Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:35:15 -0500, flipper wrote:


On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:52:28 +0100, richard
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:45:28 +0100, richard
wrote:



flipper wrote:


On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:07:58 +0100, richard
wrote:




flipper wrote:



On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:58:49 +0100, richard
wrote:





flipper wrote:




On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:13:12 +0100, richard
wrote:






flipper wrote:





On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:47:40 +0100, richard
wrote:






- facilitating the 100:1 ratio of deaths in the assault on Gaza


In combat the object is to kill the active enemy, not to exchange
deaths of your own one to one for the other, and the ideal combat
ratio would be "all:0." 100:1, while good, is short of the ideal.







- and ask yourself if perhaps you are not complicit to
murder ?


No more than Roosevelt was 'complicit to murder' Nazis during WWII.


You argue with words


Of course I argue with words. What are you using? chewing gum?






and think yourself so clever but your thoughts are fossilised


If "clever" it comes from bothering to acquire more than a passing
acquaintance with the facts and that's what irritates you. Reality
doesn't conform to the sloganeering propaganda you've been fed.






and you lack any shred of humanity.


Just what makes supporting the creation of a Palestinian State, like
the U.S. has for 60 years, 'inhumane'? And while I'm at it, what makes
you think that mindlessly bashing the U.S., Israel, and inflaming a 90
year long conflict into an even longer one makes you 'humane'?

Speaking of words, "humanity" encompasses all races and not just one
who's 'leadership' has sworn to destroy another.

If the Palestinians would work on actually creating a State, instead
of incessant militant attacks on Israel that inevitably require a
military response, they'd HAVE one and the main reason they don't is
they're used as political pawns by extremist elements to, as has been
the goal from the beginning, wipe the place clean of 'Jews'.






It's a waste of time talking to you as you are blind to the injustice being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the
Israeli state and their sponsors or stupid or most probably a nasty piece of work happy that this injustice should go ahead.


What are you calling 'unjust' about land for peace? The "peace" part,
I suppose.

You talk like a fanatic, ignoring facts while speaking of your
'martyrs' and 'evil Jews', and would fit perfectly in a 1930's Nazi
propaganda radio broadcast but that kind of fanaticism is why a
solution eluded the British and every President from Truman on for 90
years.

As such, you're doing no one any favors unless your goal is to
perpetuate suffering another 90 years, or start a genocidal war, and
in that light you have the gall to invoke the name of 'humanity' and
'justice'

Mark my words, if terrorists start lobbing the recently mentioned
SCUDs on Israel there'll be more suffering so all due congratulations
on your, and Obama's pompous, 'progress' in inflaming a situation that
history shows needed none. Nothing like '**** on you' diplomacy to
bring people together, especially when you do it in public, and,
speaking of which, Obama's fondness for '**** on us, **** on our
allies' diplomacy isn't any better.

You're right about one thing, though. It is a waste of time trying to
convince me that exterminating Israel, or any race for that matter, is
'humane' and 'justice'.

As for myself, I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes for both
Israel and the Palestinian people but neither for terrorists and
tyrants.

With the exception of your last sentence all is idiocy.


Perfect example of turnspeak.




You attribute statements to me that I have never made.


Piffle





The policy of the Israelis is to take all the land and resources for themselves


The FACTS prove that a falsehood and propagating falsehoods does
nothing but make the matter worse.


The "facts" prove no such thing.


They most certainly do.



- so it is no wonder that there is opposition

from Palestinians. There is no intention whatsoever to exchange land for peace.

Proof: Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt.


I said "is" not "was".


That's a farcical slight of hand. The only means to show intent is by
declaration and past behavior, both of which you summarily discard and
substitute your own manufactured bigotry and hatred for




As for the disputed territories, while both Egypt and Jordan illegally
annexed portions of the mandate after the 1948 war Israel did not
after the 1967 war.

"No intention?" A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza
Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994
Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.

Under the auspices of 'lunatic' Bush, in 2003, the Israeli government
issued a plan for total withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the
northern West Bank by late 2005. This became known as the
Disengagement Plan. In August 2005, the Israel Defense Forces and
Israeli police forcibly removed all settlers from the Gaza Strip.
Israel completed the disengagement on September 12, 2005.

The Gaza strip was too troublesome for the Israelis to hold onto.


It's more 'trouble' now than then. Which is not much of an incentive
to make further concessions.




It is rank lying ass propaganda to proclaim "there is no intention
whatsoever to exchange land for peace" when they've fraking DONE it,
and more than once.


Again I refer you to the meaning of the word "is".


I refer you to the farce of your 'referral'.




Israel wants land and is happy to prolong the
conflict and all the while take what it can. There is no doubt that the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are second class
citizens in every way.


Take it up with the local governing authority: Hamas and Fatah.

As for "occupied," despite propaganda the term has no basis in
international law or history in relation to Israel's control of the
disputed areas as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no
operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June
1967. I.E. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war

from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a

legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or
East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.

That's just casuistic nonsense.


It's a fact but, then, facts don't mean anything to fanatics. It's not
what you want so pooh.




Further, the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West
Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to
"cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by
another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have
never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.

Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they
certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental
powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo
Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying
Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power
exercises the functions of government in such territory..."




The state of Israel should indeed be "wiped from the map"


It's about time you admitted your intent. It makes for such a cordial
negotiating position: "hi, we'd like to wipe your country off the
map."

That is, of course, why you tried to hide it.




however that does not imply any harm to the Jewish people.


LOL


Laugh you may but


Oh I'm not laughing at the consequences that would befall citizens of
Israel as you 'wiped from the map' their country. I'm laughing at you
being stupid enough to make the claim.




Israel is a parasite on the American people and its actions inimical to American interests.


Sieg Heil


Israel is the new Nazi state - bent on subjugating the Palestinians, denying them access to water, evicting them from their
homes and taking their land.


More turnspeak. The one who insists the other should be wiped off the
map accuses *them* of being what they, themselves, are. Just like the
Grand Mufti, who allied with Hitler, recruited Arabs for the
Arabisches Freiheitkorps, and then accused 'the jews' of being NAZI
sympathizers.




I refer you to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157108.html where U.S. General David Petraeus said that the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict was fomenting anti-American sentiment due to the perception of U.S. favoritism towards Israel.


That's one reason the surrounding countries perpetuate the problem:
it's a lovely propaganda tool.

There was no 'Palestinian problem' when the Arab League attacked in
1948, there were no 'occupied territories' when the PLO formed in 1964
nor when the Arab countries decided to try again in 1967.




When you have a government that believes that the Jews are the "chosen people" and have a right to the holy land you have a
recipe for conflict.


Got a real problem with 'Jews', don't ya?

I've not got a problem, it is your problem to justify their immoral actions - it is you that is on the defensive.


No problem, just need to wipe them off the map

You would be hilarious if it weren't so serious.




I see your problem. Imagine them wanting to live in and around the
city of Jerusalem they built, historical capital and most holy city,
as if they couldn't just go to one of their many other countries. Not
like the Arabs who're stuck with only that one little patch of ground.
Well, besides the rest of the Middle East.

And it's a good thing Islamic terrorist groups have no 'holy dogma',
eh? I mean, other than believing the entire world, having been created
by Allah, should be dictatorially governed by their interpretation of
Islamic law.

Israel and Al Queda deserve each other.
Religious fruitcases both.


As I said from the beginning, you do no one any favors in
demonstrating your blind bigotry and how utterly impossible it is to
reason with the likes of you.

The only thing missing is the rabid froth around your mouth.



Tis a real conundrum how the conflict has lasted this long with Israel
being so 'unreasonable' about slitting it's own throat, especially
with you and terrorists hurling all that love, peace, and 'humanity'
their way.





The sad thing is that US politicians are "bought" by Isreali interests and are promoting this injustice.


No, they're 'bought' by the military-industrial complex, No, wait,
they're 'bought' by the drug companies. No, wait, they're 'bought' by
big oil. No, wait, they're 'bought' by the insurance companies. No,
wait, they're 'bought' by wall street. No, wait...

The first pathetic excuse everyone uses is "they're bought by insert
argument of convenience boogie man"

They're bought by money which each of the above examples supplies - including Isreali interests.


It is patently absurd to imagine all those competing interests somehow
magically coincide in your grand conspiracy.




Get a clue. The reason is they've traditionally not been so stupid as
you to make the patently absurd claim that wiping Israel off the map
is 'humane' and "does not imply any harm to the Jewish people."

That, my understanding, is Iran's position. See it from their point of view - a new aggressive people have placed themselves in

their midst and have been taken the land from around them by force.


Iran is not an Arab country, you bigoted twit, and they don't border
on Israel nor do they even border on the border countries.

Don't let that slow you down, though. Whip out a Nazi broadcast on the
'international conspiracy of jews'.



“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee
of its Arab population.” - Ben Gurion.


That widely circulated, supposed, 'quote' is a fabrication allegedly
from The Koenig Memorandum except neither that quote nor the name Ben
Gurion appear anywhere in it.

Of course, that it's a fabrication won't matter one whit to a flaming,
hate consumed, bigot like you any more than it did to the flaming,
hate consumed, bigots that fabricated it.

Let's hope no one in Israel reads this group because if I were them
I'd be calling up the reserves and forming a defense perimeter at the
mere suggestion you might be on the way to 'negotiate'.


Before I start let's get a few things straight. I never claimed every
Jewish person that ever lived was flawless and filled with nothing but
the milk of human kindness. Shortcoming befall all persons, races,
faiths, and governments.

But I don't demonize the entire 'white race', or 'Christians', or 'the
Tea Party', or whatever the currently favored bigotry is, because
Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building nor do I blame all Islam,
or all Palestinians, or all Arabs because of terrorists, a distinction
I have always made. Nor have I suggested, like you, they 'deserve each
other'.

What I said was your anti-Semitic bigotry does no favors for the
people you claim to care about because it stokes perpetual hated and
virtually guarantees war.


It is pretty much a waste of time talking to you since it would seem that you deny the evidence that is plain for everyone else
to see:-
The seige of Gaza. The attacks on civilians in Gaza, the eviction of Palestinians from their homes. The "targeted
assassinations", the forgery of passports of friendly countries for the purposes of murder. The use of phosphorus munitions on
civilians. The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. The theft of land - and so on.

It's a "waste of time" for you because I don't restrict my readings to
only self serving commentaries by flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists, nor am I simple minded enough to imagine one can
indiscriminately lob missiles on civilian populations and then scream
'foul' when they fight back.

That doesn't mean I expect everyone has been 'flawless' but if you
engage in war then you get a war along the attendant consequences,
flaws and all.

Here's a little tip. If you care about civilian casualties then, for
starters, don't put your fracking missile launchers in schools and
hospitals.


I suggest that you make your way over to http://mondediplo.com/maps/ and look at the maps of the middle east and watch the
annexation of land from the Palestinians as a function of time. As a sampler, look at
http://mondediplo.com/maps/palestinianterritory200002 to see a snapshot taken in 2001 of the extent of the takeover of
Palestinian lands.

OMG, there be jews here. And after flaming, hate filled, bigots and
terrorists thought they'd come so close to "the final solution."

No one 'hates' Jews, right? Just don't want any of 'their kind' within
a thousand miles of the 'ought to be' purged and 'clean' lands.

Here's a thought. How about "No problem. We'll be glad to have those
settlements in our new Arab Palestinian State with full citizenship
just like everyone else. Of course, if they would prefer to relocate
then we will not object, nor encourage them to do so."

Btw, "The land designated for the future Palestinian state" by WHO?
Certainly not the 1948 Arab 'leadership' that summarily rejected the
U.N. partition plan. And certainly not the 1948 Arab countries that
invaded and annexed the area, to hell with what you please to call a
'Palestinian State', claiming the, so called, 'border' that map shows
for "Israel" does not exist and there are no 'borders' at all. And
certainly not the 1967 Arab states that again invaded but lost their
previously invaded territory, again insisting there are no 'borders'.

(See below for what was "designated.")

The map also fails to explain that Israel REMOVED their Gaza
settlements. And that's before we even get into those maps being
derived from the "Palestinian delegation" who, arguably, don't have an
exactly 'unbiased' opinion on the matter.

The fact remains there never was, never ever, a 'Palestinian state',
nor any 'agreement' to a 'Palestinian state', from which to make those
kind of claims. And the lack of 'agreement' is particularly
interesting as it is the 'Arab leadership' that has steadfastly
refused each and every attempt at one going back to the very first
offer after the Ottoman Empire broke apart.


Sometimes life is strange. I was talking to my mother who was brought up in Egypt during WW2. We had never talked about Israel
before - but it seemed topical. She related a wartime (postwar ?) event - a school friend of hers was in a club frequented by
British people (she went to an English school in Alexandria) which was bombed by Jewish terrorists.

Anecdotal stories don't mean much and especially not when the
'anecdote' doesn't even know what was what but if I had to guess I'd
imagine she's referring to the King David Hotel bombing as the
columns, hence the bomb, were located in the basement Regence night
club. It fits the time period and what little of the anecdote there
is.

The King David Hotel had been commandeered by the British for the
central offices of the British Mandatory, headquarters of the British
Forces, and military communications center, exclusively occupying more
than 2/3's of the hotel. This was originally to have been temporary
but, well, WWII and all, they just never got around to building
anything else..

The point is that, during hostilities, it is not unreasonable to see
it as a military target.

The incident revolved around what the British military dubbed
Operation Agatha, known within Israel then and now as "Black
Saturday". British troops broke into and searched the Jewish Agency,
confiscating large quantities of documents which were then taken to
and secured at their headquarters in, surprise, the King David Hotel.

The point here is that the purpose of the bombing was not to 'kill
people' but to destroy illegally seized (at least by their viewpoint)
documents being held at a military installation: the previously
commandeered King David Hotel.

Roughly 25-27 minutes before the blast the Irgun telephoned the King
David Hotel warning them of the impending explosion and to evacuate.
They also called the adjacent French Consulate telling them to open
their windows to prevent glass breakage from injuring the occupants.
They also called the Palestine Post newspaper who they knew would, and
did, also call the King David Hotel, and the police. (it's worth
noting that during the planting of the bomb itself, Arab workers in
the kitchen were warned to flee [which they did])

The French Consulate heeded the warning, opened their widows, and
closed curtains. The British at the King David Hotel ignored the
first, direct, call but finally took some heed of the Palestine Post
call, resulting in the discovery of 'milk churns' (ostensibly used to
carry in the explosives) in the basement, but did no evacuation.

91 people were killed with 5 being members of the public.

One can debate lots of things, like whether the British raid was
'legal' or 'justified', when, if ever, 'rebellion' against a
(supposed) 'legal authority' is justified, what constitutes a 'legal
authority', whether the bombing was the 'best response', and so on,
but I'm not making an argument for either or any. One thing that IS
certain, though: the King David Hotel bombing does not fit the profile
of your typical terrorist "let's kill people for the sake of killing
people' strategy and to put it in that category is "our side is good,
their side is evil" demagoguery.


It seems that the
terrorists did not like the fact that the British were impeding Jews from emigrating into Palestine.

Imagine that. Their race is being systematically exterminated by the
millions upon millions and the British, to whom they remained loyal
during the war, refuses to grant safe harbor in their ancestral
homeland, without which (a confirmed 'place to go') they cannot leave
the countries exterminating them. What's not to like?

Btw, Article 6. of the League of Nations British Mandate states

"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and
position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall
facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall
encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency. referred to in
Article 4, close settlement by Jews, on the land, including State
lands and waste lands not required for public purposes."

The "White Paper" was arguably in violation of the Mandate.

As for a 'country', Article 2 of the Mandate states

"The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such
political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the
establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the
preamble, and the development of self -governing institutions, and
also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the
inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

The name "Palestine," as defined by the Mandate (it has no meaning
prior as the Ottoman Empire made no such distinction), consisted of
the entire region encompassing what, today, we call Israel, the (so
called) disputed territories, and Jordan (originally Transjordan).
Everyone in that region were "Palestinians' of the newly minted
"Palestine."

It is easily arguable that, if you're going to divvy it up because the
British concluded these yahoos can't get along in one state, Jordan
represents (and 'is') the 'Arab Palestinian state' of the Palestine
Mandate and that what's being disputed now is how much of the mandated
"Jewish national home" will be left. With, of course, your stated
position being "wipe them off the map."

Now, I'm not saying that's the only interpretation, just that it's not
so blooming simple and 'obvious', except to flaming anti-Semitic "wipe
them off the map" bigots.


So, no matter whether the
Ben Gurion quotation is a fabrication or not, the reality is that that is what has been happening - and continues to happen to
this day.

I said it being a fabrication wouldn't matter one whit to you. That's
the great thing about being a flaming, hate filled, bigot: nothing
matters but the bigotry and there's, unfortunately, plenty of other
flaming, hate filled, bigots to share new exciting fabrications with.


I suggest therefore that you educate yourself to what is actually happening before you accuse me of blind bigotry.

Bigots always want people 'educated' to their bigotry.

You are a 'bigot' because your 'solutions' always involve wiping
'their kind' off the map for the benefit of your 'favored kind'.

You are a 'blind bigot' because you blindly accept any and all
demonizations of your hated target, ascribing said demonizations to
each and every member, while blindly ignoring or dismissing any and
all evidence or arguments to the contrary.

Hitler did exactly the same thing and the German people had, at least,
the insufficient excuse they were not allowed to even hear an
alternate view. What's your excuse?



Mullens is such an established bigot, and anti-Semite... he's been in
my kill-file for years.

...Jim Thompson

A clearer example of the "pot calling the kettle black" is harder to imagine.
Nobody gives a **** about your kill file. You are perfectly entitled to wear blinkers should this be your desire.