Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 3/24/2010 11:14 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson

Just like the "PATRIOT ACT" was a police powers act.

"Health Care Act" is an IRS powers act.

Just wait......

hamilton

On 3/24/2010 11:14 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time,
And your government when it deserves it.

-- Mark Twain

hamilton wrote:

On 3/24/2010 11:14 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson

Just like the "PATRIOT ACT" was a police powers act.

"Health Care Act" is an IRS powers act.

Just wait......


Congressman Cliff Stearns wants you to have the facts about the Senate
Health Care Bill & Veterans

The health care reform bill requires an individual to have “minimum
essential coverage” for health insurance or that person will pay the
individual mandate tax.

The health care bill only explicitly mentions TRICARE for Life as
acceptable coverage.

This means that an unelected bureaucrat will determine if current DOD/VA
programs like:

* CHAMPVA
* TRICARE Prime/Standard/Extra
* the VA Spina Bifida Program for children of Agent Orange victims
* and the VA vocational rehabilitation programs, are insufficient
coverage.


Veterans could be forced to buy a health insurance program on the Health
Exchange in addition to their current TRICARE/CHAMPVA plans.

The House has voted on HR 4887 which would protect TRICARE, but not VA
programs from the Health Care Reform Bill.

Congressman Cliff Stearns (FL-06) is an original cosponsor of HR 4894
(supported by VFW, American Legion, and Disabled American Veterans)
which would explicitly protect CHAMPVA, TRICARE, and ALL VA health care
related programs.


--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'

flipper wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:14:36 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:


Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson


And now you know why public opposition didn't count for bean fart.

Public opposition was to the previous administration who were thrown out on their ears - and rightly so if I may venture ;-)

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 02:16:44 +0000, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:14:36 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:



Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson


And now you know why public opposition didn't count for bean fart.

Public opposition was to the previous administration who were thrown out on their ears - and rightly so if I may venture ;-)


And pray tell what does that fantasy have to do with ramming a
'healthcare' bill through via bribery and every other conceivable
machination when all polls showed a majority of the people opposed it?

The previous "administration" "blew it"

You now see the consequences. Hard luck.

America, I'm informed, is a democracy. The last lot screwed up big time, so now the democrats have their turn.

At least the current president does not have a vacuum between his ears !

richard wrote:
flipper wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 02:16:44 +0000, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:14:36 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:



Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson


And now you know why public opposition didn't count for bean fart.

Public opposition was to the previous administration who were thrown
out on their ears - and rightly so if I may venture ;-)


And pray tell what does that fantasy have to do with ramming a
'healthcare' bill through via bribery and every other conceivable
machination when all polls showed a majority of the people opposed it?

The previous "administration" "blew it"

You now see the consequences. Hard luck.

America, I'm informed, is a democracy. The last lot screwed up big
time, so now the democrats have their turn.

At least the current president does not have a vacuum between his ears !

Not to mention that the last administration had the presidency for 8 years and
a majority in both houses for a good share of that time. What did they do on Health Care.
zip. Instead they gave trillion dollar tax cuts to the rich that only motivated their greed to damn near bankrupt the nation.
These days when I run in a Republican in public regurgitating the latest sound bites from Rush or Sean, or Bill, I just laugh and
ask them when they stopped thinking for themselves.

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:52:49 +0000, richard
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 02:16:44 +0000, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:14:36 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:



Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson

And now you know why public opposition didn't count for bean fart.
Public opposition was to the previous administration who were thrown out on their ears - and rightly so if I may venture ;-)

And pray tell what does that fantasy have to do with ramming a
'healthcare' bill through via bribery and every other conceivable
machination when all polls showed a majority of the people opposed it?
The previous "administration" "blew it"

You now see the consequences. Hard luck.

America, I'm informed, is a democracy. The last lot screwed up big time, so now the democrats have their turn.

And, again, that fantasy has not one blessed thing to do with ramming
a 'healthcare' bill through via bribery and every other conceivable
machination when all polls showed a majority of the people opposed it

I prefer an acrimonious discussion to fear inspired unanimity like the Patriot Act.


Telling me you didn't like Bush is not an excuse for anything.

Gee, here I thought it was one of the reasons Obama was elected. I seem
to recall hearing a campaign promise to enact a plan. Of course, I did not
hear that from Rush, so I might be wrong.

"richard" wrote in message
...
snip

America, I'm informed, is a democracy. The last lot screwed up big time,
so now the democrats have their turn.


Representative Republic....



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:27:25 -0500, Bit Farmer
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:52:49 +0000, richard
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 02:16:44 +0000, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:14:36 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:



Quotation of the day...

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing
it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to
pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in
different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together
_to_control_the_people_". John Dingell

...Jim Thompson
And now you know why public opposition didn't count for bean fart.
Public opposition was to the previous administration who were thrown out on their ears - and rightly so if I may venture ;-)
And pray tell what does that fantasy have to do with ramming a
'healthcare' bill through via bribery and every other conceivable
machination when all polls showed a majority of the people opposed it?
The previous "administration" "blew it"

You now see the consequences. Hard luck.

America, I'm informed, is a democracy. The last lot screwed up big time, so now the democrats have their turn.
And, again, that fantasy has not one blessed thing to do with ramming
a 'healthcare' bill through via bribery and every other conceivable
machination when all polls showed a majority of the people opposed it
I prefer an acrimonious discussion

I see why, considering the will of the people is going to be summarily
ignored by the current crop of despotic pima donnas.

to fear inspired unanimity like the Patriot Act.

I hate to burst your bubble but securing the Nation from attack *is*
one of the explicitly enumerated powers in the Constitution and I dare
say you, yourself, would exhibit a modicum of 'fear' sitting inside
WTC 1 with airliner nose cone 5 feet from your window.


Telling me you didn't like Bush is not an excuse for anything.
Gee, here I thought it was one of the reasons Obama was elected.

Even if so it has nothing to do with ramming a 'healthcare' bill
through, via bribery and every other conceivable machination, when all
polls showed a majority of the people opposed it

I seem
to recall hearing a campaign promise to enact a plan.

Did you hear him detail the plan and explain he'd ram it through
Congress whether the people wanted it or not?

Obama said a lot of things. Like, he ran ads extolling Clean Coal with
"Yes we can! Yes, we can!" while simultaneously telling his liberal
enviro pals to ignore it because his cap and trade program would put
anyone who used coal, clean or otherwise, out of business.

So which 'platitude' did you believe? The public flim flam or the
private revelation?

He said all healthcare negotiations would be televised on CSPAN, so
'the people' would know exactly what was going on and what 'deals'
were made. Was it? No.

He said all bills would be on the Internet for 5 days before he signed
them. Are they? No. Of course, that doesn't matter because he doesn't
give a flying fig that a majority opposed ObamaCare so 'seeing' it for
5 days is nothing but smoke up your skirt. But then, everything he
says is smoke up your skirt.

He fabricated doctors wantonly lopping off limbs and ripping the
tonsils out of poor innocent children. He said 'criticisms' of his
bill, except he had proposed no bill at the time, were lies because no
bill had yet passed out of committee yet, in the next breath,
proceeded to explain what was, supposedly, in 'the bill' he had just
said didn't exist.

To this day he claims you can 'keep your healthcare plan if you want'
but the bill is explicitly designed to eliminate that plan and you
can't 'keep' what isn't there. It's pure demagoguery.

I could go on and on but that would take days because almost nothing
he says in public can be taken at face value nor does it have any
relation to reality or what will be done and, IMO, that's no accident:
He knows the people wouldn't swallow what he intends to ram down their
throats.

In private he explained his cap and trade program will "necessarily"
cause electricity rates to "skyrocket." Ok, everyone who voted for
skyrocketing electric bills hold up your hand.

And I haven't even gotten into Pelosi not allowing anyone to 'read the
bills' before voting on them or Reid bribing Senators. But then, Rep
Conyers can't figure out any use to reading the bills anyway.

Just last night Rep Weiner, what an appropriate name, declared that no
agent of the government will do any thing whatsoever to anyone who
refuses to comply with the health insurance mandate. Of course, he
called anyone who says otherwise a 'liar' and repeated it just in case
you missed the first go round. Oh really? Then why have a mandate and
add 16,000 IRS agents for the purpose of non enforcement?

Of course, Reid insisted the income tax is 'voluntary'. LOL I mean, it
*would* be funny if it weren't for certifiable idiots like that being
in power. But I guess it explains why half the Administration can't
file proper income tax statements so, naturally, lets put them in
charge of tax law, financial institutions, and the economy. Actually,
that might be better than the self avowed communists and radicals who
looked to Mao for their inspiration but no luck there either.

In all my life I have never seen anything even remotely close to the
blatant raw arrogance, corruption, despotism, demagoguery,
fabrication, and down right lies that come out of every level in this
Administration and Congress.

But Castro just announced he thinks what they're doing is all just
peachy keen so I suppose that explains things.

Of course, I did not
hear that from Rush, so I might be wrong.

Maybe you would have 'heard' had you bothered to listen.

LOL. More rightist drivel. Sorry you are having such a
hard time these days.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:59:29 -0500, Bit Farmer wrote:

LOL. More rightist drivel. Sorry you are having such a hard time these
days.


Another of those "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts".
lefties.


--
I'm not under the alkafluence of inkahol
that some thinkle peep I am.
It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get.
----------------------
Mandriva Linux release 2010.0 (Official) for x86_64
2.6.31.12-desktop-2mnb AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4400+
----------------------

Jim Whitby wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:59:29 -0500, Bit Farmer wrote:


LOL. More rightist drivel. Sorry you are having such a hard time these
days.



Another of those "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts".
lefties.




What a breath of fresh air Obama is.

We have an agreement on "nucular" arms reductions and at last a chill regarding the Israeli state's relentless theft of
Palestinian land - progress unimaginable under the lunatic last administration - facts that I suppose will be disputed by
numbskull lowbrow rightists.

richard wrote:

What a breath of fresh air Obama is.


Only if a room full of farts is fresh... It's no wonder you like
Obama.


--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
richard wrote:

What a breath of fresh air Obama is.



Only if a room full of farts is fresh... It's no wonder you like
Obama.



Plenty of old farts here and I'll warrant that you are the older.

richard wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
richard wrote:

What a breath of fresh air Obama is.



Only if a room full of farts is fresh... It's no wonder you like
Obama.



Plenty of old farts here and I'll warrant that you are the older.



Age has nothing to do with the stench. We are thankful that you are
across an ocean so we don't smell your sorry socialist ass.


--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
richard wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

richard wrote:


What a breath of fresh air Obama is.



Only if a room full of farts is fresh... It's no wonder you like
Obama.



Plenty of old farts here and I'll warrant that you are the older.




Age has nothing to do with the stench. We are thankful that you are
across an ocean so we don't smell your sorry socialist ass.



If you think I'm a socialist, then you're very much mistaken.

richard wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
richard wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

richard wrote:


What a breath of fresh air Obama is.



Only if a room full of farts is fresh... It's no wonder you like
Obama.



Plenty of old farts here and I'll warrant that you are the older.




Age has nothing to do with the stench. We are thankful that you are
across an ocean so we don't smell your sorry socialist ass.



If you think I'm a socialist, then you're very much mistaken.


You're like a Jeff Foxworty Redneck joke, only sicker.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

http://www.flickr.com/photos/materrell/

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
richard wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

richard wrote:


Michael A. Terrell wrote:


richard wrote:



What a breath of fresh air Obama is.



Only if a room full of farts is fresh... It's no wonder you like
Obama.



Plenty of old farts here and I'll warrant that you are the older.




Age has nothing to do with the stench. We are thankful that you are
across an ocean so we don't smell your sorry socialist ass.



If you think I'm a socialist, then you're very much mistaken.



You're like a Jeff Foxworty Redneck joke, only sicker.



Sorry, I'm unknowledgeable about the highlights of your "culture" and I think on this occasion I would prefer to remain like you
- ignorant.

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 01:08:10 +0000, richard
wrote:


Jim Whitby wrote:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:59:29 -0500, Bit Farmer wrote:



LOL. More rightist drivel. Sorry you are having such a hard time these
days.



Another of those "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts".
lefties.




What a breath of fresh air Obama is.


Sure, if self aggrandizing, despotic, and condescending pompous
arrogance is the smell you like.

Pompous condescending arrogance is what I see when I read posts by "flipper"
in this venue seemingly for republican mutual masturbation.


We have an agreement on "nucular" arms reductions


Well, aren't you the one to go all chewy gooey over a treaty you don't
even know the full terms or history of.

Lot easier 'negotiating' a treaty by appeasement, like Obama throwing
our East European (Poland, for example) and former Soviet block States
(remember Georgia?) under the bus, isn't it?

This 'reduction' treaty follows the same path as Reagan's 'invention'
of the idea, vs the previous SALT treaties, and follows his START I
(proposed 1982, ratified 1991), Bush I's SALT II (1993), and Bush II's
SORT Treaty (2002). Except they didn't have to stab our allies in the
back to get them.

SORT was criticized because it didn't call for actually destroying any
warheads. Obama's doesn't either.

You're just a naysayer, no doubt you have us bombing Russia you're so boneheaded.

and at last a chill regarding the Israeli state's relentless theft of
Palestinian land


Upset Hitler didn't have time to finish the job?

A remark worthy of a complete prat if I may say so.


The, so called, 'Palestinian issue' is an unmitigated mess and there
is no Disney Land, some day your prince will come, bippity boppity
boo, glass slipper solution but a few, by no means comprehensive,
historical facts.

There has never been a, so called, 'Palestinian State'. Never.

So what ? There was never a jewish state either.


Shortly after the collapse and breakup of the Ottoman Empire (which
had acquired the lands by force of arms) it was proposed the 'whole
thing' be an Arab state under the caveat they allow a modest amount of
Jewish immigration for a limited number of years. The Arab
'leadership' promptly rejected it.

So what ?

Thus the 'two state solution' was born, circa the 1920's (with many
rebirths), Jordan was designated an 'Arab' portion of the British
Mandate, and the Palestinians have been 'negotiating' themselves out
of a 'country' ever since. As someone once opined, the Palestinians
never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Just look at the maps on the Le Monde website showing the relentless erosion of Palestinian land, at odds with international law
and the subject of many UN resolutions that Israel just ignores supported by a partisan US policy and force of arms supplied by
the USA - facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza - and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:

this venue seemingly for republican mutual masturbation.


Far better than absolutely oblivious democrat mental masturbation.

I prefer that any ****ing with my head be by my hand.

flipper wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:

- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.


- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised and you lack any shred of humanity.

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:


- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.



- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?


and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.


and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.





It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 04:51:05 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:

- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.


- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words

Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?

and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised

If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.

and you lack any shred of humanity.

Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.





"Debating" Mullens/Sloman/Phil/Panteltje is about as effective as
****ing into the wind.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy

Jim Thompson wrote:

"Debating" Mullens/Sloman/Phil/Panteltje is about as effective as
****ing into the wind.


Not true! At least you can water the plants.


--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 04:51:05 -0500, flipper wrote:


On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:


- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.



- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words

Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?


and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised

If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.


and you lack any shred of humanity.

Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






"Debating" Mullens/Sloman/Phil/Panteltje is about as effective as
****ing into the wind.



Thank you ;-)

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:



- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.




- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?



and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.



and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.
You attribute statements to me that I have never made.

The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves - so it is no wonder that there is opposition
from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace. Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.

The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map" however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.

Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.

I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.

When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict. The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:07:58 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:




flipper wrote:



On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:




- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.





- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?




and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.




and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.


Perfect example of turnspeak.


You attribute statements to me that I have never made.


Piffle



The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves


The FACTS prove that a falsehood and propagating falsehoods does
nothing but make the matter worse.

The "facts" prove no such thing.

- so it is no wonder that there is opposition

from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace.

Proof: Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt.

I said "is" not "was".

As for the disputed territories, while both Egypt and Jordan illegally
annexed portions of the mandate after the 1948 war Israel did not
after the 1967 war.

"No intention?" A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza
Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994
Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.

Under the auspices of 'lunatic' Bush, in 2003, the Israeli government
issued a plan for total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the
northern West Bank by late 2005. This became known as the
Disengagement Plan. In August 2005, the Israel Defense Forces and
Israeli police forcibly removed all settlers from the Gaza Strip.
Israel completed the disengagement on September 12, 2005.

The Gaza strip was too troublesome for the Israelis to hold onto.


It is rank lying ass propaganda to proclaim "there is no intention
whatsoever to exchange land for peace" when they've fraking DONE it,
and more than once.

Again I refer you to the meaning of the word "is".

Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.


Take it up with the local governing authority: Hamas and Fatah.

As for "occupied," despite propaganda the term has no basis in
international law or history in relation to Israel's control of the
disputed areas as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no
operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June
1967. I.E. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war
from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a
legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or
East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.

That's just casuistic nonsense.


Further, the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West
Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to
"cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by
another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have
never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.

Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they
certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental
powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo
Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying
Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power
exercises the functions of government in such territory..."


The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map"


It's about time you admitted your intent. It makes for such a cordial
negotiating position: "hi, we'd like to wipe your country off the
map."

That is, of course, why you tried to hide it.


however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.


LOL

Laugh you may but

Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.


Sieg Heil

Israel is the new Nazi state - bent on subjugating the Palestinians, denying them access to water, evicting them from their
homes and taking their land.

I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.


That's one reason the surrounding countries perpetuate the problem:
it's a lovely propaganda tool.

There was no 'Palestinian problem' when the Arab League attacked in
1948, there were no 'occupied territories' when the PLO formed in 1964
nor when the Arab countries decided to try again in 1967.


When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict.


Got a real problem with 'Jews', don't ya?

I've not got a problem, it is your problem to justify their immoral actions - it is you that is on the defensive.

I see your problem. Imagine them wanting to live in and around the
city of Jerusalem they built, historical capital and most holy city,
as if they couldn't just go to one of their many other countries. Not
like the Arabs who're stuck with only that one little patch of ground.
Well, besides the rest of the Middle East.

And it's a good thing Islamic terrorist groups have no 'holy dogma',
eh? I mean, other than believing the entire world, having been created
by Allah, should be dictatorially governed by their interpretation of
Islamic law.

Israel and Al Queda deserve each other.
Religious fruitcases both.


Tis a real conundrum how the conflict has lasted this long with Israel
being so 'unreasonable' about slitting it's own throat, especially
with you and terrorists hurling all that love, peace, and 'humanity'
their way.



The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.


No, they're 'bought' by the military-industrial complex, No, wait,
they're 'bought' by the drug companies. No, wait, they're 'bought' by
big oil. No, wait, they're 'bought' by the insurance companies. No,
wait, they're 'bought' by wall street. No, wait...

The first pathetic excuse everyone uses is "they're bought by insert
argument of convenience boogie man"

They're bought by money which each of the above examples supplies - including Isreali interests.

Get a clue. The reason is they've traditionally not been so stupid as
you to make the patently absurd claim that wiping Israel off the map
is 'humane' and "does not imply any harm to the Jewish people."

That, my understanding, is Iran's position. See it from their point of view - a new aggressive people have placed themselves in

their midst and have been taken the land from around them by force.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee
of its Arab population.” - Ben Gurion.

flipper wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:45:28 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:07:58 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:




flipper wrote:



On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:





flipper wrote:




On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:





- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.






- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?





and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.





and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.


Perfect example of turnspeak.



You attribute statements to me that I have never made.


Piffle




The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves


The FACTS prove that a falsehood and propagating falsehoods does
nothing but make the matter worse.


The "facts" prove no such thing.


They most certainly do.


- so it is no wonder that there is opposition

from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace.

Proof: Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt.


I said "is" not "was".


That's a farcical slight of hand. The only means to show intent is by
declaration and past behavior, both of which you summarily discard and
substitute your own manufactured bigotry and hatred for



As for the disputed territories, while both Egypt and Jordan illegally
annexed portions of the mandate after the 1948 war Israel did not
after the 1967 war.

"No intention?" A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza
Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994
Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.

Under the auspices of 'lunatic' Bush, in 2003, the Israeli government
issued a plan for total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the
northern West Bank by late 2005. This became known as the
Disengagement Plan. In August 2005, the Israel Defense Forces and
Israeli police forcibly removed all settlers from the Gaza Strip.
Israel completed the disengagement on September 12, 2005.

The Gaza strip was too troublesome for the Israelis to hold onto.


It's more 'trouble' now than then. Which is not much of an incentive
to make further concessions.



It is rank lying ass propaganda to proclaim "there is no intention
whatsoever to exchange land for peace" when they've fraking DONE it,
and more than once.


Again I refer you to the meaning of the word "is".


I refer you to the farce of your 'referral'.



Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.


Take it up with the local governing authority: Hamas and Fatah.

As for "occupied," despite propaganda the term has no basis in
international law or history in relation to Israel's control of the
disputed areas as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no
operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June
1967. I.E. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war
from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a
legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or
East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.

That's just casuistic nonsense.


It's a fact but, then, facts don't mean anything to fanatics. It's not
what you want so pooh.



Further, the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West
Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to
"cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by
another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have
never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.

Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they
certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental
powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo
Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying
Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power
exercises the functions of government in such territory..."



The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map"


It's about time you admitted your intent. It makes for such a cordial
negotiating position: "hi, we'd like to wipe your country off the
map."

That is, of course, why you tried to hide it.



however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.


LOL


Laugh you may but


Oh I'm not laughing at the consequences that would befall citizens of
Israel as you 'wiped from the map' their country. I'm laughing at you
being stupid enough to make the claim.



Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.


Sieg Heil


Israel is the new Nazi state - bent on subjugating the Palestinians, denying them access to water, evicting them from their
homes and taking their land.


More turnspeak. The one who insists the other should be wiped off the
map accuses *them* of being what they, themselves, are. Just like the
Grand Mufti, who allied with Hitler, recruited Arabs for the
Arabisches Freiheitkorps, and then accused 'the jews' of being NAZI
sympathizers.



I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.


That's one reason the surrounding countries perpetuate the problem:
it's a lovely propaganda tool.

There was no 'Palestinian problem' when the Arab League attacked in
1948, there were no 'occupied territories' when the PLO formed in 1964
nor when the Arab countries decided to try again in 1967.



When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict.


Got a real problem with 'Jews', don't ya?

I've not got a problem, it is your problem to justify their immoral actions - it is you that is on the defensive.


No problem, just need to wipe them off the map

You would be hilarious if it weren't so serious.



I see your problem. Imagine them wanting to live in and around the
city of Jerusalem they built, historical capital and most holy city,
as if they couldn't just go to one of their many other countries. Not
like the Arabs who're stuck with only that one little patch of ground.
Well, besides the rest of the Middle East.

And it's a good thing Islamic terrorist groups have no 'holy dogma',
eh? I mean, other than believing the entire world, having been created
by Allah, should be dictatorially governed by their interpretation of
Islamic law.

Israel and Al Queda deserve each other.
Religious fruitcases both.


As I said from the beginning, you do no one any favors in
demonstrating your blind bigotry and how utterly impossible it is to
reason with the likes of you.

The only thing missing is the rabid froth around your mouth.


Tis a real conundrum how the conflict has lasted this long with Israel
being so 'unreasonable' about slitting it's own throat, especially
with you and terrorists hurling all that love, peace, and 'humanity'
their way.




The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.


No, they're 'bought' by the military-industrial complex, No, wait,
they're 'bought' by the drug companies. No, wait, they're 'bought' by
big oil. No, wait, they're 'bought' by the insurance companies. No,
wait, they're 'bought' by wall street. No, wait...

The first pathetic excuse everyone uses is "they're bought by insert
argument of convenience boogie man"

They're bought by money which each of the above examples supplies - including Isreali interests.


It is patently absurd to imagine all those competing interests somehow
magically coincide in your grand conspiracy.



Get a clue. The reason is they've traditionally not been so stupid as
you to make the patently absurd claim that wiping Israel off the map
is 'humane' and "does not imply any harm to the Jewish people."

That, my understanding, is Iran's position. See it from their point of view - a new aggressive people have placed themselves in

their midst and have been taken the land from around them by force.


Iran is not an Arab country, you bigoted twit, and they don't border
on Israel nor do they even border on the border countries.

Don't let that slow you down, though. Whip out a Nazi broadcast on the
'international conspiracy of jews'.


“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee
of its Arab population.” - Ben Gurion.


That widely circulated, supposed, 'quote' is a fabrication allegedly
from The Koenig Memorandum except neither that quote nor the name Ben
Gurion appear anywhere in it.

Of course, that it's a fabrication won't matter one whit to a flaming,
hate consumed, bigot like you any more than it did to the flaming,
hate consumed, bigots that fabricated it.

Let's hope no one in Israel reads this group because if I were them
I'd be calling up the reserves and forming a defense perimeter at the
mere suggestion you might be on the way to 'negotiate'.

It is pretty much a waste of time talking to you since it would seem that you deny the evidence that is plain for everyone else
to see:-
The seige of Gaza. The attacks on civilians in Gaza, the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. The "targeted
assassinations", the forgery of passports of friendly countries for the purposes of murder. The use of phosphorus munitions on
civilians. The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. The theft of land - and so on.

I suggest that you make your way over to http://mondediplo.com/maps/ and look at the maps of the middle east and watch the
annexation of land from the Palestinians as a function of time. As a sampler, look at
http://mondediplo.com/maps/palestinianterritory200002 to see a snapshot taken in 2001 of the extent of the takeover of
Palestinian lands.

Sometimes life is strange. I was talking to my mother who was brought up in Egypt during WW2. We had never talked about Israel
before - but it seemed topical. She related a wartime (postwar ?) event - a school friend of hers was in a club frequented by
British people (she went to an English school in Alexandria) which was bombed by Jewish terrorists. It seems that the
terrorists did not like the fact that the British were impeding Jews from emigrating into Palestine. So, no matter whether the
Ben Gurion quotation is a fabrication or not, the reality is that that is what has been happening - and continues to happen to
this day.

I suggest therefore that you educate yourself to what is actually happening before you accuse me of blind bigotry.

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:35:15 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:52:28 +0100, richard
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:45:28 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:07:58 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:




flipper wrote:



On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:





flipper wrote:




On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:





- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.






- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?





and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.





and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.


Perfect example of turnspeak.



You attribute statements to me that I have never made.


Piffle




The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves


The FACTS prove that a falsehood and propagating falsehoods does
nothing but make the matter worse.


The "facts" prove no such thing.


They most certainly do.


- so it is no wonder that there is opposition

from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace.

Proof: Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt.


I said "is" not "was".


That's a farcical slight of hand. The only means to show intent is by
declaration and past behavior, both of which you summarily discard and
substitute your own manufactured bigotry and hatred for



As for the disputed territories, while both Egypt and Jordan illegally
annexed portions of the mandate after the 1948 war Israel did not
after the 1967 war.

"No intention?" A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza
Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994
Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.

Under the auspices of 'lunatic' Bush, in 2003, the Israeli government
issued a plan for total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the
northern West Bank by late 2005. This became known as the
Disengagement Plan. In August 2005, the Israel Defense Forces and
Israeli police forcibly removed all settlers from the Gaza Strip.
Israel completed the disengagement on September 12, 2005.

The Gaza strip was too troublesome for the Israelis to hold onto.


It's more 'trouble' now than then. Which is not much of an incentive
to make further concessions.



It is rank lying ass propaganda to proclaim "there is no intention
whatsoever to exchange land for peace" when they've fraking DONE it,
and more than once.


Again I refer you to the meaning of the word "is".


I refer you to the farce of your 'referral'.



Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.


Take it up with the local governing authority: Hamas and Fatah.

As for "occupied," despite propaganda the term has no basis in
international law or history in relation to Israel's control of the
disputed areas as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no
operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June
1967. I.E. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war
from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a
legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or
East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.

That's just casuistic nonsense.


It's a fact but, then, facts don't mean anything to fanatics. It's not
what you want so pooh.



Further, the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West
Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to
"cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by
another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have
never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.

Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they
certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental
powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo
Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying
Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power
exercises the functions of government in such territory..."



The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map"


It's about time you admitted your intent. It makes for such a cordial
negotiating position: "hi, we'd like to wipe your country off the
map."

That is, of course, why you tried to hide it.



however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.


LOL


Laugh you may but


Oh I'm not laughing at the consequences that would befall citizens of
Israel as you 'wiped from the map' their country. I'm laughing at you
being stupid enough to make the claim.



Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.


Sieg Heil


Israel is the new Nazi state - bent on subjugating the Palestinians, denying them access to water, evicting them from their
homes and taking their land.


More turnspeak. The one who insists the other should be wiped off the
map accuses *them* of being what they, themselves, are. Just like the
Grand Mufti, who allied with Hitler, recruited Arabs for the
Arabisches Freiheitkorps, and then accused 'the jews' of being NAZI
sympathizers.



I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.


That's one reason the surrounding countries perpetuate the problem:
it's a lovely propaganda tool.

There was no 'Palestinian problem' when the Arab League attacked in
1948, there were no 'occupied territories' when the PLO formed in 1964
nor when the Arab countries decided to try again in 1967.



When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict.


Got a real problem with 'Jews', don't ya?

I've not got a problem, it is your problem to justify their immoral actions - it is you that is on the defensive.


No problem, just need to wipe them off the map

You would be hilarious if it weren't so serious.



I see your problem. Imagine them wanting to live in and around the
city of Jerusalem they built, historical capital and most holy city,
as if they couldn't just go to one of their many other countries. Not
like the Arabs who're stuck with only that one little patch of ground.
Well, besides the rest of the Middle East.

And it's a good thing Islamic terrorist groups have no 'holy dogma',
eh? I mean, other than believing the entire world, having been created
by Allah, should be dictatorially governed by their interpretation of
Islamic law.

Israel and Al Queda deserve each other.
Religious fruitcases both.


As I said from the beginning, you do no one any favors in
demonstrating your blind bigotry and how utterly impossible it is to
reason with the likes of you.

The only thing missing is the rabid froth around your mouth.


Tis a real conundrum how the conflict has lasted this long with Israel
being so 'unreasonable' about slitting it's own throat, especially
with you and terrorists hurling all that love, peace, and 'humanity'
their way.




The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.


No, they're 'bought' by the military-industrial complex, No, wait,
they're 'bought' by the drug companies. No, wait, they're 'bought' by
big oil. No, wait, they're 'bought' by the insurance companies. No,
wait, they're 'bought' by wall street. No, wait...

The first pathetic excuse everyone uses is "they're bought by insert
argument of convenience boogie man"

They're bought by money which each of the above examples supplies - including Isreali interests.


It is patently absurd to imagine all those competing interests somehow
magically coincide in your grand conspiracy.



Get a clue. The reason is they've traditionally not been so stupid as
you to make the patently absurd claim that wiping Israel off the map
is 'humane' and "does not imply any harm to the Jewish people."

That, my understanding, is Iran's position. See it from their point of view - a new aggressive people have placed themselves in

their midst and have been taken the land from around them by force.


Iran is not an Arab country, you bigoted twit, and they don't border
on Israel nor do they even border on the border countries.

Don't let that slow you down, though. Whip out a Nazi broadcast on the
'international conspiracy of jews'.


“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee
of its Arab population.” - Ben Gurion.


That widely circulated, supposed, 'quote' is a fabrication allegedly
from The Koenig Memorandum except neither that quote nor the name Ben
Gurion appear anywhere in it.

Of course, that it's a fabrication won't matter one whit to a flaming,
hate consumed, bigot like you any more than it did to the flaming,
hate consumed, bigots that fabricated it.

Let's hope no one in Israel reads this group because if I were them
I'd be calling up the reserves and forming a defense perimeter at the
mere suggestion you might be on the way to 'negotiate'.


Before I start let's get a few things straight. I never claimed every
Jewish person that ever lived was flawless and filled with nothing but
the milk of human kindness. Shortcoming befall all persons, races,
faiths, and governments.

But I don't demonize the entire 'white race', or 'Christians', or 'the
Tea Party', or whatever the currently favored bigotry is, because
Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building nor do I blame all Islam,
or all Palestinians, or all Arabs because of terrorists, a distinction
I have always made. Nor have I suggested, like you, they 'deserve each
other'.

What I said was your anti-Semitic bigotry does no favors for the
people you claim to care about because it stokes perpetual hated and
virtually guarantees war.

It is pretty much a waste of time talking to you since it would seem that you deny the evidence that is plain for everyone else
to see:-
The seige of Gaza. The attacks on civilians in Gaza, the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. The "targeted
assassinations", the forgery of passports of friendly countries for the purposes of murder. The use of phosphorus munitions on
civilians. The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. The theft of land - and so on.

It's a "waste of time" for you because I don't restrict my readings to
only self serving commentaries by flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists, nor am I simple minded enough to imagine one can
indiscriminately lob missiles on civilian populations and then scream
'foul' when they fight back.

That doesn't mean I expect everyone has been 'flawless' but if you
engage in war then you get a war along the attendant consequences,
flaws and all.

Here's a little tip. If you care about civilian casualties then, for
starters, don't put your fracking missile launchers in schools and
hospitals.

I suggest that you make your way over to http://mondediplo.com/maps/ and look at the maps of the middle east and watch the
annexation of land from the Palestinians as a function of time. As a sampler, look at
http://mondediplo.com/maps/palestinianterritory200002 to see a snapshot taken in 2001 of the extent of the takeover of
Palestinian lands.

OMG, there be jews here. And after flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists thought they'd come so close to "the final solution."

No one 'hates' Jews, right? Just don't want any of 'their kind' within
a thousand miles of the 'ought to be' purged and 'clean' lands.

Here's a thought. How about "No problem. We'll be glad to have those
settlements in our new Arab Palestinian State with full citizenship
just like everyone else. Of course, if they would prefer to relocate
then we will not object, nor encourage them to do so."

Btw, "The land designated for the future Palestinian state" by WHO?
Certainly not the 1948 Arab 'leadership' that summarily rejected the
U.N. partition plan. And certainly not the 1948 Arab countries that
invaded and annexed the area, to hell with what you please to call a
'Palestinian State', claiming the, so called, 'border' that map shows
for "Israel" does not exist and there are no 'borders' at all. And
certainly not the 1967 Arab states that again invaded but lost their
previously invaded territory, again insisting there are no 'borders'.

(See below for what was "designated.")

The map also fails to explain that Israel REMOVED their Gaza
settlements. And that's before we even get into those maps being
derived from the "Palestinian delegation" who, arguably, don't have an
exactly 'unbiased' opinion on the matter.

The fact remains there never was, never ever, a 'Palestinian state',
nor any 'agreement' to a 'Palestinian state', from which to make those
kind of claims. And the lack of 'agreement' is particularly
interesting as it is the 'Arab leadership' that has steadfastly
refused each and every attempt at one going back to the very first
offer after the Ottoman Empire broke apart.

Sometimes life is strange. I was talking to my mother who was brought up in Egypt during WW2. We had never talked about Israel
before - but it seemed topical. She related a wartime (postwar ?) event - a school friend of hers was in a club frequented by
British people (she went to an English school in Alexandria) which was bombed by Jewish terrorists.

Anecdotal stories don't mean much and especially not when the
'anecdote' doesn't even know what was what but if I had to guess I'd
imagine she's referring to the King David Hotel bombing as the
columns, hence the bomb, were located in the basement Regence night
club. It fits the time period and what little of the anecdote there
is.

The King David Hotel had been commandeered by the British for the
central offices of the British Mandatory, headquarters of the British
Forces, and military communications center, exclusively occupying more
than 2/3's of the hotel. This was originally to have been temporary
but, well, WWII and all, they just never got around to building
anything else..

The point is that, during hostilities, it is not unreasonable to see
it as a military target.

The incident revolved around what the British military dubbed
Operation Agatha, known within Israel then and now as "Black
Saturday". British troops broke into and searched the Jewish Agency,
confiscating large quantities of documents which were then taken to
and secured at their headquarters in, surprise, the King David Hotel.

The point here is that the purpose of the bombing was not to 'kill
people' but to destroy illegally seized (at least by their viewpoint)
documents being held at a military installation: the previously
commandeered King David Hotel.

Roughly 25-27 minutes before the blast the Irgun telephoned the King
David Hotel warning them of the impending explosion and to evacuate.
They also called the adjacent French Consulate telling them to open
their windows to prevent glass breakage from injuring the occupants.
They also called the Palestine Post newspaper who they knew would, and
did, also call the King David Hotel, and the police. (it's worth
noting that during the planting of the bomb itself, Arab workers in
the kitchen were warned to flee [which they did])

The French Consulate heeded the warning, opened their widows, and
closed curtains. The British at the King David Hotel ignored the
first, direct, call but finally took some heed of the Palestine Post
call, resulting in the discovery of 'milk churns' (ostensibly used to
carry in the explosives) in the basement, but did no evacuation.

91 people were killed with 5 being members of the public.

One can debate lots of things, like whether the British raid was
'legal' or 'justified', when, if ever, 'rebellion' against a
(supposed) 'legal authority' is justified, what constitutes a 'legal
authority', whether the bombing was the 'best response', and so on,
but I'm not making an argument for either or any. One thing that IS
certain, though: the King David Hotel bombing does not fit the profile
of your typical terrorist "let's kill people for the sake of killing
people' strategy and to put it in that category is "our side is good,
their side is evil" demagoguery.

It seems that the
terrorists did not like the fact that the British were impeding Jews from emigrating into Palestine.

Imagine that. Their race is being systematically exterminated by the
millions upon millions and the British, to whom they remained loyal
during the war, refuses to grant safe harbor in their ancestral
homeland, without which (a confirmed 'place to go') they cannot leave
the countries exterminating them. What's not to like?

Btw, Article 6. of the League of Nations British Mandate states

"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and
position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall
facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall
encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency. referred to in
Article 4, close settlement by Jews, on the land, including State
lands and waste lands not required for public purposes."

The "White Paper" was arguably in violation of the Mandate.

As for a 'country', Article 2 of the Mandate states

"The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such
political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the
establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the
preamble, and the development of self -governing institutions, and
also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the
inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

The name "Palestine," as defined by the Mandate (it has no meaning
prior as the Ottoman Empire made no such distinction), consisted of
the entire region encompassing what, today, we call Israel, the (so
called) disputed territories, and Jordan (originally Transjordan).
Everyone in that region were "Palestinians' of the newly minted
"Palestine."

It is easily arguable that, if you're going to divvy it up because the
British concluded these yahoos can't get along in one state, Jordan
represents (and 'is') the 'Arab Palestinian state' of the Palestine
Mandate and that what's being disputed now is how much of the mandated
"Jewish national home" will be left. With, of course, your stated
position being "wipe them off the map."

Now, I'm not saying that's the only interpretation, just that it's not
so blooming simple and 'obvious', except to flaming anti-Semitic "wipe
them off the map" bigots.

So, no matter whether the
Ben Gurion quotation is a fabrication or not, the reality is that that is what has been happening - and continues to happen to
this day.

I said it being a fabrication wouldn't matter one whit to you. That's
the great thing about being a flaming, hate filled, bigot: nothing
matters but the bigotry and there's, unfortunately, plenty of other
flaming, hate filled, bigots to share new exciting fabrications with.

I suggest therefore that you educate yourself to what is actually happening before you accuse me of blind bigotry.

Bigots always want people 'educated' to their bigotry.

You are a 'bigot' because your 'solutions' always involve wiping
'their kind' off the map for the benefit of your 'favored kind'.

You are a 'blind bigot' because you blindly accept any and all
demonizations of your hated target, ascribing said demonizations to
each and every member, while blindly ignoring or dismissing any and
all evidence or arguments to the contrary.

Hitler did exactly the same thing and the German people had, at least,
the insufficient excuse they were not allowed to even hear an
alternate view. What's your excuse?


Mullens is such an established bigot, and anti-Semite... he's been in
my kill-file for years.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:52:28 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:45:28 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:07:58 +0100, richard
wrote:




flipper wrote:



On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:





flipper wrote:




On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:






flipper wrote:





On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:






- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.







- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?






and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.






and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.


Perfect example of turnspeak.




You attribute statements to me that I have never made.


Piffle





The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves


The FACTS prove that a falsehood and propagating falsehoods does
nothing but make the matter worse.


The "facts" prove no such thing.


They most certainly do.



- so it is no wonder that there is opposition

from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace.

Proof: Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt.


I said "is" not "was".


That's a farcical slight of hand. The only means to show intent is by
declaration and past behavior, both of which you summarily discard and
substitute your own manufactured bigotry and hatred for




As for the disputed territories, while both Egypt and Jordan illegally
annexed portions of the mandate after the 1948 war Israel did not
after the 1967 war.

"No intention?" A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza
Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994
Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.

Under the auspices of 'lunatic' Bush, in 2003, the Israeli government
issued a plan for total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the
northern West Bank by late 2005. This became known as the
Disengagement Plan. In August 2005, the Israel Defense Forces and
Israeli police forcibly removed all settlers from the Gaza Strip.
Israel completed the disengagement on September 12, 2005.

The Gaza strip was too troublesome for the Israelis to hold onto.


It's more 'trouble' now than then. Which is not much of an incentive
to make further concessions.




It is rank lying ass propaganda to proclaim "there is no intention
whatsoever to exchange land for peace" when they've fraking DONE it,
and more than once.


Again I refer you to the meaning of the word "is".


I refer you to the farce of your 'referral'.




Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.


Take it up with the local governing authority: Hamas and Fatah.

As for "occupied," despite propaganda the term has no basis in
international law or history in relation to Israel's control of the
disputed areas as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no
operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June
1967. I.E. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war

from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a

legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or
East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.

That's just casuistic nonsense.


It's a fact but, then, facts don't mean anything to fanatics. It's not
what you want so pooh.




Further, the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West
Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to
"cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by
another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have
never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.

Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they
certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental
powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo
Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying
Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power
exercises the functions of government in such territory..."




The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map"


It's about time you admitted your intent. It makes for such a cordial
negotiating position: "hi, we'd like to wipe your country off the
map."

That is, of course, why you tried to hide it.




however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.


LOL


Laugh you may but


Oh I'm not laughing at the consequences that would befall citizens of
Israel as you 'wiped from the map' their country. I'm laughing at you
being stupid enough to make the claim.




Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.


Sieg Heil


Israel is the new Nazi state - bent on subjugating the Palestinians, denying them access to water, evicting them from their
homes and taking their land.


More turnspeak. The one who insists the other should be wiped off the
map accuses *them* of being what they, themselves, are. Just like the
Grand Mufti, who allied with Hitler, recruited Arabs for the
Arabisches Freiheitkorps, and then accused 'the jews' of being NAZI
sympathizers.




I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.


That's one reason the surrounding countries perpetuate the problem:
it's a lovely propaganda tool.

There was no 'Palestinian problem' when the Arab League attacked in
1948, there were no 'occupied territories' when the PLO formed in 1964
nor when the Arab countries decided to try again in 1967.




When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict.


Got a real problem with 'Jews', don't ya?

I've not got a problem, it is your problem to justify their immoral actions - it is you that is on the defensive.


No problem, just need to wipe them off the map

You would be hilarious if it weren't so serious.




I see your problem. Imagine them wanting to live in and around the
city of Jerusalem they built, historical capital and most holy city,
as if they couldn't just go to one of their many other countries. Not
like the Arabs who're stuck with only that one little patch of ground.
Well, besides the rest of the Middle East.

And it's a good thing Islamic terrorist groups have no 'holy dogma',
eh? I mean, other than believing the entire world, having been created
by Allah, should be dictatorially governed by their interpretation of
Islamic law.

Israel and Al Queda deserve each other.
Religious fruitcases both.


As I said from the beginning, you do no one any favors in
demonstrating your blind bigotry and how utterly impossible it is to
reason with the likes of you.

The only thing missing is the rabid froth around your mouth.



Tis a real conundrum how the conflict has lasted this long with Israel
being so 'unreasonable' about slitting it's own throat, especially
with you and terrorists hurling all that love, peace, and 'humanity'
their way.





The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.


No, they're 'bought' by the military-industrial complex, No, wait,
they're 'bought' by the drug companies. No, wait, they're 'bought' by
big oil. No, wait, they're 'bought' by the insurance companies. No,
wait, they're 'bought' by wall street. No, wait...

The first pathetic excuse everyone uses is "they're bought by insert
argument of convenience boogie man"

They're bought by money which each of the above examples supplies - including Isreali interests.


It is patently absurd to imagine all those competing interests somehow
magically coincide in your grand conspiracy.




Get a clue. The reason is they've traditionally not been so stupid as
you to make the patently absurd claim that wiping Israel off the map
is 'humane' and "does not imply any harm to the Jewish people."

That, my understanding, is Iran's position. See it from their point of view - a new aggressive people have placed themselves in

their midst and have been taken the land from around them by force.


Iran is not an Arab country, you bigoted twit, and they don't border
on Israel nor do they even border on the border countries.

Don't let that slow you down, though. Whip out a Nazi broadcast on the
'international conspiracy of jews'.



“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee
of its Arab population.” - Ben Gurion.


That widely circulated, supposed, 'quote' is a fabrication allegedly
from The Koenig Memorandum except neither that quote nor the name Ben
Gurion appear anywhere in it.

Of course, that it's a fabrication won't matter one whit to a flaming,
hate consumed, bigot like you any more than it did to the flaming,
hate consumed, bigots that fabricated it.

Let's hope no one in Israel reads this group because if I were them
I'd be calling up the reserves and forming a defense perimeter at the
mere suggestion you might be on the way to 'negotiate'.



Before I start let's get a few things straight. I never claimed every
Jewish person that ever lived was flawless and filled with nothing but
the milk of human kindness. Shortcoming befall all persons, races,
faiths, and governments.

But I don't demonize the entire 'white race', or 'Christians', or 'the
Tea Party', or whatever the currently favored bigotry is, because
Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building nor do I blame all Islam,
or all Palestinians, or all Arabs because of terrorists, a distinction
I have always made. Nor have I suggested, like you, they 'deserve each
other'.

What I said was your anti-Semitic bigotry does no favors for the
people you claim to care about because it stokes perpetual hated and
virtually guarantees war.


It is pretty much a waste of time talking to you since it would seem that you deny the evidence that is plain for everyone else
to see:-
The seige of Gaza. The attacks on civilians in Gaza, the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. The "targeted
assassinations", the forgery of passports of friendly countries for the purposes of murder. The use of phosphorus munitions on
civilians. The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. The theft of land - and so on.


It's a "waste of time" for you because I don't restrict my readings to
only self serving commentaries by flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists, nor am I simple minded enough to imagine one can
indiscriminately lob missiles on civilian populations and then scream
'foul' when they fight back.

That doesn't mean I expect everyone has been 'flawless' but if you
engage in war then you get a war along the attendant consequences,
flaws and all.

Here's a little tip. If you care about civilian casualties then, for
starters, don't put your fracking missile launchers in schools and
hospitals.


I suggest that you make your way over to http://mondediplo.com/maps/ and look at the maps of the middle east and watch the
annexation of land from the Palestinians as a function of time. As a sampler, look at
http://mondediplo.com/maps/palestinianterritory200002 to see a snapshot taken in 2001 of the extent of the takeover of
Palestinian lands.


OMG, there be jews here. And after flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists thought they'd come so close to "the final solution."

No one 'hates' Jews, right? Just don't want any of 'their kind' within
a thousand miles of the 'ought to be' purged and 'clean' lands.

Here's a thought. How about "No problem. We'll be glad to have those
settlements in our new Arab Palestinian State with full citizenship
just like everyone else. Of course, if they would prefer to relocate
then we will not object, nor encourage them to do so."

Btw, "The land designated for the future Palestinian state" by WHO?
Certainly not the 1948 Arab 'leadership' that summarily rejected the
U.N. partition plan. And certainly not the 1948 Arab countries that
invaded and annexed the area, to hell with what you please to call a
'Palestinian State', claiming the, so called, 'border' that map shows
for "Israel" does not exist and there are no 'borders' at all. And
certainly not the 1967 Arab states that again invaded but lost their
previously invaded territory, again insisting there are no 'borders'.

(See below for what was "designated.")

The map also fails to explain that Israel REMOVED their Gaza
settlements. And that's before we even get into those maps being
derived from the "Palestinian delegation" who, arguably, don't have an
exactly 'unbiased' opinion on the matter.

The map was a snaphot taken in 2001. I stated that in my post. How thick are you ?


The fact remains there never was, never ever, a 'Palestinian state',
nor any 'agreement' to a 'Palestinian state', from which to make those
kind of claims. And the lack of 'agreement' is particularly
interesting as it is the 'Arab leadership' that has steadfastly
refused each and every attempt at one going back to the very first
offer after the Ottoman Empire broke apart.


Sometimes life is strange. I was talking to my mother who was brought up in Egypt during WW2. We had never talked about Israel
before - but it seemed topical. She related a wartime (postwar ?) event - a school friend of hers was in a club frequented by
British people (she went to an English school in Alexandria) which was bombed by Jewish terrorists.


Anecdotal stories don't mean much and especially not when the
'anecdote' doesn't even know what was what but if I had to guess I'd
imagine she's referring to the King David Hotel bombing as the
columns, hence the bomb, were located in the basement Regence night
club. It fits the time period and what little of the anecdote there
is.

I believe that the attack I'm talking of took place in Alexandria.
Admittedly the report by my mother is anecdotal.
All I'm suggesting is that the Isrealis are no strangers to terror.


The King David Hotel had been commandeered by the British for the
central offices of the British Mandatory, headquarters of the British
Forces, and military communications center, exclusively occupying more
than 2/3's of the hotel. This was originally to have been temporary
but, well, WWII and all, they just never got around to building
anything else..

The point is that, during hostilities, it is not unreasonable to see
it as a military target.

The incident revolved around what the British military dubbed
Operation Agatha, known within Israel then and now as "Black
Saturday". British troops broke into and searched the Jewish Agency,
confiscating large quantities of documents which were then taken to
and secured at their headquarters in, surprise, the King David Hotel.

The point here is that the purpose of the bombing was not to 'kill
people' but to destroy illegally seized (at least by their viewpoint)
documents being held at a military installation: the previously
commandeered King David Hotel.

Roughly 25-27 minutes before the blast the Irgun telephoned the King
David Hotel warning them of the impending explosion and to evacuate.
They also called the adjacent French Consulate telling them to open
their windows to prevent glass breakage from injuring the occupants.
They also called the Palestine Post newspaper who they knew would, and
did, also call the King David Hotel, and the police. (it's worth
noting that during the planting of the bomb itself, Arab workers in
the kitchen were warned to flee [which they did])

The French Consulate heeded the warning, opened their widows, and
closed curtains. The British at the King David Hotel ignored the
first, direct, call but finally took some heed of the Palestine Post
call, resulting in the discovery of 'milk churns' (ostensibly used to
carry in the explosives) in the basement, but did no evacuation.

91 people were killed with 5 being members of the public.

One can debate lots of things, like whether the British raid was
'legal' or 'justified', when, if ever, 'rebellion' against a
(supposed) 'legal authority' is justified, what constitutes a 'legal
authority', whether the bombing was the 'best response', and so on,
but I'm not making an argument for either or any. One thing that IS
certain, though: the King David Hotel bombing does not fit the profile
of your typical terrorist "let's kill people for the sake of killing
people' strategy and to put it in that category is "our side is good,
their side is evil" demagoguery.

You come across as an Israeli apologist - but this lack of concern for civilian lives is not an isolated incident and I am
suggesting that there is a pattern here - right up to the present date.

It seems that the
terrorists did not like the fact that the British were impeding Jews from emigrating into Palestine.


Imagine that. Their race is being systematically exterminated by the
millions upon millions and the British, to whom they remained loyal
during the war, refuses to grant safe harbor in their ancestral
homeland, without which (a confirmed 'place to go') they cannot leave
the countries exterminating them. What's not to like?

Btw, Article 6. of the League of Nations British Mandate states

"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and
position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall
facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall
encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency. referred to in
Article 4, close settlement by Jews, on the land, including State
lands and waste lands not required for public purposes."

The "White Paper" was arguably in violation of the Mandate.

As for a 'country', Article 2 of the Mandate states

"The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such
political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the
establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the
preamble, and the development of self -governing institutions, and
also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the
inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

The name "Palestine," as defined by the Mandate (it has no meaning
prior as the Ottoman Empire made no such distinction), consisted of
the entire region encompassing what, today, we call Israel, the (so
called) disputed territories, and Jordan (originally Transjordan).
Everyone in that region were "Palestinians' of the newly minted
"Palestine."

It is easily arguable that, if you're going to divvy it up because the
British concluded these yahoos can't get along in one state, Jordan
represents (and 'is') the 'Arab Palestinian state' of the Palestine
Mandate and that what's being disputed now is how much of the mandated
"Jewish national home" will be left. With, of course, your stated
position being "wipe them off the map."

Now, I'm not saying that's the only interpretation, just that it's not
so blooming simple and 'obvious', except to flaming anti-Semitic "wipe
them off the map" bigots.


So, no matter whether the
Ben Gurion quotation is a fabrication or not, the reality is that that is what has been happening - and continues to happen to
this day.


I said it being a fabrication wouldn't matter one whit to you. That's
the great thing about being a flaming, hate filled, bigot: nothing
matters but the bigotry and there's, unfortunately, plenty of other
flaming, hate filled, bigots to share new exciting fabrications with.

Nevertheless, the reality is as I describe. Terror, land annexation and so on.

I suggest therefore that you educate yourself to what is actually happening before you accuse me of blind bigotry.


Bigots always want people 'educated' to their bigotry.

You are a 'bigot' because your 'solutions' always involve wiping
'their kind' off the map for the benefit of your 'favored kind'.

You are a 'blind bigot' because you blindly accept any and all
demonizations of your hated target, ascribing said demonizations to
each and every member, while blindly ignoring or dismissing any and
all evidence or arguments to the contrary.

Hitler did exactly the same thing and the German people had, at least,
the insufficient excuse they were not allowed to even hear an
alternate view. What's your excuse?



Sorry, It is you with your long and tiresome intemperate posts that misrepresent my position who comes across as a bigot.
Many see Israel as a regime practicing "apartheid" against a weaker indigenous population - that is my position - and for this
reason I take steps to avoid purchase of any items of an Israeli origin.

There is a growing understanding of the injustice of Israeli policy. I cite as evidence the arrest warrant taken out against
Livni Tzipi, the EU interdiction on claiming that items are of Israeli origin when they come from East Jerusalem, calls to ban
Israeli academics, the Goldstone and Amnesty International reports on Gaza and so on. This realisation is not "anti-semitism",
rather it is a recognition by the intelligensia that things have to change - and it seems for the first time that the awareness
has seeped into the American administration, where it is recognised that Israeli policy is inimical to US interests. That, it
seems to me, is a positive step which should be applauded.

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:35:15 -0500, flipper wrote:


On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:52:28 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:45:28 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:07:58 +0100, richard
wrote:




flipper wrote:



On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:





flipper wrote:




On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:






flipper wrote:





On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:






- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.







- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?






and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.






and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.


Perfect example of turnspeak.




You attribute statements to me that I have never made.


Piffle





The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves


The FACTS prove that a falsehood and propagating falsehoods does
nothing but make the matter worse.


The "facts" prove no such thing.


They most certainly do.



- so it is no wonder that there is opposition

from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace.

Proof: Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt.


I said "is" not "was".


That's a farcical slight of hand. The only means to show intent is by
declaration and past behavior, both of which you summarily discard and
substitute your own manufactured bigotry and hatred for




As for the disputed territories, while both Egypt and Jordan illegally
annexed portions of the mandate after the 1948 war Israel did not
after the 1967 war.

"No intention?" A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza
Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994
Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.

Under the auspices of 'lunatic' Bush, in 2003, the Israeli government
issued a plan for total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the
northern West Bank by late 2005. This became known as the
Disengagement Plan. In August 2005, the Israel Defense Forces and
Israeli police forcibly removed all settlers from the Gaza Strip.
Israel completed the disengagement on September 12, 2005.

The Gaza strip was too troublesome for the Israelis to hold onto.


It's more 'trouble' now than then. Which is not much of an incentive
to make further concessions.




It is rank lying ass propaganda to proclaim "there is no intention
whatsoever to exchange land for peace" when they've fraking DONE it,
and more than once.


Again I refer you to the meaning of the word "is".


I refer you to the farce of your 'referral'.




Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.


Take it up with the local governing authority: Hamas and Fatah.

As for "occupied," despite propaganda the term has no basis in
international law or history in relation to Israel's control of the
disputed areas as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no
operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June
1967. I.E. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war

from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a

legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or
East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.

That's just casuistic nonsense.


It's a fact but, then, facts don't mean anything to fanatics. It's not
what you want so pooh.




Further, the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West
Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to
"cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by
another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have
never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.

Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they
certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental
powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo
Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying
Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power
exercises the functions of government in such territory..."




The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map"


It's about time you admitted your intent. It makes for such a cordial
negotiating position: "hi, we'd like to wipe your country off the
map."

That is, of course, why you tried to hide it.




however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.


LOL


Laugh you may but


Oh I'm not laughing at the consequences that would befall citizens of
Israel as you 'wiped from the map' their country. I'm laughing at you
being stupid enough to make the claim.




Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.


Sieg Heil


Israel is the new Nazi state - bent on subjugating the Palestinians, denying them access to water, evicting them from their
homes and taking their land.


More turnspeak. The one who insists the other should be wiped off the
map accuses *them* of being what they, themselves, are. Just like the
Grand Mufti, who allied with Hitler, recruited Arabs for the
Arabisches Freiheitkorps, and then accused 'the jews' of being NAZI
sympathizers.




I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.


That's one reason the surrounding countries perpetuate the problem:
it's a lovely propaganda tool.

There was no 'Palestinian problem' when the Arab League attacked in
1948, there were no 'occupied territories' when the PLO formed in 1964
nor when the Arab countries decided to try again in 1967.




When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict.


Got a real problem with 'Jews', don't ya?

I've not got a problem, it is your problem to justify their immoral actions - it is you that is on the defensive.


No problem, just need to wipe them off the map

You would be hilarious if it weren't so serious.




I see your problem. Imagine them wanting to live in and around the
city of Jerusalem they built, historical capital and most holy city,
as if they couldn't just go to one of their many other countries. Not
like the Arabs who're stuck with only that one little patch of ground.
Well, besides the rest of the Middle East.

And it's a good thing Islamic terrorist groups have no 'holy dogma',
eh? I mean, other than believing the entire world, having been created
by Allah, should be dictatorially governed by their interpretation of
Islamic law.

Israel and Al Queda deserve each other.
Religious fruitcases both.


As I said from the beginning, you do no one any favors in
demonstrating your blind bigotry and how utterly impossible it is to
reason with the likes of you.

The only thing missing is the rabid froth around your mouth.



Tis a real conundrum how the conflict has lasted this long with Israel
being so 'unreasonable' about slitting it's own throat, especially
with you and terrorists hurling all that love, peace, and 'humanity'
their way.





The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.


No, they're 'bought' by the military-industrial complex, No, wait,
they're 'bought' by the drug companies. No, wait, they're 'bought' by
big oil. No, wait, they're 'bought' by the insurance companies. No,
wait, they're 'bought' by wall street. No, wait...

The first pathetic excuse everyone uses is "they're bought by insert
argument of convenience boogie man"

They're bought by money which each of the above examples supplies - including Isreali interests.


It is patently absurd to imagine all those competing interests somehow
magically coincide in your grand conspiracy.




Get a clue. The reason is they've traditionally not been so stupid as
you to make the patently absurd claim that wiping Israel off the map
is 'humane' and "does not imply any harm to the Jewish people."

That, my understanding, is Iran's position. See it from their point of view - a new aggressive people have placed themselves in

their midst and have been taken the land from around them by force.


Iran is not an Arab country, you bigoted twit, and they don't border
on Israel nor do they even border on the border countries.

Don't let that slow you down, though. Whip out a Nazi broadcast on the
'international conspiracy of jews'.



“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee
of its Arab population.” - Ben Gurion.


That widely circulated, supposed, 'quote' is a fabrication allegedly
from The Koenig Memorandum except neither that quote nor the name Ben
Gurion appear anywhere in it.

Of course, that it's a fabrication won't matter one whit to a flaming,
hate consumed, bigot like you any more than it did to the flaming,
hate consumed, bigots that fabricated it.

Let's hope no one in Israel reads this group because if I were them
I'd be calling up the reserves and forming a defense perimeter at the
mere suggestion you might be on the way to 'negotiate'.


Before I start let's get a few things straight. I never claimed every
Jewish person that ever lived was flawless and filled with nothing but
the milk of human kindness. Shortcoming befall all persons, races,
faiths, and governments.

But I don't demonize the entire 'white race', or 'Christians', or 'the
Tea Party', or whatever the currently favored bigotry is, because
Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building nor do I blame all Islam,
or all Palestinians, or all Arabs because of terrorists, a distinction
I have always made. Nor have I suggested, like you, they 'deserve each
other'.

What I said was your anti-Semitic bigotry does no favors for the
people you claim to care about because it stokes perpetual hated and
virtually guarantees war.


It is pretty much a waste of time talking to you since it would seem that you deny the evidence that is plain for everyone else
to see:-
The seige of Gaza. The attacks on civilians in Gaza, the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. The "targeted
assassinations", the forgery of passports of friendly countries for the purposes of murder. The use of phosphorus munitions on
civilians. The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. The theft of land - and so on.

It's a "waste of time" for you because I don't restrict my readings to
only self serving commentaries by flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists, nor am I simple minded enough to imagine one can
indiscriminately lob missiles on civilian populations and then scream
'foul' when they fight back.

That doesn't mean I expect everyone has been 'flawless' but if you
engage in war then you get a war along the attendant consequences,
flaws and all.

Here's a little tip. If you care about civilian casualties then, for
starters, don't put your fracking missile launchers in schools and
hospitals.


I suggest that you make your way over to http://mondediplo.com/maps/ and look at the maps of the middle east and watch the
annexation of land from the Palestinians as a function of time. As a sampler, look at
http://mondediplo.com/maps/palestinianterritory200002 to see a snapshot taken in 2001 of the extent of the takeover of
Palestinian lands.

OMG, there be jews here. And after flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists thought they'd come so close to "the final solution."

No one 'hates' Jews, right? Just don't want any of 'their kind' within
a thousand miles of the 'ought to be' purged and 'clean' lands.

Here's a thought. How about "No problem. We'll be glad to have those
settlements in our new Arab Palestinian State with full citizenship
just like everyone else. Of course, if they would prefer to relocate
then we will not object, nor encourage them to do so."

Btw, "The land designated for the future Palestinian state" by WHO?
Certainly not the 1948 Arab 'leadership' that summarily rejected the
U.N. partition plan. And certainly not the 1948 Arab countries that
invaded and annexed the area, to hell with what you please to call a
'Palestinian State', claiming the, so called, 'border' that map shows
for "Israel" does not exist and there are no 'borders' at all. And
certainly not the 1967 Arab states that again invaded but lost their
previously invaded territory, again insisting there are no 'borders'.

(See below for what was "designated.")

The map also fails to explain that Israel REMOVED their Gaza
settlements. And that's before we even get into those maps being
derived from the "Palestinian delegation" who, arguably, don't have an
exactly 'unbiased' opinion on the matter.

The fact remains there never was, never ever, a 'Palestinian state',
nor any 'agreement' to a 'Palestinian state', from which to make those
kind of claims. And the lack of 'agreement' is particularly
interesting as it is the 'Arab leadership' that has steadfastly
refused each and every attempt at one going back to the very first
offer after the Ottoman Empire broke apart.


Sometimes life is strange. I was talking to my mother who was brought up in Egypt during WW2. We had never talked about Israel
before - but it seemed topical. She related a wartime (postwar ?) event - a school friend of hers was in a club frequented by
British people (she went to an English school in Alexandria) which was bombed by Jewish terrorists.

Anecdotal stories don't mean much and especially not when the
'anecdote' doesn't even know what was what but if I had to guess I'd
imagine she's referring to the King David Hotel bombing as the
columns, hence the bomb, were located in the basement Regence night
club. It fits the time period and what little of the anecdote there
is.

The King David Hotel had been commandeered by the British for the
central offices of the British Mandatory, headquarters of the British
Forces, and military communications center, exclusively occupying more
than 2/3's of the hotel. This was originally to have been temporary
but, well, WWII and all, they just never got around to building
anything else..

The point is that, during hostilities, it is not unreasonable to see
it as a military target.

The incident revolved around what the British military dubbed
Operation Agatha, known within Israel then and now as "Black
Saturday". British troops broke into and searched the Jewish Agency,
confiscating large quantities of documents which were then taken to
and secured at their headquarters in, surprise, the King David Hotel.

The point here is that the purpose of the bombing was not to 'kill
people' but to destroy illegally seized (at least by their viewpoint)
documents being held at a military installation: the previously
commandeered King David Hotel.

Roughly 25-27 minutes before the blast the Irgun telephoned the King
David Hotel warning them of the impending explosion and to evacuate.
They also called the adjacent French Consulate telling them to open
their windows to prevent glass breakage from injuring the occupants.
They also called the Palestine Post newspaper who they knew would, and
did, also call the King David Hotel, and the police. (it's worth
noting that during the planting of the bomb itself, Arab workers in
the kitchen were warned to flee [which they did])

The French Consulate heeded the warning, opened their widows, and
closed curtains. The British at the King David Hotel ignored the
first, direct, call but finally took some heed of the Palestine Post
call, resulting in the discovery of 'milk churns' (ostensibly used to
carry in the explosives) in the basement, but did no evacuation.

91 people were killed with 5 being members of the public.

One can debate lots of things, like whether the British raid was
'legal' or 'justified', when, if ever, 'rebellion' against a
(supposed) 'legal authority' is justified, what constitutes a 'legal
authority', whether the bombing was the 'best response', and so on,
but I'm not making an argument for either or any. One thing that IS
certain, though: the King David Hotel bombing does not fit the profile
of your typical terrorist "let's kill people for the sake of killing
people' strategy and to put it in that category is "our side is good,
their side is evil" demagoguery.


It seems that the
terrorists did not like the fact that the British were impeding Jews from emigrating into Palestine.

Imagine that. Their race is being systematically exterminated by the
millions upon millions and the British, to whom they remained loyal
during the war, refuses to grant safe harbor in their ancestral
homeland, without which (a confirmed 'place to go') they cannot leave
the countries exterminating them. What's not to like?

Btw, Article 6. of the League of Nations British Mandate states

"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and
position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall
facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall
encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency. referred to in
Article 4, close settlement by Jews, on the land, including State
lands and waste lands not required for public purposes."

The "White Paper" was arguably in violation of the Mandate.

As for a 'country', Article 2 of the Mandate states

"The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such
political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the
establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the
preamble, and the development of self -governing institutions, and
also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the
inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

The name "Palestine," as defined by the Mandate (it has no meaning
prior as the Ottoman Empire made no such distinction), consisted of
the entire region encompassing what, today, we call Israel, the (so
called) disputed territories, and Jordan (originally Transjordan).
Everyone in that region were "Palestinians' of the newly minted
"Palestine."

It is easily arguable that, if you're going to divvy it up because the
British concluded these yahoos can't get along in one state, Jordan
represents (and 'is') the 'Arab Palestinian state' of the Palestine
Mandate and that what's being disputed now is how much of the mandated
"Jewish national home" will be left. With, of course, your stated
position being "wipe them off the map."

Now, I'm not saying that's the only interpretation, just that it's not
so blooming simple and 'obvious', except to flaming anti-Semitic "wipe
them off the map" bigots.


So, no matter whether the
Ben Gurion quotation is a fabrication or not, the reality is that that is what has been happening - and continues to happen to
this day.

I said it being a fabrication wouldn't matter one whit to you. That's
the great thing about being a flaming, hate filled, bigot: nothing
matters but the bigotry and there's, unfortunately, plenty of other
flaming, hate filled, bigots to share new exciting fabrications with.


I suggest therefore that you educate yourself to what is actually happening before you accuse me of blind bigotry.

Bigots always want people 'educated' to their bigotry.

You are a 'bigot' because your 'solutions' always involve wiping
'their kind' off the map for the benefit of your 'favored kind'.

You are a 'blind bigot' because you blindly accept any and all
demonizations of your hated target, ascribing said demonizations to
each and every member, while blindly ignoring or dismissing any and
all evidence or arguments to the contrary.

Hitler did exactly the same thing and the German people had, at least,
the insufficient excuse they were not allowed to even hear an
alternate view. What's your excuse?



Mullens is such an established bigot, and anti-Semite... he's been in
my kill-file for years.

...Jim Thompson

A clearer example of the "pot calling the kettle black" is harder to imagine.
Nobody gives a **** about your kill file. You are perfectly entitled to wear blinkers should this be your desire.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:25:19 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:39:43 +0100, richard
wrote:

[snip]

There is a growing understanding of the injustice of Israeli policy. I cite as evidence the arrest warrant taken out against
Livni Tzipi, the EU interdiction on claiming that items are of Israeli origin when they come from East Jerusalem, calls to ban
Israeli academics, the Goldstone and Amnesty International reports on Gaza and so on. This realisation is not "anti-semitism",
rather it is a recognition by the intelligensia that things have to change - and it seems for the first time that the awareness
has seeped into the American administration, where it is recognised that Israeli policy is inimical to US interests. That, it
seems to me, is a positive step which should be applauded.

There's no shortage of bigots in the world, 'intelligentsia' or
otherwise, and, of course, a bigot applauds it.

I never said Israeli policy was flawless or that I agreed with every
nuance of it. What I said was your flaming, hate filled, "wipe them
off the map" bigotry does no favors for the people you claim to care
about.

Crikey! 722 lines (unwrapped) crap to/from you and the Nazi.

Just ignore Mullens until the round-up :-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy

flipper wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:39:43 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:52:28 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:45:28 +0100, richard
wrote:




flipper wrote:



On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:07:58 +0100, richard
wrote:





flipper wrote:




On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:






flipper wrote:





On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:







flipper wrote:






On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:







- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.








- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?







and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.







and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.


Perfect example of turnspeak.





You attribute statements to me that I have never made.


Piffle






The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves


The FACTS prove that a falsehood and propagating falsehoods does
nothing but make the matter worse.


The "facts" prove no such thing.


They most certainly do.




- so it is no wonder that there is opposition

from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace.

Proof: Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt.


I said "is" not "was".


That's a farcical slight of hand. The only means to show intent is by
declaration and past behavior, both of which you summarily discard and
substitute your own manufactured bigotry and hatred for





As for the disputed territories, while both Egypt and Jordan illegally
annexed portions of the mandate after the 1948 war Israel did not
after the 1967 war.

"No intention?" A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza
Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994
Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.

Under the auspices of 'lunatic' Bush, in 2003, the Israeli government
issued a plan for total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the
northern West Bank by late 2005. This became known as the
Disengagement Plan. In August 2005, the Israel Defense Forces and
Israeli police forcibly removed all settlers from the Gaza Strip.
Israel completed the disengagement on September 12, 2005.

The Gaza strip was too troublesome for the Israelis to hold onto.


It's more 'trouble' now than then. Which is not much of an incentive
to make further concessions.





It is rank lying ass propaganda to proclaim "there is no intention
whatsoever to exchange land for peace" when they've fraking DONE it,
and more than once.


Again I refer you to the meaning of the word "is".


I refer you to the farce of your 'referral'.





Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.


Take it up with the local governing authority: Hamas and Fatah.

As for "occupied," despite propaganda the term has no basis in
international law or history in relation to Israel's control of the
disputed areas as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no
operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June
1967. I.E. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war

from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a


legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or
East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.

That's just casuistic nonsense.


It's a fact but, then, facts don't mean anything to fanatics. It's not
what you want so pooh.





Further, the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West
Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to
"cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by
another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have
never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.

Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they
certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental
powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo
Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying
Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power
exercises the functions of government in such territory..."





The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map"


It's about time you admitted your intent. It makes for such a cordial
negotiating position: "hi, we'd like to wipe your country off the
map."

That is, of course, why you tried to hide it.





however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.


LOL


Laugh you may but


Oh I'm not laughing at the consequences that would befall citizens of
Israel as you 'wiped from the map' their country. I'm laughing at you
being stupid enough to make the claim.





Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.


Sieg Heil


Israel is the new Nazi state - bent on subjugating the Palestinians, denying them access to water, evicting them from their
homes and taking their land.


More turnspeak. The one who insists the other should be wiped off the
map accuses *them* of being what they, themselves, are. Just like the
Grand Mufti, who allied with Hitler, recruited Arabs for the
Arabisches Freiheitkorps, and then accused 'the jews' of being NAZI
sympathizers.





I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.


That's one reason the surrounding countries perpetuate the problem:
it's a lovely propaganda tool.

There was no 'Palestinian problem' when the Arab League attacked in
1948, there were no 'occupied territories' when the PLO formed in 1964
nor when the Arab countries decided to try again in 1967.





When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict.


Got a real problem with 'Jews', don't ya?

I've not got a problem, it is your problem to justify their immoral actions - it is you that is on the defensive.


No problem, just need to wipe them off the map

You would be hilarious if it weren't so serious.





I see your problem. Imagine them wanting to live in and around the
city of Jerusalem they built, historical capital and most holy city,
as if they couldn't just go to one of their many other countries. Not
like the Arabs who're stuck with only that one little patch of ground.
Well, besides the rest of the Middle East.

And it's a good thing Islamic terrorist groups have no 'holy dogma',
eh? I mean, other than believing the entire world, having been created
by Allah, should be dictatorially governed by their interpretation of
Islamic law.

Israel and Al Queda deserve each other.
Religious fruitcases both.


As I said from the beginning, you do no one any favors in
demonstrating your blind bigotry and how utterly impossible it is to
reason with the likes of you.

The only thing missing is the rabid froth around your mouth.




Tis a real conundrum how the conflict has lasted this long with Israel
being so 'unreasonable' about slitting it's own throat, especially
with you and terrorists hurling all that love, peace, and 'humanity'
their way.






The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.


No, they're 'bought' by the military-industrial complex, No, wait,
they're 'bought' by the drug companies. No, wait, they're 'bought' by
big oil. No, wait, they're 'bought' by the insurance companies. No,
wait, they're 'bought' by wall street. No, wait...

The first pathetic excuse everyone uses is "they're bought by insert
argument of convenience boogie man"

They're bought by money which each of the above examples supplies - including Isreali interests.


It is patently absurd to imagine all those competing interests somehow
magically coincide in your grand conspiracy.





Get a clue. The reason is they've traditionally not been so stupid as
you to make the patently absurd claim that wiping Israel off the map
is 'humane' and "does not imply any harm to the Jewish people."

That, my understanding, is Iran's position. See it from their point of view - a new aggressive people have placed themselves in

their midst and have been taken the land from around them by force.


Iran is not an Arab country, you bigoted twit, and they don't border
on Israel nor do they even border on the border countries.

Don't let that slow you down, though. Whip out a Nazi broadcast on the
'international conspiracy of jews'.




“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee
of its Arab population.” - Ben Gurion.


That widely circulated, supposed, 'quote' is a fabrication allegedly

from The Koenig Memorandum except neither that quote nor the name Ben

Gurion appear anywhere in it.

Of course, that it's a fabrication won't matter one whit to a flaming,
hate consumed, bigot like you any more than it did to the flaming,
hate consumed, bigots that fabricated it.

Let's hope no one in Israel reads this group because if I were them
I'd be calling up the reserves and forming a defense perimeter at the
mere suggestion you might be on the way to 'negotiate'.



Before I start let's get a few things straight. I never claimed every
Jewish person that ever lived was flawless and filled with nothing but
the milk of human kindness. Shortcoming befall all persons, races,
faiths, and governments.

But I don't demonize the entire 'white race', or 'Christians', or 'the
Tea Party', or whatever the currently favored bigotry is, because
Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building nor do I blame all Islam,
or all Palestinians, or all Arabs because of terrorists, a distinction
I have always made. Nor have I suggested, like you, they 'deserve each
other'.

What I said was your anti-Semitic bigotry does no favors for the
people you claim to care about because it stokes perpetual hated and
virtually guarantees war.



It is pretty much a waste of time talking to you since it would seem that you deny the evidence that is plain for everyone else
to see:-
The seige of Gaza. The attacks on civilians in Gaza, the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. The "targeted
assassinations", the forgery of passports of friendly countries for the purposes of murder. The use of phosphorus munitions on
civilians. The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. The theft of land - and so on.


It's a "waste of time" for you because I don't restrict my readings to
only self serving commentaries by flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists, nor am I simple minded enough to imagine one can
indiscriminately lob missiles on civilian populations and then scream
'foul' when they fight back.

That doesn't mean I expect everyone has been 'flawless' but if you
engage in war then you get a war along the attendant consequences,
flaws and all.

Here's a little tip. If you care about civilian casualties then, for
starters, don't put your fracking missile launchers in schools and
hospitals.



I suggest that you make your way over to http://mondediplo.com/maps/ and look at the maps of the middle east and watch the
annexation of land from the Palestinians as a function of time. As a sampler, look at
http://mondediplo.com/maps/palestinianterritory200002 to see a snapshot taken in 2001 of the extent of the takeover of
Palestinian lands.


OMG, there be jews here. And after flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists thought they'd come so close to "the final solution."

No one 'hates' Jews, right? Just don't want any of 'their kind' within
a thousand miles of the 'ought to be' purged and 'clean' lands.

Here's a thought. How about "No problem. We'll be glad to have those
settlements in our new Arab Palestinian State with full citizenship
just like everyone else. Of course, if they would prefer to relocate
then we will not object, nor encourage them to do so."

Btw, "The land designated for the future Palestinian state" by WHO?
Certainly not the 1948 Arab 'leadership' that summarily rejected the
U.N. partition plan. And certainly not the 1948 Arab countries that
invaded and annexed the area, to hell with what you please to call a
'Palestinian State', claiming the, so called, 'border' that map shows
for "Israel" does not exist and there are no 'borders' at all. And
certainly not the 1967 Arab states that again invaded but lost their
previously invaded territory, again insisting there are no 'borders'.

(See below for what was "designated.")

The map also fails to explain that Israel REMOVED their Gaza
settlements. And that's before we even get into those maps being
derived from the "Palestinian delegation" who, arguably, don't have an
exactly 'unbiased' opinion on the matter.

The map was a snaphot taken in 2001. I stated that in my post. How thick are you ?


I know the date. That doesn't alter the fact it's a misrepresentation.
All it does is highlight you knew it was a misrepresentation.



The fact remains there never was, never ever, a 'Palestinian state',
nor any 'agreement' to a 'Palestinian state', from which to make those
kind of claims. And the lack of 'agreement' is particularly
interesting as it is the 'Arab leadership' that has steadfastly
refused each and every attempt at one going back to the very first
offer after the Ottoman Empire broke apart.



Sometimes life is strange. I was talking to my mother who was brought up in Egypt during WW2. We had never talked about Israel
before - but it seemed topical. She related a wartime (postwar ?) event - a school friend of hers was in a club frequented by
British people (she went to an English school in Alexandria) which was bombed by Jewish terrorists.


Anecdotal stories don't mean much and especially not when the
'anecdote' doesn't even know what was what but if I had to guess I'd
imagine she's referring to the King David Hotel bombing as the
columns, hence the bomb, were located in the basement Regence night
club. It fits the time period and what little of the anecdote there
is.

I believe that the attack I'm talking of took place in Alexandria.
Admittedly the report by my mother is anecdotal.
All I'm suggesting is that the Isrealis are no strangers to terror.


You claim an unknown anecdote knowing not one thing about it but,
somehow, the 'know nothing' is 'evidence' of "no strangers to terror."

Bigots, of course, don't need to know anything because they already
just 'know' how 'those people' are.



The King David Hotel had been commandeered by the British for the
central offices of the British Mandatory, headquarters of the British
Forces, and military communications center, exclusively occupying more
than 2/3's of the hotel. This was originally to have been temporary
but, well, WWII and all, they just never got around to building
anything else..

The point is that, during hostilities, it is not unreasonable to see
it as a military target.

The incident revolved around what the British military dubbed
Operation Agatha, known within Israel then and now as "Black
Saturday". British troops broke into and searched the Jewish Agency,
confiscating large quantities of documents which were then taken to
and secured at their headquarters in, surprise, the King David Hotel.

The point here is that the purpose of the bombing was not to 'kill
people' but to destroy illegally seized (at least by their viewpoint)
documents being held at a military installation: the previously
commandeered King David Hotel.

Roughly 25-27 minutes before the blast the Irgun telephoned the King
David Hotel warning them of the impending explosion and to evacuate.
They also called the adjacent French Consulate telling them to open
their windows to prevent glass breakage from injuring the occupants.
They also called the Palestine Post newspaper who they knew would, and
did, also call the King David Hotel, and the police. (it's worth
noting that during the planting of the bomb itself, Arab workers in
the kitchen were warned to flee [which they did])

The French Consulate heeded the warning, opened their widows, and
closed curtains. The British at the King David Hotel ignored the
first, direct, call but finally took some heed of the Palestine Post
call, resulting in the discovery of 'milk churns' (ostensibly used to
carry in the explosives) in the basement, but did no evacuation.

91 people were killed with 5 being members of the public.

One can debate lots of things, like whether the British raid was
'legal' or 'justified', when, if ever, 'rebellion' against a
(supposed) 'legal authority' is justified, what constitutes a 'legal
authority', whether the bombing was the 'best response', and so on,
but I'm not making an argument for either or any. One thing that IS
certain, though: the King David Hotel bombing does not fit the profile
of your typical terrorist "let's kill people for the sake of killing
people' strategy and to put it in that category is "our side is good,
their side is evil" demagoguery.


You come across as an Israeli apologist


Typical. I believe the Nazi appellation was "Jew lover."


- but this lack of concern for civilian lives is not an isolated incident


Sending multiple warnings to the target, and a military one at that,
does not demonstrate a "lack of concern for civilian lives"

Shall we count up the number of warnings suicide bombers have
delivered?


and I am
suggesting that there is a pattern here - right up to the present date.


You're not "suggesting" anything. You're a bigot demonizing your hated
target.



It seems that the
terrorists did not like the fact that the British were impeding Jews from emigrating into Palestine.


Imagine that. Their race is being systematically exterminated by the
millions upon millions and the British, to whom they remained loyal
during the war, refuses to grant safe harbor in their ancestral
homeland, without which (a confirmed 'place to go') they cannot leave
the countries exterminating them. What's not to like?

Btw, Article 6. of the League of Nations British Mandate states

"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and
position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall
facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall
encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency. referred to in
Article 4, close settlement by Jews, on the land, including State
lands and waste lands not required for public purposes."

The "White Paper" was arguably in violation of the Mandate.

As for a 'country', Article 2 of the Mandate states

"The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such
political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the
establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the
preamble, and the development of self -governing institutions, and
also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the
inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

The name "Palestine," as defined by the Mandate (it has no meaning
prior as the Ottoman Empire made no such distinction), consisted of
the entire region encompassing what, today, we call Israel, the (so
called) disputed territories, and Jordan (originally Transjordan).
Everyone in that region were "Palestinians' of the newly minted
"Palestine."

It is easily arguable that, if you're going to divvy it up because the
British concluded these yahoos can't get along in one state, Jordan
represents (and 'is') the 'Arab Palestinian state' of the Palestine
Mandate and that what's being disputed now is how much of the mandated
"Jewish national home" will be left. With, of course, your stated
position being "wipe them off the map."

Now, I'm not saying that's the only interpretation, just that it's not
so blooming simple and 'obvious', except to flaming anti-Semitic "wipe
them off the map" bigots.



So, no matter whether the
Ben Gurion quotation is a fabrication or not, the reality is that that is what has been happening - and continues to happen to
this day.


I said it being a fabrication wouldn't matter one whit to you. That's
the great thing about being a flaming, hate filled, bigot: nothing
matters but the bigotry and there's, unfortunately, plenty of other
flaming, hate filled, bigots to share new exciting fabrications with.


Nevertheless, the reality is as I describe. Terror, land annexation and so on.


Nothing but your bigotry is as you describe and I have demonstrated it
over and over with documentation and fact.



I suggest therefore that you educate yourself to what is actually happening before you accuse me of blind bigotry.


Bigots always want people 'educated' to their bigotry.

You are a 'bigot' because your 'solutions' always involve wiping
'their kind' off the map for the benefit of your 'favored kind'.

You are a 'blind bigot' because you blindly accept any and all
demonizations of your hated target, ascribing said demonizations to
each and every member, while blindly ignoring or dismissing any and
all evidence or arguments to the contrary.

Hitler did exactly the same thing and the German people had, at least,
the insufficient excuse they were not allowed to even hear an
alternate view. What's your excuse?



Sorry, It is you with your long and tiresome intemperate posts that misrepresent my position who comes across as a bigot.


I've not misrepresented anything. You said specifically "The state of
Israel should indeed be 'wiped from the map'" and they 'deserve' Al
Qaeda. That's just a taste of it with the rest being typical bigot "we
are angels but they are the spawn of Satan" hysterical tirades of
distortion, misrepresentation, fabrication, and falsehoods.

Btw, since you claim I'm a 'bigot' can you at least tell me what race
you are so I'll have a clue what race I'm supposed to be hating?


My statement is of course provocative - but I can't see how someone might object to a proposal for a unitary state that gave
equal rights to all people - Jewish and Palestinian - in place of what is abundantly an apartheid regime.

I see no essential difference between settler types who believe they have a god given right to "the holy land" and those who
wish to restore a muslim caliphate to Spain. They are both extremists - and it is my impression that the government of Israel
relies upon the settler types for its continued existence - and therefore has to enact discriminatory policies. Hence my remark
about Israel and Al Qaeda deserving each other. To pursue the analogy further, the number of deaths in 9/11 are of the same
order of magnitude as those inflicted on Gaza by Israel's recent reign of terror there.

I'm caucasian.


Many see Israel as a regime practicing "apartheid" against a weaker indigenous population - that is my position - and for this
reason I take steps to avoid purchase of any items of an Israeli origin.

There is a growing understanding of the injustice of Israeli policy. I cite as evidence the arrest warrant taken out against
Livni Tzipi, the EU interdiction on claiming that items are of Israeli origin when they come from East Jerusalem, calls to ban
Israeli academics, the Goldstone and Amnesty International reports on Gaza and so on. This realisation is not "anti-semitism",
rather it is a recognition by the intelligensia that things have to change - and it seems for the first time that the awareness
has seeped into the American administration, where it is recognised that Israeli policy is inimical to US interests. That, it
seems to me, is a positive step which should be applauded.


There's no shortage of bigots in the world, 'intelligentsia' or
otherwise, and, of course, a bigot applauds it.

I never said Israeli policy was flawless or that I agreed with every
nuance of it. What I said was your flaming, hate filled, "wipe them
off the map" bigotry does no favors for the people you claim to care
about.


The language may seem intemperate - but the logic is compelling in my opinion.

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:25:19 -0500, flipper wrote:


On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:39:43 +0100, richard
wrote:


[snip]

There is a growing understanding of the injustice of Israeli policy. I cite as evidence the arrest warrant taken out against
Livni Tzipi, the EU interdiction on claiming that items are of Israeli origin when they come from East Jerusalem, calls to ban
Israeli academics, the Goldstone and Amnesty International reports on Gaza and so on. This realisation is not "anti-semitism",
rather it is a recognition by the intelligensia that things have to change - and it seems for the first time that the awareness
has seeped into the American administration, where it is recognised that Israeli policy is inimical to US interests. That, it
seems to me, is a positive step which should be applauded.

There's no shortage of bigots in the world, 'intelligentsia' or
otherwise, and, of course, a bigot applauds it.

I never said Israeli policy was flawless or that I agreed with every
nuance of it. What I said was your flaming, hate filled, "wipe them
off the map" bigotry does no favors for the people you claim to care
about.


Crikey! 722 lines (unwrapped) crap to/from you and the Nazi.

Just ignore Mullens until the round-up :-)


Well, when I think of JT I think of a kindred spirit ;-)

In sci.electronics.cad flipper wrote:
fg
It takes only two lines to add another step of indentation. No need to add
several hundred lines ...

--
Uwe Bonnes

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

flipper wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:58:57 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:39:43 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:52:28 +0100, richard
wrote:




flipper wrote:



On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:45:28 +0100, richard
wrote:





flipper wrote:




On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:07:58 +0100, richard
wrote:






flipper wrote:





On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:







flipper wrote:






On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:








flipper wrote:







On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:








- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.









- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?








and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.








and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.


Perfect example of turnspeak.






You attribute statements to me that I have never made.


Piffle







The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves


The FACTS prove that a falsehood and propagating falsehoods does
nothing but make the matter worse.


The "facts" prove no such thing.


They most certainly do.





- so it is no wonder that there is opposition

from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace.

Proof: Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt.


I said "is" not "was".


That's a farcical slight of hand. The only means to show intent is by
declaration and past behavior, both of which you summarily discard and
substitute your own manufactured bigotry and hatred for






As for the disputed territories, while both Egypt and Jordan illegally
annexed portions of the mandate after the 1948 war Israel did not
after the 1967 war.

"No intention?" A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza
Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994
Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.

Under the auspices of 'lunatic' Bush, in 2003, the Israeli government
issued a plan for total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the
northern West Bank by late 2005. This became known as the
Disengagement Plan. In August 2005, the Israel Defense Forces and
Israeli police forcibly removed all settlers from the Gaza Strip.
Israel completed the disengagement on September 12, 2005.

The Gaza strip was too troublesome for the Israelis to hold onto.


It's more 'trouble' now than then. Which is not much of an incentive
to make further concessions.






It is rank lying ass propaganda to proclaim "there is no intention
whatsoever to exchange land for peace" when they've fraking DONE it,
and more than once.


Again I refer you to the meaning of the word "is".


I refer you to the farce of your 'referral'.






Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.


Take it up with the local governing authority: Hamas and Fatah.

As for "occupied," despite propaganda the term has no basis in
international law or history in relation to Israel's control of the
disputed areas as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no
operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June
1967. I.E. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war

from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a



legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or
East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.

That's just casuistic nonsense.


It's a fact but, then, facts don't mean anything to fanatics. It's not
what you want so pooh.






Further, the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West
Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to
"cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by
another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have
never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.

Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they
certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental
powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo
Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying
Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power
exercises the functions of government in such territory..."






The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map"


It's about time you admitted your intent. It makes for such a cordial
negotiating position: "hi, we'd like to wipe your country off the
map."

That is, of course, why you tried to hide it.






however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.


LOL


Laugh you may but


Oh I'm not laughing at the consequences that would befall citizens of
Israel as you 'wiped from the map' their country. I'm laughing at you
being stupid enough to make the claim.






Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.


Sieg Heil


Israel is the new Nazi state - bent on subjugating the Palestinians, denying them access to water, evicting them from their
homes and taking their land.


More turnspeak. The one who insists the other should be wiped off the
map accuses *them* of being what they, themselves, are. Just like the
Grand Mufti, who allied with Hitler, recruited Arabs for the
Arabisches Freiheitkorps, and then accused 'the jews' of being NAZI
sympathizers.






I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.


That's one reason the surrounding countries perpetuate the problem:
it's a lovely propaganda tool.

There was no 'Palestinian problem' when the Arab League attacked in
1948, there were no 'occupied territories' when the PLO formed in 1964
nor when the Arab countries decided to try again in 1967.






When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict.


Got a real problem with 'Jews', don't ya?

I've not got a problem, it is your problem to justify their immoral actions - it is you that is on the defensive.


No problem, just need to wipe them off the map

You would be hilarious if it weren't so serious.






I see your problem. Imagine them wanting to live in and around the
city of Jerusalem they built, historical capital and most holy city,
as if they couldn't just go to one of their many other countries. Not
like the Arabs who're stuck with only that one little patch of ground.
Well, besides the rest of the Middle East.

And it's a good thing Islamic terrorist groups have no 'holy dogma',
eh? I mean, other than believing the entire world, having been created
by Allah, should be dictatorially governed by their interpretation of
Islamic law.

Israel and Al Queda deserve each other.
Religious fruitcases both.


As I said from the beginning, you do no one any favors in
demonstrating your blind bigotry and how utterly impossible it is to
reason with the likes of you.

The only thing missing is the rabid froth around your mouth.





Tis a real conundrum how the conflict has lasted this long with Israel
being so 'unreasonable' about slitting it's own throat, especially
with you and terrorists hurling all that love, peace, and 'humanity'
their way.







The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.


No, they're 'bought' by the military-industrial complex, No, wait,
they're 'bought' by the drug companies. No, wait, they're 'bought' by
big oil. No, wait, they're 'bought' by the insurance companies. No,
wait, they're 'bought' by wall street. No, wait...

The first pathetic excuse everyone uses is "they're bought by insert
argument of convenience boogie man"

They're bought by money which each of the above examples supplies - including Isreali interests.


It is patently absurd to imagine all those competing interests somehow
magically coincide in your grand conspiracy.






Get a clue. The reason is they've traditionally not been so stupid as
you to make the patently absurd claim that wiping Israel off the map
is 'humane' and "does not imply any harm to the Jewish people."

That, my understanding, is Iran's position. See it from their point of view - a new aggressive people have placed themselves in

their midst and have been taken the land from around them by force.


Iran is not an Arab country, you bigoted twit, and they don't border
on Israel nor do they even border on the border countries.

Don't let that slow you down, though. Whip out a Nazi broadcast on the
'international conspiracy of jews'.





“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee
of its Arab population.” - Ben Gurion.


That widely circulated, supposed, 'quote' is a fabrication allegedly

from The Koenig Memorandum except neither that quote nor the name Ben


Gurion appear anywhere in it.

Of course, that it's a fabrication won't matter one whit to a flaming,
hate consumed, bigot like you any more than it did to the flaming,
hate consumed, bigots that fabricated it.

Let's hope no one in Israel reads this group because if I were them
I'd be calling up the reserves and forming a defense perimeter at the
mere suggestion you might be on the way to 'negotiate'.



Before I start let's get a few things straight. I never claimed every
Jewish person that ever lived was flawless and filled with nothing but
the milk of human kindness. Shortcoming befall all persons, races,
faiths, and governments.

But I don't demonize the entire 'white race', or 'Christians', or 'the
Tea Party', or whatever the currently favored bigotry is, because
Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building nor do I blame all Islam,
or all Palestinians, or all Arabs because of terrorists, a distinction
I have always made. Nor have I suggested, like you, they 'deserve each
other'.

What I said was your anti-Semitic bigotry does no favors for the
people you claim to care about because it stokes perpetual hated and
virtually guarantees war.




It is pretty much a waste of time talking to you since it would seem that you deny the evidence that is plain for everyone else
to see:-
The seige of Gaza. The attacks on civilians in Gaza, the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. The "targeted
assassinations", the forgery of passports of friendly countries for the purposes of murder. The use of phosphorus munitions on
civilians. The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. The theft of land - and so on.


It's a "waste of time" for you because I don't restrict my readings to
only self serving commentaries by flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists, nor am I simple minded enough to imagine one can
indiscriminately lob missiles on civilian populations and then scream
'foul' when they fight back.

That doesn't mean I expect everyone has been 'flawless' but if you
engage in war then you get a war along the attendant consequences,
flaws and all.

Here's a little tip. If you care about civilian casualties then, for
starters, don't put your fracking missile launchers in schools and
hospitals.




I suggest that you make your way over to http://mondediplo.com/maps/ and look at the maps of the middle east and watch the
annexation of land from the Palestinians as a function of time. As a sampler, look at
http://mondediplo.com/maps/palestinianterritory200002 to see a snapshot taken in 2001 of the extent of the takeover of
Palestinian lands.


OMG, there be jews here. And after flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists thought they'd come so close to "the final solution."

No one 'hates' Jews, right? Just don't want any of 'their kind' within
a thousand miles of the 'ought to be' purged and 'clean' lands.

Here's a thought. How about "No problem. We'll be glad to have those
settlements in our new Arab Palestinian State with full citizenship
just like everyone else. Of course, if they would prefer to relocate
then we will not object, nor encourage them to do so."

Btw, "The land designated for the future Palestinian state" by WHO?
Certainly not the 1948 Arab 'leadership' that summarily rejected the
U.N. partition plan. And certainly not the 1948 Arab countries that
invaded and annexed the area, to hell with what you please to call a
'Palestinian State', claiming the, so called, 'border' that map shows
for "Israel" does not exist and there are no 'borders' at all. And
certainly not the 1967 Arab states that again invaded but lost their
previously invaded territory, again insisting there are no 'borders'.

(See below for what was "designated.")

The map also fails to explain that Israel REMOVED their Gaza
settlements. And that's before we even get into those maps being
derived from the "Palestinian delegation" who, arguably, don't have an
exactly 'unbiased' opinion on the matter.

The map was a snaphot taken in 2001. I stated that in my post. How thick are you ?


I know the date. That doesn't alter the fact it's a misrepresentation.
All it does is highlight you knew it was a misrepresentation.




The fact remains there never was, never ever, a 'Palestinian state',
nor any 'agreement' to a 'Palestinian state', from which to make those
kind of claims. And the lack of 'agreement' is particularly
interesting as it is the 'Arab leadership' that has steadfastly
refused each and every attempt at one going back to the very first
offer after the Ottoman Empire broke apart.




Sometimes life is strange. I was talking to my mother who was brought up in Egypt during WW2. We had never talked about Israel
before - but it seemed topical. She related a wartime (postwar ?) event - a school friend of hers was in a club frequented by
British people (she went to an English school in Alexandria) which was bombed by Jewish terrorists.


Anecdotal stories don't mean much and especially not when the
'anecdote' doesn't even know what was what but if I had to guess I'd
imagine she's referring to the King David Hotel bombing as the
columns, hence the bomb, were located in the basement Regence night
club. It fits the time period and what little of the anecdote there
is.

I believe that the attack I'm talking of took place in Alexandria.
Admittedly the report by my mother is anecdotal.
All I'm suggesting is that the Isrealis are no strangers to terror.


You claim an unknown anecdote knowing not one thing about it but,
somehow, the 'know nothing' is 'evidence' of "no strangers to terror."

Bigots, of course, don't need to know anything because they already
just 'know' how 'those people' are.




The King David Hotel had been commandeered by the British for the
central offices of the British Mandatory, headquarters of the British
Forces, and military communications center, exclusively occupying more
than 2/3's of the hotel. This was originally to have been temporary
but, well, WWII and all, they just never got around to building
anything else..

The point is that, during hostilities, it is not unreasonable to see
it as a military target.

The incident revolved around what the British military dubbed
Operation Agatha, known within Israel then and now as "Black
Saturday". British troops broke into and searched the Jewish Agency,
confiscating large quantities of documents which were then taken to
and secured at their headquarters in, surprise, the King David Hotel.

The point here is that the purpose of the bombing was not to 'kill
people' but to destroy illegally seized (at least by their viewpoint)
documents being held at a military installation: the previously
commandeered King David Hotel.

Roughly 25-27 minutes before the blast the Irgun telephoned the King
David Hotel warning them of the impending explosion and to evacuate.
They also called the adjacent French Consulate telling them to open
their windows to prevent glass breakage from injuring the occupants.
They also called the Palestine Post newspaper who they knew would, and
did, also call the King David Hotel, and the police. (it's worth
noting that during the planting of the bomb itself, Arab workers in
the kitchen were warned to flee [which they did])

The French Consulate heeded the warning, opened their widows, and
closed curtains. The British at the King David Hotel ignored the
first, direct, call but finally took some heed of the Palestine Post
call, resulting in the discovery of 'milk churns' (ostensibly used to
carry in the explosives) in the basement, but did no evacuation.

91 people were killed with 5 being members of the public.

One can debate lots of things, like whether the British raid was
'legal' or 'justified', when, if ever, 'rebellion' against a
(supposed) 'legal authority' is justified, what constitutes a 'legal
authority', whether the bombing was the 'best response', and so on,
but I'm not making an argument for either or any. One thing that IS
certain, though: the King David Hotel bombing does not fit the profile
of your typical terrorist "let's kill people for the sake of killing
people' strategy and to put it in that category is "our side is good,
their side is evil" demagoguery.


You come across as an Israeli apologist


Typical. I believe the Nazi appellation was "Jew lover."



- but this lack of concern for civilian lives is not an isolated incident


Sending multiple warnings to the target, and a military one at that,
does not demonstrate a "lack of concern for civilian lives"

Shall we count up the number of warnings suicide bombers have
delivered?



and I am
suggesting that there is a pattern here - right up to the present date.


You're not "suggesting" anything. You're a bigot demonizing your hated
target.




It seems that the
terrorists did not like the fact that the British were impeding Jews from emigrating into Palestine.


Imagine that. Their race is being systematically exterminated by the
millions upon millions and the British, to whom they remained loyal
during the war, refuses to grant safe harbor in their ancestral
homeland, without which (a confirmed 'place to go') they cannot leave
the countries exterminating them. What's not to like?

Btw, Article 6. of the League of Nations British Mandate states

"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and
position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall
facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall
encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency. referred to in
Article 4, close settlement by Jews, on the land, including State
lands and waste lands not required for public purposes."

The "White Paper" was arguably in violation of the Mandate.

As for a 'country', Article 2 of the Mandate states

"The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such
political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the
establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the
preamble, and the development of self -governing institutions, and
also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the
inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

The name "Palestine," as defined by the Mandate (it has no meaning
prior as the Ottoman Empire made no such distinction), consisted of
the entire region encompassing what, today, we call Israel, the (so
called) disputed territories, and Jordan (originally Transjordan).
Everyone in that region were "Palestinians' of the newly minted
"Palestine."

It is easily arguable that, if you're going to divvy it up because the
British concluded these yahoos can't get along in one state, Jordan
represents (and 'is') the 'Arab Palestinian state' of the Palestine
Mandate and that what's being disputed now is how much of the mandated
"Jewish national home" will be left. With, of course, your stated
position being "wipe them off the map."

Now, I'm not saying that's the only interpretation, just that it's not
so blooming simple and 'obvious', except to flaming anti-Semitic "wipe
them off the map" bigots.




So, no matter whether the
Ben Gurion quotation is a fabrication or not, the reality is that that is what has been happening - and continues to happen to
this day.


I said it being a fabrication wouldn't matter one whit to you. That's
the great thing about being a flaming, hate filled, bigot: nothing
matters but the bigotry and there's, unfortunately, plenty of other
flaming, hate filled, bigots to share new exciting fabrications with.


Nevertheless, the reality is as I describe. Terror, land annexation and so on.


Nothing but your bigotry is as you describe and I have demonstrated it
over and over with documentation and fact.




I suggest therefore that you educate yourself to what is actually happening before you accuse me of blind bigotry.


Bigots always want people 'educated' to their bigotry.

You are a 'bigot' because your 'solutions' always involve wiping
'their kind' off the map for the benefit of your 'favored kind'.

You are a 'blind bigot' because you blindly accept any and all
demonizations of your hated target, ascribing said demonizations to
each and every member, while blindly ignoring or dismissing any and
all evidence or arguments to the contrary.

Hitler did exactly the same thing and the German people had, at least,
the insufficient excuse they were not allowed to even hear an
alternate view. What's your excuse?



Sorry, It is you with your long and tiresome intemperate posts that misrepresent my position who comes across as a bigot.


I've not misrepresented anything. You said specifically "The state of
Israel should indeed be 'wiped from the map'" and they 'deserve' Al
Qaeda. That's just a taste of it with the rest being typical bigot "we
are angels but they are the spawn of Satan" hysterical tirades of
distortion, misrepresentation, fabrication, and falsehoods.

Btw, since you claim I'm a 'bigot' can you at least tell me what race
you are so I'll have a clue what race I'm supposed to be hating?


My statement is of course provocative


No, it was patently absurd.

In your opinion.

There's something unpleasant about a zealot flipper. I guess it is their unshakeable faith in their cause where everywhere
other people have had their fill of their objectionable behaviour.



- but I can't see how someone might object to a proposal for a unitary state that gave
equal rights to all people - Jewish and Palestinian


That's what the British thought till the Arab 'leadership' rejected it
in one breath and their repeated attempts to 'purge' the region
indicates that position has not changed.


And who was living in Palestine before millions of Jewish people emigrated there ?

And your statement "wiped from the map" is not a gesture of
'pluralism' nor an indication you, or they, desire to live among who
you call 'terrorists' and 'Nazis'.

Tell you what, go out there and propose a unitary secular state,
neither Jewish or Islamic, equal rights to all people, and see how
fast your Palestinian leadership jump to say yes. Then we'll work on
the Israelis.


There is no trust - so this is only something that could be imposed.
I read your sarcasm and find you unpleasant - which I guess is your aim.



- in place of what is abundantly an apartheid regime.


In fact it isn't. See below.


I see no essential difference between settler types who believe they have a god given right to "the holy land" and those who
wish to restore a muslim caliphate to Spain.


Of course you don't, with that little difference of one wanting to
live in their one and only ancestral homeland while the other wants to
rule the world notwithstanding.

Yes that's right. The Arabs want to live in their ancestral home while the Jews want to take over the world.
The realisation has dawned upon you at last.


The Israelis are not on a holy quest to make everyone a 'Jew' and, so,
are not out to kill anyone who stands in their way of it. They're
perfectly fine with living and praying on their little patch of land
and you doing whatever floats your boat, as long as that isn't killing
their people or trying to wipe them off the map.


They are both extremists


No, it is just your bigoted need to generate false equivalencies in
order to demonize your hated target.

The people who carpet bombed Lebanon and peppered the place with cluster bombs to kill kids for a generation are lacking in
morals. Just as are those who bulldozed Jenin with the inhabitants in their houses. http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/



- and it is my impression that the government of Israel
relies upon the settler types for its continued existence


Couldn't possibly be that people would like to build a home to live
in, eh?

And you are happy for America to be overrun by Mexicans and others from Central and South America ?
Hypocrite is the word that comes to my mind.


And in the supposed 'pluralistic ideal' you now claim to mean what's
wrong with them living together in the same land? It's what you now
claim to be 'for'.


- and therefore has to enact discriminatory policies. Hence my remark
about Israel and Al Qaeda deserving each other.


Another patently absurd false equivalency because, as already noted,
the Israelis are not out to make everyone a Jew, nor make everyone
follow their religion, while Al Qaeda is, and I can't recall the last
time anyone was murdered for not wearing the sanctioned Israeli garb
or for an improper Jewish beard length. But such things were rampant
in 'Al Qaeda Iraq'.


Nevertheless Israel acts in a discriminatory manner against the Arabs.


To pursue the analogy further, the number of deaths in 9/11 are of the same
order of magnitude as those inflicted on Gaza by Israel's recent reign of terror there.


And the deaths inflicted by our retaliation dwarfs both.

You have a serious problem grasping the concept of 'attacker' vs
'defender'. The object of defense is to stop the attacker, not
exchange deaths 1-1. If they stop after 1 death then great but if they
keep fighting then it goes on till they stop.

Put in simple terms, stop lobbing missiles on cities, and other acts
of war, and you don't get shot at. Capisce?

No, I don't get it. The people of Gaza are under seige and under the circumstances their actions are quite understandable. It
is my opinion that in fact it is Israel's policy to pressurise the Palestinians to give themselves justification to pursue their
frankly genocidal policies.


Similarly, if you engage in acts of war don't act 'surprised' or
'outraged' that they fight back.


I'm caucasian.


Ah. Well, that explains it. We know about 'your kind'.

Actually I think that you're a prat.

Many see Israel as a regime practicing "apartheid" against a weaker indigenous population - that is my position - and for this
reason I take steps to avoid purchase of any items of an Israeli origin.

There is a growing understanding of the injustice of Israeli policy. I cite as evidence the arrest warrant taken out against
Livni Tzipi, the EU interdiction on claiming that items are of Israeli origin when they come from East Jerusalem, calls to ban
Israeli academics, the Goldstone and Amnesty International reports on Gaza and so on. This realisation is not "anti-semitism",
rather it is a recognition by the intelligensia that things have to change - and it seems for the first time that the awareness
has seeped into the American administration, where it is recognised that Israeli policy is inimical to US interests. That, it
seems to me, is a positive step which should be applauded.


There's no shortage of bigots in the world, 'intelligentsia' or
otherwise, and, of course, a bigot applauds it.

I never said Israeli policy was flawless or that I agreed with every
nuance of it. What I said was your flaming, hate filled, "wipe them
off the map" bigotry does no favors for the people you claim to care
about.


The language may seem intemperate


I gave you every chance to be 'temperate' in saying your rhetoric did
no one any favors but all you did was get more and more bigoted.

In your opinion. In my opinion it is you who is the bigot and spouting the most bile.

- but the logic is compelling in my opinion.


I haven't seen any 'logic'. Indeed, you've insisted on ignoring any
and all documentation, reason, or fact including the fact that the
unitary state you suddenly claim to mean was rejected multiple times
by the very people you claim to support. Not to mention there is no
example of one in the entire region, except for Israel being the
closest with an Arab population around 20%.

Arabs serve in the Knesset (and have since the first in 1949).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...of_the_Knesset

Salim Joubran, an Arab Israeli, is a permanent member of the Supreme
Court.

That doesn't mean they're angels but it's a boat load away from
'apartheid'.

Finding something even remotely similar in the surrounding region is
rather problematic as they expelled virtually all Jews from the late
1800's onward. Post 1948 expulsions alone came to a million or so with
lost property estimated at over 300 billion in current dollars. Jewish
owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands amounted to 100,000 square
kilometers, about four times the size of the state of Israel (1948
cease fire lines).

I don't see anything special about that. My grandmother, of Greek extraction, was not allowed to take her money when she left
Egypt. As I understand she had a fine house in Alexandria with servants - and she was not Jewish.

I'll grant that you have justification for feeling persecuted, but you are by no means alone in that. Armenians, Kurds etc.

The following shows you in full rabid flow, frothing at the mouth, starting with assumptions of my position that you have no way
of knowing:-

Your 'humanitarianism' will, no doubt. demand 'right of return',
restoration, full citizenship, and equal rights for them too, right?

Good. Now, by any 'ethnic accounting' of lands they've been
shortchanged at least 4 to 1 so would you care to place any bets on
how well the 'Arab leadership' would cotton to a 4 to 1 exchange of
land for 'peace' and equity? Come on, it's simple enough. We count up
all the owned lands the Arabs lost (less than the whole State), the
owned lands the Jews lost (4 times the whole State) and carve out an
area for each (two state solution since it is blindingly obvious, by
fact of expulsion, your 'Arab leadership' pals don't want any of them
Jews inside their State) restoring those original quantities. What
could be more fair?

Wow. See there? In just a few minutes we solved the problem in perfect
fairness and equity. I'm afraid the Palestinians will probably need to
relocate but, then, all those Jews had to relocate too so that's wash.
Kinda makes one wonder why their fair minded brothers in the
surrounding states haven't helped them do that already, like Israel
did for their displaced brothers, but let's not get judgmental.

Not so damn simple, is it?

I suggest it isn't too surprising that when Israelis, or anyone else
for that matter, hear "wipe them off the map' it's interpreted to mean
the same thing that's been done to them in the rest of the region:
GONE, every last single one.

If you don't mean to be a bigot then don't talk like one.

You should take that counsel to heart.

This is taken from the UN report. It is just the testimony. There are olther parts.


Testimony of Hajj Ahmad Abu Kharj

With his face all in tears, Hajj Ahmad Mohammad Khalil Abu Kharj walked up to his house, which had been bombed by the Zionist
air force during the offensive against the camp, guiding rescue teams towards the room where the body of his 65-year-old sister,
Yousra Abu Kharj, lay. He was seeing her for the first time since she had been killed on the third day of the attack. He broke
down and sobbed when he saw the martyr's body on the ground, torn apart by shrapnel. It was an unbearable sight even for the
members of the rescue teams. Mr. Abu Kharj made the following statement: "On the third day of the invasion, we heard a very loud
explosion on the top floor of our house (a three-storey house), where my sister was getting her things together and preparing to
join the 13 members of my family. They had fled to the ground floor, seeking refuge from the indiscriminate bombing. After the
explosion shook the entire building, one of my sons went upstairs to look for my sister, but the endless bombing prevented him
from entering the room where she was. Looking through the keyhole, he saw his aunt motionless on the floor, bleeding profusely.
We immediately called for an ambulance and asked the hospital and the Red Crescent to help us, but despite our successive pleas,
no one was able to come and help us."

The Chief of the Red Crescent's Relief and Emergency Department made the following statement: "The family of Yousra Abu Kharj
called us and told us that she was wounded and bleeding profusely. Immediately after that call, one of our emergency teams left
for the camp. That is when armoured vehicles from the Israeli army fired on the vehicle carrying our team, preventing it from
entering the camp. We then called the International Committee of the Red Cross, which made all the necessary contacts but was
unable to ease the situation. As a result, we were not able to reach the Abu Kharj family to do our job." Unfortunately, that
was not the end of it, for Hajj Ahmad, who is over 80, added: "A few hours after the explosion, an Israeli army unit composed of
a number of soldiers forced its way into our house, searched us, confined us to one room, arrested four of my sons and took them
away to unknown locations, then occupied the house, transforming it into a military barracks and taking up positions on the
second floor. I asked the officer-in-charge for permission to go to the third floor to get my sister and make sure she was safe
and sound. The officer refused at first, but when I insisted, he eventually told me that Yousra was dead and that I did not need
to see her. I then asked for permission for the Red Crescent to remove the body to a hospital. That request was denied. We
remained locked up on the ground floor while the martyr lay in her room. Afterwards, Israeli soldiers forced us, under threat of
arms, to leave our home, expelling us and scattering family members. That is why I don't know what has happened to my daughters
and my sons. This is a catastrophe and a real tragedy. My sister posed no danger to the Israeli soldiers. In no way was she
threatening their lives. But despite that, they killed her in cold blood and left her body unburied for 16 days. Under what laws
or rights are such crimes authorized?"


Testimony of the wife of martyr Nasser Abu Hatab

In an area near to the Al Damj district, the army of the Zionist enemy targeted Mr. Nasser Abu Hatab, a married man with four
children, whose wife made the following statement: "I will never forget those moments. The soldiers, disregarding the laws
guaranteeing the inviolability of the home, shot my husband in front of his children for no reason ... It was a Saturday
afternoon, about 4 o'clock, on the third day of the offensive against the Jenin refugee camp. Israeli soldiers knocked on our
door and my husband rushed to open. Terrible things happened. The soldiers grabbed my husband by his neck and immediately
started shooting him, even though he had not kept them waiting, had not resisted in any way and had followed all their
instructions. My husband fell to the ground, covered in blood. Horrified by what was happening, I began to scream and cry. The
soldiers pointed their weapons at me, shouting "Sheket, sheket", and then locked me in another room with my children. That is
when I called the hospital and the Red Crescent and asked them to help us and to save my husband's life. But the Israeli army
refused the emergency teams permission to come to our house." Mr. Abu Hatab died in front of his wife and children. But what was
even more horrible for them is the fact that the soldiers, having confined them for several hours, locked them up in the house
as they left and ordered them not to remove the body. Mrs. Abu Hatab added: "I can't find words to describe conduct that was so
contrary to the most basic human rights. The occupying army locked me up with my children in a room with my husband's corpse,
ordering us not to bury it, not even in the little yard ... What life and what future can my children look forward to after
witnessing this bloodshed with their own eyes and being unable to help their father or bury his body, which remained unburied
for a whole week?"


Story of martyr Ashraf Abu Al-Hija'

Another tragic story is that of the family of Ashraf Mahmoud Abu Al-Hija', a young man whose charred body was found at the home
of one of his relatives in Jaourat Al?Dhahab, in the Jenin camp. Mr. Abu Al-Hija's family made the following statement: "When
the aerial bombing and the shelling of our homes grew worse and the area where we lived became dangerous, we began to leave our
house one by one and go to neighbours' houses. At that point, a shell fell at the entrance to the second floor, starting a fire.
We began to scream, shouting to Ashraf to get out as soon as possible. We called the civil defence people and the emergency
workers to come and rescue Ashraf, who we believed was under fire from all directions. We later learned that the shells had hit
our child directly. He died on the spot and was burnt to a cinder." The Director of the Civil Defence Department made the
following statement: "We received a call from Jaourat Al-Dhahab confirming that a house was on fire. We immediately dispatched
one of our emergency teams, but unfortunately it was blocked by armoured vehicles of the occupying army. The soldiers opened
fire on the civil defence vehicle, then on the ambulance, preventing us from reaching the bombed house." Abu Al-Hija's family
stated that Ashraf's body remained unburied for over two weeks, until the Israeli army evacuated the area. In addition,
occupation forces destroyed 90 per cent of the homes and killed a number of residents. Ashraf's mother made the following
statement: "My son was in a civilian area, not a military area. Despite that, the Israeli army bombed it for over a week, until
its bulldozers and armoured vehicles came in to finish off the job left undone by its aircraft. Clearly, those operations were
planned in advance with the aim of wiping out men, women, children and buildings, in other words, all living creatures and
anything that could remain standing."


Testimony of Mrs. Hind `Aweiss

Mrs. Hind `Aweiss, the mother of 10 children, stated that about a hundred Israeli soldiers invaded her house, remaining for five
days and leaving nothing but ruins in their wake. According to what the residents reported, the soldiers behaved in a savage
manner without any justification, making insolent remarks, pillaging household furniture, breaking a number of articles, writing
the names of their military units on walls, and stealing money and items of value.

The soldiers who invaded Mrs. Hind `Aweiss's home asked all the occupants to leave. She refused, pointing out that she and her
children had nowhere to go, because fighting was raging outside. Initially, the soldiers were content to occupy the two upper
floors. They came back the next day and asked the occupants to evacuate the ground floor. Mrs. `Aweiss later made the following
statement to reporters: "At that point, one of the soldiers grabbed my nephew Rateb, a boy of one and a half, held him under his
arm, pointed his gun at his temple and threatened, in halting Arabic, to shoot him if we refused to leave. That is how they got
us to leave." Mrs. `Aweiss added that the soldier who threatened to kill her nephew was not an officer, but that she could not
identify him, because, like the other soldiers, he had covered his face with black paint. On the other hand, she knew the name
of the unit to which he belonged because his companions in arms had written it in black letters on the walls of her home. It was
the Golani brigade. Mrs. `Aweiss also said that the soldiers set fire to her house before leaving. It was also possible that the
fire was started by a helicopter strike.


Testimony of Oum Haitham

When they returned, the camp's residents began to search through the rubble for documents, identification papers, jewellery that
they had buried underground before they were expelled from their homes, furniture and clothing. However, Oum Haitham found no
trace of what had been her home, and all the clothing and furniture she was able to recover are unusable. She made the following
statement: "They wiped us out and drove us out in the space of a few minutes, destroying the fruits of a lifetime of hardship
and labour. Little Isra' wept bitterly when she reached the place where her house used to stand. She recognized it when she saw
her father searching through the pillars and the debris littering the ground."


Testimony of Mr. Maher Hawwashin

Sitting on a cement block in the middle of the Jenin camp, his head in his hands, Mr. Maher Hawwashin contemplated the pile of
rubble under which his memories and all his family possessions were buried. Mr. Hawwashin stated that after his house had been
completely destroyed, he had been left without resources, not knowing how he and his family would have a roof over their heads
and be able to meet their needs. For the time being, he was staying temporarily with his brother, until his problem and that of
everyone whose house had been destroyed by the enemy troops was settled.


Testimony of persons injured by mine explosions

The camp residents live in terror, fearing for their future and their lives, following the repeated explosion of mines which the
Israeli soldiers left behind.

Mr. Abu Ahmad stated as follows: "They were not satisfied with destroying our houses; they also placed mines everywhere, so that
our lives are constantly threatened. Last Sunday, for instance, as I was entering my house, a mine exploded, injuring me and my
son Mohammed." The camp residents state that after soldiers had placed mines in the districts and in the houses, 10 of the
devices had exploded, injuring 20 Palestinians, most of them children. The chief of the demining unit of the International
Committee of the Red Cross stated that the unit had detected the presence of a large number of suspect devices and mines, which
it had managed to remove and disable, while imploring the camp residents to cooperate with the unit to preserve their lives and
safety. Moreover, the unit had formed several local volunteer teams composed of camp residents who would assist it in detecting
and collecting mines and inspecting houses and local buildings.

Assad Faisal Arssane, aged 10, and Saad Subhi Al-Wahshi, aged 12, are two small boys who were playing with other boys their age
in one of the camp alleys when they were injured by a mine which residents said was placed by soldiers of the occupying army.
Assad, who had to undergo several surgical operations, stated as follows: "I was sitting with my friends from the district,
talking about the raids and killings by the Israeli army. A device exploded as we began playing. I lost consciousness, and when
I came round, I realized that I had lost all my limbs." The doctors at Jenin Hospital said that Assad was very critically
injured and had to have both arms and legs amputated. Saad, for his part, was burned and his body is full of shrapnel.


Testimony of journalists and humanitarian organizations

Even journalists were shocked by the scenes of horror that they witnessed in the Jenin camp. Some of them admitted that they had
difficulty expressing and describing what they were seeing. Walid al-Amri, a reporter for the Qatar television station
Al-Jazeera, stated: "While the Israeli authorities had decided to deny access to the Jenin camp to media outlets and to
prosecute them, we were determined to overcome the difficulties and face up the dangers. We had managed to enter the camp in
order to reveal the truth, which could only be determined by going there. But tanks and snipers tried to prevent anyone from
entering the camp." Al-Amri was one of the first journalists to enter the Jenin camp during the massacre. He stated: "The road
we had taken was dangerous and 'largely impassable. It wasn't easy to enter the camp, and the scenes that we saw from the first
moment were dreadful. We saw burned and dismembered corpses and dozens of houses destroyed, to the point where it seemed we were
in an area hit by a huge earthquake .... The scenes were especially terrible and tragic because the victims were Palestinians
who had been driven from their homes 50 years earlier, and who had been driven out again by the very State that had been
established on the ruins of their houses. ... The most terrible scenes were those of Palestinians, who had been encircled in
their homes for over 20 years. ... The main question we were asking ourselves was how to save the lives of the survivors, after
everything that had happened in the camp and after the unparalleled humanitarian situations we had seen there - people searching
for live persons or corpses under the rubble, a mother or a father searching for their children, a child searching for his
brothers and sisters and his family, or people searching for their homes under the ruins."

In New York, the United States journalist Mary Seral, a correspondent for the Sunday Times, said that she had seen many scenes
in the camp, and that all the images that had been shown and broadcast did not reflect the reality. The facts showed that the
Israeli army had deliberately destroyed the camp and attacked its population in violation of every law. Israeli soldiers
prevented the family of the martyr Gamal Fayed from taking him out of his house, even though he was crippled, was not fighting
and did not pose any security threat to the soldiers. As to the Chinese journalist Shu Suzki, a television cameraman, he stated,
while wiping away tears: "I realize now that the whole world, without exception, is responsible for this tragedy. I have covered
a great many events and tragedies around the world, but the scenes I have witnessed in the Jenin camp are the most violent and
the ones that have touched me the most. All of the victims were civilians. The bodies that were found under the rubble were
those of children, women and teenagers, and all were civilians. We discovered that some of them had not been fatally injured,
and that their deaths were attributable to the fact that they had been unable to receive treatment. This is why I say again that
a huge massacre was committed, and that any person who has a conscience anywhere in the world should work to bring an end to
this war, this destruction and this tragedy."


Chips, the United States volunteer

Chips, a United States Red Cross volunteer, was one of the first persons to go through the streets of the Jenin camp, to which
the medical units of humanitarian relief organizations had been denied access for two weeks. Although she had taken part in many
relief operations in a number of countries, Chips said that she was deeply shocked by what she had seen. She stated: "I shared
and experienced with the Palestinians moments of pain and suffering as they tried for several days to enter the camp. But the
Israeli army prevented them from doing so. In spite of the hundreds of calls for help from children and women and from the camp
population in general, none of us was in a position to play our role and come to the aid of anyone. The tanks were everywhere
and were even firing on the ambulances, backed up by snipers who were occupying a number of buildings. ... The Red Cross did
what it could and set up countless contacts so that the Red Cross staff and ambulances, which display the organization's logo,
could be permitted to bring relief to the injured and remove the bodies of the martyrs, but in vain. The Israeli army prevented
us from moving, which is both horrible and contrary to international law." Describing the situation in the camp as catastrophic
and tragic, Chips added: "When the Israeli army authorized us to enter the camp, it was too late. As soon as we set foot on the
ground, we smelt the odour of death and of the corpses that the army had left in the streets and alleys and under the rubble.
.... I have been to several regions of the world and have seen destruction of various kinds, but the scenes in the Jenin camp
were different, terrible and tragic. We retrieved charred corpses and others that were rotting, and they all belonged to
civilians, including women, children and elderly persons. Some bodies were buried under the rubble of houses destroyed by the
army. It was a real massacre and the scenes were terrible.