Rick Brandt wrote:

[Extraneous, excessive crosspost groups snipped]
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
In my opinon, it is a symptom of a larger problem....

My opinion as well.

Companies are setting up the situation that you are forced to buy new
versus repair the used applicance, car, electronics, computers, cell
phones....because they make a larger profit.

I firmly believe this is--in fact--true.

Only if the same company sells me the replacement. For the theory to work
entire industries would need to collude on this. I don't buy it.

Many of the 'companies' don't really exist. They are merely resellers
which brand products mostly made by a handful of OEM manufacturers. The
chances of buying from the same manufacturer are pretty significant
despite the product having a different brand name...especially the lower
on the totem pole one shops.

This is especially true of major appliances. If that Kenmore craps on
you and you decide to get a Fridgidaire or GE dryer the next time; you
may well find that you bought the same product in a different package.
In fact, many, if not most, of the parts will likely be interchangable.

The MBAs that are crafting the company policy are behind this.

Nah, cooking the books maybe, but not making design decisions.

Voting with their dollars....

The bean counters make sure that absolutely nothing gets made beyond the
lowest common denominator.

And the consumer is being left holding the bill...including paying for
the cost of disposal.

Your tax dollars at work....

Actually newer laws are holding manufacturers accountable for any "special"
disposal costs required of their products. That could put a whole new spin on
this topic.

That's almost a pipe dream on this side of the pond. It could happen,
but I'm not holding my breath.

jak

James Sweet wrote:


And I want to add something about "planned obsolescence" because it
is often misused. If people are choosing to buy cheap, it's hardly
that the manufacturers are making things so they will break. The
consumer often wants that cheaper tv set or VCR.



Rather than planned obsolescence, it's normally more a case of how many
cost reducing corners can they cut and still have it last "long enough".
It's hard to blame the manufactures, they're supplying what the average
consumer is demanding.



If my computer from 1979 had been intended to last forever, it would
have been way out of range in terms of price. Because they'd have to
anticipate how much things would change, and build in enough so upgrading
would be doable. So you'd spend money on potential, rather than spending
money later on a new computer that would beat out what they could
imagine in 1979. And in recent years, it is the consumer who is deciding
to buy a new computer every few years (whether a deliberate decision or
they simply let the manufacturer lead, must vary from person to person.)



There's been various attempts over the years at marketing easily
upgradeable computers, but invariably by the time you were ready to
upgrade, the cost of a new CPU module was a sizable portion of the cost
of a whole new PC, as well as the rest of the major components were
showing their age.

Not to mention, the fact that by the time you decide to upgrade, the
architecture has changed. You decide to upgrade your processor: new
processor won't fit in the old socket. Same with memory and
peripherals. I've got a few series port products that won't even work
on newer computers, a pile of 30 and 72 pin SIMM ram sticks...floppy
drives, who wants 'em?

Anybody want a couple of AT power supplies?

jak

On 21 Jan 2007 19:49:41 -0800, "Andrew VK3BFA"
wrote:


But the inability, or unwillingness, to answer ANY direct questions
seems to suggest it is an AI program. Probably someones thesis, and
they are keeping track of how much "conversation" Rod manages to
continue.

If its a good one, it should have some sort of adaptive learning
algorithm built in......

Interesting.

Andrew VK3BFA.


That particular trait is shown by politicians as well :-)



Mark Rand
RTFM

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:59:08 -0800, SMS
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:

You got your stories, I got mine.

They're not my stories. There are regularly warnings by automotive
columnists and mechanics to avoid the quick-change oil change places
like the plague, as well as the horror stories of customers that have
had their vehicles damaged by these places.

Sure, they're your stories. You believe them and apparently are
affected by them. I believe the horror stories, but also believe them
be merely anecdotal warnings that "**** happens."
In fact, my son the professional mechanic, last year called me from
the road asking to bring him oil and a drain plug. He had just been
working in my garage putting an intake manifold and a bunch of other
stuff on his car, and changed the oil while he was at it. Didn't
tighten the drain plug and it shook out. He saw the stream in his
mirror when it came loose, pulled over and shut it down, so no harm
was done except 4 quarts of Mobile 1 on the street. This is a kid who
is truly mechanically gifted, but doesn't specialize in changing oil.
I have *never* hand tightened an oil drain plug, always wrenching it
when it goes in, and I'm sure he won't make that mistake again. But
he can do 10 things at once, and I can do only 1.
Point is, the quick lube places specialize in this simple stuff,
sometimes with drill instructer-like shouts of "Plug in!!!, "Plug
torqued to 20 foot pounds!!!" Sort of funny, but good practice.
OTOH, I've heard the same type of oil plug horror stories about dealer
service bays, and independents. **** happens.
The only effect these stories have had on me is to make me pull over
after *anybody* changes my oil and make sure nothing is screwed up.
Since I don't crawl under the car, even that won't help with a
hand-tightened plug, which is a time bomb.
The only way to be absolutely confident that things are done as you
would do them is to do them yourself. Of, course then when you screw
something up, you can't whine and carry on about it.
Though I usually change my own oil, I've been to quick lube places
many, many times and *never* had an issue. Those are my stories.
BTW, I'm more particular about who does other types of auto
maintenance on my cars.

I'm not risking my vehicle to a place like that. I'll bring it to a
reputable independent mechanic, do it myself, or go to the dealer if
they have a good price. Usually the Toyota dealer has an oil change deal
that is cheaper than Jiffy Lube, plus they are using better quality
filters, and more experienced mechanics.

Good for you. Sounds as if you have your own stories of success.
You're happy with your stories, and I with mine.

--Vic

Andrew VK3BFA ha escrito:
lsmartino wrote:
It has been found that the subject under study, in this case Rod Speed
has a compulsion to answer to anything, even to himself :-D



I am starting to wonder about this - remember the "Turing Test" for AI
- you have a conversation, via a teleprinter, with the "robot" in
another room. If you cant distinguish the reply from that of a person,
then it passes the Turing Test.

Your testing seems to show that Rod might, indeed, be a robot. A bloody
good one - had me fooled for along time.

But the inability, or unwillingness, to answer ANY direct questions
seems to suggest it is an AI program. Probably someones thesis, and
they are keeping track of how much "conversation" Rod manages to
continue.

If its a good one, it should have some sort of adaptive learning
algorithm built in......

If Rod is a robot, it is probably still in development. Please notice
the fact that as soon it reachs the end of its script, or possible
answers, it has the tendency to repeat the same answer over and over,
in an endless loop. This seems to me like a software bug, but surely
the AI programmers behind the Rod project are working hard to correct
it. Probably they didn´t knew about this bug, because our testing made
it surface. Maybe they will incorpore some sort of adaptive learning
algorithm into the robot, as we clearly demonstrated that the Rod
project is laking one badly, or has a non functional one. :-)

Have fun!

Some stupid wog claiming to be
lsmartino wrote
just the puerile **** you'd expect from a stupid wog.

Message to Rod Speed developers:

This is the bug that must be solved

Some stupid wog claiming to be
lsmartino wrote
just the puerile **** you'd expect from a stupid wog.

Three times the same answer in a row. Remember to solve that before you
finish the project. Otherwise the project could be considered a total
failure. ;-)

Ah... and I think a personality change would be fine too. It would make
the final product more appaling to the end user.

Rod Speed wrote:
Some stupid wog claiming to be
lsmartino wrote
just the puerile **** you'd expect from a stupid wog.



Off your meds again, welfare boy?

Some stupid wog claiming to be
lsmartino wrote
just the puerile **** you'd expect from a stupid wog.

William Souden ha escrito:
Rod Speed wrote:
Some stupid wog claiming to be
lsmartino wrote
just the puerile **** you'd expect from a stupid wog.



Off your meds again, welfare boy?

Probably not. The Rod Speed robot is waiting for a long due update to
its A.I. software. Until that happens, it won´t be able to produce an
understandable or meaningful answer since the current software reached
the end of all possible combination of insults and answers. I wonder if
there is a way to reset Rod remotely...

Some stupid wog claiming to be
lsmartino wrote
just the puerile **** you'd expect from a stupid wog.

Alex spake thus:

I was buying a vacuum cleaner from a local vacuum cleaner repair guy and
while he was complaining about quality of modern he showed me a vacuum
cleaner that looked like it was from from 50s or 60s that he was
repairing(replacing a motor) He has a contract with a airline to service
vacuum cleaners that are used to vacuum airplane salons. These vacuum
cleaners work 24/7 for 50 years and all they need a minor service and
motor replaced every so many years.

Since you brought up the subject of old vacuums, thought I should
mention mine: a Kenmore upright that I bought for $10 back in 1980, when
it was already, what? probably 30 years old. I just used it yesterday.

In the time I've had it, I've replaced the footswitch, repaired the plug
(the cord going into it got a bit frayed, so I epoxied it into the
plug), and that's it. Oh, and it has a resuable filter bag, so no
filters to buy.

Beat that with any of the pieces of **** made today (except for the
expensive, gold-plated ones) ...


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Since you brought up the subject of old vacuums, thought I should mention
mine: a Kenmore upright that I bought for $10 back in 1980, when it was
already, what? probably 30 years old. I just used it yesterday.

In the time I've had it, I've replaced the footswitch, repaired the plug
(the cord going into it got a bit frayed, so I epoxied it into the plug),
and that's it. Oh, and it has a resuable filter bag, so no filters to buy.

Hrm... a 50 year old vacuum bag probably doesn't filter dust out like the
disposable bags of today. Other than that I'd prefer a referbed old unit.

Beat that with any of the pieces of **** made today (except for the
expensive, gold-plated ones) ...

Saw an ad for a vacuum using water to catch the dirt and dust instead of a
filter. It SOUNDS like a good idea. They were selling for $200 for two.
That's more than I'll spend to find out how well it works, but at $100 for
one I may have considered. Dumb marketing.

Any idea if the idea of filtering with water is actually a good idea? Maybe
something I should look for when buying the central vac I'll install in the
next year or two when our old canister dies.

In article zAjth.777612$1T2.674406@pd7urf2no,
says...
Since you brought up the subject of old vacuums, thought I should mention
mine: a Kenmore upright that I bought for $10 back in 1980, when it was
already, what? probably 30 years old. I just used it yesterday.

In the time I've had it, I've replaced the footswitch, repaired the plug
(the cord going into it got a bit frayed, so I epoxied it into the plug),
and that's it. Oh, and it has a resuable filter bag, so no filters to buy.

Hrm... a 50 year old vacuum bag probably doesn't filter dust out like the
disposable bags of today. Other than that I'd prefer a referbed old unit.

Beat that with any of the pieces of **** made today (except for the
expensive, gold-plated ones) ...

Saw an ad for a vacuum using water to catch the dirt and dust instead of a
filter. It SOUNDS like a good idea. They were selling for $200 for two.
That's more than I'll spend to find out how well it works, but at $100 for
one I may have considered. Dumb marketing.

Any idea if the idea of filtering with water is actually a good idea? Maybe
something I should look for when buying the central vac I'll install in the
next year or two when our old canister dies.

We've owned a Rainbow for about 25 years. It filters through water.
The idea is that virtually nothing gets past the water, so you're not
redistributing dust throughout the area you just cleaned. After 25
years, I'm sold! It was (and, if I'm not mistaken, still is) only
available through home sales. I originally thought that it would be
too much hassle filling, emptying, and rinsing each time we used it,
but it was well worth the effort, IMO. After 20 years or so, it
needed new bearings. The cost of repair was such that I chose to
buy a refurbished unit on ebay instead. I paid a bit more than the
repair, but got all new hoses and accessories in the process.

WRT central vac - there's no point in getting a water filter with CV,
since the exhaust doesn't go into your living space.

Noozer spake thus:

Since you brought up the subject of old vacuums, thought I should mention
mine: a Kenmore upright that I bought for $10 back in 1980, when it was
already, what? probably 30 years old. I just used it yesterday.

In the time I've had it, I've replaced the footswitch, repaired the plug
(the cord going into it got a bit frayed, so I epoxied it into the plug),
and that's it. Oh, and it has a resuable filter bag, so no filters to buy.

Hrm... a 50 year old vacuum bag probably doesn't filter dust out like the
disposable bags of today. Other than that I'd prefer a referbed old unit.

Well, I'd never claim that it filters to HEPA specs, but it does work
plenty well enough for my needs (and, I imagine, for most folks'). I
don't need a modren vacuum for which I have to buy disposable bags.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Vic Smith wrote:

The only effect these stories have had on me is to make me pull over
after *anybody* changes my oil and make sure nothing is screwed up.
Since I don't crawl under the car, even that won't help with a
hand-tightened plug, which is a time bomb.

I prefer to go to a competent mechanic who has the experience and
attitude to do things properly. This eliminates the need to check that
everything was done properly.

You can't see if everything was done properly with an oil change easily.
Did the mechanic leave the old oil filter gasket stuck onto the engine,
a fairly common occurrence? Did he replace the oil drain plug gasket?
Did he use the proper oil (something that even the dealer sometimes
doesn't do)? Was the filter tightened sufficiently, but not
over-tightened? Was the drain plug tightened sufficiently, but not
over-tightened.

My mechanic now even stocks factory oil filters for his regular
customers so you don't have to bring our own. He doesn't try to sell you
unneeded services such as the Bilstein Wallet Flush, etc. Oh, and he's
about $10 less for an oil change than Jiffy Lube. I'd go there even if
he wasn't my brother-in-law!

new stuff is junk. all strategy by companies is to MAKE money for them and
TAKE money from you.

somebody seems to think the 'economy' has a life of it's own. they are the
thieving corporate thugs who send money to their CEO by the basket loads.

and we as lazy hapless consumers continue to put up with it.



"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
In my opinon...no.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

TMT

Irreparable damageBy Bryce Baschuk
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007
Bill Jones, after 42 years, is finally closing the Procter Appliance
Service shop in Silver Spring.
"You can't make a good salary to survive on the way you could years
ago," said the 61-year-old owner of the oven, refrigerator and
washer-dryer repair shop. "Everything has changed in the appliance
business."
Mr. Jones recently sold his home in Laurel and is in the process of
moving to Bluffton, S.C., with his wife, Jeannette.
Mr. Jones is one of the many Washington-area repairmen who have
struggled to stay afloat as residents replace, not repair, old
appliances.
"It's a dying trade," said Scott Brown, Webmaster of
www.fixitnow.com and self-proclaimed "Samurai Appliance Repairman."
The reason for this is twofold, Mr. Brown said: The cost of
appliances is coming down because of cheap overseas labor and improved
manufacturing techniques, and repairmen are literally dying off.
The average age of appliance technicians is 42, and there are few
young repairmen to take their place, said Mr. Brown, 47. He has been
repairing appliances in New Hampshire for the past 13 years.
In the next seven years, the number of veteran appliance repairmen
will decrease nationwide as current workers retire or transfer to other
occupations, the Department of Labor said in its 2007 Occupational
Outlook Handbook.
The federal agency said many prospective repairmen prefer work that
is less strenuous and want more comfortable working conditions.
Local repairmen said it is simply a question of economics.
"Nowadays appliances are cheap, so people are just getting new
ones," said Paul Singh, a manager at the Appliance Service Depot, a
repair shop in Northwest. "As a result, business has slowed down a
lot."
"The average repair cost for a household appliance is $50 to $350,"
said Shahid Rana, a service technician at Rana Refrigeration, a repair
shop in Capitol Heights. "If the repair is going to cost more than
that, we usually tell the customer to go out and buy a new one."
It's not uncommon for today's repairmen to condemn an appliance
instead of fixing it for the sake of their customers' wallets.
If they decide to repair an appliance that is likely to break down
again, repairmen are criticized by their customers and often lose
business because of a damaged reputation.
Mr. Jones said he based his repair decisions on the 50 percent
rule: "If the cost of service costs more than 50 percent of the price
of a new machine, I'll tell my customers to get a new one."
"A lot of customers want me to be honest with them, so I'll tell
them my opinion and leave the decision making up to them," he said.
In recent years, consumers have tended to buy new appliances when
existing warranties expire rather than repair old appliances, the
Department of Labor said.
Mr. Brown acknowledged this trend. "Lower-end appliances which you
can buy for $200 to $300 are basically throwaway appliances," he said.
"They are so inexpensive that you shouldn't pay to get them repaired."
"The quality of the materials that are being made aren't lasting,"
Mr. Jones said. "Nowadays you're seeing more plastic and more circuit
boards, and they aren't holding up."
Many home appliances sold in the United States are made in Taiwan,
Singapore, China and Mexico.
"Nothing is made [in the United States] anymore," Mr. Jones said.
"But then again, American parts are only better to a point, a lot of
U.S. companies are all about the dollar."
Fortunately for the next generation of repairmen, some of today's
high-end appliances make service repairs the most cost-effective
option.
The Department of Labor concurred. "Over the next decade, as more
consumers purchase higher-priced appliances designed to have much
longer lives, they will be more likely to use repair services than to
purchase new appliances," said the 2007 Occupational Outlook Handbook.
Modern, energy-efficient refrigerators can cost as much as $5,000
to $10,000, and with such a hefty price tag, throwing one away is not
an option.
In some cases, repairmen can help consumers reduce the amount of
aggravation that a broken appliance will cause.
Consider the time and effort it takes to shop for a new appliance,
wait for its delivery, remove the old one and get the new one
installed.
In addition, certain appliances such as ovens and washing machines
can be a bigger hassle to replace because they are connected to gas and
water lines.
"It takes your time, it takes your effort, and if you don't install
the new appliance, you'll have to hire a service technician to install
it anyways," Mr. Brown said.
Some consumers bond with their appliances like old pets, and for
loyalty or sentimental reasons, refuse to let them go.
Mr. Rana said some of his clients have appliances that are more
than 30 years old. It makes sense, he said. "A lot of old refrigerators
are worth fixing because they give people good service. They just don't
make things like they used to."