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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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modem line takeover?!
Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non
infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type.Once you disconnect the line and plug it back in, it goes free for few moments... What do you suggest I check, other than the optocoupler?( because I think it has to be ok since the modem is actually working if I manage to hook to provider in few seconds before it takes over the line) |
#2
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modem line takeover?!
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#3
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modem line takeover?!
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#6
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modem line takeover?!
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#7
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modem line takeover?!
Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. The one I have has no relay or transformer. I'm seeing 19M across the line on the bare pcb. I'll look further. It has some approvals logos printed on it but I guess they could be fraudulent. Graham |
#8
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modem line takeover?!
My guess is that you're running into the same problem that I originally
had with my USR 56K Fax modem, until I learned how to set its switches. The problem that I ran into with the SM56 is that the Motorola website evidently lacks the documentation telling you where to set the switches for the configuration that you need, plus how to set them. All that I could find on the SM56 at the Motorola website was a few pages of PR and advertising, without any technical detail. I seriously doubt that the SM56 hardware is at fault, but their published documentation is certainly wanting of more detailed technical instructions. I'd suggest that you email Motorola about this problem. Harry C. wrote: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type.Once you disconnect the line and plug it back in, it goes free for few moments... What do you suggest I check, other than the optocoupler?( because I think it has to be ok since the modem is actually working if I manage to hook to provider in few seconds before it takes over the line) |
#9
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modem line takeover?!
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#10
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modem line takeover?!
On 2006-06-19, Pooh Bear wrote:
Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. The one I have has no relay or transformer. I'm seeing 19M across the line on the bare pcb. At 48V ? Bye. Jasen |
#11
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modem line takeover?!
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 00:48:22 +0100, Pooh Bear
put finger to keyboard and composed: Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. The one I have has no relay or transformer. I'm seeing 19M across the line on the bare pcb. You might be looking into a diode bridge, either discrete or internal to a line side chip. I'd be checking whether the modem goes off-hook when the PC is powered down. If not, then your line side electronics is probably OK. Next I would check whether the modem grabs the line during the POST, ie before its drivers have a chance to load. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#12
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modem line takeover?!
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#13
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modem line takeover?!
On 20 Jun 2006 17:26:02 -0700, put finger to keyboard
and composed: Franc, the USR 56K Faxmodem is also an internal soft modem (new word?). Modems are classified as "soft", controllerless, or "hard". The former has a DAA and not much else, the second has a DAA + DSP, and the latter has a DAA + DSP + controller. If any functional block is missing, then it is emulated by a driver. Softmodems are technically the worst because they rely on the host CPU to do everything. That is not to say that softmodems are necessarily bad. All of today's modems have setup switch settings, either hard or soft. Some external USR modems, eg Courier, had a physical bank of switches. I thought you were referring to them. Without these the modem would be relatively inflexible and useless. It's usually the modem initialization control command that sets them up, and they typically run from S1 to S7 or more. These determine such basic things such as if the modem is on-line continuously, normally off-line, auto-answer, automatic retries, etc. You need to have a copy of the chipset producer's technical data sheet to learn how to use them, without which the chipset is virtually useless. I know of no S-register that would cause a modem to power up in an off-hook state, nor any reason why you would want it to. If the software or the modem's driver is commanding it to go off-hook, then something is very wrong. Having said that, I seem to recall some Conexant modems that would not release the line after disconnection. The fix was a driver update. If you are a Windows user, your modemlog file will tell you which commands are being sent to your modem, and how the modem is responding. Without knowledge of what these settings mean and how to use them, you're simply flying blind. This is why you need the data sheet. An ATZ command will reset the modem and an ATH will hang it up. Both commands are normally sent by DUN in the course of a dial-up session. I'd suggest that the OP launch a HyperTerminal comms session and send an ATE1M2L3 command (to enable command echo and turn on the speaker at max volume) and then send an ATH1 to take the modem off-hook and an ATH to hang it up. Monitor the voltage at the wall outlet while doing this. The on-hook voltage should be about 50V and the off-hook volts should drop to around 10V-20V. It may also be interesting to see whether the modem is able to pulse dial, eg ATDP12345678, as this relies on interrupting the loop current via the hook switch. When you purchase an integrated system, the system designers have already done this basic bit of homework for you. The factory settings are restored by an AT&F command. But if you're starting with the raw chipset, you have to do this bit of research for youself. Harry C. I found these documents useful: "Software Modem and Audio/Modem Riser (AMR) Design" http://www.eetasia.com/ARTICLES/1999...TEK_CT_TAC.PDF Modem user manual with a chapter on SM56 AT commands: http://www.modem-help.freeserve.co.u...la_sm56pci.pdf - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#14
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modem line takeover?!
On 6/20/06 1:48 AM, in article net, "jasen"
wrote: On 2006-06-19, Pooh Bear wrote: Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. The one I have has no relay or transformer. I'm seeing 19M across the line on the bare pcb. At 48V ? Bye. Jasen I'm late getting into this, but..... Have you looked at the documentation for the modem? As a condition of the Registration program in the U.S., the manufacturer must declare the Ringer Equivalence for the modem. There are two ways to determine the Ringer Equivalence Number (REN), and one of them is the Tip to Ring dc resistance. If they declare REN=2 then the 19M you see may be normal, and is probably not your problem. Don |
#15
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modem line takeover?!
Franc, the USR 56K Faxmodem is also an internal soft modem (new
word?). All of today's modems have setup switch settings, either hard or soft. Without these the modem would be relatively inflexible and useless. It's usually the modem initialization control command that sets them up, and they typically run from S1 to S7 or more. These determine such basic things such as if the modem is on-line continuously, normally off-line, auto-answer, automatic retries, etc. You need to have a copy of the chipset producer's technical data sheet to learn how to use them, without which the chipset is virtually useless. Without knowledge of what these settings mean and how to use them, you're simply flying blind. This is why you need the data sheet. When you purchase an integrated system, the system designers have already done this basic bit of homework for you. But if you're starting with the raw chipset, you have to do this bit of research for youself. Harry C. Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 21:34:10 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: My guess is that you're running into the same problem that I originally had with my USR 56K Fax modem, until I learned how to set its switches. The problem that I ran into with the SM56 is that the Motorola website evidently lacks the documentation telling you where to set the switches That's because there are none. The SM56 is an internal (S)oft(M)odem. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#16
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modem line takeover?!
What switch settings are you using in your initialization command?
Realize that these are very similar from modem to modem, but not usually identical. You really need the data sheets for the SM56, which unfortunately I couldn't find on Motorola's website for some strange reason. Harry C. wrote: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type.Once you disconnect the line and plug it back in, it goes free for few moments... What do you suggest I check, other than the optocoupler?( because I think it has to be ok since the modem is actually working if I manage to hook to provider in few seconds before it takes over the line) |
#17
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modem line takeover?!
Just as an afterthought, Motorola does have some downloadable SM56
drivers on their website. It's quite possible that these will do the modem setup for you....and certainly worth a try. Harry C. wrote: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type.Once you disconnect the line and plug it back in, it goes free for few moments... What do you suggest I check, other than the optocoupler?( because I think it has to be ok since the modem is actually working if I manage to hook to provider in few seconds before it takes over the line) |
#18
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modem line takeover?!
Don Bowey wrote: On 6/20/06 1:48 AM, in article net, "jasen" wrote: On 2006-06-19, Pooh Bear wrote: Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. The one I have has no relay or transformer. I'm seeing 19M across the line on the bare pcb. At 48V ? Bye. Jasen I'm late getting into this, but..... Have you looked at the documentation for the modem? As a condition of the Registration program in the U.S., the manufacturer must declare the Ringer Equivalence for the modem. There are two ways to determine the Ringer Equivalence Number (REN), and one of them is the Tip to Ring dc resistance. If they declare REN=2 then the 19M you see may be normal, and is probably not your problem. The box contains a driver CD, a leaflet like 'manual' with none of that info, a piece of foam plastic and the pcb in an anti-static bag. The pcb has TUV, CE and FCC ( but not an FCC id ) printed on it together with what I originally took to be the BABT approvals symbol ( but possibly isn't ). I suspect the above are bogus. There's no manufacturers info anywhere but I recall that it was sold as 'Mentor' brand. I've an idea to report this. Maybe I'll give the company that sold it a chance to replace it though ? Graham |
#19
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modem line takeover?!
Franc Zabkar wrote: On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 00:48:22 +0100, Pooh Bear put finger to keyboard and composed: Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. The one I have has no relay or transformer. I'm seeing 19M across the line on the bare pcb. You might be looking into a diode bridge, either discrete or internal to a line side chip. There's a WO series 1 amp bridge on the line. I'd be checking whether the modem goes off-hook when the PC is powered down. If not, then your line side electronics is probably OK. Next I would check whether the modem grabs the line during the POST, ie before its drivers have a chance to load. I'll check that when I get a sec. Graham |
#21
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modem line takeover?!
On 6/20/06 6:04 PM, in article , "Pooh Bear"
wrote: Don Bowey wrote: On 6/20/06 1:48 AM, in article net, "jasen" wrote: On 2006-06-19, Pooh Bear wrote: Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. The one I have has no relay or transformer. I'm seeing 19M across the line on the bare pcb. At 48V ? Bye. Jasen I'm late getting into this, but..... Have you looked at the documentation for the modem? As a condition of the Registration program in the U.S., the manufacturer must declare the Ringer Equivalence for the modem. There are two ways to determine the Ringer Equivalence Number (REN), and one of them is the Tip to Ring dc resistance. If they declare REN=2 then the 19M you see may be normal, and is probably not your problem. The box contains a driver CD, a leaflet like 'manual' with none of that info, a piece of foam plastic and the pcb in an anti-static bag. The pcb has TUV, CE and FCC ( but not an FCC id ) printed on it together with what I originally took to be the BABT approvals symbol ( but possibly isn't ). I suspect the above are bogus. There's no manufacturers info anywhere but I recall that it was sold as 'Mentor' brand. I've an idea to report this. Maybe I'll give the company that sold it a chance to replace it though ? Graham Even a soft-modem needs hardware. For example, my new HP computer has a soft-modem and it works through a PCI card, and it is called a PCI soft-modem. Among other things, it has the RJ11 physical connection to the phone line. It is this PCI card that will have the REN and other FCC required info. I imagine some motherboards could have this functionality so that a PCI card isn't needed, but whether it's a PCI card, or it's on the computer motherboard, it must contain all FCC Part 68 and Part 15 info, or it won't be in compliance with Federal Law. If it will help, tomorrow I will pull the PCI card and see what info it provides. What are you using for a terminal program? Don |
#22
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modem line takeover?!
wrote:
Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type.Once you disconnect the line and plug it back in, it goes free for few moments... What do you suggest I check, other than the optocoupler?( because I think it has to be ok since the modem is actually working if I manage to hook to provider in few seconds before it takes over the line) hmm, maybe your line in your home is wired backwards and the modem thinks it should be on line? its been so long since i have even used a modem when DSL came out. -- Real Programmers Do things like this. http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5 |
#23
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modem line takeover?!
Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. Once you disconnect the line and plug it back in, it goes free for few moments... The symptom you are describing is that of stuck contacts in the hook relay. But then you say that there is none ... What do you suggest I check, other than the optocoupler? The optocoupler is there to detect the ring voltage and to isolate it from the host side electronics. There should be a 1uF 250V cap in series with its input, as well as a ~10K resistor. ( because I think it has to be ok since the modem is actually working if I manage to hook to provider in few seconds before it takes over the line) There has to be some way for the host side electronics to control the off-hook/on-hook state of the DAA. Look for a hook relay, possibly solid state. Otherwise look for any device that bridges the gap between the host and line sides. Can you upload a photo to your web space? - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. here are the photos http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/17113372064.jpg&s=x2 http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/17113412857.jpg&s=x2 the big lower left transistor is equiv of 2n5550 so I guess replaces the box relay, I wonder if somehow it could be replaced with it |
#24
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modem line takeover?!
Don Bowey wrote: Even a soft-modem needs hardware. Yes, I have this PCI card that's based on a Motorola 'SM56' Chip. For example, my new HP computer has a soft-modem and it works through a PCI card, and it is called a PCI soft-modem. Among other things, it has the RJ11 physical connection to the phone line. It is this PCI card that will have the REN and other FCC required info. It *should* have yes. I imagine some motherboards could have this functionality so that a PCI card isn't needed, Correct but this isn't the case here. I've had an integrated mobo like that in the past and it worked fine. This issue relates to a PCI card. but whether it's a PCI card, or it's on the computer motherboard, it must contain all FCC Part 68 and Part 15 info, or it won't be in compliance with Federal Law. Federal Law doesn't count for much in the UK. We have our own laws. If it will help, tomorrow I will pull the PCI card and see what info it provides. What are you using for a terminal program? I haven't used the terminal program in ages ! I want to use it for a dial-up PPP account to an ISP ! Graham |
#25
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modem line takeover?!
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:06:46 -0700, Don Bowey put
finger to keyboard and composed: Even a soft-modem needs hardware. For example, my new HP computer has a soft-modem and it works through a PCI card, and it is called a PCI soft-modem. Among other things, it has the RJ11 physical connection to the phone line. It is this PCI card that will have the REN and other FCC required info. I imagine some motherboards could have this functionality so that a PCI card isn't needed, but whether it's a PCI card, or it's on the computer motherboard, it must contain all FCC Part 68 and Part 15 info, or it won't be in compliance with Federal Law. I don't think you will ever find a desktop motherboard with all the modem bits on it. This is because each jurisdiction has its own telecom authority with its own specific requirements. Imagine if each and every motherboard had to undergo telecom compliance testing in every country in the world. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#26
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modem line takeover?!
Franc Zabkar wrote: On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 02:51:16 +0100, Arthur Dent put finger to keyboard and composed: What are you using for a terminal program? I haven't used the terminal program in ages ! I want to use it for a dial-up PPP account to an ISP ! Graham A terminal program (eg HyperTerminal) is useful for troubleshooting purposes. For example, most modems respond to diagnostic commands such as AT#UD, AT&V1, AT&V2, AT#UG, and quite a few others. I believe the SM56 is quite good in this regard. Good point. Once upon a time I even knew a few Hayes commands. Graham |
#27
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modem line takeover?!
Franc Zabkar је напиÑ?ао On 21 Jun 2006 12:04:18 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Franc Zabkar wrote: On 19 Jun 2006 08:44:34 -0700, put finger to keyboard and composed: Looked at several Motorola SM56 modems an all have the same fault-non infinite resistance at line jack which causes them to take over the line once the line is plugged, so none of the telephones can be used! Checked the MOV and it is ok and there is no relay on modem !(at least not a box type, just few too many smd transistors doing smth?) There is a diode bridge so the line interface is a 'dry transformer' type. If there is a transformer, then the DAA is probably dry, as you say. Otherwise there would usually be two chips, one on the line side and one on the host side, with two or three ceramic caps providing the isolation. Once you disconnect the line and plug it back in, it goes free for few moments... The symptom you are describing is that of stuck contacts in the hook relay. But then you say that there is none ... What do you suggest I check, other than the optocoupler? The optocoupler is there to detect the ring voltage and to isolate it from the host side electronics. There should be a 1uF 250V cap in series with its input, as well as a ~10K resistor. ( because I think it has to be ok since the modem is actually working if I manage to hook to provider in few seconds before it takes over the line) There has to be some way for the host side electronics to control the off-hook/on-hook state of the DAA. Look for a hook relay, possibly solid state. Otherwise look for any device that bridges the gap between the host and line sides. Can you upload a photo to your web space? - Franc Zabkar here are the photos http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/17113372064.jpg&s=x2 http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/17113412857.jpg&s=x2 the big lower left transistor is equiv of 2n5550 so I guess replaces the box relay, I wonder if somehow it could be replaced with it It appears that you may have a "Kobian Mercury HPI56MII Data/Fax PCI" modem: http://www.modem-help.co.uk/mfc/kobian.html#hpi56mii The two 16-pin chips, and/or possibly the 14-pin chip, appear to be the line side and host side pair/trio of a silicon DAA. The two ceramic caps provide the data path and isolation barrier. There is a protective gap in the PCB underneath them. The line side IC would incorporate the function of the hook relay and signal transformer. The host side IC would, among other things, provide the off-hook/on-hook control signals. In many conventional transformer-based modems, the loop current passes through, and is stabilised by, a Darlington transistor. This may be the function of the 2N5550 (???) thanks for taking a look One confirmation the chips you mention- mot6269352/4 are making up the DAA is the diode attached to its pins probably as flyback for the internal relay. I doubt the diode bridge is relevant since it should be located behind the relay in front of (incorporated) transformer. The resistance at modems line jack is few Kohms(Varistor desoldered) either right away or in case of several other modems only after the modem(out of the PC) grabs the line! ATZ/ATH/ATH1 report ok but do not release the line. I guess somehow smth energizes the relay .. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
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