We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese goods.
Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one of their
regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather swivel chair
with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on. Thirty quid
(about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night, the man
delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the really good
thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the quality of it.
Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing that you would
'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is superbly made.
Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact there are even some
"extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and cover caps. Every hole
lined up where it should, and every hex-head screw, which were pre-treated
with a thread locking compound, drove straight in without any effort, using
the good quality hex wrench that was provided. Even the assembly
instructions and safety warnings were in full proper English (as well as
other languages), and the diagrams were properly drawn, rather than the
'rice break' sketches we have become used to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what chance is
western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume that
electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen several 'Made in
China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built, and have
achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio groups, and at
something like a quarter of the price of similar items of western
manufacture.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...
We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese
goods.
Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one of their
regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather swivel
chair
with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on. Thirty quid
(about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night, the man
delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the really good
thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the quality of it.
Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing that you would
'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is superbly made.
Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact there are even some
"extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and cover caps. Every
hole
lined up where it should, and every hex-head screw, which were pre-treated
with a thread locking compound, drove straight in without any effort,
using
the good quality hex wrench that was provided. Even the assembly
instructions and safety warnings were in full proper English (as well as
other languages), and the diagrams were properly drawn, rather than the
'rice break' sketches we have become used to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what chance
is
western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume that
electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen several 'Made
in
China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built, and have
achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio groups, and at
something like a quarter of the price of similar items of western
manufacture.

Arfa



But part of the fun was trying to interpret instructions in only nominal
English like
"Turn line of fleche to plate spiggot mark A to fixture inverted B"


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

The solution to this problem is to not buy Chinese goods. Or Korean goods,
or Japanese goods, or whatever. Another possible solution is to force China
to let its currency rise in value. A third solution is to prevent
incorporated businesses from setting up manufacturing overseas, which is
fundamentally immoral.

One of the arguments in favor of "free" trade is that each country will
specialize in whatever it does best. Baloney. All human beings are equally
intelligent and capable. As the Chinese realize that Japan's success was not
due to lower prices as much as it was to consistent high quality, they will
produce products that further destroy manufacturing in Western countries.
Just wait until they start manufacturing high-quality cars that sell for
$4000.

It is possible to imagine an inverted world in which the "third-world"
countries do most of the manufacturing, while the "first-world" and
"second-world" countries produce most of the food. (Notice I said
"imagine".)

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese
goods. Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one of
their regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather
swivel chair with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on. Thirty
quid (about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night, the man
delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the really good
thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the quality of it.
Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing that you would
'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is superbly made.
Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact there are even some
"extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and cover caps. Every
hole lined up where it should, and every hex-head screw, which were
pre-treated with a thread locking compound, drove straight in without any
effort, using the good quality hex wrench that was provided. Even the
assembly instructions and safety warnings were in full proper English (as
well as other languages), and the diagrams were properly drawn, rather
than the 'rice break' sketches we have become used to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what chance
is western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume
that electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen several
'Made in China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built,
and have achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio groups,
and at something like a quarter of the price of similar items of western
manufacture.

Arfa


God help us if the Chinese get serious... Thanks for the warning.

Dave

Arfa Daily wrote:
We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese goods.
Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one of their
regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather swivel chair
with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on. Thirty quid
(about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night, the man
delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the really good
thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the quality of it.
Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing that you would
'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is superbly made.
Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact there are even some
"extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and cover caps. Every hole
lined up where it should, and every hex-head screw, which were pre-treated
with a thread locking compound, drove straight in without any effort, using
the good quality hex wrench that was provided. Even the assembly
instructions and safety warnings were in full proper English (as well as
other languages), and the diagrams were properly drawn, rather than the
'rice break' sketches we have become used to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what chance is
western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume that
electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen several 'Made in
China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built, and have
achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio groups, and at
something like a quarter of the price of similar items of western
manufacture.

Arfa


Arfa.... I bought the same chair here in Toronto from Staples and while
I picked it up at the store, I found exactly the same thing. I was
really impressed how the small parts were blister packed and the thread
lock on the screws.
Regards
Lee

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
The solution to this problem is to not buy Chinese goods. Or Korean goods,
or Japanese goods, or whatever.

This is *a* solution, but not really a very practical one. For a start, it
might be hard to know where something is made, as in for instance buying
something on the 'net, as this chair was. I might have made a reasonable
guess that it was a 'Made in China' item, but had no real way of knowing
until it arrived. If you want *any* kind of mainstream consumer electronic
item now, it would be hard to find a domestically manufactured example. Do
you, for instance, have any indiginous TV or DVD manufacturing in the US now
? We haven't had in the UK for years ...


Another possible solution is to force China
to let its currency rise in value. A third solution is to prevent
incorporated businesses from setting up manufacturing overseas, which is
fundamentally immoral.

But is it ? Surely, it's equally immoral for any country to try to dictate
to its indiginous companies, how they should construct their business model
in order to turn a profit ? And if you are then going to be fair about it,
do you stop all of the foreign companies that set up and invest in the US or
the UK to avoid import restrictions or whatever, from doing so ? Would there
be anybody in the US ready and waiting to take up the slack in lost jobs,
that would result ? Setting aside the 'exploitation' arguments that
immediately get thrown into the arena when you start talking foreign
manufacturing, are American and European companies doing a bad thing by
investing in those 'third world' countries, and would the inhabitants be
better off, if the manufacturing companies were not there giving them work ?


One of the arguments in favor of "free" trade is that each country will
specialize in whatever it does best. Baloney. All human beings are equally
intelligent and capable. As the Chinese realize that Japan's success was
not
due to lower prices as much as it was to consistent high quality, they
will
produce products that further destroy manufacturing in Western countries.
Just wait until they start manufacturing high-quality cars that sell for
$4000.

I'm not too sure about that one. Setting globalisation of manufacturing
aside for a minute, I think that there is still a large degree of
specialisation attached to various countries around the world, albeit with
somewhat fuzzier edges than was the case a couple of decades back. I'm not
at all sure that I agree with you with regard to the Japanese success story.
I think maybe you have a short memory, or possibly, Europe saw more Japanese
manufacturing output, than the US did, in the early days. Here, most
Japanese imported stuff was known as "Jap Crap", and was especially known
for being plastic and 'cheap and nasty'. Their cars were well known for just
rotting away into rust buckets, almost before they needed their first
roadworthiness test at 3 years old. "Consistent high quality" is the last
description that most people would have used. It was only as they learnt
their lessons, that the quality improved, to the point where it overtook
western manufactured goods, probably around the early to late 70s, when they
really started global marketing of highly targeted consumer goods like TV
sets, VCRs, motorcycles, cars and so on. The Koreans already manufacture
pretty reasonable cars at very cheap prices. A few visits back, I hired a
car on-airport in the US, and it was a Korean KIA Sedona. I drove it around
for two weeks and, although it was not the 'smartest' car on the block, with
the most features or top notch finish, it was never-the-less perfectly
adequate and comfortable, and did exactly what it said on the can. Certainly
no worse than some bottom end Fords that I have driven.



It is possible to imagine an inverted world in which the "third-world"
countries do most of the manufacturing, while the "first-world" and
"second-world" countries produce most of the food. (Notice I said
"imagine".)


And that would be bad because ... ?

Arfa

Another possible solution is to force China
to let its currency rise in value. A third solution is to prevent
incorporated businesses from setting up manufacturing overseas, which is
fundamentally immoral.

But is it ? Surely, it's equally immoral for any country to try to dictate
to its indiginous companies, how they should construct their business
model
in order to turn a profit ? And if you are then going to be fair about it,
do you stop all of the foreign companies that set up and invest in the US
or
the UK to avoid import restrictions or whatever, from doing so ? Would
there
be anybody in the US ready and waiting to take up the slack in lost jobs,
that would result ? Setting aside the 'exploitation' arguments that
immediately get thrown into the arena when you start talking foreign
manufacturing, are American and European companies doing a bad thing by
investing in those 'third world' countries, and would the inhabitants be
better off, if the manufacturing companies were not there giving them work
?

It is fundamentally immoral, based on the assumptions underlying the
creation of limited-liability corporations. I'll explain it, if you want.


One of the arguments in favor of "free" trade is that each country will
specialize in whatever it does best. Baloney. All human beings are
equally
intelligent and capable. As the Chinese realize that Japan's success was
not due to lower prices as much as it was to consistent high quality,
they
will produce products that further destroy manufacturing in Western
countries.
Just wait until they start manufacturing high-quality cars that sell for
$4000.

I'm not too sure about that one. Setting globalisation of manufacturing
aside for a minute, I think that there is still a large degree of
specialisation attached to various countries around the world, albeit with
somewhat fuzzier edges than was the case a couple of decades back. I'm not
at all sure that I agree with you with regard to the Japanese success
story.
I think maybe you have a short memory, or possibly, Europe saw more
Japanese
manufacturing output, than the US did, in the early days. Here, most
Japanese imported stuff was known as "Jap Crap", and was especially known
for being plastic and 'cheap and nasty'. Their cars were well known for
just
rotting away into rust buckets, almost before they needed their first
roadworthiness test at 3 years old. "Consistent high quality" is the last
description that most people would have used. It was only as they learnt
their lessons, that the quality improved, to the point where it overtook
western manufactured goods, probably around the early to late 70s, when
they
really started global marketing of highly targeted consumer goods like TV
sets, VCRs, motorcycles, cars and so on. The Koreans already manufacture
pretty reasonable cars at very cheap prices. A few visits back, I hired a
car on-airport in the US, and it was a Korean KIA Sedona. I drove it
around
for two weeks and, although it was not the 'smartest' car on the block,
with
the most features or top notch finish, it was never-the-less perfectly
adequate and comfortable, and did exactly what it said on the can.
Certainly
no worse than some bottom end Fords that I have driven.

As Marty McFly said to Doc Brown... "Gee, Doc, all the best stuff comes from
Japan."

I didn't say that Japanese products are all good, or have always been good.

The Japanese made good photo equipment not long after WWII. (There was a
recent Popular Photography article about this. Nikon and Canon weren't
successful merely because their cameras and lenses cost less.) And though
there was plenty of "Jap crap" in the early '50s, the mid-'50s saw the rise
of the Japanese consumer-electronics business, which gradually overwhelmed
the American (partly with Richard Nixon's help).

One reason for Japanese success was their recognition that they were
fundamentally an exporting nation. They therefore paid attention not only to
quality, but to reliability. This is the reason Japanese electronics tend to
break down less often than American or European. (American products,
regardless of their cost, seem to have problems with poor solder joints.)

The famous statistician W. Edwards Deming famously said that "You cannot
_inspect_ quality into a product." That is, you can't discard the bad
samples and expect the remainder to be of high quality. The quality and
reliability of anything depend on its basic design, and how well it's
manufactured. American companies learned this too late. (See the Wikipedia
article.)


It is possible to imagine an inverted world in which the "third-world"
countries do most of the manufacturing, while the "first-world" and
"second-world" countries produce most of the food. (Notice I said
"imagine".)

And that would be bad because ... ?

It wouldn't necessarily be bad, but it would be weird.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese
goods. Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one of
their regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather
swivel chair with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on. Thirty
quid (about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night, the man
delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the really good
thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the quality of it.
Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing that you would
'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is superbly made.
Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact there are even some
"extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and cover caps. Every
hole lined up where it should, and every hex-head screw, which were
pre-treated with a thread locking compound, drove straight in without any
effort, using the good quality hex wrench that was provided. Even the
assembly instructions and safety warnings were in full proper English (as
well as other languages), and the diagrams were properly drawn, rather
than the 'rice break' sketches we have become used to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what chance
is western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume
that electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen several
'Made in China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built,
and have achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio groups,
and at something like a quarter of the price of similar items of western
manufacture.

Arfa

Here in Australia, recently a couple of Chinese produced goods developed
notoriety for being dangerous, however I have also found many Chinese made
products to be of very high quality. I have also been concerned at what the
future is for the West with all the cheap and high quality goods flooding
the market.

Not to mention, in possibly a separate OT thread, about the infrastructure
of Western corporations (such as call centres, hr, etc.) being run out of
third world countries, some of which do it very efficiently.

As far as us being food producers, well, it's feasible for countries like
China to gear themselves up for that too. We seem to be surviving on "the
mineral boom" here right now. I don't know what the long-term future will be
for us though.

Henry.

On Nov 30, 2:11 pm, "hemyd" wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message

...



We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese
goods. Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one of
their regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather
swivel chair with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on. Thirty
quid (about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night, the man
delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the really good
thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the quality of it.
Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing that you would
'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is superbly made.
Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact there are even some
"extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and cover caps. Every
hole lined up where it should, and every hex-head screw, which were
pre-treated with a thread locking compound, drove straight in without any
effort, using the good quality hex wrench that was provided. Even the
assembly instructions and safety warnings were in full proper English (as
well as other languages), and the diagrams were properly drawn, rather
than the 'rice break' sketches we have become used to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what chance
is western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume
that electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen several
'Made in China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built,
and have achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio groups,
and at something like a quarter of the price of similar items of western
manufacture.

Arfa

Here in Australia, recently a couple of Chinese produced goods developed
notoriety for being dangerous, however I have also found many Chinese made
products to be of very high quality. I have also been concerned at what the
future is for the West with all the cheap and high quality goods flooding
the market.

Not to mention, in possibly a separate OT thread, about the infrastructure
of Western corporations (such as call centres, hr, etc.) being run out of
third world countries, some of which do it very efficiently.

As far as us being food producers, well, it's feasible for countries like
China to gear themselves up for that too. We seem to be surviving on "the
mineral boom" here right now. I don't know what the long-term future will be
for us though.

Henry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow I don't think people in a country can survive very long
selling hamburgers and insurance policies to each other. You have to
manufacture something or you'l be dead in a couple of generations.

hr(bob) wrote:
Somehow I don't think people in a country can survive very long
selling hamburgers and insurance policies to each other. You have to
manufacture something or you'l be dead in a couple of generations.

I think the idea is to mark up what others manufacture.

--
Angry American flags attack Hillary Clinton!

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:44:33 GMT, "Arfa Daily"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese goods.
Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one of their
regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather swivel chair
with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on. Thirty quid
(about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night, the man
delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the really good
thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the quality of it.
Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing that you would
'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is superbly made.
Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact there are even some
"extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and cover caps. Every hole
lined up where it should, and every hex-head screw, which were pre-treated
with a thread locking compound, drove straight in without any effort, using
the good quality hex wrench that was provided.

Both my swivel chairs have broken after a couple of years of use. I
repaired one (by drilling an existing bracket and adding a bolt), but
the other chair needs to be welded.

Twenty years ago my US employer got away with selling gas-lift swivel
chairs at extortionate prices by calling them Pneumatic Seating Units.
These lasted no longer than the usual junk.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Lee wrote:

snip

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they
are a 'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west,
what chance is western manufacturing going to stand in the years to
come ? I assume that electronic goods are going the same way, as I
have now seen several 'Made in China' valve (tube) amplifiers that
were similarly well built, and have achieved some degree of acclaim
over on one of the audio groups, and at something like a quarter of
the price of similar items of western manufacture.

Arfa

Arfa.... I bought the same chair here in Toronto from Staples and while
I picked it up at the store, I found exactly the same thing. I was
really impressed how the small parts were blister packed and the thread
lock on the screws.
Regards
Lee

When my 10 yo daughter decided to learn guitar, she used a cheap (I mean
*really* cheap) Chinese acoustic. It worked okay, but was no
masterpiece. When she joined a band, we decided it was time for an
electric.

I searched want ads, pawn shops and talked to friends. (I'm in
Nashville, after all.) I couldn't come up with a better deal than the
$100 Chinese Ibanez Les Paul Jr from the Guitar Center. The instrument
got very good reviews on the web. It is very nice--now--after a few
trips back to GC...had a bad habit of breaking E-strings due to a burr
on the bridge.

Aside from that, it's got a nice straight neck, good electronics and
decent tuners. It may not last forever, but it's great for a
pre-teener's first rock & roll guitar.

I figure it will be around 5-10 years before the 'average' quality of
goods imported from China will be superb, like what happened in Japan,
only quicker. By then the era of cheap (but good) Chinese goods will go
the way of cheap (but good) Japanese stuff. That will be due partly to
the evolution of the goods, as well as the improved economic conditions
for the Chinese people.

Better get it while you can.

jak

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese
goods. Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one of
their regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather
swivel chair with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on. Thirty
quid (about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night, the man
delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the really good
thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the quality of it.
Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing that you would
'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is superbly made.
Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact there are even some
"extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and cover caps. Every
hole lined up where it should, and every hex-head screw, which were
pre-treated with a thread locking compound, drove straight in without any
effort, using the good quality hex wrench that was provided. Even the
assembly instructions and safety warnings were in full proper English (as
well as other languages), and the diagrams were properly drawn, rather
than the 'rice break' sketches we have become used to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what chance
is western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume
that electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen several
'Made in China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built,
and have achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio groups,
and at something like a quarter of the price of similar items of western
manufacture.

Arfa

They may well be the next Japan, of course the question is how long can they
sustain it? From what I hear, there's a big problem with pollution in China,
as well as working conditions and wages are terrible.

Arfa Daily wrote:
snip
sets, VCRs, motorcycles, cars and so on. The Koreans already manufacture
pretty reasonable cars at very cheap prices. A few visits back, I hired a
car on-airport in the US, and it was a Korean KIA Sedona. I drove it around
for two weeks and, although it was not the 'smartest' car on the block, with
the most features or top notch finish, it was never-the-less perfectly
adequate and comfortable, and did exactly what it said on the can. Certainly
no worse than some bottom end Fords that I have driven.

I rented a Hyundai Sonata last year in San Jose...drove it on a winery
tour in the San Jose Mountains, an up through San Francisco and on north
from there. I took that car on almost every conceivable kind of road
from one-lane gravel in the mountains, to the freeway, and back down the
coast to SJ.

I must say, I was *very* impressed...so much so that if I were ever in
the market for a new car (not likely), I'd certainly consider this
one...quiet, comfortable, nimble, with oodles of trunk space.

This year I rented a Ford Fusion for a week. It was not even in the
same class, IMHO. It was noisy and felt unrefined and
underpowered...yet costs more than the Hyundai.

It is possible to imagine an inverted world in which the "third-world"
countries do most of the manufacturing, while the "first-world" and
"second-world" countries produce most of the food. (Notice I said
"imagine".)

It's not difficult to imagine, 'cause it's happening now. Despite my
admiration for the fruits of Asian labor, I still wish it wasn't so. I
long for the almost lost tradition of skilled workers in this country,
producing quality goods that the rest of the world covets. Partly it
has to do with prestige, I suppose. More than that, however is the
affinity to the production of tangibles, stuff one can hold up and
admire...tradition, I guess.

And that would be bad because ... ?

I'm not enough of an economist to understand the ramifications, but it
seems to me that we can't buy 'everything' without selling *anything*.
Perhaps I'm naive, but we send a lot more money out of this country than
we take in. Some day that's gotta come to a bad end....

jak
Arfa

William Sommerwerck wrote:
Another possible solution is to force China
to let its currency rise in value. A third solution is to prevent
incorporated businesses from setting up manufacturing overseas, which is
fundamentally immoral.
But is it ? Surely, it's equally immoral for any country to try to dictate
to its indiginous companies, how they should construct their business
model
in order to turn a profit ? And if you are then going to be fair about it,
do you stop all of the foreign companies that set up and invest in the US
or
the UK to avoid import restrictions or whatever, from doing so ? Would
there
be anybody in the US ready and waiting to take up the slack in lost jobs,
that would result ? Setting aside the 'exploitation' arguments that
immediately get thrown into the arena when you start talking foreign
manufacturing, are American and European companies doing a bad thing by
investing in those 'third world' countries, and would the inhabitants be
better off, if the manufacturing companies were not there giving them work
?

It is fundamentally immoral, based on the assumptions underlying the
creation of limited-liability corporations. I'll explain it, if you want.

I think you'd better explain that. Fundamentally immoral? Come
on...especially when you conclude by saying:


And that would be bad because ... ?

It wouldn't necessarily be bad, but it would be weird.

jak


jak

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:Xt44j.857$UG1.496@trnddc01...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese
goods. Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one
of their regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather
swivel chair with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on.
Thirty quid (about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday night,
the man delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the
really good thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the
quality of it. Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing
that you would 'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair is
superbly made. Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact
there are even some "extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws and
cover caps. Every hole lined up where it should, and every hex-head
screw, which were pre-treated with a thread locking compound, drove
straight in without any effort, using the good quality hex wrench that
was provided. Even the assembly instructions and safety warnings were in
full proper English (as well as other languages), and the diagrams were
properly drawn, rather than the 'rice break' sketches we have become used
to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what chance
is western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume
that electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen several
'Made in China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built,
and have achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio groups,
and at something like a quarter of the price of similar items of western
manufacture.

Arfa

They may well be the next Japan, of course the question is how long can
they sustain it? From what I hear, there's a big problem with pollution in
China, as well as working conditions and wages are terrible.


The 'working conditions and wages' one is interesting (sorry all, that this
has got so far OT - I wasn't expecting it to generate quite so much
interest, but most of it does have at least a tangential impact on servicing
!)

I saw a banner headline in one of the newspapers that I read a couple of
weeks ago, on just this issue. You may be aware that we have a new leader of
the existing government here in the UK. He is nothing like as 'charismatic'
as Blair was, and the political sharks are seeing this as an opportunity to
give them a good kicking, and seek to discredit them in any way that they
can. It turns out that some senior minister - I think it was even the trade
minister (!) but I could be wrong - has some relation that owns tea or
coffee or some such plantations, and the headline screamed that they were
only being paid what to us, was some ridiculously small amount of a pound a
day - might have been more or less but you get the picture. I think there
was also something about conditions that they were sleeping 10 to a room or
something. Anyway, when you got past the headlines, and looked into it a
bit, turned out that the average wage in that particular country was only
like half what they were paying, and the 10 to a room thing was in a
dormitory that was provided by the company for the workers to 'sleep over'
at the end of a shift, if they lived too far away to travel, which many did,
as these were the only major employer for miles around.

So, whilst it's easy for us all to jump on the 'pay and conditions' issue as
a moral excuse for not supporting third world manufacturing, it might not
always be quite as black and white as it appears. It's also part of the
'west is best' culture, that seeks to convert the rest of the world to what
we think is 'right' but that's another whole story !

That's not to say that there are not western companies who *are* exploiting
such people, but probably not quite to the degree that some would have us
believe ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:Xt44j.857$UG1.496@trnddc01...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese
goods. Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me one
of their regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded leather
swivel chair with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on.
Thirty quid (about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday
night,
the man delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the
really good thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the
quality of it. Really good stout shipping box with none of the printing
that you would 'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair
is
superbly made. Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact
there are even some "extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws
and
cover caps. Every hole lined up where it should, and every hex-head
screw, which were pre-treated with a thread locking compound, drove
straight in without any effort, using the good quality hex wrench that
was provided. Even the assembly instructions and safety warnings were
in
full proper English (as well as other languages), and the diagrams were
properly drawn, rather than the 'rice break' sketches we have become
used
to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they are
a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what
chance
is western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I assume
that electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen
several
'Made in China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well built,
and have achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio
groups,
and at something like a quarter of the price of similar items of
western
manufacture.

Arfa

They may well be the next Japan, of course the question is how long can
they sustain it? From what I hear, there's a big problem with pollution
in
China, as well as working conditions and wages are terrible.


The 'working conditions and wages' one is interesting (sorry all, that
this
has got so far OT - I wasn't expecting it to generate quite so much
interest, but most of it does have at least a tangential impact on
servicing
!)

I saw a banner headline in one of the newspapers that I read a couple of
weeks ago, on just this issue. You may be aware that we have a new leader
of
the existing government here in the UK. He is nothing like as
'charismatic'
as Blair was, and the political sharks are seeing this as an opportunity
to
give them a good kicking, and seek to discredit them in any way that they
can. It turns out that some senior minister - I think it was even the
trade
minister (!) but I could be wrong - has some relation that owns tea or
coffee or some such plantations, and the headline screamed that they were
only being paid what to us, was some ridiculously small amount of a pound
a
day - might have been more or less but you get the picture. I think there
was also something about conditions that they were sleeping 10 to a room
or
something. Anyway, when you got past the headlines, and looked into it a
bit, turned out that the average wage in that particular country was only
like half what they were paying, and the 10 to a room thing was in a
dormitory that was provided by the company for the workers to 'sleep over'
at the end of a shift, if they lived too far away to travel, which many
did,
as these were the only major employer for miles around.

So, whilst it's easy for us all to jump on the 'pay and conditions' issue
as
a moral excuse for not supporting third world manufacturing, it might not
always be quite as black and white as it appears. It's also part of the
'west is best' culture, that seeks to convert the rest of the world to
what
we think is 'right' but that's another whole story !

That's not to say that there are not western companies who *are*
exploiting
such people, but probably not quite to the degree that some would have us
believe ...

Arfa



Quoting that someone earns 10 dollars a day, or whatever, is meaningless.
The method of comparison is how many pints of milk, or some other basic
necessity ,could he buy for one hours work.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"jakdedert" wrote in message
...

be anybody in the US ready and waiting to take up the slack in lost
jobs, that would result? Setting aside the 'exploitation' arguments that
immediately get thrown into the arena when you start talking foreign
manufacturing, are American and European companies doing a bad thing
by investing in those 'third world' countries, and would the inhabitants
be
better off, if the manufacturing companies were not there giving them
work.

Yes, they are doing a bad thing. US companies are not obliged to give people
in other countries work. Why should American workers suffer to benefit
someone else?


It is fundamentally immoral, based on the assumptions underlying
the creation of limited-liability corporations. I'll explain it, if you
want.

I think you'd better explain that. Fundamentally immoral?

Here we go with another major argument.

Incorporated businesses have a privilege not granted to individuals --
limited liability. In general, the people who incorporate are not liable for
more than the money they initially invest in the business. This is not true
of unincorporated individuals, who are responsible for all debts their
businesses incur.

Why are corporations granted that privilege? The idea is to encourage the
creation of large or risky businesses that would not be possible or
practical if the people investing were responsible for the business's debts.
(Think about this before you rush to object.)

Large or risky businesses are potentially a benefit to society, right? So
the ultimate purpose of limited-liability corporations is to benefit
society, not to benefit the investors. The investors therefore have an
obligation to society in return for the economic privileges they receive.

One of these obligations is to employ people in the business's country, not
send jobs overseas. They are also obliged to pay taxes, just as individuals
do. (I no longer buy Stanley products, after they incorporated overseas to
avoid American taxes. Wouldn't it be great if _individuals_ could do that?)

This is ALL I will say on this subject. I will not get into further
discussion. If you think that businesses exist for no other reason than to
make a profit for their stockholders, that they have no social or moral
obligations to the societies which permit their creation and give them
special rights... What can I say?

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:Xt44j.857$UG1.496@trnddc01...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
We see a lot of stuff on here from time to time, about crappy Chinese
goods. Well, a couple of days ago, my usual office supplier sent me
one
of their regular e-mail fliers, on which was a high-back padded
leather
swivel chair with gas lift, castors, arms, rocker action and so on.
Thirty quid (about$60) delivered. I ordered it on the 'net Tuesday
night,
the man delivered it Thursday lunchtime. How good is that ? But the
really good thing about this chair, and the point of the post, is the
quality of it. Really good stout shipping box with none of the
printing
that you would 'traditionally' associate with Chinese goods. The chair
is
superbly made. Not a stitch out of place. No missing parts - in fact
there are even some "extra parts" set into the blister pack of screws
and
cover caps. Every hole lined up where it should, and every hex-head
screw, which were pre-treated with a thread locking compound, drove
straight in without any effort, using the good quality hex wrench that
was provided. Even the assembly instructions and safety warnings were
in
full proper English (as well as other languages), and the diagrams
were
properly drawn, rather than the 'rice break' sketches we have become
used
to.

If the Chinese are going to churn out stuff like this now that they
are
a
'recognised' industrial power trading properly with the west, what
chance
is western manufacturing going to stand in the years to come ? I
assume
that electronic goods are going the same way, as I have now seen
several
'Made in China' valve (tube) amplifiers that were similarly well
built,
and have achieved some degree of acclaim over on one of the audio
groups,
and at something like a quarter of the price of similar items of
western
manufacture.

Arfa

They may well be the next Japan, of course the question is how long can
they sustain it? From what I hear, there's a big problem with pollution
in
China, as well as working conditions and wages are terrible.


The 'working conditions and wages' one is interesting (sorry all, that
this
has got so far OT - I wasn't expecting it to generate quite so much
interest, but most of it does have at least a tangential impact on
servicing
!)

I saw a banner headline in one of the newspapers that I read a couple of
weeks ago, on just this issue. You may be aware that we have a new leader
of
the existing government here in the UK. He is nothing like as
'charismatic'
as Blair was, and the political sharks are seeing this as an opportunity
to
give them a good kicking, and seek to discredit them in any way that they
can. It turns out that some senior minister - I think it was even the
trade
minister (!) but I could be wrong - has some relation that owns tea or
coffee or some such plantations, and the headline screamed that they were
only being paid what to us, was some ridiculously small amount of a pound
a
day - might have been more or less but you get the picture. I think there
was also something about conditions that they were sleeping 10 to a room
or
something. Anyway, when you got past the headlines, and looked into it a
bit, turned out that the average wage in that particular country was only
like half what they were paying, and the 10 to a room thing was in a
dormitory that was provided by the company for the workers to 'sleep
over'
at the end of a shift, if they lived too far away to travel, which many
did,
as these were the only major employer for miles around.

So, whilst it's easy for us all to jump on the 'pay and conditions' issue
as
a moral excuse for not supporting third world manufacturing, it might not
always be quite as black and white as it appears. It's also part of the
'west is best' culture, that seeks to convert the rest of the world to
what
we think is 'right' but that's another whole story !

That's not to say that there are not western companies who *are*
exploiting
such people, but probably not quite to the degree that some would have us
believe ...

Arfa



Quoting that someone earns 10 dollars a day, or whatever, is meaningless.
The method of comparison is how many pints of milk, or some other basic
necessity ,could he buy for one hours work.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Yes ! Exactly the point.

Arfa

Although we have no choice some items are not made here in USA its our
fault china made stuff is here like it is .

The average consumer goes to the store and picks the lowest priced
item-s and has grown the attitude of throwing things away if one little
thing goes wrong because it only costed ### almost all people have no
idea most of our good old american named products have a substitute
cinese insides in them .
If i explain their new RCA DVD player has a chinese Orion insides in it
,they give a blank stare .

The construction of most plastic products from china is very good . I
worked in a place where i was to assemble this stuff including many
office chairs . I agree the chairs are real nice ... if you dont weigh
300 pounds

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 08:33:49 -0700, the renowned
(Ken G.) wrote:

Although we have no choice some items are not made here in USA its our
fault china made stuff is here like it is .

The average consumer goes to the store and picks the lowest priced
item-s and has grown the attitude of throwing things away if one little
thing goes wrong because it only costed ### almost all people have no
idea most of our good old american named products have a substitute
cinese insides in them .
If i explain their new RCA DVD player has a chinese Orion insides in it
,they give a blank stare .

Goodness. However did that happen?

http://home.rca.com/en-US/RCA-Brand.html

Maybe you could write to them and complain about the lack of American
content:

Thomson (Headquarters)
46 Quai Alphonse Le Gallo
92648 BOULOGNE cedex
FRANCE


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

In article
,
"hr(bob) " wrote:

Somehow I don't think people in a country can survive very long
selling hamburgers and insurance policies to each other. You have to
manufacture something or you'l be dead in a couple of generations.

Sounds good to me. Well, not exactly dead dead. Just financially dead.
**** the industrial revolution. I think when we go back to living by our
wits, in harmony with nature, we'll actually be happier. Of course, most
of us will be actually dead, because most people wouldn't know how to
open a can without electricity. That's fine with me.

Then again, as long as the coup d'etat remains successful, all we really
have to manufacture in the US is war machinery, and the world will be
our oyster.

Right now, China is building a SUV automobile assembly plant in
Mexico.Those vehicles will be priced cheaper than other SUVs that are
now sold in America.A lot of those Chinese/Mexican vehicles will be
inported and sold in America.
cuhulin

wrote:
Right now, China is building a SUV automobile assembly plant in
Mexico.Those vehicles will be priced cheaper than other SUVs that are
now sold in America.A lot of those Chinese/Mexican vehicles will be
inported and sold in America.

And Americans will buy them.

Ron(UK)

"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Right now, China is building a SUV automobile assembly plant in
Mexico.Those vehicles will be priced cheaper than other SUVs that are
now sold in America.A lot of those Chinese/Mexican vehicles will be
inported and sold in America.

And Americans will buy them.

Ron(UK)

And based on my chair, if they send 'em here, so will I !!

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Right now, China is building a SUV automobile assembly plant in
Mexico.Those vehicles will be priced cheaper than other SUVs that are
now sold in America.A lot of those Chinese/Mexican vehicles will be
inported and sold in America.
And Americans will buy them.

Ron(UK)

And based on my chair, if they send 'em here, so will I !!


They'll be in Lidl

There was a guy in either Arizona or New Mexico.He imported some made in
China vehicles into America.His idea was to set up some Chinese
cars/pickup trucks dealerships coast to coast in America.The made in
China vehicles were so crappy in quality and everything else, his idea
didn't get very far.It is about the same way with made in China motor
scooters that are being sold in America nowadays.They are Chinese junk.
cuhulin

Smitty Two wrote:

Sounds good to me. Well, not exactly dead dead. Just financially dead.
**** the industrial revolution. I think when we go back to living by our
wits, in harmony with nature, we'll actually be happier. Of course, most
of us will be actually dead, because most people wouldn't know how to
open a can without electricity. That's fine with me.


What cans? Who is going to make them, process them, or deliver them
with NO technology?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:

Sounds good to me. Well, not exactly dead dead. Just financially dead.
**** the industrial revolution. I think when we go back to living by our
wits, in harmony with nature, we'll actually be happier. Of course, most
of us will be actually dead, because most people wouldn't know how to
open a can without electricity. That's fine with me.


What cans? Who is going to make them, process them, or deliver them
with NO technology?

You figured that out, huh? Then maybe you could've figured out the
unwritten but blatantly implied part of the sentence: "let alone survive
in the wild with little more than a knife."

Ancient people long, long ago figured out how to survive in the wild
without even a knife.
cuhulin

Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:

Sounds good to me. Well, not exactly dead dead. Just financially dead.
**** the industrial revolution. I think when we go back to living by our
wits, in harmony with nature, we'll actually be happier. Of course, most
of us will be actually dead, because most people wouldn't know how to
open a can without electricity. That's fine with me.


What cans? Who is going to make them, process them, or deliver them
with NO technology?

You figured that out, huh? Then maybe you could've figured out the
unwritten but blatantly implied part of the sentence: "let alone survive
in the wild with little more than a knife."


I've been though several military survival training sessions, and I
found a lot more use for a hatchet. I don't even remember using my
knife. The one at -20F in Alaska was the worst. Very little food to be
had, and you spent most of your time harvesting firewood. Shelter was
small branches cut from pine trees, and covered with snow. the opening
had to face away from the wind, and if the shelter was too small, your
lost body heat would cause it to ice over, and lose the insulating
effect of the loose snow covering the shelter. The don't call it a
'frozen wasteland' for nothing.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

I agree about the Hatchet.One of the most usefull survival tools
ever.Most rocks will put out some sparks for starting a fire.Flint and
chert and quartzite put out the best sparks.I watch Survivorman and Man
Vs. Wild on the Discovery channel sometimes.I have never been in a
survival situation before.I often wonder how I would make out?
cuhulin

On Nov 30, 5:18 am, "N Cook" wrote:
But part of the fun was trying to interpret instructions in only nominal
English like
"Turn line of fleche to plate spiggot mark A to fixture inverted B"

My favorite was when they interchanged "screw" with "****".....oh
wait...that was the Japanese.......