On 09/08/13 23:11, dave wrote:
On 08/08/2013 04:34 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 9/08/2013 8:19 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Trevor Wilson"

**Dismantle the switches and clean with De-OxitT.


** Stupid, wrong advice.

De-Oxit = Cramolin = snake oil.




.... Phil




**Try using the stuff sometime. It does what it is claimed to do.
Naturally, the spray stuff is useless, but the type that you paint on,
leave for a few minutes and wipe off works very well indeed. Switches I
treated many years ago have long outlasted new replacements.


I spray it onto cotton swabs and stick that into noisy jacks. I hesitate
to use it on pots, but will try if I can't get them to quiet down with
my loop of string wrapped around the shaft, so I can vigorously work it,
so to speak.

Would that process increase the wearing out of the pot ??

"Rheilly Phoull"
Trevor Wilson wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:
"Trevor Wilson"

**Dismantle the switches and clean with De-OxitT.


** Stupid, wrong advice.

De-Oxit = Cramolin = snake oil.


**Try using the stuff sometime. It does what it is claimed to do.
Naturally, the spray stuff is useless, but the type that you paint on,
leave for a few minutes and wipe off works very well indeed. Switches I
treated many years ago have long outlasted new replacements.


I spray it onto cotton swabs and stick that into noisy jacks. I hesitate
to use it on pots, but will try if I can't get them to quiet down with
my loop of string wrapped around the shaft, so I can vigorously work it,
so to speak.

Would that process increase the wearing out of the pot ??


** LOL !

If you ever bothered to open a noisy or intermittently operating pot, you
usually see the same thing - a black blob is stuck to the end of the
wiper. The blob is a mixture of grease which has migrated from the bearing
and carbon dust from the track.

A little WD40 on a small brush cleans it up perfectly in seconds - because
WD40 is 90% grease solvent with a very
low surface tension.

If you squirt some into a pot through a hole or crevice, the same thing
happens but it takes a tad longer and you have to rotate the pot a few
times.

Fluids that have no or poor grease solvents simply cannot do this trick.

Include isopropyl alcohol and flurocarbons in this category - as used in so
called "contact cleaners".



.... Phil

On 08/10/2013 08:59 PM, Rheilly Phoull wrote:
On 09/08/13 23:11, dave wrote:
On 08/08/2013 04:34 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 9/08/2013 8:19 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Trevor Wilson"

**Dismantle the switches and clean with De-OxitT.


** Stupid, wrong advice.

De-Oxit = Cramolin = snake oil.




.... Phil




**Try using the stuff sometime. It does what it is claimed to do.
Naturally, the spray stuff is useless, but the type that you paint on,
leave for a few minutes and wipe off works very well indeed. Switches I
treated many years ago have long outlasted new replacements.


I spray it onto cotton swabs and stick that into noisy jacks. I hesitate
to use it on pots, but will try if I can't get them to quiet down with
my loop of string wrapped around the shaft, so I can vigorously work it,
so to speak.

Would that process increase the wearing out of the pot ??

No. Single turn pots (good ones) clean themselves as they are used. If
they have sat up for a while they obviously did not clean themselves
while on the shelf. I don't remember ever seeing a pot that flat "wore out".

On 08/10/2013 10:30 PM, Phil Allison wrote:


A little WD40 on a small brush cleans it up perfectly in seconds - because
WD40 is 90% grease solvent with a very
low surface tension.

If you squirt some into a pot through a hole or crevice, the same thing
happens but it takes a tad longer and you have to rotate the pot a few
times.

Fluids that have no or poor grease solvents simply cannot do this trick.

Include isopropyl alcohol and flurocarbons in this category - as used in so
called "contact cleaners".



... Phil


If I returned a boutique amp to a customer and it smelled like WD-40 I
would likely not see that person (or any of his friends) ever again.
WD-40 is something mechanics use. DeOxIt is something e-techs use.

"dave= total dickhead "

Phil Allison wrote:


A little WD40 on a small brush cleans it up perfectly in seconds -
because
WD40 is 90% grease solvent with a very
low surface tension.

If you squirt some into a pot through a hole or crevice, the same thing
happens but it takes a tad longer and you have to rotate the pot a few
times.

Fluids that have no or poor grease solvents simply cannot do this trick.

Include isopropyl alcohol and flurocarbons in this category - as used in
so
called "contact cleaners".


If I returned a boutique amp to a customer and it smelled like WD-40 I
would likely not see that person (or any of his friends) ever again.

** You need to get some smarter customers.

And there is no need for the amp to smell.


WD-40 is something mechanics use.

** And many, many others too.


DeOxIt is something e-techs use.

** Only the gullible ****wits like you.

And only in the USA.


.... Phil

"dave= dickhead "

No. Single turn pots (good ones) clean themselves as they are used. If
they have sat up for a while they obviously did not clean themselves while
on the shelf. I don't remember ever seeing a pot that flat "wore out".


** Dave is clearly NOT an audio tech.

Worn out pots are common sights and noisy pots cleaning themselves is
NONSENSE.

**** off fool.


.... Phil

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 09:03:05 -0700, dave
wrote:

I don't remember ever seeing a pot that flat "wore out".

Try taking apart the pots in a joystick. They get far more use than
any front panel control pot. I've seen them with grooves worn into
the carbon that match the individual fingers of the slider. I've also
seen the same thing in volume control knobs on 2way radios that
require turning the volume control to power on/off the radio. If you
leave such a worn grooved pot in place for a long time, the
lubricating grease will "migrate" into the grooves. When that
happens, the individual fingers will float on top of the grease, and
not make contact with the carbon, resulting in an intermittent. With
flat carbon, the fingers will push the grease out of the way. With a
grove in the carbon, the fingers will push the grease into the
grooves.

This also has caused me some grief in the distant past, where I would
"lube" a pot to break loose the shaft, and get the radio back with an
intermittent volume control a few months later. However, all this is
for high use 2way radio controls. I doubt that any hi-fi or even
commodity radio control would see sufficient use (or abuse) to put
grooves in the carbon.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann"


Try taking apart the pots in a joystick. They get far more use than
any front panel control pot. I've seen them with grooves worn into
the carbon that match the individual fingers of the slider. I've also
seen the same thing in volume control knobs on 2way radios that
require turning the volume control to power on/off the radio. If you
leave such a worn grooved pot in place for a long time, the
lubricating grease will "migrate" into the grooves. When that
happens, the individual fingers will float on top of the grease, and
not make contact with the carbon, resulting in an intermittent. With
flat carbon, the fingers will push the grease out of the way. With a
grove in the carbon, the fingers will push the grease into the
grooves.

This also has caused me some grief in the distant past, where I would
"lube" a pot to break loose the shaft, and get the radio back with an
intermittent volume control a few months later. However, all this is
for high use 2way radio controls. I doubt that any hi-fi or even
commodity radio control would see sufficient use (or abuse) to put
grooves in the carbon.


** I service mostly " pro audio " which includes mixing desks and the
special mixers used by DJs.

DJ mixers have a "cross-fader " that allows a pair of stereo channels to be
mixed in any proportion. Most DJs work the ring of the things - so much so
that it is standard practise make the cross-fader a "user replaceable"
module fitted on sub panel that slots into the main panel.

Nothing unusual to see cross-faders ( and channel faders) with all the tips
worn off the fingers and deep grooves in the carbon track - right down to
the phenolic backing.

Most control pots these days have the carbon track deposited on the backing
material rather the old method of using a solid, moulded track and attaching
it to a backing.

Deposited tracks are very much thinner and wear out much sooner.



.... Phil

Phil Allison har bragt dette til os:

DJ mixers have a "cross-fader " that allows a pair of stereo channels to be
mixed in any proportion. Most DJs work the ring of the things - so much so
that it is standard practise make the cross-fader a "user replaceable" module
fitted on sub panel that slots into the main panel.

Are anyone using an optical fader, where moving the fader allows more
or less light to a sensor, controlling the fading?

Or should I file a patent claim? :-)

--
Husk kørelys bagpå, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

"Leif Neland"
Phil Allison har bragt dette til os:

DJ mixers have a "cross-fader " that allows a pair of stereo channels to
be mixed in any proportion. Most DJs work the ring of the things - so
much so that it is standard practise make the cross-fader a "user
replaceable" module fitted on sub panel that slots into the main panel.

Are anyone using an optical fader, where moving the fader allows more or
less light to a sensor, controlling the fading?

Or should I file a patent claim? :-)


** I built such a set up for a customer in the mid 1980s.

Worked like a charm.

A few high end DJ desks have optical or VCA x-faders.


..... Phil

On 08/11/2013 08:12 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 09:03:05 -0700, dave
wrote:

I don't remember ever seeing a pot that flat "wore out".

Try taking apart the pots in a joystick. They get far more use than
any front panel control pot. I've seen them with grooves worn into
the carbon that match the individual fingers of the slider. I've also
seen the same thing in volume control knobs on 2way radios that
require turning the volume control to power on/off the radio. If you
leave such a worn grooved pot in place for a long time, the
lubricating grease will "migrate" into the grooves. When that
happens, the individual fingers will float on top of the grease, and
not make contact with the carbon, resulting in an intermittent. With
flat carbon, the fingers will push the grease out of the way. With a
grove in the carbon, the fingers will push the grease into the
grooves.

This also has caused me some grief in the distant past, where I would
"lube" a pot to break loose the shaft, and get the radio back with an
intermittent volume control a few months later. However, all this is
for high use 2way radio controls. I doubt that any hi-fi or even
commodity radio control would see sufficient use (or abuse) to put
grooves in the carbon.


I've installed 2 ways, never had to fix one. Same for mechanical
joysticks. I repair amps, mixers, speakers; I am thinking of adding
1970s stereos, because I love the technology. I used to be in
broadcasting and can service any kind of transmitter.

On 08/12/2013 02:18 AM, Phil Allison wrote:

"Leif Neland"
Phil Allison har bragt dette til os:

DJ mixers have a "cross-fader " that allows a pair of stereo channels to
be mixed in any proportion. Most DJs work the ring of the things - so
much so that it is standard practise make the cross-fader a "user
replaceable" module fitted on sub panel that slots into the main panel.

Are anyone using an optical fader, where moving the fader allows more or
less light to a sensor, controlling the fading?

Or should I file a patent claim? :-)


** I built such a set up for a customer in the mid 1980s.

Worked like a charm.

A few high end DJ desks have optical or VCA x-faders.


.... Phil

Hall-effect feels left out now.

http://www.electronicproducts.com/Pa...vs_sensor.aspx

Phil Allison wrote:

"William Sommer****** "
"Phil Allison"
[DeOxit] merely has snob appeal.
Only fools bother with that.

I must be a fool to enjoy removing the oxide layer from a conductive
surface.

** Silver and gold plated connectors do NOT form oxides and even common
nickel plated ones barely form an oxide layer under normal room conditions.


That's a bald faced lie, and you know it. Otherwise, no TV tuner
would have ever needed cleaning. Bird Watt meters would never give
false readings, and no one would have ever needed to polish their
silverware. Silver plated RF connectors would never overheat. It's too
bad that you are never man enough to admit what a useless fool you
really are.



--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Phil Allison wrote:

** Silver and gold plated connectors do NOT form oxides and even common
nickel-plated ones barely form an oxide layer under normal room conditions.

I don't know how you'd define an oxide, but I'd say that losing electrons
qualifies.

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver(I)_sulfide

"Michael A. Terrell"
Phil Allison wrote:

"Phil Allison"
[DeOxit] merely has snob appeal.
Only fools bother with that.

I must be a fool to enjoy removing the oxide layer from a conductive
surface.

** Silver and gold plated connectors do NOT form oxides and even common
nickel plated ones barely form an oxide layer under normal room
conditions.


That's a bald faced lie, and you know it. Otherwise, no TV tuner
would have ever needed cleaning. Bird Watt meters would never give
false readings, and no one would have ever needed to polish their
silverware. Silver plated RF connectors would never overheat.


** Silver does not form an oxide under any normal condition.

If forms a sulphide layer (Ag2S ) due to air containing some H2S from
burning fossil fuels etc.



.... Phil

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2013 19:49:09 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

Try some WD40 or similar spray lubricant - seriously bet it makes all the
switches work again.

That works, if you don't mind doing it again in about a month. The
residual oils left behind by WD-40 seems to turn to sticky gum. Try
it yourself. Spray some WD-40 on some glass and let it evaporate.
Check the oil after a few weeks of exposure to air. I used some
microscope slides with various contact cleaners. Only WD-40 became
sticky. Note that the "electrical contact cleaner" term was removed
from the WD-40 can at some times in the 1970's. The company also
introduced a product designed specifically for contact cleaning, which
contains NO oils:
http://www.wd40specialist.com/products/contact-cleaner/
If you want to break loose frozen controls, I have no problem using
WD-40. However, for contact cleaner, I use something else.


I have in my mind, a tv tuner on the WD-40 can. Am I right ?

My preferred general purpose spray is CRC 2-26 .
I know that says, improves electrical properties, and plastic safe.

I used to have a lot of problems with volume controls in the desert. Sand?
Also have a can of Blue Shower, with the dohickies in it. I never much used
it. I bought one of the last cans.

Greg

gregz wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2013 19:49:09 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

Try some WD40 or similar spray lubricant - seriously bet it makes all the
switches work again.

That works, if you don't mind doing it again in about a month. The
residual oils left behind by WD-40 seems to turn to sticky gum. Try
it yourself. Spray some WD-40 on some glass and let it evaporate.
Check the oil after a few weeks of exposure to air. I used some
microscope slides with various contact cleaners. Only WD-40 became
sticky. Note that the "electrical contact cleaner" term was removed
from the WD-40 can at some times in the 1970's. The company also
introduced a product designed specifically for contact cleaning, which
contains NO oils:
http://www.wd40specialist.com/products/contact-cleaner/
If you want to break loose frozen controls, I have no problem using
WD-40. However, for contact cleaner, I use something else.


I have in my mind, a tv tuner on the WD-40 can. Am I right ?

My preferred general purpose spray is CRC 2-26 .
I know that says, improves electrical properties, and plastic safe.

I used to have a lot of problems with volume controls in the desert. Sand?
Also have a can of Blue Shower, with the dohickies in it. I never much used
it. I bought one of the last cans.

Greg

The really cool thing about CRC 2-26 . If you just gently push the button,
it foams out of the nozzle, filling voids very well.

I've used most everything. Used more WD-40 over the years than anything.
I also have used Cramolin Contaclean. It has made pots so sticky, they will
not turn. You got to flush that stuff off, like it says on the can, after
cleaning cycle.

Greg

"gregz"

I have in my mind, a tv tuner on the WD-40 can. Am I right ?


** No.

On a can of Servisol maybe....

My preferred general purpose spray is CRC 2-26 .
I know that says, improves electrical properties, and plastic safe.


** Same as WD-40 then.



.... Phil

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 10:18:34 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

** Silver does not form an oxide under any normal condition.

If forms a sulphide layer (Ag2S ) due to air containing some H2S from
burning fossil fuels etc.

Yep. Even worse, the silver sulfide to silver junction makes a
tolerable diode (band gap = 1 eV). I was having serious problems at a
radio site with what is now known as PIM (passive intermodulation). I
had stupidly cleaned the silver plated plugs, but not the jacks. After
a week of bad guesses, I cleaned both connectors, and the problems
went away.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 10:18:34 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

** Silver does not form an oxide under any normal condition.

If forms a sulphide layer (Ag2S ) due to air containing some H2S from
burning fossil fuels etc.

Yep. Even worse, the silver sulfide to silver junction makes a
tolerable diode (band gap = 1 eV). I was having serious problems at a
radio site with what is now known as PIM (passive intermodulation). I
had stupidly cleaned the silver plated plugs, but not the jacks. After
a week of bad guesses, I cleaned both connectors, and the problems
went away.


I had a Bird Wattmeter on the bench at one job. (QA on the PRC77) The
thing read about 30% difference from one direction to the other because
it was silver to silver in one direction, and silver to crap the other.
The Cal lab threw a real hissy fit when they heard that I cleaned it
with a piece of paper.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:29:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 10:18:34 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

** Silver does not form an oxide under any normal condition.

If forms a sulphide layer (Ag2S ) due to air containing some H2S from
burning fossil fuels etc.

Yep. Even worse, the silver sulfide to silver junction makes a
tolerable diode (band gap = 1 eV). I was having serious problems at a
radio site with what is now known as PIM (passive intermodulation). I
had stupidly cleaned the silver plated plugs, but not the jacks. After
a week of bad guesses, I cleaned both connectors, and the problems
went away.

I had a Bird Wattmeter on the bench at one job. (QA on the PRC77) The
thing read about 30% difference from one direction to the other because
it was silver to silver in one direction, and silver to crap the other.
The Cal lab threw a real hissy fit when they heard that I cleaned it
with a piece of paper.

About 20 years ago, I was involved in a wattmeter calibration party.
Mostly, we were trying to product frequency versus indicated power
graphs. Should be simple enough. Right.

Because of erratic readings, it was decided that everything needed to
have the contacts cleaned and tarnish removed. Someone dug out some
silver polish, which made the slugs and couplers look nice and shiny,
but also coated them with a layer of wax. The readings stabilized
only after everything was wiped with alcohol patches to remove the
wax.

After that, we found that many of the slugs produced seriously
inaccurate readings. Dig out the Model 43 data sheet and it says
+/- 5% accuracy. Ok, 5% of what? Calling Bird support determined
that it was 5% of full scale. Therefore, if I use a 100 watt slug to
measure a 25 watt transmitter, and 5% of 100 watts = 5 watts, 25 watts
indicated could be anywhere between 20 and 30 watts. So, we ran the
graphs mostly at full scale with a few spot checks 1/2 and 1/4th of
full scale. A Telewave 44A (no slugs required) turned out to be quite
good (specified accuracy +/- 6% of FS) above about 200 Mhz, but
required using the included calibration chart for lower frequencies.
Also, my collection of battered Radio Shack VHF/UHF VSWR meters were
amazingly accurate (in the ham bands).

There was some discussion that a light bulb dummy load and light meter
was more accurate, but we didn't have time to verify the claim.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:


About 20 years ago, I was involved in a wattmeter calibration party.
Mostly, we were trying to product frequency versus indicated power
graphs. Should be simple enough. Right.

Because of erratic readings, it was decided that everything needed to
have the contacts cleaned and tarnish removed. Someone dug out some
silver polish, which made the slugs and couplers look nice and shiny,
but also coated them with a layer of wax. The readings stabilized
only after everything was wiped with alcohol patches to remove the
wax.

That was why I used some old greenbar computer paper.


After that, we found that many of the slugs produced seriously
inaccurate readings. Dig out the Model 43 data sheet and it says
+/- 5% accuracy. Ok, 5% of what? Calling Bird support determined
that it was 5% of full scale. Therefore, if I use a 100 watt slug to
measure a 25 watt transmitter, and 5% of 100 watts = 5 watts, 25 watts
indicated could be anywhere between 20 and 30 watts. So, we ran the
graphs mostly at full scale with a few spot checks 1/2 and 1/4th of
full scale. A Telewave 44A (no slugs required) turned out to be quite
good (specified accuracy +/- 6% of FS) above about 200 Mhz, but
required using the included calibration chart for lower frequencies.
Also, my collection of battered Radio Shack VHF/UHF VSWR meters were
amazingly accurate (in the ham bands).

There was some discussion that a light bulb dummy load and light meter
was more accurate, but we didn't have time to verify the claim.


For their market, the Bird was good enough. As long as the
'Federation of Chicken Chuckers' were in a good mood.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

"dave" wrote in message
m...

On 08/10/2013 10:30 PM, Phil Allison wrote:


A little WD40 on a small brush cleans it up perfectly in seconds - because
WD40 is 90% grease solvent with a very
low surface tension.

If you squirt some into a pot through a hole or crevice, the same thing
happens but it takes a tad longer and you have to rotate the pot a few
times.

Fluids that have no or poor grease solvents simply cannot do this trick.

Include isopropyl alcohol and flurocarbons in this category - as used in
so
called "contact cleaners".



... Phil


If I returned a boutique amp to a customer and it smelled like WD-40 I
would likely not see that person (or any of his friends) ever again.
WD-40 is something mechanics use. DeOxIt is something e-techs use.






I bought a bottle of De-Oxit a few years ago because I thought it must be at
least as good as its reputation.
I don't use it now because it doesn't seem to work very well at all.

I quite like this instead, and have been using it for more than a decade.
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/displayProduct.jsp?sku=2142395&CMP=KNC-GUK-FUK-GEN-LISTINGS&gross_price=true&mckv=YKMwxwd8|pcrid|1416 4337469|plid|&gclid=CJLJtuiS-7gCFY_KtAodLQsAGw



Gareth.