised to get more than a dozen different brands on the vehicle. Only at the dealer would I expect a specific brand. Is that a correct assumption? (I have zero experience with mechanics.) I'll cover the rest separately. I do appreciate your advice as you have been right all along. You just happen to have more resources available to you than I have to me. |
#43
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#44
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#45
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Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......
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#47
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:51:59 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote: the PRIMARY quality of a brake material that YOU need to worry about is "performance" That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake feel, pad life, and rotor life. Yes. But. There's no way to tell that if you have two pads in your hands, and even less of a way to tell if you're buying two pads online. Remember, *all* the marketing is complete bull**** (refer back to Axxis, PBR, and Metal Masters - three differently marketed and priced pads, all exactly the same - and refer to the fact that there are no laws telling them that a spec of dust isn't ceramic and that a spec of iron isn't semimetallic. The only law that I know of is that they can't call a non-asbestos pad that if it contains asbestos. Maybe someone here knows the laws, but that's my sad conclusion so far. The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE . (Both are essentially an F -) Yes. You have always been right on that. I don't disagree. I was hoping beyond hope that there was a way for the consumer to tell pad A from pad B when they are in the consumer's hands. OK - we've gotten off the subject of brake SHOES - wherer there is a lot less difference in materials and construction - but with PADS there are several things you can consider that are NOT "marketing bull****" Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they are harsher on rotors and noisier) Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics, but are not as effective when cold as metallics. Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads - leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials. You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous materials with a magnet. For rear brake SHOES a good organic material is usually your best bet - they do not do a lot of the stopping, so generally outlast front pads by a LARGE margine and unless towing, heavy loads, or extreme duty they seldom get hot enough to fade much (compared to front brakes - where droms significantly outperform discs in initial stopping power, but quickly loose efficiency due to heat. The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier "boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota. You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever technology meets your desires. I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts. But it's not possible. Anyone who *thinks* he can tell, is fooling himself. So every butt-dyno inspired "review" out there is complete bull**** (and always was for a huge number of reasons). Everything is bull****. That's what's so sad. Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks. The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all "science" is) When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar. That's why their prices are generally so good (if, unlike here in Canada, the shipping costs don't totally wipe out the savings in so many cases) Taking into account the exchange rate and shipping, I can GENERALLY buy , say, Wagner, from Napa or Parts Source for VERY close to the same price as I can buy from Rock. The only thing we know, by looking at a pad, is who made it, what its friction coefficient is, and whether or not some other pad is made by that company and whether or not it's exactly the same friction material. That's it. Everything else we "think" we know, is complete marketing bull****. No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of ignorance. AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they will be close. Yes. You have always been right, but ... and this is a big butt! ![]() 1) If you get OE pads (from the dealer or pads with the exact same DOT Edge Code), then you get the handling specified by the manufacturer (assuming your vehicle is essentially the same, e.g., same size tires, same suspension setup, etc.) 2) Otherwise, if you get somethign that some marketing guy "says" is "OEM Quality", then you know almost nothing since you have to "ask" what the **** "OEM Quality" means to the marketing bull****ter who is telling you that. Fiorget your paranoia about "marketting bull****" It is BULL****. Don't get your technical information from know-nothing boy-racers blogging on the internet, or reviews opn Amazon,or advertizing in enthusiast magazines. Get your info from "trade magazines" and major suppliers to the automotive TRADE. Buy STEAK, not Sizzle. Forget your boutique brand crap. If your favourite brands were as good as you seem to think they are, they would have displaced TRW, WAGNER, Akebono, and the other major OEM SUPPLIERS as the major aftermarket suppliers. WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc? They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond, etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket and OEM REplacement . For good reason. They have the engineering, and they have the "critical mass" to be able to produce quality at a reasonable price. Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a field totally outside your reralm. Concentrate on becoming the BEST ELECTRICAL ENGINEER you can be and let the automotive engineers do their job., Along with the materials engineers, physicists, chemists, and wizards their potions and perscriptions are working pretty good. When you start to build specialized race vehicles or highly modified special purpose vehicles, you go to the engineers with a blank checquebook and have them come up with the specialized solution you require - or you go to an "application engineer" and have him pick the best off-the-shelf solution for your application - at a significantly lower price point and a much better chance of initial success. So, if it's actually true that it's OEM Quality, then it's OEM Quality. But what the **** does OEM Quality mean when we already know that the second-order effects are almost as great as the first order effects here. OEM means BASICALLY THE SAME DESIGN as OEM - so the second and third order effects are taken intoaccount the same asthe OEM. This can NOT be done by a "boutique" marketing company that buys their product out of the discard bucket of some chinese sweatshop, or off the back loading dock. ONE of your "favorite brands" - pehaps MetalMaster -whichever one is charging the highest price, most likely paid some shop in China to produce their product afterr having paid some qualified enginners to come up with the specs and formulation - then the unscrupulous "*******s" in China unloaded a few containerloads out the back door to some chinese marketing company who sold them to the other 2 manufacturers. - and quite possibly cheapened the product - possibly even to the initial purchacer - by substituting inferior raw materials, or cuttin corners on production - to sell it at a better price to the other companies - without ever changing the stamp on the material. I've had dealings with the scoundrels, where my company paid for the design and tooling for a product, only to have it on the cover of "asian sources Computer" magazine for half what we were paying for it before we even got our first containerload. You deal with Chinese Industry at your peril. If you have FULL CONTROL you MAY come out unscathed (Full control is a mirage) Your 3 products MAY be the same. They MAY all be legitimate. They MAY actually meet the specs stamped on them - but certainly do NOT bet your life on it. When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting. Does OEM Quality mean that the shoe has the same friction coefficient? (Let's hope so - but it's *easy* to find an FF pad, so, it has to be more, right?) Does OEM Quality mean the shoe lasts as long? OEM Quality means it meets the specifications of the OEM product - in all the major areas including stopping power/performance, feel, and life. Is as dustless? Makes as much noise? Has the same pedal force per deceleration value? Outgasses the same? Fades the same? Who the **** knows the answer to that question? Certainly you don't, and never will if you don't listen and get treetment for your paranoia. The only Occam's Razor logical answer to that question is that OEM Quality is bull**** unless you *trust* the guy who says it - and even then - he doesn't know himself - so you'd have to trust the "scientist" who told him to say that. Get back on your medications - and if you have never been medicated, see a professional for dianosis and a perscription as soon as possible I talk to my jobber and ask what their warranty experience is with different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has problems. Yes. I always defer to your greater experience. But I don't have "my jobber". Heck, you are "my jobber", in effect. ![]() I have the advantage of being a legitimate tradesman with links to the automotive oem replacement and afterrmarket locally, and am known (and respected) by many of them even though I have been actively out of the trade for over 2 decades - they don't "bull****" me. If they try, they find out pretty quickly that it doesn't work. They can usuallyspot a "poser" pretty quickly. So I understand that if I ask someone who has tons of experience, like you do, then I can get closer, but even you can't tell me what the difference is between the $20 pads and the $157 pads unless I dig up all the relevant information about them, and even then, if your jobber isn't experienced with them, then I'm back at starting point zero. I can tell you your $20 pads are NOT ceramic - almost 100% guaranteed - and I can tell you the $157 pads arer NOT simple organics - almost 100% guarantee. I can also tell you if you are buying "boutique" brands you are likely overpaying for whatever it is you are buying. If I have them in my hand I can give you a pretty good guess as to how they will stand up, and what affect they will have on your rotors. You do not have this knowlege, and are very unlikely to ever gain that knowlege because it comes with experience, along with training and research in a field in which you have not got the training, and your level of paranoia precludes you EVER absorbing the knowlege offered to you. So your access to a jobber is great - but I don't have that access. You have access to trade supplies like NAPA. Sadly they will sell to anyone who darkens their door. Years ago I got and read the Service Station and Garage Management magazine - which had articles about different products - written by mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the Stinkers. Most people think that if you drop a big ball and a small ball, they'll land at different times. Most people, I think, trust their feelings more than they trust measurements. And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have oversimplified that last statement A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind resistance due to size. Not only that, a pingpong ball and a baloon will also fall at different speeds. - and if the balloon is full of hot air or helium it won't fall at all. You simplify things way too much on one hand, and complicate them way to much onthe other. I'd hate to have you design an electrical control system for me if your grasp of electrical engineering is as poor as your grasp of physice and aerodynamics - - - "There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary logic and those who don't" That's why I don't trust butt dyno reports. People feel their car goes faster if they put in $5/gallon fuel than if they put in $2/gallon fuel, even if it doesn't. Their reviews are always written to placate their own preconceived notions. If you spend megabucks on something, and stake your reputation on being right, then of course everthing you buy MUST work. I had a brother inlaw who died of cancer because he KNEW the product he had been selling and using cured cancer - so there was NO WAY his cancer had come back If he admitted he had cancer again, he had lied to everyone he peddled the stuff to and his life had been a lie - so he didn't have cancer - untill it killed him. The *only* review I will trust is a blind review, where the driver doesn't know anything about the pads, and where that driver didn't write the review and didn't get paid for writing the review and who doesn't get advertisement money either. Like the double blind study done by Nokian with the automotive press on their Hakkapelitta snow tires. Nobody knew which cars had what tires on them during the tests - but the experienced drivers could tell. And that's almost zero reviews. All those reviews in Car & Driver and Motortrend are bull****, IMHO. I realize you're talking a *different* kind of mag, so maybe it's not a rag like those are, but it's not something I'm going to read unless you know of a brake comparison that is meaningful. For example, I hear all the time someone claiming their Cooper tire is better than my Dunlops or Hancook's, but without the manufacturer's comprehensive tire test for *all* the tires, we have nothing to go by. Well, I KNOW that some coopers are better than some Duinlops - and also that some dunlops are better than some Coopers, and a few years back just about ANYTHING was better than a Hankook. I also know that Hankook builds and sells some pretty decent tires today. (and like most manufacturers - some total CRAP. I also know that many "northamerican brand" tires are now made in China or Korea, or Thailand or VietNam. Same here. Just having one test is useless. The test has to cover all brake pads we have available to us. And they just don't. Look for a certified label As someone else said, the certified label is the receipt which has a zip code, which proves that you bought the pads in the USA. BUll****. Read the article I posted for you. It is an international certification program - independent of the manufacturer The only reliable conclusion we can make is that any pad legally sold in the USA is about the same in performance as far as anyone can tell just by looking at the pad. Unless a scientific test has been run, they're all the same is the only conclusion anyone can make, since any other conclusion (that they're different) has to be based on bull****. That's just sad. What is REALLY sad is you are so mired in Bovine Excement and paranoia that you can't see the forest for the trees. New vehicles must meet federal performance standards+AJc-a minimum stopping distance in a variety of situations under a specified pedal effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not necessarily the case. If you buy QUALITY replacement parts, they will meet or excede those specs. If you buy boutique crap online you have no assurances at all. I don't know that new vehicles must meet stopping distance standards but I don't doubt you as you've been right all along. However, any pad sold in the US has to also meet standards, and it seems that any pad works, based on those standards. There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal speeds under normal conditions. - For a while. I'm not saying that all pads are exactly alike. I definitely think they're not. I'm just saying that all the information available to us saying they are not alike, is based on bull**** that isn't backed up by any science that is available to us. Your paranoia and ignorance is showing - BIG TIME. If I put Wagner Thermoquiet ceramic pads on the front of my vehicle, and wagner or monroe premium shoes on the rear, with good rotors and pads (no grooves or glazing) and I properly break them in, I KNOW I will be stopping well for the next couple of years or 10-20000km with no issues IF I service the front calipers regularly to be sure the sliders don't stick - and that's here in the "rust belt" of Central Ontario. I also know, from experience, that if I pay 3 times as much for EBC greenstuff pads from some performace shop for my "Mondeo" as what I pay for OEM wagners, they don't last any longer or stop any better than if I put on Wagner Semi Metallics. Been there - done that - threw away the awful "t" shirt --- As the Ameca engineer told me, the guy submitting the material is the only guy who knows anything about them. Nobody else does. And even that guy, the Ameca engineer kept telling me, doesn't know anything about any other material. ANd the guy who submits it may not know squat about it either other than where he had it made and by who. In an effort to improve the customer's comfort level+AJc-and also to avoid future government regulations+AJc-brake manufacturers can test and verify their products under two voluntary certification standards. Both are designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being installed on their vehicle are certified. Exactly. I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life, so I don't really know what *other* people do, but I would *guess* that most people go to a brake shop like Midas or America's Tire, or the local indy, and they expect to get brake pads and shoes. Perhaps three of the WORST places to go - and your " I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life," speeks volumes - if nothing else - about your combination of paranoia and ignorance. I doubt they ask much about what they got, but if I took a score of cars to a score of brake shops, I wouldn't be surprised to get more than a dozen different brands on the vehicle. ANd if you took them to those brake shops, you will have paid more than necessary and gotten less than you paiud for unless you knewa lot more than you do. Only at the dealer would I expect a specific brand. Is that a correct assumption? (I have zero experience with mechanics.) Totally wrong. Go to a Napa Autopro garage and you will get product sold by NAPA - either their own brand or a national brand - either economy or premium - depending on what you are willing to pay. The fact you have "no experience with mechanics" and yet you are so paranoid speeks volumes. A young graduate engineer with no experience and an inflated opinion of himself and his knowlege in a field for which he has NO TRAINING. Don't know about where you are, but I had5 years of training before I could call myself a mechanic. As a teacher of automechanics I had to make sure my students had a good grasp of elementary physics (levers, ratios,mechanical advantage,friction and lubrication) and the related maths, as well as electricity and electronics, plumbing, machining,some thermodynamics, as well as hoiw to properly select and use the proper tools for a job and to work safely. And on top of that, I had to teach them about "auto mechanics". After becoming a registered. "licenced" mechanic I took courses put on by the trade suppliers and the oil companies (when I worked at service stations) and the manufacturers (when I worked for a dealership) to keep up to the "state of the art" in products, tools, and diagnosis methods, (troubleshooting) among other things. I'll cover the rest separately. I do appreciate your advice as you have been right all along. You just happen to have more resources available to you than I have to me. You have all the "resources" available to you that I have, except for experience and intuation (born from that experience, as well as specialized training). Nothing I have quoted or provided for you came from anywhere that is not readilly available to you - at your keyboard - if you have half a clue where to look and how to find it. Along with close to 3 decades of working in the automotive trade I have close to another 3 decades working in information technology The secret is knowing fly**** from pepper. Some of that comes from experience. Some of it comes from "inate intelligence" and "aptitude" which some are born with, and some are totally devoid of - no matter HOW much education they get. |
#48
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:44 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:29 -0800 (PST), wrote: Sigh. It's just sad. if they all work ok it's not sad, it's a nonissue I think you hit the reluctant nail on the head! The only way this can make sense is if all brake pads work. Period. Because if people were getting into accidents due to bad brake pads, someone would step in and stop that (we hope). Notice even the police report, which is the only scientific study we have, never said any pad was better or worse - they just required more foot pounds or fewer foot pounds of pedal force for the same deceleration value. They never said anything about not being able to decelerate at the desired deceleration value. The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material - it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes. If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance (and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third application - they are pretty crappy brakes. If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - - So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms of performance. No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point. The different brake PAD materials are mission specific. A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands down. Every time. A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop better on a cold stop than a ceramic. Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad. No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a $20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout. Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn good indicator. Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse. What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular, work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes. When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad material into the finish of the rotor.. The stopping power of the brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal. How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything. If you stop hard and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point - UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application. A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes "scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but sometimes "real" "warped rotor". Inferior brake friction material performs more poorly in these ways than premium materials. A worn, glazed, or grooved rotor will not "bed in" reliably because the surface will heat and cool unevenly - with uneven pressure across the brake surface - So brake friction material quality AND the installation affect brake performance. Also, the brake mounting hardware - the shims and springs either provided with the new pads, purchased separately, or salvaged from the prior installation (whether OEM or aftermarket or totally missing) alsohave effects on the performance (and life) of the brakes. Heat transfer, Vibration, and freedon to move in the caliper, are all effected by the quality and presence of the proper mounting hardware - which is designed/modified by the pad manufacturer to matvch the characteristics and requirements of their particular pad and friction material - which is why "premium"brake kits are supplied with the proper hardware to install the brakes for their best performance. All this assumes that you can't afford to run your own scientific tests, because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you can't do. More paranoid bull****. For actual racing, those guys can spend the actual immense time comparing two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability. Total bull****. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the best and worst in the test is VERY significant. What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless) Sigh. It's sad. I didn't want to conclude that. I really didn't. But it is what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bull**** and fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad, then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad. WRONG. And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS. |
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST), wrote: That's retail. That's why I say those who say "you get what you pay for" are misguided because a $157 pad "might" be just as good or bad as a $20 pad, where I can prove this statement for the $300 20W Panasonic speakers in a Toyota since I know the specs on the $50 speakers at Crutchfields. You still have not learned ANYTHING????? The specs on speakers are known to be some of the best fiction ever written, followed only by the specs on consumer stereo equipment. Even at Crutchfields, you can get a good $50 speaker or a less-good $50 speaker, and the price is exactly the same. So if someone tells me "you get what you pay for", they'll get the same rant from me that everyone loves to pick products off a number line, but the real number line is a bunch of specs, and not a simple price. You "only" get what you pay for - and then only if you are both lucky and astute. You SELDOM get more than what you pay for You can take THAT to the bank. That's retail for you! ![]() And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake shoes for +AKM-1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why? Because someone was unloading something they didn't need, at a price to get it off their shelves - and your requirements were not severe enough to require anything better. I've also been "lucky" enough to pick up some real "bargoons" by being at the right place at the right time. I often buy what no-one wants any more - nobody inOntario wanted a 1972 Pontiac Firenza in 1974 or 1975 - so I gor an almost pristine Vauxhaul Viva HC Magnum coupe for $75 - and it served me well for a number of years before I sold it to a friend of my wife, who needed a car and had no money for something "good" - and she drove it another 7 years untill it required a part that was not readily available or available at a decent cost . I got "more than my money's worth" - I got "more than I paid for". The same with my current pickup truck which I bought for $1500 because nobody wanted a meticulously maintained 16 year old ford Ranger with over 300,000km on it. It's been virtually trouble free for 6 years - I've spent about $1500 on repairs over more than 50,000km, and all indications areI'll get a few more years out of it. I got more than my money's worth. In both cases It was because I new the "value" of what I was buying better than both the seller and other potential buyers. You are FAR more likely to get less than you paid for - particularly when buying any commodity new at retail - where you are SIGNIFICANTLY less likely to get more than you pay for. Price is not an accurate predictor of quality, but with a few other often obvious clues, it is a pretty reliable indicator. I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality. It is, as I have stated, an indicator, but not a predictor or guarantee of quality. No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though they're the same parts you get in the shops. No they are not - and in MANY places it is illegal to sell used brake parts and used exhaust/emission parts. I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard, which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it. Sometimes a car ends up in a scrapyard with lots of brand new parts on it. The owner puts $3000 into making it safe to drive - new brakes, suspension,and tires - the either has it hit, or blows a motor or transmission, and decides not to keep it and repair it - or they spend all kinds of money fixing it up - making it into their ":boy racer's wet dream" and then cannot get it to pass smog - and it ends up in the scrapyard with LOTS of good and/or expensive parts on it. That said - as a matter of principal - unless no other adequate source of brake parts was available, I'd be looking elsewhere - first. Have I used "used" brake parts in the past?? Yes. I put a complete used rear axle from a '63 Belvedere into my '53 Coronet - brakes and all - as an upgrade when the originals failed and OEM parts were not readilly available, and the old design was less than optimal. ANd I put used parts on my '49 VW in Livingstone Zambia. Where was I going to get new parts??????? On a Sunday afternoon half way between Choima and Macha - (look it up on Google Earth - and keep in mind this was 44 years ago - - - - . What's the difference between my concept of a junkyard (which contains entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard? Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads? if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision. Not necessarilly. There is no other logical conclusion to be made, given the information we have. Price is NOT the determinant of a good or bad brake pad. Perhaps not of a good one, but quite often of an inferior one The sad thing is that there is no determinant we can make that will hold true other than there is no difference practically that you can do anything about. again, bushels of bovine excrement. I'm NOT saying they are all the same. I'm saying we consumers can't tell by having two of them in our hand or having two of them sold online. And why do you, like so many "millenials" (I'm aking an assumption here from significant evidence) INSIST on buying everything on-line???? Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating of oak is? Obviously not sufficientfor a 3 ton vehicle going 100MPH - and definitely not as good after a long downhill stop - -- but likely, at low speeds - al ot better than you suspect!!! Or rubber in bicycle brakes. There is SIGNIFICANT difference between different compounds of "rubber" pads for rim brakes - includingin their stopping power and their destructive effect on rims - some better for chromed rims, and others for Alloy rims - some working better for side-pull, and others for center pull (different amounts of pressure available) |
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote: see http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full...87814016647300 for an extensive explanation of friction materials from an engineering pwerspective - the english isn't particularly good but LOTS of information |
#51
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote: More of "all you ever wanted to know about friction materials" but were afraid to ask - - - http://www.sae.org/events/bce/tutorial-bahadur.pdf and http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/u...-formulations/ and http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4442/4/1/5/htm and http://www.marathonbrake.com/product...pplication/ub/ and https://info.ornl.gov/sites/publicat...s/Pub57043.pdf and a whole lot more!!!!!!!!!!! |
#52
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:09:47 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote: see http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full...87814016647300 for an extensive explanation of friction materials from an engineering pwerspective - the english isn't particularly good but LOTS of information And here is some more real good information on brake pad materials - on a lower level - for the non-engineers out there. |
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Clare Snyder posted for all of us...
May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Also heat CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry) One reason Chrysler was using composite pistons for several years in the early no-asbestos days (until they found the pistons swelled and stuck - - - ) They used to be a bitch to get out. To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were NO brakes. I got the police shoes because I was all into it. What a difference! When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful. They are designed and built to endure punishment. Try and go to the dealer and get the model, good luck with that. Watch what happens on one of the police shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end. The actors can't make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training* -- Tekkie |
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#55
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:02:37 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote: The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material - it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes. Exactly. You've been right all along while I was hoping beyond hope that there is an intelligent way to select a good/better/best brake pad. You were right. I was wrong. If you have two pads in your hands, or two on the net, you can't make an intelligent choice between them, other than to know if they're the same or not, and to know who made them, and to know what their cold and hot friction coefficients are. That's it. Each pad can be different - but you have no way of knowing that from the pad itself. If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance (and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third application - they are pretty crappy brakes. Nobody complained about fade in that one report we have, did they? I don't think we have any better "fade" test than the Chase value for hot friction (which was E or F depending on the pads tested). So, while fade is important - it's a useless criteria since we have no way of knowing the fade. It's just silly to bring up all the things that *can* happen if you have no way of choosing between them when the pads are in your very hands. I don't disagree with you that two pads can be vastly different, but you have no way of knowing anything other than their tested friction, their manufacturer, and whether two pads are exactly the same material. That's all you've got since brands are almost meaningless (e.g., PBR, Axxis and Metalmasters are the same company) and semi-metallic/metalic/ceramic marketing is even more meaningless. If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - - All well and good, but it's like predicting that a baby will become the president of the United States. No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point. The different brake PAD materials are mission specific. A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands down. Every time. Let's just agree to disagree since you don't seem to realize what I know from talking to the Axxis marketing guy that the word 'ceramic' is a bull**** marketing term. Do you think I don't call these marketing guys up? Do I seem like someone who doesn't ask pointed questions? Ceramic is complete and total marketing bull****. The marketing guy told me himself. (Yes, I see the difficulty of position that puts me in.) A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop better on a cold stop than a ceramic. Let's agree to disagree. You believe in marketing. I don't. I believe in specifications. No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a $20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout. Let's agree to disagree. You think price has some impact on performance. I will prove to you that I can show exact same products with different branding but the exact same price. Everyone loves a number-line decision, whether it's good/better/best of metallic/semi-metallic/ceramic or $10/$20/$30 or 3-year/4-year-/5-year warranty, but none of that indicates a better or worse object. Only specifications do, and we just don't know much about the spec other than who made the pad, the code for the exact formulation, and the friction. Everything else is bull****. Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn good indicator. Price is an indicator of demand only. Demand is influenced by a ****load of factors. You know that. I know that. Let's not argue it. That's what Economics 101 was for, and I already took that and passed it. Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse. If you truly know the "hardness", then of course it matters. But you have no way of knowing the hardness. Do you? What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular, work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes. I think I do understand how disc brakes work, but we can discuss what you think I don't understand. What I know is that your energy of movement has to be converted into something else, most notably heat. Lots and lots of heat. When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad material into the finish of the rotor.. Yup. Pad deposition. Something about covalent bonds making and breaking under the heat of braking, where the breaking of the bonds elicits heat. It gets complex HOW the heat is generated (it's not just 'friction'), but the end result is heat. Lots and lots of heat. The stopping power of the brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal. The Ameca engineer already explained the burnished pads that the Michegan study used where he said it was to get rid of the volatile gases that come out of the first few heat cycles. How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything. Yup. We all know how to property bed our brakes. I doubt many shops do it though, because it requires a lot of room and a few very hard almost stops where, if there is traffic, it ain't easy to do. I'll wager that few, if any, shops properly bed the pads. But you'd have that experience because I've never been to a mechanic. If you stop hard and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point - UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application. NEVER, and I mean NEVER leave your foot on the pedal after a hard stop! Everyone knows this, so I know you know this. It's the worst thing you can do, unless you love to have judder every few thousand miles as that ped deposition collects more pad over time. I never understood why, but once a pad print, always a pad print. And it only gets worse. Unless you re-bed the brakes - which everyone knows - so you're preaching to the choir on even brake pad deposition techniques. A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes "scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but sometimes "real" "warped rotor". Yes. But. I have no good way of knowing a quality pad from a not quality pad. So it's moot. It's like me picking out the best students in a class based on whether they wear glasses or not. Total bull****. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the best and worst in the test is VERY significant. It's significant in one thing. Pedal pressure. If pedal pressure is your gig - then it's significant. If pedal pressure isn't your gig, then it's not significant. The pedal pressure changed about 100%, from roughly less than ten foot pounds to less than twenty foot pounds in the lower-speed tests for example. What's 10 foot pounds? Dunno when it's pressing on a pedal, but if that's important, then you have to buy a police cruiser and put those pads on it - because it doesn't tell you anything about your car unless it's a police cruiser. What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless) Yup. We agree. There is no useful data other than the AMECA code and even that isn't meant for the consumer. And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS. Knowledge is dangerous. Logic is dangerous. Thinking is dangerous. Having someone else do all that for you, is dangerous. The mechanic doesn't give a **** about you or your brake pads. All the mechanic cares about is your money, and getting as much of that as possible, in the least time possible, so he'll skip steps like you can't believe. I'm on car forums where there are complaints galore about mechanics skipping half the steps in anything because they don't give a **** about anything but money. The only way to do it right is to do it yourself, is my motto. You can disagree (and you almost certainly will), but you can't disagree that I'm trying to make an intelligent decision on which brake shoes to buy, and that I probably know them as well as any mechanic who *thinks* he knows them - but he doesn't - because he can't. Nobody can but the guy who submitted them for their Chase test. |
#56
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:01:47 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote: To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were NO brakes. I've never experienced such fade in my life, and I drive a performance car, where I've driven down many a long hill. I don't know why I have never experienced brake fade, but I know it exists. I just have never felt it. But I've never put in less than FF pads either. That may or may not be related - we can't tell. It's just a datum. I got the police shoes because I was all into it. What's a "police shoe"? The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only. What a difference! If there was a difference, it's hard to tell because nobody (except the police in Michigan it seems) tests *new* pads against *new* pads (after burnishing). You probably didn't as nobody does. You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car. That's the problem with tiny experiments of a single datapoint. When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful. What the heck is a "pursuit certified vehicle"? I drove an EMT vehicle many times. It drove like a truck. They are designed and built to endure punishment. Like any performance vehicle on the road today? Try and go to the dealer and get the model, good luck with that. Don't even know what it is. Is it a souped up police cruiser? Watch what happens on one of the police shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end. That's not a good scientific test. The actors can't make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training* I have been trained to drive an ambulance. Know what they taught me? a. Defensive driving b. Noise pollution is bad c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even ambulances) I think in some states emergency vehicles *are* allowed to break the law, but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking the law, the onus is on you. |
#57
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:23:01 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote: Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the effect of reduced pad contact That makes sense that the outgassing of pad A can be vastly different than that of pad B, and, in fact, they "burnished" the pads in the police test to minimize the initial presumed-far-greater effect of that as the adhesives heated up for the first time and vented gases. May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Occam's Razor logic tells us that only one of 2 things is happening: a. There is a huge as-yet-unnamed second-order effect, or, b. There is a combination that results in a huge second-order effect. That there is a huge second-order effect (after friction), there can be no logical doubt. But what is the 2nd-order effect's cause and can we test for it? Also heat CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry). Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct. 1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead. 2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bull**** I know there are no laws that differentiate between metal, ceramic, and semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bull**** only they said it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did. Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec of iron makes it semi-metallic. I posit marketing came up with these wonderful good/better/best number-line decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality specifications. Where's Jeff Liebermann when you need him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![]() |
#58
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST),
Terry Schwartz wrote: Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad...... I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum of logic. These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and "semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic). You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction), and that's fine. You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too. You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria: a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits. b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump) c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump) I'm not like you. I like to *understand* that which I buy. That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one line you wrote. I like to make intelligent buying decisions. You apparently don't care to - and that's fine. |
#59
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote: Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they are harsher on rotors and noisier) Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics, but are not as effective when cold as metallics. Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads - leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials. Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are marketing bull**** (he used nicer terms than that). Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers? You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous materials with a magnet. Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I look them up online! ![]() Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test the old shoes and pads when I take them off. Good idea if it works. Can others concur it works? The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier "boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota. The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which companies that is, so I don't know what you know. He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they fit to all cars. You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever technology meets your desires. That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have. It's just not. And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine, for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist. SO I'm ****ed. I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts. Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular retainers. Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks. You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right. Specifications are not bull****. Marketing spin is bull****. The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all "science" is). The science is only in the hands of the formulators. Nobody else has access to that science. When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar. This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices! They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were. No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of ignorance. I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine. But I don't. I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them. WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc? That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes. They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond, etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket and OEM REplacement . In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc. But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM. His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad. He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours, which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every* brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material. Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a field totally outside your reralm. I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on specifications. I just hate it. And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another. That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison. And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically. So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're blind. When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting. I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car. They're all the same to me. The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more. The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you. And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have oversimplified that last statement A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind resistance due to size. Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers. But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it. So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that it woudl be the case. You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air, but the same in a vacuum. We all know that. My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong. Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong. Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials....... There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal speeds under normal conditions. - For a while. Yup. That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor. |
#60
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:28 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote: On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:01:47 -0500, Tekkie+AK4- wrote: To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were NO brakes. I've never experienced such fade in my life, and I drive a performance car, where I've driven down many a long hill. I don't know why I have never experienced brake fade, but I know it exists. I just have never felt it. But I've never put in less than FF pads either. That may or may not be related - we can't tell. It's just a datum. I got the police shoes because I was all into it. What's a "police shoe"? The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only. The shoes they tested were premium and heavy duty (all of the FF and FG were "heavy duty" pads. On Persuit rated vehicles they oftern also have larger rotors and drums - as well as different tires, and even different RIMS to allow bwtter brake cooling. Never wondered why cruisers have "dog dish" hub caps instead of full wheel covers??? To allow the brakes to "breath" better. What a difference! If there was a difference, it's hard to tell because nobody (except the police in Michigan it seems) tests *new* pads against *new* pads (after burnishing). You probably didn't as nobody does. You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car. I can say without reservation that the "police duty" and severe duty brakes were MUCH better at high speeds than standard brakes (and sometimes not nearly as good when cold/low speed) 1 1966 Dodge Polara Pursuit Special I drove for a short time went like a scalded cat, and stopped like you had jammed a stick into a hole in the pavement. That's the problem with tiny experiments of a single datapoint. When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful. What the heck is a "pursuit certified vehicle"? I drove an EMT vehicle many times. It drove like a truck. They are designed and built to endure punishment. Like any performance vehicle on the road today? Try and go to the dealer and get the model, good luck with that. Don't even know what it is. Is it a souped up police cruiser? Yes. Watch what happens on one of the police shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end. That's not a good scientific test. The actors can't make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training* I have been trained to drive an ambulance. Know what they taught me? a. Defensive driving b. Noise pollution is bad c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even ambulances) I think in some states emergency vehicles *are* allowed to break the law, but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking the law, the onus is on you. Todays persuit special vehicles are often the big ecoboost engine on fords, and Hemis on Chargers. Often with a "special tune" that raises the rev limiter setting and reprograms the tranny shift points - as well as having bigger rads, bigger alternators, honking big sway bars and super-duty shocks and springs. |
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On 1/15/18 8:28 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
[ Lot's of stupid repetitive **** deleted ] On the rare occasions I do my own brakes, I use either NAPA, Warner or OEM parts. Not whatever is cheapest at Auto Zone, JC Whitney or Pep Boys. The rest of the time I just take the vehicle to a reputable mechanic and tell him what I want. It gets done right. All your blathering is like arguing with your doctor, "But I read on Facebook (or WebMD)." -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
#62
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:28 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote: On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:23:01 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote: Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the effect of reduced pad contact That makes sense that the outgassing of pad A can be vastly different than that of pad B, and, in fact, they "burnished" the pads in the police test to minimize the initial presumed-far-greater effect of that as the adhesives heated up for the first time and vented gases. May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Occam's Razor logic tells us that only one of 2 things is happening: a. There is a huge as-yet-unnamed second-order effect, or, b. There is a combination that results in a huge second-order effect. That there is a huge second-order effect (after friction), there can be no logical doubt. But what is the 2nd-order effect's cause and can we test for it? Also heat CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry). Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct. 1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead. 2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bull**** Most definitely is NOT marketing Bull****. It is solid engineering I know there are no laws that differentiate between metal, ceramic, and semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bull**** only they said it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did. You speak mandarin, do you? There may not be "legal" definitions, but there are industry accepted definitions - and I've sent you numerous referencesthat spell them out pretty clearly. Yes, there are "hybrids" that sort of bridge the gap - but MOST of them are identified as such. Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec of iron makes it semi-metallic. Most definirely not. There is a small percentage of metal even in organic pads, and the metal does not need to be iron. And "ceramic" has nothing to do with "dust". A ceramic is a vitified clay base which may or may not have metals also included. A ceramic does not use phenol;ic binders. Again - READ the stuff I posted for you. I posit marketing came up with these wonderful good/better/best number-line decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality specifications. You are being a paranoid simleton. Where's Jeff Liebermann when you need him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![]() |
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:29 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote: On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST), Terry Schwartz wrote: Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad...... I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum of logic. These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and "semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic). You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction), and that's fine. You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too. And YOU think YOU are smart. (nobody else does - sorry to break your bubble) You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria: a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits. b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump) c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump) and if you are SMART you buy the type of pad that matches yourdriving requirements - which for most commuters is a standard organic pad, for heavy duty use, a semi metallioc, and for high speed light duty, generally a ceramic. I'm not like you. I like to *understand* that which I buy. And yet you most certainly do NOT when it comes to brakes. You are totally clueless and uneducatable That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one line you wrote. I like to make intelligent buying decisions. You apparently don't care to - and that's fine. and you seem to be totally incapable of it. |
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On 16/01/2018 1:48 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 1/15/18 8:28 PM, Mad Roger wrote: Β* [ Lot's of stupid repetitive **** deleted ] On the rare occasions I do my own brakes, I use either NAPA, Warner or OEM parts. Not whatever is cheapest at Auto Zone, JC Whitney or Pep Boys. The rest of the time I just take the vehicle to a reputable mechanic and tell him what I want. It gets done right. All your blathering is like arguing with your doctor, "But I read on Facebook (or WebMD)." May the Lord save us from those who *think* they know! -- Xeno |
#65
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On 16/01/2018 1:58 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:29 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger wrote: On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST), Terry Schwartz wrote: Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad...... I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum of logic. These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and "semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic). You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction), and that's fine. You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too. And YOU think YOU are smart. (nobody else does - sorry to break your bubble) I caught on to that very early in the piece. That's why I deduced that discussion with mad roger was not a fruitful use of my time. As you have discovered. You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria: a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits. b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump) c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump) and if you are SMART you buy the type of pad that matches yourdriving requirements - which for most commuters is a standard organic pad, for heavy duty use, a semi metallioc, and for high speed light duty, generally a ceramic. I'm not like you. I like to *understand* that which I buy. And yet you most certainly do NOT when it comes to brakes. You are totally clueless and uneducatable Amen to that! Just wants to argue the toss, that is all. That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one line you wrote. I like to make intelligent buying decisions. You apparently don't care to - and that's fine. and you seem to be totally incapable of it. He is. -- Xeno |
#66
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:28:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote: On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote: Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they are harsher on rotors and noisier) Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics, but are not as effective when cold as metallics. Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads - leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials. Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are marketing bull**** (he used nicer terms than that). from the PBR brake site : PBR Axxis Metal Master Brake Pads, Ultimate Brake Pads, and Deluxe Brake Pads Note: The FMP Group Australia Pty. Ltd., is the manufacturer of Axxis and PBR brand brake pads; these pads are identical. Axxis Ultimate Brake Pads Ultimate The PBR Axxis Ultimate brake pads feature a special Kevlar and ceramic-strengthened formula with a high co-efficient of friction and excellent high temperature wear and fade resistance. Designed for ultra-high performance driving and hard-braking applications, PBR Axxis Ultimate pad users will benefit with extreme stopping power and high resistance to brake fade at high temperatures, meaning the decrease in friction over repeated heavy duty stops, as the temperature increases, is minimal. PBR Axxis Ultimate pads boast a maximum continuous working temperature of 550° C (1022° F degrees). Consistent throughout its operating temperature range, youll get dependable, predictable stops time after time while maintaining a solid pedal feel. Axxis Metal Master Metal Master Metal Master: Non-asbestos, semi-metallic compound provides the highest fade resistance among leading semi-met brake pads. They deliver proven longer pad and rotor life, with low rotor scoring and quiet braking. Designed for applications requiring the highest performance Premium quality, non-asbestos, semi-metallic formula Unique formula offers reduced brake dust, fade and squeal Provides the ultimate stopping power under all conditions Virtually eliminates squeal and dust Improved cold effectiveness Improved pad life Axxis Deluxe Deluxe Exclusive OE equivalent organic compound provides outstanding stopping power with very low fade. Extremely quiet with proven long pad and rotor life and low rotor scoring. Provides measurably longer life and has extreme resistance to heat while delivering consistent, smooth braking performance. Formulated from the latest premium quality, organic materials Low dust, low squeal Delivers quality braking performance Rotor friendly Smooth stopping power Low dust and squeal Extended pad life Get yourself a set of PBR Axxis Ultimate, Metal Master, or Deluxe pads today! Brake pads! High Performance Brake Pads! Theres nothing better for braking performance than a good brake pad. So PBR makes 3 differentlines of brakes. One is sold as AXXIS Ultimate, oneas Axxis Metal Master, and one as Axxis Deluxe. (Also sold underthe PBR brand) 3 totally different pads for diufferent use - all spelled out on the PBR brake products web site. If you spoke to a PBR marketing person you spoke to an idiot who doesn't know their product line, and knows even less about brakes. What you got from HIM WAS marketing bull****. Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers? Whoever you called gave you VERY bad information. You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous materials with a magnet. Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I look them up online! ![]() And you are still stupid enough to think you have to buy online -- I just cannot figure you idiots out. Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test the old shoes and pads when I take them off. But metallics are not NECESSARILLY magnetic - because they can be copper or brass - and even ceramics can have some metal in them - as can some organics. You just DON"T GET IT. Good idea if it works. Can others concur it works? The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier "boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota. The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which companies that is, so I don't know what you know. Get used to it. He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they fit to all cars. Which is pure bull;**** when talking about tiuer one aftermarket suppliers (which are also OEM suppliers in most cases) You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever technology meets your desires. That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have. It's just not. And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine, for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist. I do NOT buy on a "number line" - I buy by spec. I buy organic, semi metallic, or ceramic depending on what brake characteristics I need and what I'm willing to pay. SO I'm ****ed. You've done it to yourself. I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts. Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular retainers. You keep going between pads and shoes. There is so much difference - hardly oranges to oranges - barely apples to oranges - more like rutabagas to apples. Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks. You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right. Specifications are not bull****. Marketing spin is bull****. ANd I don't look at "marketing spin" I look at "real" specifications. What KIND of brake material is it? Knowing the KIND of material I can pretty accurately deduce the basic qualities of the brake product - and knowing the manufacturer AND the composition, I can make a pretty good deduction as to quality and suitability for my purpose. Without any "number line" or "friction rating" The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all "science" is). The science is only in the hands of the formulators. Nobody else has access to that science. When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar. This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices! They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were. No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of ignorance. I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine. But I don't. I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them. And where do you get the idea I trust "marketing"????? WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc? That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes. No, for the Toyota you buy Akebono brake shoes - the aftermarket supplier that also produces the OEM brakes for a large percentage of Toyota vehicles (Toyota generally "dual sources" all major parts that the source from outside, like brakes, shoicks, lenses, bulbs, and spark plugs. If one supplier has a problem they cut them off until the problem is solved. (for spark plugs it was always either Nipon Denso or NGK,, foir many parts like AC it was Aisin or Denso. The MAJOR Tier one aftermarket suppliers are also major OEM suppliers. TRW, Walker,Monroe, Delphi, and a host of other manufacturers design and build all kinds of parts for the OEM market - as well as the aftermarket. They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond, etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket and OEM REplacement . In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc. That will be ONE of their brake suppliers. But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM. His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad. He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours, which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every* brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material. Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a field totally outside your reralm. I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on specifications. I just hate it. And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another. That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison. And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically. So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're blind. When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting. I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car. They're all the same to me. Then what are yopu fussing about???????? The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more. The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you. And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have oversimplified that last statement A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind resistance due to size. Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers. But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it. So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that it woudl be the case. You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air, but the same in a vacuum. We all know that. My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong. Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong. Not if their "intuition" is "educated" Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials....... ANd you know NOTHING about octane and detonation - I'd be willing to bet significantly on that one. (Few people do - the myths on that subject are - well - "mythical". Don't get started on that one unless you want to get TOTALLY buried...... There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal speeds under normal conditions. - For a while. Yup. That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor. Why use Ocam's razor - don't you have your own???? Seriously - you are making more assumtions than I am - therefore the chances of your conclusions being correct are significantly less than mine. Not quite sure you fully understand "Ockham's Razor" either (also known as Occams razor - not Ocams) - a theory first postulated by a 14th century mathemetician and Franciscan Friar by the name of William of Ockham as part of his "unified field theory" His principal is simply "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily." It has been expanded on by many others includingsuch natables as Einstein Like any sharp instrument -Ockhams razor should not be weilded blindly - - - - |
#67
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:09:50 +0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote: On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:02:37 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote: The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material - it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes. Exactly. You've been right all along while I was hoping beyond hope that there is an intelligent way to select a good/better/best brake pad. You were right. I was wrong. If you have two pads in your hands, or two on the net, you can't make an intelligent choice between them, other than to know if they're the same or not, and to know who made them, and to know what their cold and hot friction coefficients are. If I know my application jolly right I can That's it. Each pad can be different - but you have no way of knowing that from the pad itself. If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance (and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third application - they are pretty crappy brakes. Nobody complained about fade in that one report we have, did they? I don't think we have any better "fade" test than the Chase value for hot friction (which was E or F depending on the pads tested). You obviously did not read and absorb the details of the michigan test. All the brake fade data is clearly there if you know how to read the report. So, while fade is important - it's a useless criteria since we have no way of knowing the fade. i CAN TELL YOU which brake pad is going to fade the worst, just knowing the COMPOSITION of the pad - organic, semi-metallic, or ceramic - particularly between products from the same manufacturer. WHos ceramic is beter than whos is a different story - -0 - It's just silly to bring up all the things that *can* happen if you have no way of choosing between them when the pads are in your very hands. I don't disagree with you that two pads can be vastly different, but you have no way of knowing anything other than their tested friction, their manufacturer, and whether two pads are exactly the same material. I can know who made them and what market theyn are aimed at - which gives me a lot more information than their 2 letter friction rating. That's all you've got since brands are almost meaningless (e.g., PBR, Axxis and Metalmasters are the same company) and semi-metallic/metalic/ceramic marketing is even more meaningless. You are a total MORON AXXIS and PBR ARE the same company, but a PBR or AXXIS Metalmaster is NOT the same as a PBR or AXXIS Delux or Advanced Ceramic - but PBR/AXXIS has more marketing BS than many companies. If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - - All well and good, but it's like predicting that a baby will become the president of the United States. No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point. The different brake PAD materials are mission specific. A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands down. Every time. Let's just agree to disagree since you don't seem to realize what I know from talking to the Axxis marketing guy that the word 'ceramic' is a bull**** marketing term. well, I know from dealing with brake application engineers and my studies that "marketing guys" are generally like a dirty diaper. Do you think I don't call these marketing guys up? Do I seem like someone who doesn't ask pointed questions? You seam like someone who doesan't know the questions to ask, doesn't know when he's being snowed, and is so obvious that the marketing guys know they can snow you and you won't know the difference. When you need technical information you don't ask marketing - you ask engineering - and you don't go in like a smartass - they can see right through you. Ceramic is complete and total marketing bull****. The marketing guy told me himself. The marketing guy doesn't know **** from shinola (Yes, I see the difficulty of position that puts me in.) A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop better on a cold stop than a ceramic. Let's agree to disagree. You believe in marketing. I don't. I believe in specifications. No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a $20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout. Let's agree to disagree. I'll agree to allow you to remain eternally clueless since you are totally unteachable. You think price has some impact on performance. I will prove to you that I can show exact same products with different branding but the exact same price. Just like a dirty diaper. AXXIS delux pads are the same as PBR delux pads, but are NOT the same as AXXIS or PBR Metalmasters - and "Metalmaster" is not a company or resller - it is a "model" or "type" iof pad marketted by AXXIS , a devision of PBR PLC in Australia. Everyone loves a number-line decision, whether it's good/better/best of metallic/semi-metallic/ceramic or $10/$20/$30 or 3-year/4-year-/5-year warranty, but none of that indicates a better or worse object. A warranty is an insurance policy - not an indicator of quality. How else do you explain a 10year warranty on the ****tiest cars to come out of Japan - the Misu****ty. They can't sell their crap without a 10year warranty - and when the warranty is expired you can't sell one - period. Only specifications do, and we just don't know much about the spec other than who made the pad, the code for the exact formulation, and the friction. Everything else is bull****. Yad yada yada--------- Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn good indicator. Price is an indicator of demand only. Demand is influenced by a ****load of factors. You know that. I know that. Let's not argue it. That's what Economics 101 was for, and I already took that and passed it. Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse. If you truly know the "hardness", then of course it matters. But you have no way of knowing the hardness. Do you? Sure I do What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular, work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes. I think I do understand how disc brakes work, but we can discuss what you think I don't understand. What I know is that your energy of movement has to be converted into something else, most notably heat. Lots and lots of heat. When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad material into the finish of the rotor.. Yup. Pad deposition. Something about covalent bonds making and breaking under the heat of braking, where the breaking of the bonds elicits heat. It gets complex HOW the heat is generated (it's not just 'friction'), but the end result is heat. Lots and lots of heat. The stopping power of the brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal. The Ameca engineer already explained the burnished pads that the Michegan study used where he said it was to get rid of the volatile gases that come out of the first few heat cycles. Well, he was WRONG. How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything. Yup. We all know how to property bed our brakes. I doubt many shops do it though, because it requires a lot of room and a few very hard almost stops where, if there is traffic, it ain't easy to do. I'll wager that few, if any, shops properly bed the pads. But you'd have that experience because I've never been to a mechanic. If you stop hard and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point - UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application. NEVER, and I mean NEVER leave your foot on the pedal after a hard stop! Everyone knows this, so I know you know this. Most certainly NOT everybody knows it. It's the worst thing you can do, unless you love to have judder every few thousand miles as that ped deposition collects more pad over time. I never understood why, but once a pad print, always a pad print. And it only gets worse. Not neccesarily - If caught on time it is almost always reversible Unless you re-bed the brakes - which everyone knows - so you're preaching to the choir on even brake pad deposition techniques. A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes "scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but sometimes "real" "warped rotor". Yes. But. I have no good way of knowing a quality pad from a not quality pad. So it's moot. You are a thickskulled and stubborn person - totally unteachable It's like me picking out the best students in a class based on whether they wear glasses or not. Total bull****. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the best and worst in the test is VERY significant. It's significant in one thing. Pedal pressure. If pedal pressure is your gig - then it's significant. If pedal pressure isn't your gig, then it's not significant. The pedal pressure changed about 100%, from roughly less than ten foot pounds to less than twenty foot pounds in the lower-speed tests for example. What's 10 foot pounds? Dunno when it's pressing on a pedal, but if that's important, then you have to buy a police cruiser and put those pads on it - because it doesn't tell you anything about your car unless it's a police cruiser. What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless) Yup. We agree. There is no useful data other than the AMECA code and even that isn't meant for the consumer. And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS. Knowledge is dangerous. Logic is dangerous. Thinking is dangerous. Having someone else do all that for you, is dangerous. The mechanic doesn't give a **** about you or your brake pads. WRONG - his livelihhod depends on it All the mechanic cares about is your money, and getting as much of that as possible, in the least time possible, so he'll skip steps like you can't believe. Wrong. As a professional mechanic of long standing, with an EXCELLENT reputation, I take that as a total affrront I'm on car forums where there are complaints galore about mechanics skipping half the steps in anything because they don't give a **** about anything but money. I've seen the same forums - and most of the compainers are just as dumb as you are. The only way to do it right is to do it yourself, is my motto. You are free to do it yourself on your own car - although I don't plan on being anywhere near you - but you should NOT be doing repairs on other peoples vehicles - you are untrained, unauthorized, and uninsured. Anyone letting you work on their vehicles should be made aware of that, and the dangers implied. Ignorance is no excuse. You can disagree (and you almost certainly will), but you can't disagree that I'm trying to make an intelligent decision on which brake shoes to buy, and that I probably know them as well as any mechanic who *thinks* he knows them - but he doesn't - because he can't. Well, you would be wrong. Nobody can but the guy who submitted them for their Chase test. Wrong again. PLONK |
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Wow -- you sure know a lot about me based on my one line response.
You must believe you are a frickin' genius. THAT is so sad. But you are right on one point. You're not like me. I'm so glad. |
#69
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On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 8:05:42 AM UTC-5, Terry Schwartz wrote:
Wow -- you sure know a lot about me based on my one line response. You must believe you are a frickin' genius. THAT is so sad. But you are right on one point. You're not like me. I'm so glad. Consider the analogy of mud-wrestling with a pig. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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#71
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 05:05:37 -0800 (PST),
Terry Schwartz wrote: Wow -- you sure know a lot about me based on my one line response. You must believe you are a frickin' genius. THAT is so sad. But you are right on one point. You're not like me. I'm so glad. What I know is that you've added zero on-topic technical value. What I also know is that you *can't* add on-topic technical value. Just watch. |
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:31:56 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote: a whole lot more!!!!!!!!!!! I'm reading them as soon as I post this to let you know that... Thanks for always posting on-topic technical value. |
#73
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"On topic" would be electronics related. I've spent a lifetime in electronics. That is a field in which I do have technical expertise. Brakes are NOT on topic. Period. Perhaps you will find more willing foil in another group.
I've also spent 30+ years of my career engineering things with engines, wheels (2, 3, and 4), brakes, so yes, I have expertise in all that as well. Vehicles that go 4 mph and vehicles that go 140 mph. But it's fun watching you make an ass of yourself. So yes, I am drawn to this thread, it's like watching a train wreck or a plane crash. I'm done engaging you, feel free to have the last snipe, as you seem to need to do. It's a classic sign of a petty, insecure mind. |
#74
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On 1/16/18 8:35 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
What I know is that you've added zero on-topic technical value. What I also know is that you*can't* add on-topic technical value. Just watch. Says he who does nothing but post off topic **** endlessly -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
#75
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On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 9:35:55 AM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:
Please note the on-topic, technical edits. Done for accuracy. What I know is that -I-'ve added zero on-topic technical value. What I also know is that -I- *can't* add on-topic technical value. Just watch. Yes, we have. And, so sorry Jimmy, despite all the manure you have spread, there is no pony. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA The Pony Joke. The joke concerns twin boys of five or six. Worried that the boys had developed extreme personalities one was a total pessimist, the other a total optimist their parents took them to a psychiatrist. First the psychiatrist treated the pessimist. Trying to brighten his outlook, the psychiatrist took him to a room piled to the ceiling with brand-new toys. But instead of yelping with delight, the little boy burst into tears. 'What's the matter?' the psychiatrist asked, baffled. 'Don't you want to play with any of the toys?' 'Yes,' the little boy bawled, 'but if I did I'd only break them.' Next the psychiatrist treated the optimist. Trying to dampen his out look, the psychiatrist took him to a room piled to the ceiling with horse manure. But instead of wrinkling his nose in disgust, the optimist emitted just the yelp of delight the psychiatrist had been hoping to hear from his brother, the pessimist. Then he clambered to the top of the pile, dropped to his knees, and began gleefully digging out scoop after scoop with his bare hands. 'What do you think you're doing?' the psychiatrist asked, just as baffled by the optimist as he had been by the pessimist. 'With all this manure,' the little boy replied, beaming, 'there must be a pony in here somewhere!' |
#76
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#77
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On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 10:25:47 AM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
Just a horse's ass. What a grave insult to the Equine community! Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA All of us, if we are of reflective habit, like and admire men whose fundamental beliefs differ radically from our own. But when a candidate for public office faces the voters he does not face men of sense; he faces a mob of men whose chief distinguishing mark is the fact that they are quite incapable of weighing ideas, or even of comprehending any save the most elemental men whose whole thinking is done in terms of emotion, and whose dominant emotion is dread of what they cannot understand. So confronted, the candidate must either bark with the pack or count himself lost. ¦ All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. H.L. Mencken |
#78
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On Monday, 15 January 2018 14:19:45 UTC, Mad Roger wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality. that's true now No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though they're the same parts you get in the shops. I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard, which contains dead cars. same here I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it. What's the difference between my concept of a junkyard (which contains entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard? Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads? they're on cars, so used. NT |
#79
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On Monday, 15 January 2018 14:19:46 UTC, Mad Roger wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:29 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: Sigh. It's just sad. if they all work ok it's not sad, it's a nonissue I think you hit the reluctant nail on the head! The only way this can make sense is if all brake pads work. Period. So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms of performance. not really. But cars generally seem to deal with it ok. Ultimately it comes down to enough force to create enough friction, and almost any friction material can do that. Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad. All this assumes that you can't afford to run your own scientific tests, because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you can't do. For actual racing, those guys can spend the actual immense time comparing two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability. Sigh. It's sad. I didn't want to conclude that. I really didn't. But it is what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bull**** and fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad, then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad. I certainly bought bad pads in about 2000. The ones from the scrapyard OTOH I had no problem with. Those I got to see after they'd been used a bit, so I knew they weren't disintegrating, let alone badly, or oily. You criticised buying pads off scrap vehicles before, but truth is every time you buy a used car you're getting used brake pads. It's not a problem really. NT |
#80
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