In rec.crafts.metalworking Rich Osman wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
When building somethng like a CNC machine, robot or automatic beer
dispenser, many of us reuse components from many different sources that
we find surplus....in dumpsters, junkyards, scraping older machines,
thift stores, etc.

So where have YOU found your reuseable mechanical and electronic
components and what were they from?

And most importantly of all, what have you built?

TMT


There are a lot of place in the DFW area. One of the more, ummm,
notorious is Nortex. http://www.montagar.com/~patj/nortex.htm

The pictures don't do it justice. Spelunking rules apply. Bring a buddy
and watch for cave-ins.

Surplus Sales of Nebraska sort of looks like that, at least the floors I
was on.

There was also a business called The Radio TV Laboratory in Chicago that
seemed to have an infinite selection of older electronic components. They
actually stocked "new" parts for antique wire recorders. The aisles were
so narrow you had to sometimes back out of the store to let other
customers in.

The "main" surplus place in Chicago was American Science and
Surplus/Jerryco, but is really just a toy store (literally) at this point.
Up until maybe 10 years ago you could think of a project, walk in and
leave with all the parts.

(Donald Nichols) wrote:
According to Andrew Schwartz :
What hamfests are in your area?

Well next weekend (not this one) is one at Berryville VA. This
is the one hamfest at which you can actually get a nice ham
dinner. :-)

There is one in February which used to be in Vienna VA (my home
town),

There was? I've live in Vienna and had no clue there had been a hamfest
here! How long ago was it last here? I've lived here for about 11 years
now (lived down the road in Oakton before that).

but is now at a nearby community college. (This is sadly
decreased in size, thanks to the loss of a regular location.)

Which one?

There are several at Timonium MD (West side of the Baltimore
Beltway.

Several at Howard County, MD

One at Manassas VA.

One in Frederick MD.

One at the Gaithersburg MD fairgrounds (back there after several
years wandering from place to place, and it is now sadly
shrunken compared to the prior years at Gaithersburg.

There may be others which I forget,

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
http://NewsReader.Com/

In regards to hospital salvage, you may find this interesting....


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060730/...BHNlYwN0b WE-

Recycling medical devices raises concerns By LINDA A. JOHNSON, AP
Business Writer



For eight months during his infancy, Sean Van Duyn gagged, retched and
vomited daily. Now 6, the Winter Haven, Fla., boy still can't eat or
drink by mouth, instead being fed by a permanent tube in his belly.

Beset by multiple medical problems in his first months, the boy had to
have a breathing tube inserted through a hole cut in his neck. The
gagging began and continued until his mother, Susan, discovered the
tube was misshaped at the end and had been poking the back of his
throat the whole time. The tube was replaced, but by then Sean's
developing brain was programmed not to swallow; he still cannot.

The family alleged the injury occurred because the plastic breathing
tube's tip had been bent during "reprocessing" - cleaning and heat
sterilization - done at an Orlando hospital even though the tube was
labeled for single use only. They won a confidential settlement from
the hospital.

The case has fueled the debate over the safety of reusing surgical
blades, forceps and other medical devices. The practice was routine
until a couple decades ago, when stronger plastics enabled
manufacturers to start making devices designed for single use to cut
costs and prevent infection spread in the era of AIDS.

Then hospitals, and eventually specialized companies, started
"reprocessing" single-use devices, cutting device costs by about half
- without patients' knowledge.

Federal regulators say reprocessing is safe, but original device
manufacturers say they can't guarantee recycled products will work
correctly - and that they are wrongly blamed for malfunctions and
patient harm caused by reprocessing.

A federal law taking effect Tuesday, requiring reprocessors to put
their company name on recycled devices as well as the packaging, could
help determine who's at fault when problems occur. For devices too
small to mark, detachable stickers could be transferred to the
patient's chart.

"That's like a 'Sue Me!' sticker," and may not be used much, said
Josephine Torrente, a lawyer and biomedical engineer who consults for
device manufacturers.

Dan Vukelich, executive director of the Association of Medical Device
Reprocessors, argues reprocessed products are totally safe because each
item is inspected before being shipped.

The device makers and their trade group have been lobbying legislators
in several states for bills that protect their interests - and
patients. The battle has a big - and fast-growing - financial stake
for both sides. Device makers saw combined revenues jump from $48
billion in 2001 to $71 billion last year; reprocessors went from a
combined $20 million in 2000 to $87 million in 2004.

Johnson & Johnson subsidiary Ethicon Endo-Surgery is suing the biggest
reprocessor, Ascent Healthcare Solutions, for trademark infringement
over reprocessing its single-use devices.

"It is impossible to reuse them," said Robert O'Holla, J&J's head of
regulatory affairs for medical devices, because they are not designed
to be taken apart for cleaning. Yet J&J gets complaints from customers
about problems with devices showing excessive wear or bleach on them
- signs of reprocessing.

Ascent Healthcare's regulatory chief, Don Selvey, said only about 2
percent of medical devices - a category that ranges from MRI machines
to reading glasses - are now reprocessed. He said his company's
processes reduce chances of "viable organisms" surviving on devices to
one in one million.

Reprocessed devices are soaked in sterilizing solutions, disassembled,
blasted clean with a fine powder, reassembled and inspected, then
packaged, sterilized and resealed. On average, they're reused three to
six times.

"It is as safe and effective as a new device if they meet our
requirements," said Larry Spears, compliance chief for medical devices
at the Food and Drug Administration.

Since early 2004, when reports of problems with medical devices were
first required to note if they had been reprocessed, the FDA has
received 13 reports of patient deaths and 421 other trouble reports,
including 130 involving serious patient harm, although some may be
duplicate reports.

Reprocessors say they must meet stringent FDA standards after first
proving they can safely clean and sterilize each type of device. But
the manufacturers main trade group, the Advanced Medical Technology
Association, notes about half of the reprocessors' applications for
reprocessing of individual devices were rejected by FDA, a sign of the
difficulty of properly cleaning complex devices.

Rep. Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican who chairs the House Government
Reform Committee, said Friday he plans a fall committee hearing to
examine the issue.

"It is unclear to us at this time whether FDA is able to accurately
track how often something goes wrong because a device meant to be used
once was instead reused," Davis wrote in a statement.

Congress also has asked its investigative arm, the Government
Accountability Office, to update a June 2000 report which concluded
more oversight is needed. GAO is unsure when it will begin
investigating.

Ken Hanover, CEO of the seven-hospital Health Alliance of Greater
Cincinnati, said his hospitals have used reprocessed devices for about
eight years without a problem.

"There's far more risk of medication errors in a hospital than of a
problem arising with a reprocessed device," he said, adding that his
hospitals "probably" would honor patient requests to have only new
devices used on them.

Children's National Medical Center in Washington, on the other hand,
doesn't use reprocessed devices, said surgeon in chief Dr. Kurt Newman.


"We want to use the safest and most sterile equipment," he said.

University of Pennsylvania bioethicist Arthur Caplan has "qualms" about
the practice, particularly because patients don't give informed consent
- required when deviating from the standard of care raises safety or
efficacy concerns.

"I just think people ought to know what's going on," Caplan said.

Susan Van Duyn, Sean's mother, agreed.

"If anybody can learn from the tragedies with Sean, it's worth telling"
his story, she said.

___

On the Net:

Advanced Medical Technology Association: http://www.advamed.org

Association of Medical Device Reprocessors: http://www.amdr.org



pogo wrote:
"Ron Moore" wrote in message
news:PMLyg.14187$PO.8832@dukeread03...
There is usually one salvage company in any area that handles
hospital
salvage. A friend had that affiliation with most of the local
ones. They
would call and he would haul. Anything. He and his help removed
X-ray
machines to cabinets, beds and chairs. He would usually pay them
a few
bucks based on minimal salvage value minus labor. Contact one of
your local
hospitals and talk to the plant management or controller offices.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

Thanks !

According to Curt Welch :
(Donald Nichols) wrote:
According to Andrew Schwartz :
What hamfests are in your area?

Well next weekend (not this one) is one at Berryville VA. This
is the one hamfest at which you can actually get a nice ham
dinner. :-)

There is one in February which used to be in Vienna VA (my home
town),

There was? I've live in Vienna and had no clue there had been a hamfest
here! How long ago was it last here? I've lived here for about 11 years
now (lived down the road in Oakton before that).

It used to be at the Community Center, with the tailgating
overflowing to the parking lot for behind fire department.

As for when it stopped being in the Vienna Community Center,
that was something like seven years ago, at a guess.

So -- you are local to me? I'm in Vienna, still. Do you know
about CAMS (Chesapeake Area Metalworking Society)? Alternate months
have meetings either in Maryland (Laurel, IIRC) or Virginia (not too far
from Annandale, again).

but is now at a nearby community college. (This is sadly
decreased in size, thanks to the loss of a regular location.)

Which one?

The current location is at the Northern Virginia Community
College just off Rt 236, out a ways beyond Annandale. It is about the
third parking lot out from 236 sometime in February.

Sunday, Feb 25th 2007 is the next Vienna hamfest. (It is simply
called "Winterfest" and run by the Vienna Wireless Society.) See the
following URL.

http://www.viennawireless.org/winterfest.php

If you run into me at a hamfest, you will probably be able to
identify me by the following combination of features:

1) Large white beard.

2) Fairly bushy hair -- length varies with time since last hot
weather. :-)

3) Digital SLR (currently a Nikon D70) hung around my neck and
shoulder.

4) Folding two-wheeled cart with a secondary pair of folding
stabilizing wheels, and a white canvas bag for smaller loot hung
from carabiner clips at the top of the handle.

Enjoy,
DoN
..

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

(Donald Nichols) wrote:
According to Curt Welch :
(Donald Nichols) wrote:
According to Andrew Schwartz :
What hamfests are in your area?

Well next weekend (not this one) is one at Berryville VA.
This is the one hamfest at which you can actually get a nice
ham dinner. :-)

There is one in February which used to be in Vienna VA (my
home town),

There was? I've live in Vienna and had no clue there had been a
hamfest here! How long ago was it last here? I've lived here for about
11 years now (lived down the road in Oakton before that).

It used to be at the Community Center, with the tailgating
overflowing to the parking lot for behind fire department.

As for when it stopped being in the Vienna Community Center,
that was something like seven years ago, at a guess.

I guess I just missed them....

So -- you are local to me? I'm in Vienna, still.

Yeah, I live here. I live next to Glydon Park on Ainstree Ct. I bumped
into the Vienna Wireless Society in the park a few years ago having some
sort of get together. I see they also meet at Vienna Elementary. I think
I've seen them there before when I was there from one of the kids school
events.

Do you know
about CAMS (Chesapeake Area Metalworking Society)? Alternate months
have meetings either in Maryland (Laurel, IIRC) or Virginia (not too far
from Annandale, again).

No, haven't heard of them. I'm not into metalworking (though I have some
interest in getting into it). I'm reading and posting to this thread from
the comp.robotics.misc group.

but is now at a nearby community college. (This is sadly
decreased in size, thanks to the loss of a regular location.)

Which one?

The current location is at the Northern Virginia Community
College just off Rt 236, out a ways beyond Annandale. It is about the
third parking lot out from 236 sometime in February.

Sunday, Feb 25th 2007 is the next Vienna hamfest. (It is simply
called "Winterfest" and run by the Vienna Wireless Society.) See the
following URL.

http://www.viennawireless.org/winterfest.php

Thanks for the info.

If you run into me at a hamfest, you will probably be able to
identify me by the following combination of features:

1) Large white beard.

2) Fairly bushy hair -- length varies with time since last hot
weather. :-)

3) Digital SLR (currently a Nikon D70) hung around my neck and
shoulder.

4) Folding two-wheeled cart with a secondary pair of folding
stabilizing wheels, and a white canvas bag for smaller loot hung
from carabiner clips at the top of the handle.

Enjoy,
DoN

I'll keep my eye out for you!

I've had pictures on my web site but it's been down for a few months
because I've been too lazy to set it up again after a computer move. I
should get it back on line and update it.

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
http://NewsReader.Com/

According to Curt Welch :
(Donald Nichols) wrote:
According to Curt Welch :

[ ... ]

It used to be at the Community Center, with the tailgating
overflowing to the parking lot for behind fire department.

As for when it stopped being in the Vienna Community Center,
that was something like seven years ago, at a guess.

I guess I just missed them....

Most people don't look in the town calendar for a hamfest in
February. :-) (And, of course, it is no longer in the calendar, since
it is no loner in the community center.

So -- you are local to me? I'm in Vienna, still.

Yeah, I live here. I live next to Glydon Park on Ainstree Ct.

O.K. That is not far away at all. I'm on Broadleaf Drive, just
off of Beulah. (Between Beulah and Glyndon.)

[ ... ]

Do you know
about CAMS (Chesapeake Area Metalworking Society)? Alternate months
have meetings either in Maryland (Laurel, IIRC) or Virginia (not too far
from Annandale, again).

No, haven't heard of them. I'm not into metalworking (though I have some
interest in getting into it). I'm reading and posting to this thread from
the comp.robotics.misc group.

O.K. There is a sub-group which is sort of between metalworking
and robotics -- the CNC sub-group. Robotics, but very specialized
robotics. :-)

There is no membership fee -- just show up. You can find a link
to the CAMS website off of the dropbox site:

http://www.metalworking.com/

I tend to not remember the URL, because I get the notices on the
mailing list.

[ ... ]

If you run into me at a hamfest, you will probably be able to
identify me by the following combination of features:

[ ... ]

I'll keep my eye out for you!

O.K.

I've had pictures on my web site but it's been down for a few months
because I've been too lazy to set it up again after a computer move. I
should get it back on line and update it.

O.K. You can see a couple of photos of me with concertinas on
the web site in my .sig -- but those photos are several years old now,
and the hair has gotten more towards the gray/white than it was then.
Perhaps it is time to take some new ones. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

My experience indicates that it is usually the fact that the item was a
tax writeoff or a company fears liability, industrial spying or
employee theft so they would rather destroy than have someone else
benefit.

TMT

Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:23:54 -0600, Hamad bin Turki Salami
put finger to keyboard and
composed:

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 12:05:51 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

So where have YOU found your reuseable mechanical and electronic
components and what were they from?

There are some thrift stores where I live that sell used computers
for between $5 and $15. They range from 486's to Pentium III's,
as well as old Mac's. Most of these machines work, but I don't
need old computers, so I buy some for salvage parts. In a couple
of lucky cases, I've been able to use some of the parts to repair
broken music synthesizers. They also get millions of power supplies,
cables, and such junk there. I once picked up a pretty nice bench
power supply for a few dollars, and I got an oscilloscope too once,
some scientific calculators, etc.

And here's a sort of negative answer ... When I was a teenager
I had a string a terrible, frustrating jobs. One of them was doing
inventory in a warehouse for electronic and mechanical parts.
There were thousands of neat little parts in this place and my
job was to keep counting them. I also had to pull the parts that were
discontinued. So one day I'd pulled a whole bunch of these nifty
little things -- motors, LEDs, connectors, etc. -- and I asked the
supervisor where they were going. "We incinerate them when
they're discontinued," he answered. "Incinerate them? Well, can
I take them if you're just going to burn them?" I asked. "No,"
he answered without explanation. I remember thinking what a
big, stupid dufus this guy was, and how I'd never get anywhere
with him, but I went ahead and asked him why I couldn't take
them. "Because they're patented," he said. When I pointed out
to him that this had nothing to do with anything, he turned
around and shouted in a booming voice to the guy who dealt
with the incinerator, "Hey, Joe. We've got some discontinued
stuff here. Come get it and make sure it burns."

It's ridiculous, even criminal, but that's economics. When something
is written off, it must be scrapped in such a way that it cannot be
reused. If the greenies weren't just a useless bunch of tree huggers,
then maybe this could change.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

On 31 Jul 2006 07:51:05 -0700, the renowned "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

My experience indicates that it is usually the fact that the item was a
tax writeoff or a company fears liability, industrial spying or
employee theft so they would rather destroy than have someone else
benefit.

TMT

Another reason is to avoid old, but still servicable, items from
affecting the market by displacing new items. We often took old
instruments such as temperature controls as 'trade ins' for new ones
and permanently disabled them before trashing them.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 11:10:06 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On 31 Jul 2006 07:51:05 -0700, the renowned "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

My experience indicates that it is usually the fact that the item was a
tax writeoff or a company fears liability, industrial spying or
employee theft so they would rather destroy than have someone else
benefit.

TMT

Another reason is to avoid old, but still servicable, items from
affecting the market by displacing new items. We often took old
instruments such as temperature controls as 'trade ins' for new ones
and permanently disabled them before trashing them.


Another reason that often happens is that no one in the chain of
command cares.

i

William Wixon wrote:
(posting from r.c.m.)

LOL. funny to see "P&D surplus" here. (international newsgroup, P&T is
local to me) yeah, they're still there. there's always controversy about
the name though, people always debating if it's "P&D" or "P&T". just looked
in the phone book, i guess he changed the name, "P&T Surplus 198 Abeel St.
Kingston NY (845) 338-6191" he's a good guy, gave me a break/discount
multiple times, i think he has his gearmotors at too high a price though.
:-)



wrote in message
ups.com...

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
When building somethng like a CNC machine, robot or automatic beer
dispenser, many of us reuse components from many different sources that
we find surplus....in dumpsters, junkyards, scraping older machines,
thift stores, etc.

So where have YOU found your reuseable mechanical and electronic
components and what were they from?

And most importantly of all, what have you built?

TMT

I always enjoyed poking about at P&D surplus in Kingston, NY.
Wonder if they're still there?

Dave


I'm pretty sure it *was* P&D, but my 1st trip there was in the '80s, so
I wouldn't be suprised if there was no P and no D in the name.

Dave

"Another reason is to avoid old, but still servicable, items from
affecting the market by displacing new items. We often took old
instruments such as temperature controls as 'trade ins' for new ones
and permanently disabled them before trashing them. "

"Another reason that often happens is that no one in the chain of
command cares. "

Ah yes...two more reasons that I had overlooked but have seen in action
firsthand....thanks for contributing them

It just occcurred to me that we haven't heard from Gunner. Gunner,
while I may disagree on political issues with you at times I do highly
respect your scrouging abilities...care to comment where you get your
pickings?

TMT


Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

My experience indicates that it is usually the fact that the item was a
tax writeoff or a company fears liability, industrial spying or
employee theft so they would rather destroy than have someone else
benefit.

TMT

Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:23:54 -0600, Hamad bin Turki Salami
put finger to keyboard and
composed:

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 12:05:51 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

So where have YOU found your reuseable mechanical and electronic
components and what were they from?

There are some thrift stores where I live that sell used computers
for between $5 and $15. They range from 486's to Pentium III's,
as well as old Mac's. Most of these machines work, but I don't
need old computers, so I buy some for salvage parts. In a couple
of lucky cases, I've been able to use some of the parts to repair
broken music synthesizers. They also get millions of power supplies,
cables, and such junk there. I once picked up a pretty nice bench
power supply for a few dollars, and I got an oscilloscope too once,
some scientific calculators, etc.

And here's a sort of negative answer ... When I was a teenager
I had a string a terrible, frustrating jobs. One of them was doing
inventory in a warehouse for electronic and mechanical parts.
There were thousands of neat little parts in this place and my
job was to keep counting them. I also had to pull the parts that were
discontinued. So one day I'd pulled a whole bunch of these nifty
little things -- motors, LEDs, connectors, etc. -- and I asked the
supervisor where they were going. "We incinerate them when
they're discontinued," he answered. "Incinerate them? Well, can
I take them if you're just going to burn them?" I asked. "No,"
he answered without explanation. I remember thinking what a
big, stupid dufus this guy was, and how I'd never get anywhere
with him, but I went ahead and asked him why I couldn't take
them. "Because they're patented," he said. When I pointed out
to him that this had nothing to do with anything, he turned
around and shouted in a booming voice to the guy who dealt
with the incinerator, "Hey, Joe. We've got some discontinued
stuff here. Come get it and make sure it burns."

It's ridiculous, even criminal, but that's economics. When something
is written off, it must be scrapped in such a way that it cannot be
reused. If the greenies weren't just a useless bunch of tree huggers,
then maybe this could change.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:23:54 -0600, Hamad bin Turki Salami
put finger to keyboard and
composed:

snip

It's ridiculous, even criminal, but that's economics. When something
is written off, it must be scrapped in such a way that it cannot be
reused. If the greenies weren't just a useless bunch of tree huggers,
then maybe this could change.

- Franc Zabkar

I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

My experience indicates that it is usually the fact that the item was a
tax writeoff or a company fears liability, industrial spying or
employee theft so they would rather destroy than have someone else
benefit.

TMT

I'm inclined to agree with Frank here. A fair number of environmental
lobbyists lose sight of reality and become so extreme that businessmen
and politicians don't feel that they're the kind of people they can do
business with. They would help their cause if they weren't so extreme
and were, dare I suggest it, more willing to compromise sometimes.

Chris

I would agree that the "greenies" can over do it at times....but it is
a very real fact that the United States is a VERY wasteful
country...which means that there is a cultural tendency to toss
something instead of reusing or recycling it.

Consumer electronics is a very real example of it.

I also have seen what disregard for the environment can do to the
countryside and the people who live there...so I try to reduce, reuse
and recycle personally. I tend to be very successful in finding salvage
items to support my varied interests to where I rarely buy anything
new.

Could you give me some examples of how the "greenies" have added to the
reduction of recycling a product? Not trying to bait you...I am truly
interested in understanding the situation.

TMT

Christopher Tidy wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:23:54 -0600, Hamad bin Turki Salami
put finger to keyboard and
composed:

snip

It's ridiculous, even criminal, but that's economics. When something
is written off, it must be scrapped in such a way that it cannot be
reused. If the greenies weren't just a useless bunch of tree huggers,
then maybe this could change.

- Franc Zabkar

I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

My experience indicates that it is usually the fact that the item was a
tax writeoff or a company fears liability, industrial spying or
employee theft so they would rather destroy than have someone else
benefit.

TMT

I'm inclined to agree with Frank here. A fair number of environmental
lobbyists lose sight of reality and become so extreme that businessmen
and politicians don't feel that they're the kind of people they can do
business with. They would help their cause if they weren't so extreme
and were, dare I suggest it, more willing to compromise sometimes.

Chris

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 00:18:49 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:23:54 -0600, Hamad bin Turki Salami
put finger to keyboard and
composed:

snip

It's ridiculous, even criminal, but that's economics. When something
is written off, it must be scrapped in such a way that it cannot be
reused. If the greenies weren't just a useless bunch of tree huggers,
then maybe this could change.

- Franc Zabkar

I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Tell that to the insurance companies of all the ski resorts and housing
projects the Greenies have burned to the ground.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

My experience indicates that it is usually the fact that the item was a
tax writeoff or a company fears liability, industrial spying or
employee theft so they would rather destroy than have someone else
benefit.

TMT

I'm inclined to agree with Frank here. A fair number of environmental
lobbyists lose sight of reality and become so extreme that businessmen
and politicians don't feel that they're the kind of people they can do
business with. They would help their cause if they weren't so extreme
and were, dare I suggest it, more willing to compromise sometimes.

Chris

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

My comment was in relation to "how greenies cause the destruction of
surplus equipment that can be reused"....and you know it.

As for radicals, they can be found in any ideology...gun lovers seem to
be having a big push on running the body count lately in the United
States...does that make all gun lovers guilty?

Now getting back to the topic Gunner, how about some practical advice
on scrouging? ;)

TMT

Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 00:18:49 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:23:54 -0600, Hamad bin Turki Salami
put finger to keyboard and
composed:

snip

It's ridiculous, even criminal, but that's economics. When something
is written off, it must be scrapped in such a way that it cannot be
reused. If the greenies weren't just a useless bunch of tree huggers,
then maybe this could change.

- Franc Zabkar

I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Tell that to the insurance companies of all the ski resorts and housing
projects the Greenies have burned to the ground.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

My experience indicates that it is usually the fact that the item was a
tax writeoff or a company fears liability, industrial spying or
employee theft so they would rather destroy than have someone else
benefit.

TMT

I'm inclined to agree with Frank here. A fair number of environmental
lobbyists lose sight of reality and become so extreme that businessmen
and politicians don't feel that they're the kind of people they can do
business with. They would help their cause if they weren't so extreme
and were, dare I suggest it, more willing to compromise sometimes.

Chris

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

That's just up the road from me in Alexandria.

Andy
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
According to Curt Welch :
(Donald Nichols) wrote:
According to Andrew Schwartz :
What hamfests are in your area?

Well next weekend (not this one) is one at Berryville VA. This
is the one hamfest at which you can actually get a nice ham
dinner. :-)

There is one in February which used to be in Vienna VA (my home
town),

There was? I've live in Vienna and had no clue there had been a hamfest
here! How long ago was it last here? I've lived here for about 11 years
now (lived down the road in Oakton before that).

It used to be at the Community Center, with the tailgating
overflowing to the parking lot for behind fire department.

As for when it stopped being in the Vienna Community Center,
that was something like seven years ago, at a guess.

So -- you are local to me? I'm in Vienna, still. Do you know
about CAMS (Chesapeake Area Metalworking Society)? Alternate months
have meetings either in Maryland (Laurel, IIRC) or Virginia (not too far
from Annandale, again).

but is now at a nearby community college. (This is sadly
decreased in size, thanks to the loss of a regular location.)

Which one?

The current location is at the Northern Virginia Community
College just off Rt 236, out a ways beyond Annandale. It is about the
third parking lot out from 236 sometime in February.

Sunday, Feb 25th 2007 is the next Vienna hamfest. (It is simply
called "Winterfest" and run by the Vienna Wireless Society.) See the
following URL.

http://www.viennawireless.org/winterfest.php

If you run into me at a hamfest, you will probably be able to
identify me by the following combination of features:

1) Large white beard.

2) Fairly bushy hair -- length varies with time since last hot
weather. :-)

3) Digital SLR (currently a Nikon D70) hung around my neck and
shoulder.

4) Folding two-wheeled cart with a secondary pair of folding
stabilizing wheels, and a white canvas bag for smaller loot hung
from carabiner clips at the top of the handle.

Enjoy,
DoN
.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Could you give me some examples of how the "greenies" have added to the
reduction of recycling a product? Not trying to bait you...I am truly
interested in understanding the situation.

TMT

Easy. ROHS (removal of hazardous substances) regulations are driving
manufacturers to grind up serviceable items to insure disposal in
accordance with regulations. Surplus resale is not even an option.

Based on completely unscientific observation I believe that most of the
destruction prior to this factor was driven my concerns about liability
and market impact.

In the case of liability concerns virtually all of the arguments I've
heard have been pretty far fetched. In one case I pointed out at a
former employer that the disposal program cost 10 X the projected
liability, and that the projected liability was clearly grossly
overstated. The risk adviser (attorney) pointed to the PR impact of
Ford's financial decision on Pinto gas tanks. In this case the product
was large color monitors and the worry was HV breakdown causing fires.
We had **never** seen this failure with the product in several million
units. Of course there is always the light aircraft industry example.
Until recently they were responsible for anything associated with even
75 year old products. Even worse, that 75 year old product was measured
against modern standards and knowledge.

I know of too many companies that grind up old product for fear that
they will compete with current stuff. I think most of this is at least
a misplaced or at worst wishfully arrogant. It's a rare application
that old product competes with new. It's also a rare company that has
such a dominant position in the industry, and has had it for so long
that any kind of destruction program can have any significant effect on
the market. I suspect the reality is that old product can meet a need
that new stuff would never be applied to. I also think that old stuff
can help establish applications that would not otherwise be
investigated, thus opening new markets.

Sigh.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I would agree that the "greenies" can over do it at times....but it is
a very real fact that the United States is a VERY wasteful
country...which means that there is a cultural tendency to toss
something instead of reusing or recycling it.

Consumer electronics is a very real example of it.

I also have seen what disregard for the environment can do to the
countryside and the people who live there...so I try to reduce, reuse
and recycle personally. I tend to be very successful in finding salvage
items to support my varied interests to where I rarely buy anything
new.

Could you give me some examples of how the "greenies" have added to the
reduction of recycling a product? Not trying to bait you...I am truly
interested in understanding the situation.

TMT

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm not suggesting that "greenies"
actually reduce the extent to which products are recycled, or have any
kind of negative effect on how environmentally friendly we are. I'm just
suggesting that at times they are so extreme that people take little
notice of them, and so they have little positive effect. Sometimes they
just aren't very good at persuading people who don't share their point
of view.

Best wishes,

Chris

"Easy. ROHS (removal of hazardous substances) regulations are driving
manufacturers to grind up serviceable items to insure disposal in
accordance with regulations. Surplus resale is not even an option. "

No, the ROHS are forcing manufacturers to clean up after themselves and
to insure that proper disposal actually happens....I have been in too
many junkyards in the past for anyone to BS me about how reclaimation
is done without supervision.

Okay...so the business is destroying the entire item instead of taking
the effort to remove the hazardous material...and the grinding process
now makes the entire device hazardous. So the company take advantage of
cheap dumping costs instead of properly removing the hazardous material
like they should be required to do so the remainder of the device is
able to be recycled. So is this saying that the dumping costs should be
raised to make recycling economical?

How about designing the item properly up front so the hazardous stuff
is easy to recycle/contain? Oh yeah...that would mean spending more
money up front and not dumping the problem on the public
downstream....and we have got to protect that profit margin, don't we?

I have little patience for people and companies who want to dump their
pollution on the environment that I and my famlily live in and our
children will inherit.

TMT



Rich Osman wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Could you give me some examples of how the "greenies" have added to the
reduction of recycling a product? Not trying to bait you...I am truly
interested in understanding the situation.

TMT

Easy. ROHS (removal of hazardous substances) regulations are driving
manufacturers to grind up serviceable items to insure disposal in
accordance with regulations. Surplus resale is not even an option.

Based on completely unscientific observation I believe that most of the
destruction prior to this factor was driven my concerns about liability
and market impact.

In the case of liability concerns virtually all of the arguments I've
heard have been pretty far fetched. In one case I pointed out at a
former employer that the disposal program cost 10 X the projected
liability, and that the projected liability was clearly grossly
overstated. The risk adviser (attorney) pointed to the PR impact of
Ford's financial decision on Pinto gas tanks. In this case the product
was large color monitors and the worry was HV breakdown causing fires.
We had **never** seen this failure with the product in several million
units. Of course there is always the light aircraft industry example.
Until recently they were responsible for anything associated with even
75 year old products. Even worse, that 75 year old product was measured
against modern standards and knowledge.

I know of too many companies that grind up old product for fear that
they will compete with current stuff. I think most of this is at least
a misplaced or at worst wishfully arrogant. It's a rare application
that old product competes with new. It's also a rare company that has
such a dominant position in the industry, and has had it for so long
that any kind of destruction program can have any significant effect on
the market. I suspect the reality is that old product can meet a need
that new stuff would never be applied to. I also think that old stuff
can help establish applications that would not otherwise be
investigated, thus opening new markets.

Sigh.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

When building somethng like a CNC machine, robot or automatic beer
dispenser, many of us reuse components from many different sources that
we find surplus....in dumpsters, junkyards, scraping older machines,
thift stores, etc.

So where have YOU found your reuseable mechanical and electronic
components and what were they from?

And most importantly of all, what have you built?

TMT


People call me and say, I have another truckload (or more) for you,
can you pick it up today? Three thrift stores, a local Catholic school,
the local County Government, and smaller loads from individuals call
every time the local paper mentions that I repair and recycle donated
computers to give to other disabled Veterans. I only have about 2000
square feet of storage, and I'm almost out of space. (again)

30*40 = 1200 SF Four bay garage
18*28 = 504 SF Storage building / machine shop
12*12 = 144 SF Outbuilding #1
12*12 = 144 SF Outbuilding #2
-----------------------------------------------
1992 SF Total


Then there is the work area of another 1000 SF. I need more room!


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:51:25 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

whack

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Yes, I've read what your service to my country consisted of. Run your
DD214 up your ass, there's more than a few of us who actually served
and don't need a ****in' .sig file to wave around like a steenkin'
CrackerJack prize.

I also note that you've been drummed out of every usenet ng you post
to... coincidence? I don't think so binky. A google search on your
dumb ass is quite revealing.

ploink

Snarl

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
"Easy. ROHS (removal of hazardous substances) regulations are driving
manufacturers to grind up serviceable items to insure disposal in
accordance with regulations. Surplus resale is not even an option. "

No, the ROHS are forcing manufacturers to clean up after themselves and
to insure that proper disposal actually happens....I have been in too
many junkyards in the past for anyone to BS me about how reclaimation
is done without supervision.

All true, but not my point. The way that ROHS regs are written, the
most economical solution is currently destruction. The stuff is being
reclaimed by removing the hazardous material and then everything is
ground up and processed further. If a business doesn't use the most
economical means for a task it's generally not in business much longer.
That's not greed, it's survival. Survival is a much more powerful
motivator.

Landfilling has been the norm for a long time. Recent regs are the
result of some science, and some not so common sense. Manufacturers
comply, but right now the industry is in transition. They are
responsible for pre-regulation material, and the responsibility for both
pre and post reg is so onerous that the only thing they can do is pull
it back and dispose of

Okay...so the business is destroying the entire item instead of taking
the effort to remove the hazardous material...and the grinding process

And the definition of hazardous is fluid over time. There is a move in
Europe to ban the use of gold because it uses hazardous material and
lots of energy to produce it. Hexavalent chromium is regulated in most
jurisdictions, but some are discussing an outright chrome ban.
Manufacturers today need to plan for a completely unknown future, for
which regulators will hold them responsible regardless of the best
practice at the time of manufacture.

now makes the entire device hazardous. So the company take advantage of
cheap dumping costs instead of properly removing the hazardous material
like they should be required to do so the remainder of the device is
able to be recycled. So is this saying that the dumping costs should be
raised to make recycling economical?

Without question, dumping costs need to be raised to represent the real
cost of disposal. That's more powerful, incentive. Even more
importantly it lets market forces work. Technology changes rapidly,
regulations change at a glacial pace and a rarely rescinded even when
the need to change is glaring.

How about designing the item properly up front so the hazardous stuff
is easy to recycle/contain? Oh yeah...that would mean spending more

Again the definition of proper is time varying. My beef is making the
manufacturer have to guess at the future rules.

money up front and not dumping the problem on the public
downstream....and we have got to protect that profit margin, don't we?

Well yes, to stay in business in a competitive marketplace.

While you are clearly willing to assign negative motivations to most
actions, the fact is that most of us in the manufacturers want to be
able to drink the water and breath the air. The problem is the
unintended consequences of draconian and inflexible regulations.

Today's TV's are substantially less reliable than those of two years ago
due to the loss of lead in solder. There will be far more of these
landfilled over the same period today as would have been 5 years ago.
The advent of HD and new display technologies is will likely cause the
old sets to be retired for want of features (particularly if the feds
stick to their cut over dates for digital modes.) And the new ones will
only last a few years. Add to this increase rate and landfilling and
the move to import businesses dominating home entertainment with a
half-life of a year, there's going to be a sharp increase in landfilled
electronics or expensive (to consumers) recycling programs that few
anticipate.

I have little patience for people and companies who want to dump their
pollution on the environment that I and my family live in and our
children will inherit.

Yup, we who build the stuff have a magic way to avoid the effects and
completely lack the foresight to see the problems or their significance.

Look, the basic problem is associating the real costs with any action.
Right now that isn't happening, in either direction. That's the area
that needs real work in the regulations. If that happens the market
will find an optimum and pretty rapidly. It'll also level the playing
field and reduce the value of being a fly by night operator.

wrote:

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:51:25 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

whack

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Yes, I've read what your service to my country consisted of. Run your
DD214 up your ass, there's more than a few of us who actually served
and don't need a ****in' .sig file to wave around like a steenkin'
CrackerJack prize.

I also note that you've been drummed out of every usenet ng you post
to... coincidence? I don't think so binky. A google search on your
dumb ass is quite revealing.

ploink

Snarl


Let me guess. 66fourdoor AKA trippintooeighttrack, AKA Charlie Nudeo
the Ebay spammer and scammer. Also you're ****ed because I bounced
another of your whinny e-mails without downloading it this morning.

As far as a "Google Search", I'm man enough to use my real name, and I
have only used one ID since I got back on line. The rest of your lies
are obvious to anyone who wants to bother to check them out, including
the obvious forgeries where someone changed my sig file and posted
messages to slur my name. That coward was posting through an anonymous
remailer, but I was canceling the messages as fast as he was posting
them. I then cleaned out a few that made it to Google Groups archive,
other than those that were replies to the fake message.

Why don't you grow up and get a life?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

When building somethng like a CNC machine, robot or automatic beer
dispenser, many of us reuse components from many different sources that
we find surplus....in dumpsters, junkyards, scraping older machines,
thift stores, etc.

So where have YOU found your reuseable mechanical and electronic
components and what were they from?

And most importantly of all, what have you built?

TMT

So far this week I have picked up 12 working UPS (10 APC, one Belkin,
and another I didn't log in), seven video monitors, eight hard drives,
three all in one printer scanner copiers, a computer, 30 keyboards,
dozens of power cords, some networking equipment, and about 100 assorted
cards for computers, all from one place. I have to go back tomorrow
morning to pick up six more working monitors.

Over the last month or so, I have picked up a couple pickup truck
loads of bed rails to use for shelving and carts. I have enough springs
for four or five trampolines, and picked up over 100 pounds of old
hardware. All you have to do is spread the word. It will not only be
offered, but some people will even drop things off for you. I have to
cut up all the bed rails and fire up the torch to make more shelves for
the garage. I have a lead on a couple pallets of rejected 3/4" plywood
to cut up for shelves and to repair a couple damaged workbenches, and a
pallet of reject 2"*4"*8' lumber. This is from a local mill that makes
plywood and plywood beams.

I want to build a single 40' bench across the back of the garage so
that i don't have to set up or tear down anything to do different jobs.

I am designing a computer controlled coil winding machine to make
replacement Oscillator, RF, and IF coils for old tube radios. Each part
will be stored as a profile by part number, and the machine will hold
about 20 different rolls of magnet wire. It can also be used as a wire
measuring machine to re-spool partial reels of wire for inventory, or
when someone drops a reel and breaks it. At least one large electrical
contractor is interested in renting it for his end of year physical
inventory. Meanwhile, I am looking for more of the early Akro-Mills 50
drawer parts cabinets to sort small parts and hardware. I have over 20
already full, and its a real blessing to just pull out a drawer and get
what you need.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On 31 Jul 2006 07:51:05 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I doubt it is the "Greenies" who cause senseless destruction of useful
items.

Logic would dictate that they would rather see them recycled or reused.

The Australian Greens propose to legalise untested, recreational, mind
altering *drugs*, and I don't just mean dope. OTOH, they are
completely against GM *food*. Logic? I don't think so.

What I would like the greenies to do is to lobby for mandatory
paperless service manuals for all consumer goods to be made freely
available via the Internet. That would keep a lot of otherwise
repairable appliances out of the "recycle" bin.

I would also mandate that all spare parts and consumables be priced to
reflect the cost of the appliance. For example, I don't want to have
to dump a $100 DVD player because a laser assembly costs $200, even if
it were available. Nor should I be forced to purchase a new mobile
phone because of the cost of a replacement battery, nor do I want to
trash a $100 printer because a pair of cartridges costs $120.

AFAIK, current Australian legislation requires that manufacturers
provide spare parts for a reasonable period (7 years?), but this is
often circumvented by ridiculous pricing practices.

Maybe the Greenies should divert their attention from plastic bags,
which are actually useful, and focus instead on the electronic goods
that find their way prematurely into the landfill.

Another positive move would be to remove government imposts on
replacement parts and repair charges.

Instead, the only proposal the Australian Greens have floated in
recent times is a suite of 30 additional taxes which would make
disposal more expensive to the consumer. Rather than making it more
painful to throw things away, the Greens should be thinking about how
to make it easier to hang on to what we have.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Franc Zabkar wrote:
On



The Australian Greens propose to legalise untested, recreational, mind
altering *drugs*, and I don't just mean dope. OTOH, they are
completely against GM *food*. Logic? I don't think so.

Rubbish. Read the actual policy statement rather than the tabloid
crayon interpretation.
BTW - agree - the spare situation for elctronics gear is hopeless, if
it aint a simple 20min fix with standard componets, forget it - the
$200 laser block for the $50 DVD player is all too common - and this is
after spending HOURS trying to track down said part - and BTW - it will
take 6 months to get here...

Andrew VK3BFA.

On 4 Aug 2006 07:49:40 -0700, "Andrew VK3BFA"
put finger to keyboard and composed:


Franc Zabkar wrote:
On



The Australian Greens propose to legalise untested, recreational, mind
altering *drugs*, and I don't just mean dope. OTOH, they are
completely against GM *food*. Logic? I don't think so.

Rubbish. Read the actual policy statement rather than the tabloid
crayon interpretation.

The following are excerpts from their actual policy statement prior to
the last federal election:

================================================== ===============
3.20 the controlled availability of cannabis at appropriate venues
================================================== ===============
3.25 investigations of options for the regulated supply of social
drugs such as ecstasy in controlled environments, where information
will be available about health and other effects of drug use.
================================================== ==================
3.19 the decriminalisation and regulation of cannabis cultivation and
possession for personal use, while monitoring its effects on the
health of young people.
================================================== ==================

As you can see, the Greens are quite happy to make mind altering drugs
such as ecstasy and cannabis readily available, and study their
effects later, but they come down hard against GM food because, in
their opinion, its effects have not been sufficiently researched.

BTW, I consider myself a pragmatic conservationist, ie one that can
see a balance between technology and nature. In contrast, the
Australian Greens are just a gaggle of bigoted, self indulgent, flat
earthers. They are interested in political gain for its own sake
rather than any genuine ideal. To this end they are prepared to
solicit the votes of drug lusers and other electoral dross.

BTW - agree - the spare situation for elctronics gear is hopeless, if
it aint a simple 20min fix with standard componets, forget it - the
$200 laser block for the $50 DVD player is all too common - and this is
after spending HOURS trying to track down said part - and BTW - it will
take 6 months to get here...

Andrew VK3BFA.

I rarely bother working on any CD or DVD player that is exhibiting
skipping problems. I recently wasted several hours trying to salvage a
bad CD pickup for a friend. A new assembly would have cost in excess
of AU$100. I'm left to wonder, who actually buys these laser blocks?
Why would any specialist spare parts business bother stocking stuff
they couldn't possibly sell? AFAICS, a $100 laser assembly for a 10
year old player will spend the rest of its life on the shelf, and
eventually find its way, unused, into landfill.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.