[Paul G[_2_]]

My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Thanks Paul

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).


The neon on just about any switch I have seen is actually completely
separate and juts 'happens to be' wired to the swich, but its easy
enough to disconnect it.

You are correct that you need to know what the voltage at the light is
which is not something you can sense from one side of a two way switch.

And that will require a separate lead from the switch, or some way of
sensing current being drawn (complicated)

And for that reason its not that common to find a changeover switch with
a neon..In fact I cant recall having seen one.

A different option might be to place a DP isolator with neon in the
house that controls the lighting in toto. Then if that is off, the
garage will always be off.

I have such in my spare bedroom/workshop to control all the power points
on the bench, so that I don't need to remember what I left plugged in
and switched on.

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Seriously the best option I can think of is to get a separate neon
indicator of a nice size and shape and butcher a cheap faceplate to take it


This is actually the only example I can find outsode of RS components of
what used to be so common we even had a punch tool made for it..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NE13-230V-...em20c4 f1c020

Needless to say junk yards and indeed old isolation switches are full of
equipment with these in them....


Thanks Paul



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
Paul G writes:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

You can make one up using MK Gridswitch (or other manufacturers'
equivalent products).

Yes, you will need a new cable, at least a neutral, and possibly a
live if the circuit arrangement is such that the house switch isn't
logically the last one directly feeding the light.

Alternatively, forget the manual switches, and use an occupancy
detector to switch the garage light. That's how mine works.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Slightly against regs, but a neon or LED (with suitable dropper and diode)
can be fitted to the switch plate and get its return from earth.

If you don't want to fit a neon to the plate, you'll be into using a grid
switch system to get the two way, intermediate, and neon. But at least you
won't have to run in new cabling.

--
*I don't work here. I'm a consultant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[NT[_2_]]

On Aug 25, 12:11*pm, Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Thanks Paul

The description is about as clear as mud, so I can't comment on the
wiring.

There are a few options for a separately wired neon:
- mount a neon in a standard switch faceplate
- use a light up spacer behind ditto
- use a screwed together neon FCU, bring the neon connections out
separately


NT

[Martin Brown]

On 25/08/2012 13:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Slightly against regs, but a neon or LED (with suitable dropper and diode)
can be fitted to the switch plate and get its return from earth.

Also against regs and dissipating at least a watt when the main lamp is
on would be a dropper resistor of about 5.6R in the common line with an
LED and a reverse diode each protected by a 1k resistor. 100W bulb will
draw a shade 1/2A so 5.6R gives about 2.8 v enough to light a red LED.
You may have to adjust values and allow a large power disippation safety
margin depending on the actual lighting used.

There may be more elegant code compliant ways to monitor mains current
flow with active is on based on a reed relay surrounded by a solenoid
and bridge rectifier. Never seen one though.

I have a similar problem with a neon for a manual switch for a CH pump
where I have settled for an anti-sense neon circuit. The neon is lit
when the switch is open and the load is not being driven.

If you don't want to fit a neon to the plate, you'll be into using a grid
switch system to get the two way, intermediate, and neon. But at least you
won't have to run in new cabling.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Bob Minchin[_4_]]

Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Thanks Paul

Find a miniature mains transformer - secondary voltage irrelevant. Wind
a turn or so of insulated wire through the odd gaps in the core and use
this as a current transformer with a neon across the 240v winding.
You might have to play with the number of turns but the neon will strike
when the lighting circuit draws current.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
Bob Minchin writes:
Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Thanks Paul

Find a miniature mains transformer - secondary voltage irrelevant. Wind
a turn or so of insulated wire through the odd gaps in the core and use
this as a current transformer with a neon across the 240v winding.
You might have to play with the number of turns but the neon will strike
when the lighting circuit draws current.

If you're going to play with current transformers, bare in mind
that if you leave the windings open-circuit so no current can
flow, the voltage output will go very high. You may break down
the insulation, and/or give yourself a belt. Not sure how a
neon as the burden (current transformer load) would cope with
a filament lamp switch-on surge or a short circuit, but I
wouldn't be surprised if it blew up.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[NT[_2_]]

On Aug 25, 1:44*pm, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 25/08/2012 13:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



In article ,
* * Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Slightly against regs, but a neon or LED (with suitable dropper and diode)
can be fitted to the switch plate and get its return from earth.

Also against regs and dissipating at least a watt when the main lamp is
on would be a dropper resistor of about 5.6R in the common line with an
LED and a reverse diode each protected by a 1k resistor. 100W bulb will
draw a shade 1/2A so 5.6R gives about 2.8 v enough to light a red LED.
You may have to adjust values and allow a large power disippation safety
margin depending on the actual lighting used.

There may be more elegant code compliant ways to monitor mains current
flow with active is on based on a reed relay surrounded by a solenoid
and bridge rectifier. Never seen one though.

I have a similar problem with a neon for a manual switch for a CH pump
where I have settled for an anti-sense neon circuit. The neon is lit
when the switch is open and the load is not being driven.

If you don't want to fit a neon to the plate, you'll be into using a grid
switch system to get the two way, intermediate, and neon. But at least you
won't have to run in new cabling.

a filament lamp consumes about 8x run current during starting, so
you'd need a more complex circuit to avoid frying the led. bridge
rectifier, zener, resistor, led.


NT

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Bob Minchin wrote:
Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Thanks Paul

Find a miniature mains transformer - secondary voltage irrelevant. Wind
a turn or so of insulated wire through the odd gaps in the core and use
this as a current transformer with a neon across the 240v winding.
You might have to play with the number of turns but the neon will strike
when the lighting circuit draws current.


I'll tip my hat to a solution that I
(a) hadn't thought of and
(b) seems an entirely simple and elegant way of doing it!

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Andy Wade]

On 25/08/2012 12:11, Paul G wrote:
[...]
I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Possible alternative non-electrical solution - if it can be done in a
visually acceptable fashion: drill through the dividing wall and insert
a perspex rod (light pipe), preferably coloured.

--
Andy

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:12:44 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

a filament lamp consumes about 8x run current during starting, so
you'd need a more complex circuit to avoid frying the led. bridge
rectifier, zener, resistor, led.

True enough but not for very long and LEDs can take a hefty overload for
short periods. Might get away with it, or not... B-)

If you are going to stick something in series back to back 5W zeners of
suitable voltage (both) would probably be better, no risk of a larger
than expected current draw frying the LED. I don't like the power
dissipation in either the series R or back to back zeners.

We don't know te topology of the wiring which switch of the three is the
intermediate, which is the live end and which is the load end of the two
way circuit.

A small mains transformer (recovered from an old wallwart?) wired across
the light with a bit of bell wire (as it's LV and isolated) to a convient
indicator. I know breaks the don't want to run a wire part of the spec.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Bob Minchin[_4_]]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bob Minchin writes:
Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Thanks Paul

Find a miniature mains transformer - secondary voltage irrelevant. Wind
a turn or so of insulated wire through the odd gaps in the core and use
this as a current transformer with a neon across the 240v winding.
You might have to play with the number of turns but the neon will strike
when the lighting circuit draws current.

If you're going to play with current transformers, bare in mind
that if you leave the windings open-circuit so no current can
flow, the voltage output will go very high. You may break down
the insulation, and/or give yourself a belt. Not sure how a
neon as the burden (current transformer load) would cope with
a filament lamp switch-on surge or a short circuit, but I
wouldn't be surprised if it blew up.

You will find that in practise, the core saturates and the voltage on
the secondary limits as a result. In any case as the neon strikes around
100v or so, the voltages are enough for a tickle but the OP is playing
with mains anyway.

[Bob Minchin[_4_]]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:
Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Thanks Paul

Find a miniature mains transformer - secondary voltage irrelevant.
Wind a turn or so of insulated wire through the odd gaps in the core
and use this as a current transformer with a neon across the 240v
winding.
You might have to play with the number of turns but the neon will
strike when the lighting circuit draws current.


I'll tip my hat to a solution that I
(a) hadn't thought of and
(b) seems an entirely simple and elegant way of doing it!

Thanks!

It is a useful technique for indicating that high currents are flowing
too, whilst only loosing a small amount of power.
I use a similar set up to switch on my workshop dust collector when any
of my multi-horsepower woodwork machines are switched on.

The transformer can be swapped for the coil of a sensitive ac relay. A
few thick turns round the solenoid and the relay closes when current flows.

Bob

[Richard Russell]

On Aug 25, 12:11*pm, Paul G wrote:
I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Referring to the Wikipedia article, if you wire your 3-way switching
using what they call the 'alternative' system it should make it easier
to achieve. Indeed it specifically states "an optional additional
lamp can be connected at Terminal A as a pilot lamp" and "it has the
advantage of allowing loads at both ends of the switched circuit to be
controlled from either end":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwa...rnative_system

Richard
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 14:55:37 -0700 (PDT), Richard Russell wrote:

Referring to the Wikipedia article, if you wire your 3-way switching
using what they call the 'alternative' system it should make it easier
to achieve. Indeed it specifically states "an optional additional
lamp can be connected at Terminal A as a pilot lamp" and "it has the
advantage of allowing loads at both ends of the switched circuit to be
controlled from either end":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwa...rnative_system

Insteresting but that only works with 2 switches. The OP has 3, hence "3
way"... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
,
Richard Russell wrote:
On Aug 25, 12:11 pm, Paul G wrote:
I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Referring to the Wikipedia article, if you wire your 3-way switching
using what they call the 'alternative' system it should make it easier
to achieve. Indeed it specifically states "an optional additional
lamp can be connected at Terminal A as a pilot lamp" and "it has the
advantage of allowing loads at both ends of the switched circuit to be
controlled from either end":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwa...rnative_system

Richard
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

This is the obvious way to wire up multi way switching since it is an
extension of a one way.




L1 L1
0===========0 0===========0============= Line
| \ / |
C 0================================O C
\ / \ /
0===========0 0===========0============= Switch return
L2 Optional L2
Intermediate

--
*Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Richard Russell]

On Aug 25, 11:30*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Insteresting but that only works with 2 switches. The OP has 3, hence "3
way"... *B-)

It can easily be extended to 3 (or more) switches:

http://www.rtr.myzen.co.uk/neon.gif

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

[NT[_2_]]

On Aug 25, 9:58*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:12:44 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:
a filament lamp consumes about 8x run current during starting, so
you'd need a more complex circuit to avoid frying the led. bridge
rectifier, zener, resistor, led.

True enough but not for very long and LEDs can take a hefty overload for
short periods. Might get away with it, or not... *B-)

I guess if youre willing to take a gamble. Better to have something
that will last though, I'm pretty fed up with maintenance.


If you are going to stick something in series back to back 5W zeners of
suitable voltage (both) would probably be better, no risk of a larger
than expected current draw frying the LED. I don't like the power
dissipation in either the series R or back to back zeners.

We don't know te topology of the wiring which switch of the three is the
intermediate, which is the live end and which is the load end of the two
way circuit.

A small mains transformer (recovered from an old wallwart?) wired across
the light with a bit of bell wire (as it's LV and isolated) to a convient
indicator. I know breaks the don't want to run a wire part of the spec.

Perhaps the path could just be optical. So far I've little idea of the
layout, physically or electrically


NT

[Andy Burns[_7_]]

Richard Russell wrote:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

Insteresting but that only works with 2 switches. The OP has 3, hence "3
way"... B-)

It can easily be extended to 3 (or more) switches:

http://www.rtr.myzen.co.uk/neon.gif

Provided the intermediate [switch is|switches are] between the lamp and
the right hand switch?

[Richard Russell]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:41:52 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

http://www.rtr.myzen.co.uk/neon.gif

Provided the intermediate [switch is|switches are] between the lamp and
the right hand switch?

That's right. It's possible the OP may need to swap a 2-way switch with
an intermediate switch to achieve the correct arrangement.

The more general topology of the N-way 'alternative' method is
(simplified):

2-way switch
Any number of intermediate switches
Load(s)
Neon(s)
Any number of intermediate switches
2-way switch

So for example it's possible to have more than one switch in the house as
well as more than one in the garage, with loads in both places, without
any extra wiring. It's just a case of ensuring that the leg to which the
load(s) and any monitoring neons are connected is the leg which joins the
house to the garage.

I've never understood why this 'alternative' method isn't more popular.
The Wikipedia article says it "can cause confusion" but, come on, it's
only wires and switches - you don't need a PhD to understand it!

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

[Andy Burns[_7_]]

Richard Russell wrote:

I've never understood why this 'alternative' method isn't more popular.
The Wikipedia article says it "can cause confusion" but, come on, it's
only wires and switches - you don't need a PhD to understand it!

What about the 'carter' method?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiway_switching#Carter_system

I can see it's more dangerous where ES lamp-holders are prevalent, but
is it outlawed or frowned-on over here with BC lamp-holders? Not many
people would be expecting both prongs to be live when it was switched
off ...

[Richard Russell]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:48:05 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

What about the 'carter' method?
I can see it's more dangerous where ES lamp-holders are prevalent

It also has rather unfortunate consequences if the switches are
make-before-break!

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

[The Medway Handyman]

On 25/08/2012 12:11, Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)

Drill a hole in the door & insert a door viewer.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:09:39 -0700 (PDT), Richard Russell wrote:

Insteresting but that only works with 2 switches. The OP has 3, hence
"3 way"... *B-)

It can easily be extended to 3 (or more) switches:

http://www.rtr.myzen.co.uk/neon.gif

As shown that lamp should be on. B-) IM switch in "swap" rather than
"across" connection mode.

It was late last night and I was tired. B-)

Doesn't work if you connect the load to the RH switches L1 or L2 which is
what I had last night by simply inserting an IM switch between the change
overs.

With three switches the load has to be on the other side of the "supply"
change over switch. With four or more switches the load can be any where
except on the last change over switch. I think...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Richard Russell]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:24:02 +0100, Dave Liquorice
wrote:

With three switches the load has to be on the other side of the "supply"
change over switch. With four or more switches the load can be any where
except on the last change over switch. I think...

In the general case there is a 2-way switch at each end with any number of
intermediate switches in between. You can connect the load(s) and supply
to any leg, including the end ones (my drawing shows the load and supply
connected at the left-hand end). But the load must be connected to the
same leg as the supply!

One way to think about it is that a changeover switch plus any number of
intermediate switches is equivalent to a single changeover switch. This
allows you to expand the basic topology as shown on Wikipedia by adding
intermediate switches at either end:

Changeover switch (plus any number of intermediate switches)
load(s) + supply
Changeover switch (plus any number of intermediate switches)

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

[Andy Wade]

On 26/08/2012 10:53, Richard Russell wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:48:05 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

What about the 'carter' method?
I can see it's more dangerous where ES lamp-holders are prevalent

It also has rather unfortunate consequences if the switches are
make-before-break!

Even with break-before-make there is the distinct possibility of an arc
propagating and causing the same consequences - especially if the load
is inductively-ballasted discharge lighting.

--
Andy

[Andy Wade]

On 26/08/2012 10:40, Richard Russell wrote:

I've never understood why this 'alternative' method isn't more popular.
The Wikipedia article says it "can cause confusion" but, come on, it's
only wires and switches - you don't need a PhD to understand it!

For UK wiring in twin- and triple-&-earth cable the alternative method
(as it used to be called) *is* standard. A 'switch-drop' T&E cable from
a ceiling rose or luminaire goes to one 2-way switch. From that switch
you run 3&E cable via zero or more intermediate switches to a second
2-way switch.

The other method (formerly called standard) is appropriate when wiring
with singles in conduit.

--
Andy (PhD failed, didn't write up...)

[Richard Russell]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:18:23 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote:

For UK wiring in twin- and triple-&-earth cable the alternative method
(as it used to be called) *is* standard. A 'switch-drop' T&E cable from
a ceiling rose or luminaire goes to one 2-way switch.

It's probably worth noting that the 'switch drop' doesn't have to go to
one of the 2-way switches, it can equally well go to any of the
intermediate legs (i.e. between two intermediate switches). This gives a
lot of flexibility and can reduce wiring lengths.

If as you say this method is now standard perhaps it's how the OP's setup
is wired, in which case the most he might have to change to fit his neon
is to ensure that the 'switch drop' connects to the leg which runs from
the house to the garage.

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

[Harry Bloomfield[_3_]]

Bob Minchin formulated on Saturday :
Find a miniature mains transformer - secondary voltage irrelevant. Wind a
turn or so of insulated wire through the odd gaps in the core and use this as
a current transformer with a neon across the 240v winding.
You might have to play with the number of turns but the neon will strike when
the lighting circuit draws current.

I have a similar arrangement in place, for PIR controlled lighting,
except instead of wiring a neon across the output I used a piezo
sounder. The output of the transformer just generates a few volts, only
enough for the sounder, so perfectly safe and the noise is difficult to
miss.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[Newshound]

On 25/08/2012 21:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:


Find a miniature mains transformer - secondary voltage irrelevant.
Wind a turn or so of insulated wire through the odd gaps in the core
and use this as a current transformer with a neon across the 240v
winding.
You might have to play with the number of turns but the neon will
strike when the lighting circuit draws current.


I'll tip my hat to a solution that I
(a) hadn't thought of and
(b) seems an entirely simple and elegant way of doing it!

+1 !

--
For every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, neat,
and wrong.
H L Menken

[Harry Bloomfield[_3_]]

Richard Russell was thinking very hard :
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:41:52 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

http://www.rtr.myzen.co.uk/neon.gif

Provided the intermediate [switch is|switches are] between the lamp and the
right hand switch?

That's right. It's possible the OP may need to swap a 2-way switch with an
intermediate switch to achieve the correct arrangement.

The more general topology of the N-way 'alternative' method is (simplified):

2-way switch
Any number of intermediate switches
Load(s)
Neon(s)
Any number of intermediate switches
2-way switch

So for example it's possible to have more than one switch in the house as
well as more than one in the garage, with loads in both places, without any
extra wiring. It's just a case of ensuring that the leg to which the load(s)
and any monitoring neons are connected is the leg which joins the house to
the garage.

I've never understood why this 'alternative' method isn't more popular. The
Wikipedia article says it "can cause confusion" but, come on, it's only wires
and switches - you don't need a PhD to understand it!

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

Interesting and I will admit I have never come across that arrangement
before.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[Paul G[_2_]]

On 25/08/2012 12:11, Paul G wrote:
My garage is attached to the house with a 3-way lighting circuit.
Sometimes the family leave these lights on and this is only discovered
when someone goes outside and notices the fact. One of the light
switches is inside the house (next to an internal door into the garage)
while the remainder are at either ends of the garage. I'd like to add an
indicator to the indoor switch to show when the lights are on. Because
it's a 3-way circuit, I think I need a new cable from the lights to this
switch. It's a single gang box but I am struggling to find a switch with
neon indicator that is fed separately. I'm sure this is all achievable
using a modular faceplate but frankly I'm hoping to avoid the expense
(of modular).

I am hoping someone can confirm I need to add a new cable for this, and
suggestions for a switch+(separate) neon indicator faceplate ?

Thanks Paul


Thanks for the suggestions & comments. The switch in the house is an
intermediate but nearby (inside the garage) is the switch with live &
switched live. So I've been able to lay another cable from this garage
switch to the switch in the house, with a view to using an MK K3041 Neon
Switch Locator, or MK Gridswitch with an neon indicator. Am I correct in
thinking I need to use both wires of this new cable rather than just the
neutral ?

Thanks Paul

[Bill Wright[_2_]]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I've never understood why this 'alternative' method isn't more
popular. The Wikipedia article says it "can cause confusion" but,
come on, it's only wires and switches - you don't need a PhD to
understand it!

In my experience people with a PhD are no more likely to understand
electrical installation than anyone else.

Bill

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Bill Wright wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I've never understood why this 'alternative' method isn't more
popular. The Wikipedia article says it "can cause confusion" but,
come on, it's only wires and switches - you don't need a PhD to
understand it!

In my experience people with a PhD are no more likely to understand
electrical installation than anyone else.

Especially in anthropology

Bill


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Harry Bloomfield[_3_]]

Bill Wright presented the following explanation :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I've never understood why this 'alternative' method isn't more popular.
The Wikipedia article says it "can cause confusion" but, come on, it's
only wires and switches - you don't need a PhD to understand it!

In my experience people with a PhD are no more likely to understand
electrical installation than anyone else.

Bill

Those words you quoted were not written by me, they were written by
Richard Russell.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk