Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry

larya wrote:
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
If it's ATX, ground the PS_ON pin.

See Wikipedia for Pinout.

Regards,
Michael Karcher

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:04:37 -0700 (PDT), larya
wrote:

Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry
Not a group per se, but the BadCaps forum -
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/index.php? - has a section on computer
power supplies. A large part of the discussion is about the
deficiencies of various vendors. One vendor actually glues iron
weights inside their power supplies so they weigh more. A heavy power
supply must be better, right?

Fry's Electronics sells an inexpensive 'test box' for power supplies,
but it is very limited.

PlainBill

On Apr 23, 8:04*am, larya wrote:
Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... *I have thepower supplyout of the computer...

Do you have and use an oscilloscope? Good, now you are ready to
start learning this stuff. Take lessons on transistors, pulse width
modulation, diodes, filters, .... You will not believe how many
functions are required in a power supply if you did not read its full
page of numeric specs. To fix a power supply means you understand
what those specs say. Implied - how many self proclaimed computer
'experts' do not even know what a power supply does. They think it
only provided voltage. Learn how complex a power supply really is and
the many functions it performs.

Of course, learn of the power supply controller – another component
that many do not even know exists.

westom wrote:

On Apr 23, 8:04 am, larya wrote:
Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have thepower supplyout of the computer...

Do you have and use an oscilloscope? Good, now you are ready to
start learning this stuff. Take lessons on transistors, pulse width
modulation, diodes, filters, .... You will not believe how many
functions are required in a power supply if you did not read its full
page of numeric specs. To fix a power supply means you understand
what those specs say. Implied - how many self proclaimed computer
'experts' do not even know what a power supply does. They think it
only provided voltage. Learn how complex a power supply really is and
the many functions it performs.

Of course, learn of the power supply controller – another component
that many do not even know exists.

And be damn careful with the voltages inside.

Graham

PlainBill wrote:

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:04:37 -0700 (PDT), larya
wrote:

Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry
Not a group per se, but the BadCaps forum -
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/index.php? - has a section on computer
power supplies. A large part of the discussion is about the
deficiencies of various vendors. One vendor actually glues iron
weights inside their power supplies so they weigh more. A heavy power
supply must be better, right?

I fixed an ATX supply by replacing 2 very obviously bulged caps on the
output side with ones from a scrap Mobo !

Graham

Michael Karcher wrote:

larya wrote:
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
If it's ATX, ground the PS_ON pin.

See Wikipedia for Pinout.

Beware. It may not regulate properly with no load on the 5 or 12 V
output.

Graham

"larya" wrote in message
...
Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry

just fixed mine yesterday
replaceing the low imp caps on the
outputs.

"larya" wrote in message
...
Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry

just fixed mine yesterday
replaceing the low imp caps on the
outputs.

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=31105


boblarya wrote:

Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry

larya wrote:
Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..

No, but you're on-topic in here.
You can find lots of info about ATX power supplies he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX


Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...

You need to ground the power-on signal, which is the green wire.
If you want to use the PSU as a bench supply, you can simply snip the
green wire from the back of the ATX connector, & solder a switch between
it & one of the black wires.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Eeyore wrote:

Michael Karcher wrote:

larya wrote:
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
If it's ATX, ground the PS_ON pin.

See Wikipedia for Pinout.

Beware. It may not regulate properly with no load on the 5 or 12 V
output.

On every PSU I've tried it on, the fan seems to provide enough load for
the voltages to be okay.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Larter Inscribed thus:

Eeyore wrote:

Michael Karcher wrote:

larya wrote:
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
If it's ATX, ground the PS_ON pin.

See Wikipedia for Pinout.

Beware. It may not regulate properly with no load on the 5 or 12 V
output.

On every PSU I've tried it on, the fan seems to provide enough load
for the voltages to be okay.


A lot of the better ones have suitable loading built in ! More often
the PSU wont start up if it requires a minimum load, though some will
but don't regulate the output voltages properly. The regulation is
done with reference to the 5v rail, so that is the one that should be
loaded. Its wise to play safe and stick a load on anyway. I use a 10
ohm 10w resistor wired into a spare connector so that I can add or
remove it as needed. I also have a LED wired as well so that I
remember to switch off when working on an open case.

--
Best Reagrds:
Baron.

HavingBaron wrote:
Bob Larter Inscribed thus:

Eeyore wrote:
Michael Karcher wrote:

larya wrote:
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
If it's ATX, ground the PS_ON pin.

See Wikipedia for Pinout.
Beware. It may not regulate properly with no load on the 5 or 12 V
output.
On every PSU I've tried it on, the fan seems to provide enough load
for the voltages to be okay.


A lot of the better ones have suitable loading built in ! More often
the PSU wont start up if it requires a minimum load, though some will
but don't regulate the output voltages properly. The regulation is
done with reference to the 5v rail, so that is the one that should be
loaded. Its wise to play safe and stick a load on anyway. I use a 10
ohm 10w resistor wired into a spare connector so that I can add or
remove it as needed. I also have a LED wired as well so that I
remember to switch off when working on an open case.

having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a dummy
load helps.....

bob

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:37:39 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:



PlainBill wrote:

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:04:37 -0700 (PDT), larya
wrote:

Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry
Not a group per se, but the BadCaps forum -
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/index.php? - has a section on computer
power supplies. A large part of the discussion is about the
deficiencies of various vendors. One vendor actually glues iron
weights inside their power supplies so they weigh more. A heavy power
supply must be better, right?

I fixed an ATX supply by replacing 2 very obviously bulged caps on the
output side with ones from a scrap Mobo !

Graham
That can work. I'm reaching the conclusion that the proce of caps is
so low (at least here in the USA) that it is better to replace all
caps with new quality caps. At one time I was using an approach
similar to yours. After a while I accumulated a number of power
supplies that APPEARED to work well with a dummy load, but when
connected to a motherboard the result was an unstable system.

Bulging caps are a good indication that a cap has failed. Not all
failed caps bulge.

PlainBill

Baron wrote:

Bob Larter Inscribed thus:
Eeyore wrote:
Michael Karcher wrote:
larya wrote:

How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
If it's ATX, ground the PS_ON pin.

See Wikipedia for Pinout.

Beware. It may not regulate properly with no load on the 5 or 12 V
output.

On every PSU I've tried it on, the fan seems to provide enough load
for the voltages to be okay.

A lot of the better ones have suitable loading built in ! More often
the PSU wont start up if it requires a minimum load, though some will
but don't regulate the output voltages properly. The regulation is
done with reference to the 5v rail, so that is the one that should be
loaded. Its wise to play safe and stick a load on anyway. I use a 10
ohm 10w resistor wired into a spare connector so that I can add or
remove it as needed. I also have a LED wired as well so that I
remember to switch off when working on an open case.

I've heard of some where the feedback is taken as a mix of BOTH the 5V
and 12V loading. No guarantees though.

I agree that 'some' load on the 5V is likely best.

Graham

bob wrote:

having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a dummy
load helps.....

Not a bad idea.

Remember the Full Height 5 1/4's ? They took about 30-40 W.

Graham

PlainBill wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
PlainBill wrote:
larya wrote:

Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry
Not a group per se, but the BadCaps forum -
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/index.php? - has a section on computer
power supplies. A large part of the discussion is about the
deficiencies of various vendors. One vendor actually glues iron
weights inside their power supplies so they weigh more. A heavy power
supply must be better, right?

I fixed an ATX supply by replacing 2 very obviously bulged caps on the
output side with ones from a scrap Mobo !

That can work.

The scrap mobo was Dell and used 'name' capacitors that still looked in
excellent condition ( get an ESR meter if you really need to know ), whereas
the bulged caps in the PSU were classic 'no name' off- brands.


I'm reaching the conclusion that the proce of caps is
so low (at least here in the USA) that it is better to replace all
caps with new quality caps. At one time I was using an approach
similar to yours. After a while I accumulated a number of power
supplies that APPEARED to work well with a dummy load, but when
connected to a motherboard the result was an unstable system.

The problem I've found is that the caps they tend to use are unusually small
( or odd ) form factors. Typically tall and very small diameter. Not many
stockists have them.


Bulging caps are a good indication that a cap has failed.

Absolutely. Guaranteed in fact.


Not all failed caps bulge.

Indeed. Also look for electrolyte leakage around the base. Usually a white
deposit. It's corrosive too, so when replacing, clean it away.

Graham

john wrote:

"larya" wrote

Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry

just fixed mine yesterday
replaceing the low imp caps on the
outputs.

Very typical.

Also on a Mobo, check the LV regulator caps around the CPU etc.

Graham

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:06:59 +0100, Baron
put finger to keyboard and
composed:

A lot of the better ones have suitable loading built in ! More often
the PSU wont start up if it requires a minimum load, though some will
but don't regulate the output voltages properly. The regulation is
done with reference to the 5v rail ...

I haven't repaired many AT/ATX PSUs, but IME they usually (?) regulate
by sensing a weighted average of the +5V and +12V rails. This means
that the +5V and +12V rails move in opposite directions.

See
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...5?dmode=source

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:06:59 +0100, Baron
put finger to keyboard and
composed:

A lot of the better ones have suitable loading built in ! More often
the PSU wont start up if it requires a minimum load, though some will
but don't regulate the output voltages properly. The regulation is
done with reference to the 5v rail ...

I haven't repaired many AT/ATX PSUs, but IME they usually (?) regulate
by sensing a weighted average of the +5V and +12V rails. This means
that the +5V and +12V rails move in opposite directions.

See

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...5?dmode=source

- Franc Zabkar

Hi Franc,
Yes I've seen that and noticed the effect. But since the 5 volt rail is
or used to be the most critical to circuit function that is the one
that is usually most heavily controlled. You can pull the 12 volt rail
voltage around quite a bit without much effect on the 5 volt one.

A 5 amp step load on the 12 volt rail (ignoring transients) has almost
no effect on the 5 volt rail. The reverse is not true though as you
show.

But its very much academic if the PSU is functioning correctly. Bad
caps seem to be very much the cause of most PSU ills judging by the
number that seem to blow up with regular monotony ! Though I don't
bother repairing them nowadays, it being more cost effective to throw
them in the scrap metal bin and fit a new one.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Eeyore wrote:

bob wrote:

having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a dummy
load helps.....

Not a bad idea.

Remember the Full Height 5 1/4's ? They took about 30-40 W.

I used to own several ST-506s & ST-412s. Long gone now, of course.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

On Apr 25, 12:16*am, Bob Larter wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

bob wrote:

* having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a dummy
load helps.....

Not a bad idea.

Remember the Full Height 5 1/4's ? They took about 30-40 W.

I used to own several ST-506s & ST-412s. Long gone now, of course.

--

I still have a few Seagate 9GB 5.25" FH SCSI drives in external boxes
for my old AVID capture setups. I keep them around because they still
work and are OEM to the systems.

The problem I see with most PS supplies are cheap parts that fail when
the fans cooling them get clogged up with cig smoke or pet hair, dust,
etc. That and buying one that is too small for the load you are
applying.

How did DELL and eMachines get away with small 250W max rated supplies
in P4 3Ghz+ and Athlon 64 3000+ systems? if you added a decent gaming
video card and an extra HD you probably had voltage issues.

Hi!

How did DELL and eMachines get away with small 250W max
rated supplies in P4 3Ghz+ and Athlon 64 3000+ systems?

Dell underrates their power supplies *greatly*. I've never had a
problem with one, and they seem to be pretty well made, in line with
other quality brands.

As an example, the 305-watt rated unit (made by Lite-On) in my
Dimension 8300 is powering two hard drives, 2GB of installed RAM, an
ATI Radeon X1350, two optical drives, floppy drive and a full host of
PCI expansion cards. It has no problems, and has been doing that since
it was new. The air coming out of it is moderately warm.

At first it powered a 3.4GHz P4 Prescott which ran distributed.net
around the clock. Later, I switched to a 2.8GHz Northwood as the
Prescott was good only for putting out heat sufficient to warm a small
country.

The eMachines supplies have two things working against them--the first
being that in some cases they don't have working overvoltage
protection in place. This results in motherboards getting fried. I
haven't seen too many that I could say failed as result of running out
of capacity anyway.

And you could do worse, with a supply that lies about its
capabilities:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/psuthoughts/

William

Powermac wrote:
On Apr 25, 12:16 am, Bob Larter wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

bob wrote:
having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a dummy
load helps.....
Not a bad idea.
Remember the Full Height 5 1/4's ? They took about 30-40 W.
I used to own several ST-506s & ST-412s. Long gone now, of course.

--

I still have a few Seagate 9GB 5.25" FH SCSI drives in external boxes
for my old AVID capture setups. I keep them around because they still
work and are OEM to the systems.


Hard disks last a very long time if you're careful to give them enough
airflow to stay cool.

The problem I see with most PS supplies are cheap parts that fail when
the fans cooling them get clogged up with cig smoke or pet hair, dust,
etc. That and buying one that is too small for the load you are
applying.

Ayup.

How did DELL and eMachines get away with small 250W max rated supplies
in P4 3Ghz+ and Athlon 64 3000+ systems? if you added a decent gaming
video card and an extra HD you probably had voltage issues.

But most people don't do that.


--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Powermac wrote:

On Apr 25, 12:16Â*am, Bob Larter wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

bob wrote:

having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a
dummy load helps.....

Not a bad idea.

Remember the Full Height 5 1/4's ? They took about 30-40 W.

I used to own several ST-506s & ST-412s. Long gone now, of course.

--

I have to add "Me Too" I have a genuine Apple ST405 from 1982. Four
platter linear actuator. I don't remember how big it was, 10Mb maybe !

I still have a few Seagate 9GB 5.25" FH SCSI drives in external boxes
for my old AVID capture setups. I keep them around because they still
work and are OEM to the systems.

The problem I see with most PS supplies are cheap parts that fail when
the fans cooling them get clogged up with cig smoke or pet hair, dust,
etc. That and buying one that is too small for the load you are
applying.

I agree. Pay cheap, Get cheap !

How did DELL and eMachines get away with small 250W max rated supplies
in P4 3Ghz+ and Athlon 64 3000+ systems? if you added a decent gaming
video card and an extra HD you probably had voltage issues.

I'm sure that was quite deliberate ! Remember the "Warranty Void" if
you opened the case. Often enforced by a sticker over the removable
case panels. Huge numbers of people caused damage by fitting extra
drives, video cards and CD/DVD burners without understanding what they
were doing. Like everything else today... Pared down to the bone to
cut costs !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Apr 25, 4:25*am, Powermac wrote:
How did DELL and eMachines get away with small 250W max rated supplies
in P4 3Ghz+ and Athlon 64 3000+ systems? if you added a decent gaming
video card and an extra HD you probably had voltage issues.

Learn what engineers know and what many computer assemblers don't
grasp. That 250 watt supply in a Dell is also called 360 watts when
sold to computer assemblers. Neither lied. Only one is providing a
more honest number. Latter is selling to A+ Certified Computer techs
who need not even know how electricity works to be certified.

Lack of technical knowledge is why so many power supply myths are
believed by a majority. Other popular myths involve thermal compound,
hardware damage due to heat, protectors, and shotgunning. Myths
traceable to untrained computer assemblers. So many as to suggest why
so much electronic and computer design must go overseas AND why so
many engineers (probably a majority) in the Silicon Valley are now
immigrants.

A choice is offered. To know only because the majority promote that
myth. Or to know by also learning why – which means numbers and the
underlying reasons why.

Dell does not underrate their supplies. Overrated is technical
knowledge of people who never first learned basic electrical
principles and then post as if knowledgeable. That has even created a
market ripe with power supplies that are missing essential functions.
They are selling to the electrically naive. But then this should be
obvious. If he does not provide the many technical reasons why - and
numbers - then assume myths.

Powermac wrote:

Bob Larter wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
bob wrote:

having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a dummy
load helps.....

Not a bad idea.

Remember the Full Height 5 1/4's ? They took about 30-40 W.

I used to own several ST-506s & ST-412s. Long gone now, of course.

I still have a few Seagate 9GB 5.25" FH SCSI drives in external boxes
for my old AVID capture setups. I keep them around because they still
work and are OEM to the systems.

Unfortunately we had Micropolis 9 GB drives for Lightworks that had a fatal
manufacturing error that consigned them all to scrap after a year or two.


The problem I see with most PS supplies are cheap parts that fail when
the fans cooling them get clogged up with cig smoke or pet hair, dust,
etc. That and buying one that is too small for the load you are
applying.

I have one ancient PC ( my old DOS box ) I've replaced the fan in twice.
Bearing failure, nothing else.


How did DELL and eMachines get away with small 250W max rated supplies
in P4 3Ghz+ and Athlon 64 3000+ systems? if you added a decent gaming
video card and an extra HD you probably had voltage issues.

Probably because they are *real* watts. The Asian ones are somewhat
optimistic.

Graham

Baron wrote:

Powermac wrote:

On Apr 25, 12:16Â am, Bob Larter wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
bob wrote:

having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a
dummy load helps.....

Not a bad idea.

Remember the Full Height 5 1/4's ? They took about 30-40 W.

I used to own several ST-506s & ST-412s. Long gone now, of course.

--

I have to add "Me Too" I have a genuine Apple ST405 from 1982. Four
platter linear actuator. I don't remember how big it was, 10Mb maybe !

5MB unformatted. That's where the 5 in 405 comes from. 5 was the form factor
- F/H 5 1/4".

Graham

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:17:18 -0700 (PDT), "William R. Walsh"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

The eMachines supplies have two things working against them--the first
being that in some cases they don't have working overvoltage
protection in place. This results in motherboards getting fried. I
haven't seen too many that I could say failed as result of running out
of capacity anyway.

And you could do worse, with a supply that lies about its
capabilities:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/psuthoughts/

I have a fake ATX PSU labelled as 400W, yet the Schottky rectifiers on
the secondary side can only deliver 200W max. Although it's still
working, I replaced it because the +5V and +12V rails were moving
about too much during load changes, eg when my CPU cooler program
kicked in.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

westom wrote:

Dell does not underrate their supplies. Overrated is technical
knowledge of people who never first learned basic electrical
principles and then post as if knowledgeable.

Westom = troll. Please ignore the patronising ramblings of this idiot.

--
Adrian C

Eeyore wrote:



Baron wrote:

Powermac wrote:

On Apr 25, 12:16Â am, Bob Larter wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
bob wrote:

having a old boat anchor disk drive laying around to use as a
dummy load helps.....

Not a bad idea.

Remember the Full Height 5 1/4's ? They took about 30-40 W.

I used to own several ST-506s & ST-412s. Long gone now, of course.

--

I have to add "Me Too" I have a genuine Apple ST405 from 1982. Four
platter linear actuator. I don't remember how big it was, 10Mb maybe
!

5MB unformatted. That's where the 5 in 405 comes from. 5 was the form
factor
- F/H 5 1/4".

Graham

Thanks. Its a real dinosaur by todays standards. :-)

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Apr 26, 5:21*pm, Adrian C wrote:
Please ignore the patronising ramblings of this idiot.

If the technicals were wrong, the poster would have challenged the
facts. Those who cannot attack the messenger. IOW Adrian is
declaring he does not have sufficient knowledge to disagree.

A 250 watt Dell supply may be sold to the technically naive as a 360
watts supply. Neither number is wrong. Others who also have this
rumored 'underrated' supply aslo had no power problems. Only the
naive would post without technical facts. And that is only when I
start posting - the challenge the technically naive to demonstrate
'why' they know. Adrian could not probably for good (under educated)
reason - an insult he earned by replying without facts and numbers.

"larya" wrote in message
...
Is there a group for repairing computer power supplies?..
Question... I have the power supply out of the computer...
Besides pluging it in... how do you turn it 'on'...
The front panel on / off switch connects to the mother board..
How can I turn the power supply 'on' at the power supply?...
Larry

to test them i use a PC/SPS TESTER
just plug the 20/24 pin connecter in and
plug in the power, leds idicate health of
supply.

On Apr 27, 12:58*am, "ZACK`" wrote:
to test them i use a PC/SPS TESTER
just plug the 20/24 pin connecter in and
plug in the power, leds idicate health of
supply.

Tester can identify a defective supply. But it obviously cannot
report a good supply. Ciritical to testing a supply are voltage
numbers when supply is under maximum load. Tester can provide that
load and provides no numbers.