Canton domestic sub. Bit of an oddball fault to do with the auto power-on
circuitry. Probably something simple like a surface mount R around an opamp.
Nothing obvious leapt out at me in a sensible time, so request put in for
some service info.

"Nope. Not available. These units repaired by swap-out of the amplifier
board" came back the reply. So the shop ordered one in - presumably after
clearing the cost with the poor old owner ...

Today, it arrived. When they said a 'replacement board', what they actually
meant was a replacement everything, bar the actual driver and its cabinet !
So that's the black satin plated back panel, every connector, the preamp /
control board, the power supply / power amp board, even the heavy duty
torroidal power transformer. All I had to do was connect the driver (that
actually involved a soldering iron !!) and screw the plate to the cabinet.
Nonsense, or what ?

A couple of weeks back, I had a problem with my central heating boiler, so I
called in an acquaintance who is a heating engineer. Whilst he was working
on my problem, I asked him if he replaced many boiler control boards in the
course of his daily work. I was thinking that modern ones probably suffer a
lot of bad (lead-free) joints from relay hammer and general vibration from
pumps and fans and things, and that there might be some fairly easy money to
be made by us both. He said that he replaces loads, so I asked him what he
did with the bad ones. "Throw 'em away" he replied. Better and better, I
thought, so I asked him if he would be interested in getting them repaired.
This was met with a firm "No". I asked him why not, and he said that it
wouldn't be worth his while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a
customer's boiler, and it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he would
be left out of pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer
who probably wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

No amount of discussion about quality diagnosis and repair and warranty,
would sway him from his position on the matter.

So there we have it. Despite being forced to accept eco-bollox light bulbs,
and windmills all over the countryside, and everything else that has grown
up around the green movement, a significant proportion of any planet saving
that may result from this, is being chucked away by the repair attitudes of
everyone from manufacturers, right down to one-man-band service
organisations. Until such attitudes are revised, what's the point in
bothering ? Considering the amount of electronic consumer goods that are
scrapped from lack of service info and parts, I'm sure that government could
have a much more significant impact on the electronics recycling situation,
by legislating on making parts and service assistance available. But then,
it's not really about saving the planet, is it ... ?

Arfa

On 2/14/2011 10:04 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm sure that government could have a much more significant
impact on the electronics recycling situation, by legislating
on making parts and service assistance available.

They have, they've made it illegal to throw anything in the trash
with wires attached.

So all the old dead TV sets and such are just dumped in the ally
ways and streets when nobody is looking now.

Jeff

"Jeffrey Angus" wrote in message
. ..
On 2/14/2011 10:04 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm sure that government could have a much more significant
impact on the electronics recycling situation, by legislating
on making parts and service assistance available.

They have, they've made it illegal to throw anything in the trash
with wires attached.

So all the old dead TV sets and such are just dumped in the ally
ways and streets when nobody is looking now.

Jeff

That still means that they are actually encouraging recycling rather than
repair, though. Although I don't have a problem with the principle of
recycling materials, it never-the-less still requires a (disproportionate ?)
energy input to carry it out. I feel that many people are forced to replace
their goods sooner than they otherwise would, by the fact that they can't
get them repaired. Surely, it would be better for governments to deal with
the problem directly at manufacturer level, by legislating along the lines
of "You wanna sell your goods in our country ? Fine, but you have to make at
least service info available."

I can sympathise with manufacturers' positions on spare parts to some
degree. These days, it would be a logistic nightmare to try to be able to
hold and supply all of the specialist parts used in modern equipment, but so
much of this stuff could be EASILY fixed with standard off-the-shelf
components, if only schematics even, were made available.

Arfa

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:04:18 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

I asked him why not, and he said that it
wouldn't be worth his while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a
customer's boiler, and it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he would
be left out of pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer
who probably wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

It's worse than that. I know several manufacturers that go through
considerable effort to make sure their boards are destroyed and NOT
recycled. The problem is that they lose control of the boards during
the recycling process and that recyclers are the major source of
"repairable" boards. These boards are fished out of the recyling
bins, repaired (or not repaired) and placed back on the market through
various means. When one of these boards fail, the customer goes after
the manufacturer and not the repair person. The manufacturer usually
has to honor the warranty in order to salvage their reputation. The
quantities involved are minor, but the irritations and support load is
sufficiently irritating to inspire manufacturers to destroy or crush
their boards before recycling. Add to that the counterfeit
electronics problem, and little wonder the manufacturers want to
retain a strangle-hold on the product from cradle to grave.

Oddly, some vendors require a "core deposit" which is common in the
automobile parts busines, before they will sell a replacement board.
In the US, repair shops are required to "offer" the old parts to the
customer, which usually means loss of any core deposit. It's fairly
obvious that the core charge is solely to make sure the customer does
not retain the bad board, and later decide to have it repaired.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:32:12 -0000, "Arfa Daily" wrote:



"Jeffrey Angus" wrote in message
...
On 2/14/2011 10:04 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm sure that government could have a much more significant
impact on the electronics recycling situation, by legislating
on making parts and service assistance available.

They have, they've made it illegal to throw anything in the trash
with wires attached.

So all the old dead TV sets and such are just dumped in the ally
ways and streets when nobody is looking now.

Jeff

That still means that they are actually encouraging recycling rather than
repair, though. Although I don't have a problem with the principle of
recycling materials, it never-the-less still requires a (disproportionate ?)
energy input to carry it out. I feel that many people are forced to replace
their goods sooner than they otherwise would, by the fact that they can't
get them repaired. Surely, it would be better for governments to deal with
the problem directly at manufacturer level, by legislating along the lines
of "You wanna sell your goods in our country ? Fine, but you have to make at
least service info available."

Some gear seems unrepairable, SD memory socket spring broke in my P&S camera,
sent it in to Canon for warranty repair, they sent me next model camera as
warranty replacement rather than replace the busted memory socket! Maybe
they wanted the cam as QA sample? I think they simply decide what's cheaper,
and labour rates are too high, in relation to the consumer goods prices these
days. No incentive to repair from owner's PoV?. Dead computer monitor, $90
to repair or $130 to replace -- which way most people go these days?

Grant.

I can sympathise with manufacturers' positions on spare parts to some
degree. These days, it would be a logistic nightmare to try to be able to
hold and supply all of the specialist parts used in modern equipment, but so
much of this stuff could be EASILY fixed with standard off-the-shelf
components, if only schematics even, were made available.

Arfa

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:04:18 +0000, Arfa Daily wrote:

Canton domestic sub. Bit of an oddball fault to do with the auto
power-on circuitry. Probably something simple like a surface mount R
around an opamp. Nothing obvious leapt out at me in a sensible time, so
request put in for some service info.

"Nope. Not available. These units repaired by swap-out of the amplifier
board" came back the reply. So the shop ordered one in - presumably
after clearing the cost with the poor old owner ...

Today, it arrived. When they said a 'replacement board', what they
actually meant was a replacement everything, bar the actual driver and
its cabinet ! So that's the black satin plated back panel, every
connector, the preamp / control board, the power supply / power amp
board, even the heavy duty torroidal power transformer. All I had to do
was connect the driver (that actually involved a soldering iron !!) and
screw the plate to the cabinet. Nonsense, or what ?

A couple of weeks back, I had a problem with my central heating boiler,
so I called in an acquaintance who is a heating engineer. Whilst he was
working on my problem, I asked him if he replaced many boiler control
boards in the course of his daily work. I was thinking that modern ones
probably suffer a lot of bad (lead-free) joints from relay hammer and
general vibration from pumps and fans and things, and that there might
be some fairly easy money to be made by us both. He said that he
replaces loads, so I asked him what he did with the bad ones. "Throw 'em
away" he replied. Better and better, I thought, so I asked him if he
would be interested in getting them repaired. This was met with a firm
"No". I asked him why not, and he said that it wouldn't be worth his
while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a customer's boiler, and
it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he would be left out of
pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer who probably
wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

No amount of discussion about quality diagnosis and repair and warranty,
would sway him from his position on the matter.

So there we have it. Despite being forced to accept eco-bollox light
bulbs, and windmills all over the countryside, and everything else that
has grown up around the green movement, a significant proportion of any
planet saving that may result from this, is being chucked away by the
repair attitudes of everyone from manufacturers, right down to
one-man-band service organisations. Until such attitudes are revised,
what's the point in bothering ? Considering the amount of electronic
consumer goods that are scrapped from lack of service info and parts,
I'm sure that government could have a much more significant impact on
the electronics recycling situation, by legislating on making parts and
service assistance available. But then, it's not really about saving the
planet, is it ... ?

Arfa

And this is really nothing new. I couldn't count how many times I have
spent tracking down parts a service literature in vain. And one bloke who
worked for Nady I actually got fired for sending me schematics for a 201
guitar wireless I wanted to re-crystal.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

On Feb 14, 9:35*am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:04:18 -0000, "Arfa Daily"

wrote:
I asked him why not, and he said that it
wouldn't be worth his while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a
customer's boiler, and it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he would
be left out of pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer
who probably wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

It's worse than that. *I know several manufacturers that go through
considerable effort to make sure their boards are destroyed and NOT
recycled. *The problem is that they lose control of the boards during
the recycling process and that recyclers are the major source of
"repairable" boards. *These boards are fished out of the recyling
bins, repaired (or not repaired) and placed back on the market through
various means. *When one of these boards fail, the customer goes after
the manufacturer and not the repair person. *The manufacturer usually
has to honor the warranty in order to salvage their reputation. *The
quantities involved are minor, but the irritations and support load is
sufficiently irritating to inspire manufacturers to destroy or crush
their boards before recycling. *Add to that the counterfeit
electronics problem, and little wonder the manufacturers want to
retain a strangle-hold on the product from cradle to grave. *

Oddly, some vendors require a "core deposit" which is common in the
automobile parts busines, before they will sell a replacement board.
In the US, repair shops are required to "offer" the old parts to the
customer, which usually means loss of any core deposit. *It's fairly
obvious that the core charge is solely to make sure the customer does
not retain the bad board, and later decide to have it repaired.

--
Jeff Liebermann * *
150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558

On the other hand, the ABS/Traction control computer in my wife's 1996
car started to give intermittant error indications. A replacement was
$250, but would anyone want to rely on an unauthorized repaired board?
I don't even want to consider the liability to the repairer should any
controller repair contribute to an accident [like the ABS or the
boiler controls]. I will not even look further than faulty connections
or power supply issues on any equipment that even hints of safety
issues!

Neil S.

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:04:18 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

I asked him why not, and he said that it
wouldn't be worth his while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a
customer's boiler, and it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he
would
be left out of pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer
who probably wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

It's worse than that. I know several manufacturers that go through
considerable effort to make sure their boards are destroyed and NOT
recycled. The problem is that they lose control of the boards during
the recycling process and that recyclers are the major source of
"repairable" boards. These boards are fished out of the recyling
bins, repaired (or not repaired) and placed back on the market through
various means. When one of these boards fail, the customer goes after
the manufacturer and not the repair person. The manufacturer usually
has to honor the warranty in order to salvage their reputation. The
quantities involved are minor, but the irritations and support load is
sufficiently irritating to inspire manufacturers to destroy or crush
their boards before recycling. Add to that the counterfeit
electronics problem, and little wonder the manufacturers want to
retain a strangle-hold on the product from cradle to grave.

Oddly, some vendors require a "core deposit" which is common in the
automobile parts busines, before they will sell a replacement board.
In the US, repair shops are required to "offer" the old parts to the
customer, which usually means loss of any core deposit. It's fairly
obvious that the core charge is solely to make sure the customer does
not retain the bad board, and later decide to have it repaired.


--
Jeff Liebermann


The situation over here is not quite the same, but there are similarities.
But all of that just underlines the point that no matter what would be truly
beneficial to the green movement - and simple repair with a twopenny
resistor has got to qualify - it really isn't about that, at all. Which is
actually just as most of us in the repair game already know ...

Arfa

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
A couple of weeks back, I had a problem with my central heating boiler,
so I called in an acquaintance who is a heating engineer. Whilst he was
working on my problem, I asked him if he replaced many boiler control
boards in the course of his daily work. I was thinking that modern ones
probably suffer a lot of bad (lead-free) joints from relay hammer and
general vibration from pumps and fans and things, and that there might
be some fairly easy money to be made by us both. He said that he
replaces loads, so I asked him what he did with the bad ones. "Throw 'em
away" he replied. Better and better, I thought, so I asked him if he
would be interested in getting them repaired. This was met with a firm
"No". I asked him why not, and he said that it wouldn't be worth his
while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a customer's boiler, and
it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he would be left out of
pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer who probably
wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

As you probably know from uk.d-i-y there is a contributor there who owns
a firm which offers exchange re-manufactured boiler PCBs and fans etc.

http://www.cetltd.com/

As I remember things, he says many of these are of poor quality in both
design and manufacture, but he is restricted by 'law' to simply repairing
them rather than modifying/improving.

Your pal seems to have an odd attitude - replacing something which has
failed prematurely by one from the same maker is the best option? ;-)

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2/15/2011 4:52 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Your pal seems to have an odd attitude - replacing something
which has failed prematurely by one from the same maker is
the best option?;-)

In a word, lawyers.

Also, if the replacement fails, it's the manufacturers fault,
not his.

Having a solid (and well heeled) "somebody else" to blame is
a major factor when dealing with lawyers.

Jeff

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:04:18 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Canton domestic sub. Bit of an oddball fault to do with the auto power-on
circuitry. Probably something simple like a surface mount R around an opamp.
Nothing obvious leapt out at me in a sensible time, so request put in for
some service info.

"Nope. Not available. These units repaired by swap-out of the amplifier
board" came back the reply. So the shop ordered one in - presumably after
clearing the cost with the poor old owner ...

Today, it arrived. When they said a 'replacement board', what they actually
meant was a replacement everything, bar the actual driver and its cabinet !
So that's the black satin plated back panel, every connector, the preamp /
control board, the power supply / power amp board, even the heavy duty
torroidal power transformer. All I had to do was connect the driver (that
actually involved a soldering iron !!) and screw the plate to the cabinet.
Nonsense, or what ?

A couple of weeks back, I had a problem with my central heating boiler, so I
called in an acquaintance who is a heating engineer. Whilst he was working
on my problem, I asked him if he replaced many boiler control boards in the
course of his daily work. I was thinking that modern ones probably suffer a
lot of bad (lead-free) joints from relay hammer and general vibration from
pumps and fans and things, and that there might be some fairly easy money to
be made by us both. He said that he replaces loads, so I asked him what he
did with the bad ones. "Throw 'em away" he replied. Better and better, I
thought, so I asked him if he would be interested in getting them repaired.
This was met with a firm "No". I asked him why not, and he said that it
wouldn't be worth his while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a
customer's boiler, and it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he would
be left out of pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer
who probably wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

No amount of discussion about quality diagnosis and repair and warranty,
would sway him from his position on the matter.

So there we have it. Despite being forced to accept eco-bollox light bulbs,
and windmills all over the countryside, and everything else that has grown
up around the green movement, a significant proportion of any planet saving
that may result from this, is being chucked away by the repair attitudes of
everyone from manufacturers, right down to one-man-band service
organisations. Until such attitudes are revised, what's the point in
bothering ? Considering the amount of electronic consumer goods that are
scrapped from lack of service info and parts, I'm sure that government could
have a much more significant impact on the electronics recycling situation,
by legislating on making parts and service assistance available. But then,
it's not really about saving the planet, is it ... ?

Arfa


In the states, I just looked at a defective Hsu subwoofer for a
friend. The switched power supply was dead. Electrolytic caps, fets,
and the start resistors were all ok so we requested a schematic. They
wouldn't sell us a schematic or parts. Our choices were to send in
the whole amp assembly for a $160.00 repair or a complete amp assembly
swap for $200.00. Just love today's companies customer service
policies. Thirty years ago even junk brands like Lloyds, Yorx, and
Electrophonic provided parts in a timely manner. Is there anybody out
there making a decent living doing repair on modern consumer audio
equipment?

In article ,
Jeffrey Angus wrote:
Your pal seems to have an odd attitude - replacing something
which has failed prematurely by one from the same maker is
the best option?;-)

In a word, lawyers.

Not in the UK.

Also, if the replacement fails, it's the manufacturers fault,
not his.

The manufacturer's liability would be restricted to simply supplying the
replacement part. He would have to 'pay' for his own labour himself. So
really no different from supplying a different make replacement.

Having a solid (and well heeled) "somebody else" to blame is
a major factor when dealing with lawyers.

Luckily we don't go down that route in the UK for the likes of this sort
of thing.

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
A couple of weeks back, I had a problem with my central heating boiler,
so I called in an acquaintance who is a heating engineer. Whilst he was
working on my problem, I asked him if he replaced many boiler control
boards in the course of his daily work. I was thinking that modern ones
probably suffer a lot of bad (lead-free) joints from relay hammer and
general vibration from pumps and fans and things, and that there might
be some fairly easy money to be made by us both. He said that he
replaces loads, so I asked him what he did with the bad ones. "Throw 'em
away" he replied. Better and better, I thought, so I asked him if he
would be interested in getting them repaired. This was met with a firm
"No". I asked him why not, and he said that it wouldn't be worth his
while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a customer's boiler, and
it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he would be left out of
pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer who probably
wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

As you probably know from uk.d-i-y there is a contributor there who owns
a firm which offers exchange re-manufactured boiler PCBs and fans etc.

http://www.cetltd.com/

As I remember things, he says many of these are of poor quality in both
design and manufacture, but he is restricted by 'law' to simply repairing
them rather than modifying/improving.

Your pal seems to have an odd attitude - replacing something which has
failed prematurely by one from the same maker is the best option? ;-)

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman

Yes, I am aware of him, which is part of the reason that I thought my guy
might be interested. Part of his problem was that he felt that his customers
preferred to see a brand spanking new board come out of a box, with a shiny
new manufacturer's warranty. That way, if it too should fail, he was able to
blame the problem on the maker, and get yet another brand new one out of
them for nothing.

Arfa

"Chuck" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:04:18 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Canton domestic sub. Bit of an oddball fault to do with the auto power-on
circuitry. Probably something simple like a surface mount R around an
opamp.
Nothing obvious leapt out at me in a sensible time, so request put in for
some service info.

"Nope. Not available. These units repaired by swap-out of the amplifier
board" came back the reply. So the shop ordered one in - presumably after
clearing the cost with the poor old owner ...

Today, it arrived. When they said a 'replacement board', what they
actually
meant was a replacement everything, bar the actual driver and its cabinet
!
So that's the black satin plated back panel, every connector, the preamp /
control board, the power supply / power amp board, even the heavy duty
torroidal power transformer. All I had to do was connect the driver (that
actually involved a soldering iron !!) and screw the plate to the cabinet.
Nonsense, or what ?

A couple of weeks back, I had a problem with my central heating boiler, so
I
called in an acquaintance who is a heating engineer. Whilst he was working
on my problem, I asked him if he replaced many boiler control boards in
the
course of his daily work. I was thinking that modern ones probably suffer
a
lot of bad (lead-free) joints from relay hammer and general vibration from
pumps and fans and things, and that there might be some fairly easy money
to
be made by us both. He said that he replaces loads, so I asked him what he
did with the bad ones. "Throw 'em away" he replied. Better and better, I
thought, so I asked him if he would be interested in getting them
repaired.
This was met with a firm "No". I asked him why not, and he said that it
wouldn't be worth his while, because if he fitted a repaired board to a
customer's boiler, and it went wrong again a couple of weeks later, he
would
be left out of pocket on the return call, and with a disgruntled customer
who probably wouldn't use him or recommend him again.

No amount of discussion about quality diagnosis and repair and warranty,
would sway him from his position on the matter.

So there we have it. Despite being forced to accept eco-bollox light
bulbs,
and windmills all over the countryside, and everything else that has grown
up around the green movement, a significant proportion of any planet
saving
that may result from this, is being chucked away by the repair attitudes
of
everyone from manufacturers, right down to one-man-band service
organisations. Until such attitudes are revised, what's the point in
bothering ? Considering the amount of electronic consumer goods that are
scrapped from lack of service info and parts, I'm sure that government
could
have a much more significant impact on the electronics recycling
situation,
by legislating on making parts and service assistance available. But then,
it's not really about saving the planet, is it ... ?

Arfa


In the states, I just looked at a defective Hsu subwoofer for a
friend. The switched power supply was dead. Electrolytic caps, fets,
and the start resistors were all ok so we requested a schematic. They
wouldn't sell us a schematic or parts. Our choices were to send in
the whole amp assembly for a $160.00 repair or a complete amp assembly
swap for $200.00. Just love today's companies customer service
policies. Thirty years ago even junk brands like Lloyds, Yorx, and
Electrophonic provided parts in a timely manner. Is there anybody out
there making a decent living doing repair on modern consumer audio
equipment?

Well, I make a fair living doing it as a trade only service. Thirty years
ago, every independent retailer had a little workshop out the back of his
store, and employed an engineer or two. These days, the ones that are left
can't afford such luxuries, so rely on the likes of me to handle their
service work for them. It's hard sometimes, and parts and schematics are an
ever-present problem, but on the whole, most of us on here and in other
groups help each other out in this regard, and get by. My activities are
helped by keeping the work as diverse as possible, for instance by repairing
P.A. equipment, and in particular tube amplifiers, where there's not a lot
of skills around any more. I have also got into fancy DMX controlled pro
lighting, where again, there doesn't seem to be too much 'proper' repair
expertise. I also do some commercial drinks machine control board repairs.
All adds up.

So yes, there is a living to be made still, but it gets a little harder
every year, I think ... d :-\

Arfa

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
Part of his problem was that he felt that his customers preferred to
see a brand spanking new board come out of a box, with a shiny new
manufacturer's warranty.

I very much doubt many customers would watch the boiler being repaired -
or have clue or care what spares were being fitted.

The contract for the repair is with the repair man. He then has a contract
with his spares supplier.

--
*Errors have been made. Others will be blamed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.