I have a 100+ year old Holland Hot Air Furnace that was originally
coal fired and convection based (10" diameter ducts). It's about 6
foot diameter and 5 foot high. Probably in the thirties it was
converted to gas with the addition of Janitrol controls (300,000 BTU)
in (I presume) the area where you'd normally load in the coal and
somewhere along the way it was converted to forced hot air with the
addition of a squirrel cage blower on the side.

The Janitrol controls stick out the front of the furnace and consist
of a pancake gas valve operated by a clockwork mechanism (it looks
like something out of a Victorian-age museum) which lifts a lever and
opens the valve. The clockwork mechanism is operated by a 24V small
motor which is powered via the limit control and the thermostat back
to a transformer on the wall. According to the plumber the controls
have a 24" blast tube (important!).

The motor which drives the clockwork mechanism has failed resulting in
the inability to open the gas valve and thus supply heat. So say both
myself and the plumber. He of course would like to sell me a new
furnace at about $6500 something that I'm resisting. I understand that
parts are no longer available for the 1930-ish Janitol controls
although I don't know why not. I can buy parts for a 1930's Packard
car--albeit paying an arm and a leg. Janitrol still exist but don't
even seem to have a website.

The next step down from replacement of the entire thing is to replace
the controls as a group (about $1400) but the problem here is the lack
of a 24 inch blast tube on the modern units according to the plumber.
Most current gas replacement controls use a 12 or so inch blast tube.
Apparently the 24 inch is not an exact measurement but could be 20, 22
etc. I presume the blast tube is some sort of pipe that goes from the
controls to the burner. If they don't make one why couldn't one be
fabricated from steel (titanium? copper? bronze?)? I don't think the
plumber is interested in following this option. How do I get someone
who is?

Back to the drawing board. Why can't I replace the 24 volt motor with
a generic one? How do I search (Google) for a supplier? What I'd
really like is someone who offers a service of "Send me your old one
and we'll send you a new one with the appropriate drive shaft". How
would I search for a supplier here?

Alternatively, just as there a people who rebuild generators on cars
aren't there places that rebuild either the motor or the clockwork
mechanism itself. I understand it might require fabrication of some
parts but I have no idea how to go about looking for these things.

Alternatively, I'm not sure I trust the plumber and his "No current
controls available with a 24 inch blast tube" If I google on "gas
furnace conversion controls" I end up with a whole lot of junk on
conversion from oil of LP gas. No one talks about coal and even if
it's the same for a oil conversion I can't find any specifications or
even see any actual units. Everyone just wants to sell me a whole
furnace sigh.

Any suggestions?

FeelFree

To say anything you want.

Save yourself a lot of trouble and money. Replace the whole thing. It
will soon pay for itself with lower fuel bills.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


wrote in message
...
I have a 100+ year old Holland Hot Air Furnace that was originally
coal fired and convection based (10" diameter ducts). It's about 6
foot diameter and 5 foot high. Probably in the thirties it was
....

wrote in message
...
I have a 100+ year old Holland Hot Air Furnace that was originally
coal fired and convection based (10" diameter ducts). It's about 6
foot diameter and 5 foot high. Probably in the thirties it was
converted to gas with the addition of Janitrol controls (300,000 BTU)


Umm...how large of an airplane hanger is this heating?


in (I presume) the area where you'd normally load in the coal and
somewhere along the way it was converted to forced hot air with the
addition of a squirrel cage blower on the side.

The Janitrol controls stick out the front of the furnace and consist
of a pancake gas valve operated by a clockwork mechanism (it looks
like something out of a Victorian-age museum) which lifts a lever and
opens the valve. The clockwork mechanism is operated by a 24V small
motor which is powered via the limit control and the thermostat back
to a transformer on the wall. According to the plumber the controls
have a 24" blast tube (important!).

The motor which drives the clockwork mechanism has failed resulting in
the inability to open the gas valve and thus supply heat. So say both
myself and the plumber. He of course would like to sell me a new
furnace at about $6500 something that I'm resisting. I understand that
parts are no longer available for the 1930-ish Janitol controls
although I don't know why not. I can buy parts for a 1930's Packard
car--albeit paying an arm and a leg. Janitrol still exist but don't
even seem to have a website.


Two things...plumbers are NOT Heating contractors...thats one...
And Janitrol has a website, but there is NO parts information, and I can
promise you, they no longer make parts for the part you are talking about.
Goodman, Janitrols parent, does not offer this part either...however, its
not the fact that it can not be converted over to newer parts..it can...its
about the fact that no one I know will touch it. I wont. I can see my
insurance company now if something were to go wrong..in anyway...


The next step down from replacement of the entire thing is to replace
the controls as a group (about $1400) but the problem here is the lack
of a 24 inch blast tube on the modern units according to the plumber.
Most current gas replacement controls use a 12 or so inch blast tube.
Apparently the 24 inch is not an exact measurement but could be 20, 22
etc. I presume the blast tube is some sort of pipe that goes from the
controls to the burner. If they don't make one why couldn't one be
fabricated from steel (titanium? copper? bronze?)? I don't think the
plumber is interested in following this option. How do I get someone
who is?

You wont if hes legit. If you do, be prepared to sign more disclaimers than
you have EVER seen.


Back to the drawing board. Why can't I replace the 24 volt motor with
a generic one? How do I search (Google) for a supplier? What I'd
really like is someone who offers a service of "Send me your old one
and we'll send you a new one with the appropriate drive shaft". How
would I search for a supplier here?

Forget it..this trade is not like that. Consider that part obsolete,
done....gone...nada...and move on.


Alternatively, just as there a people who rebuild generators on cars
aren't there places that rebuild either the motor or the clockwork
mechanism itself. I understand it might require fabrication of some
parts but I have no idea how to go about looking for these things.

Look..you wont find a reliable one..this is one case, where it IS a losing
battle.


Alternatively, I'm not sure I trust the plumber and his "No current
controls available with a 24 inch blast tube"


OK..then...in simplest terms...STOP.
If you dont trust him, WHY are you even considering using him?????

If I google on "gas
furnace conversion controls" I end up with a whole lot of junk on
conversion from oil of LP gas. No one talks about coal and even if
it's the same for a oil conversion I can't find any specifications or
even see any actual units. Everyone just wants to sell me a whole
furnace sigh.

Ok..look...I have 4 different catalogs, from 4 different supply companies.
NONE of them list a coal to gas conversion. Period.
Oil conversions are simple, and easy, and there is a good chance that is
what you have now...or one might work..but, not being able to see it not
being able to see what the units like...take measurements, and talk to the
guys that designed the conversion kit and explain whats going on...I have no
way of knowing.
I can tell you this...while you dont like the sound of it, a new
unit...well...its time..
Whatever you spend to replace that unit you have now will be well worth it.
I would not even fathom the idea of a repair on a unit like that, and yes, I
would tell the homeowner or business owner that there was no way in hell I
was going to put parts on it. The liability issues stink. For YOU and the
contractor.

Give ya a hint tho..I have put in furnaces for less than your guy wants to
throw control parts at it.

Good luck..


Any suggestions?

FeelFree

To say anything you want.

"b&k" wrote:

300,000 btu! wow. my (seemingly little) 76,000 btu furnace kind of keeps our
house warm. where do you live? what are your heating costs? a more modern
furnace may pay for itself in a few years.

About $1600 a year including stoves (2), water heaters (2), and other
gas-fired space heaters (4). It's those last space heaters that make
this not an urgent consideration; the main furnace is just being used
to keep the pipes from freezing.

Don't forget that the 300,000 was probably sized to run with a
convection system, not forced air, and that back in those days the
cost of keeping 4000 sq feet at maybe 75/78 degrees wasn't too much.

Back in the late 80's I calculated the payback period to be about 20
years. I doubt I'll be in the house 20 or even 10 years from now.



FeelFree

To say anything you want.

The motor which drives the clockwork mechanism has failed resulting in
the inability to open the gas valve and thus supply heat. So say both
myself and the plumber. He of course would like to sell me a new
furnace at about $6500 something that I'm resisting. I understand that
parts are no longer available for the 1930-ish Janitol controls
although I don't know why not. I can buy parts for a 1930's Packard
car--albeit paying an arm and a leg. Janitrol still exist but don't
even seem to have a website.

The next step down from replacement of the entire thing is to replace
the controls as a group (about $1400) but the problem here is the lack
of a 24 inch blast tube on the modern units according to the plumber.
Most current gas replacement controls use a 12 or so inch blast tube.
Apparently the 24 inch is not an exact measurement but could be 20, 22
etc. I presume the blast tube is some sort of pipe that goes from the
controls to the burner. If they don't make one why couldn't one be
fabricated from steel (titanium? copper? bronze?)? I don't think the
plumber is interested in following this option. How do I get someone
who is?


You would be crazy to stick another dime in that old hulk!!
Pry the money from your wallet and replace the beast! It died years ago, you
just don't realize it yet!
Greg

wrote in message
...
"b&k" wrote:

300,000 btu! wow. my (seemingly little) 76,000 btu furnace kind of keeps
our
house warm. where do you live? what are your heating costs? a more modern
furnace may pay for itself in a few years.

About $1600 a year including stoves (2), water heaters (2), and other
gas-fired space heaters (4). It's those last space heaters that make
this not an urgent consideration; the main furnace is just being used
to keep the pipes from freezing.

Don't forget that the 300,000 was probably sized to run with a
convection system, not forced air, and that back in those days the
cost of keeping 4000 sq feet at maybe 75/78 degrees wasn't too much.

Back in the late 80's I calculated the payback period to be about 20
years. I doubt I'll be in the house 20 or even 10 years from now.


Scary...what part of the country you in? I cant see that much being used in
fuel...sheesh..



FeelFree

To say anything you want.

"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

The motor which drives the clockwork mechanism has failed resulting in
the inability to open the gas valve and thus supply heat. So say both
myself and the plumber. He of course would like to sell me a new
furnace at about $6500 something that I'm resisting. I understand that
parts are no longer available for the 1930-ish Janitol controls
although I don't know why not. I can buy parts for a 1930's Packard
car--albeit paying an arm and a leg. Janitrol still exist but don't
even seem to have a website.

Two things...plumbers are NOT Heating contractors...thats one...

This one has "licensed HVAC contractor" on his business card and the
side of his truck. Just looking though the yellow pages for plumbers
shows many of them assert licensing for installation and repair of gas
furnaces and boilers.

And Janitrol has a website, but there is NO parts information, and I can
promise you, they no longer make parts for the part you are talking about.
Goodman, Janitrols parent, does not offer this part either...however, its
not the fact that it can not be converted over to newer parts..it can...its
about the fact that no one I know will touch it. I wont. I can see my
insurance company now if something were to go wrong..in anyway...

Back to the drawing board. Why can't I replace the 24 volt motor with
a generic one? How do I search (Google) for a supplier? What I'd
really like is someone who offers a service of "Send me your old one
and we'll send you a new one with the appropriate drive shaft". How
would I search for a supplier here?

Forget it..this trade is not like that. Consider that part obsolete,
done....gone...nada...and move on.

Neither is the automobile business but there are people who make a
business of supplying obsolete parts or fabricating them when
necessary.

Alternatively, just as there a people who rebuild generators on cars
aren't there places that rebuild either the motor or the clockwork
mechanism itself. I understand it might require fabrication of some
parts but I have no idea how to go about looking for these things.

Look..you wont find a reliable one..this is one case, where it IS a losing
battle.

I have a rebuilt starter motor in my car. Quite reliable, thank you.

Alternatively, I'm not sure I trust the plumber and his "No current
controls available with a 24 inch blast tube"

OK..then...in simplest terms...STOP.
If you dont trust him, WHY are you even considering using him?????

News flash: I don't trust ANY plumber, HVAC contractor, or
electrician, especially those who want to go for the most expensive
option.

Give ya a hint tho..I have put in furnaces for less than your guy wants to
throw control parts at it.

Including removal of all that asbestos?



FeelFree

To say anything you want.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:19:10 GMT, wrote:

I have a 100+ year old Holland Hot Air Furnace that was originally
coal fired and convection based (10" diameter ducts). It's about 6
foot diameter and 5 foot high. Probably in the thirties it was
converted to gas with the addition of Janitrol controls (300,000 BTU)
in (I presume) the area where you'd normally load in the coal and
somewhere along the way it was converted to forced hot air with the
addition of a squirrel cage blower on the side.

(snip)

Gosh - an old Holland furnace. And a double conversion at that. Can't
think of anything less efficient. Takes me back to one summer many
years ago. I went to see about a job offer for the summer between
college years. I was supposed to go to houses and convince the
prospect that they needed their chimneys cleaned. I was to put some
soot on my hand and show how it insulated my flesh from a burning
match. Once the prospect was convinced the Holland furnace Company
moved in and took apart the clients furnace telling them it was in
very dangerous condition and about to blow up. No wonder they went out
of business. Heh. I went to work for a tree trimming company instead.

Anyway, good luck with your furnace.

"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
"b&k" wrote:

300,000 btu! wow. my (seemingly little) 76,000 btu furnace kind of keeps
our
house warm. where do you live? what are your heating costs? a more modern
furnace may pay for itself in a few years.

About $1600 a year including stoves (2), water heaters (2), and other
gas-fired space heaters (4). It's those last space heaters that make
this not an urgent consideration; the main furnace is just being used
to keep the pipes from freezing.

Don't forget that the 300,000 was probably sized to run with a
convection system, not forced air, and that back in those days the
cost of keeping 4000 sq feet at maybe 75/78 degrees wasn't too much.

Back in the late 80's I calculated the payback period to be about 20
years. I doubt I'll be in the house 20 or even 10 years from now.

Scary...what part of the country you in? I cant see that much being used in
fuel...sheesh..

NYC. $1600 is cheap in comparison to what most of my friends pay.
$3000 and up is more the norm for the size of house.

FeelFree

To say anything you want.

wrote in message
...
"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

The motor which drives the clockwork mechanism has failed resulting in
the inability to open the gas valve and thus supply heat. So say both
myself and the plumber. He of course would like to sell me a new
furnace at about $6500 something that I'm resisting. I understand that
parts are no longer available for the 1930-ish Janitol controls
although I don't know why not. I can buy parts for a 1930's Packard
car--albeit paying an arm and a leg. Janitrol still exist but don't
even seem to have a website.

Two things...plumbers are NOT Heating contractors...thats one...

This one has "licensed HVAC contractor" on his business card and the
side of his truck. Just looking though the yellow pages for plumbers
shows many of them assert licensing for installation and repair of gas
furnaces and boilers.

And an H1 licence in this state considers me to be the same as a P2...a
plumber...I dont do plumbing work. I dont work on water systems.
There was a time in most areas, where a plumbing licence allowed them to
work on units..its a natural thing since in many areas, the heating system
is a water based unit...hydronics...
Now, there are separate licences required, and we still have many plumbers
that do heating work.
You miss the point fully however. I have a pipefitters licence...that does
not mean I do plumbing.


And Janitrol has a website, but there is NO parts information, and I can
promise you, they no longer make parts for the part you are talking
about.
Goodman, Janitrols parent, does not offer this part either...however, its
not the fact that it can not be converted over to newer parts..it
can...its
about the fact that no one I know will touch it. I wont. I can see my
insurance company now if something were to go wrong..in anyway...

Back to the drawing board. Why can't I replace the 24 volt motor with
a generic one? How do I search (Google) for a supplier? What I'd
really like is someone who offers a service of "Send me your old one
and we'll send you a new one with the appropriate drive shaft". How
would I search for a supplier here?

Forget it..this trade is not like that. Consider that part obsolete,
done....gone...nada...and move on.

Neither is the automobile business but there are people who make a
business of supplying obsolete parts or fabricating them when
necessary.

Funny...I was in automotive aftermarket and dealership enviroments for many
years. Still am in a way, since I keep my ASE certs up to date, and my
family owns a dealership. There are MANY parts that you simply cant get, and
if you dont believe that, come on over and look at my 48 Anglia...while
there is little in it that is factory, we kept a few items, and you just
CANT get parts anymore...period.
One of my Hemi Cudas is like that..you can get the hockey stick on the
passenger side, but not the drivers...you can get original still new in box
gills for the kickpanels, but you cant get the original air filter assembly
with the correct decals for the 426 on it....unless you pay out the nose for
a $2 decal...(it was $175 BTW)
The total custom hockey stick decal for the drivers side, when you can get a
company to do a special order like that can run into the thousands....for a
simple section of vinyl.


Alternatively, just as there a people who rebuild generators on cars
aren't there places that rebuild either the motor or the clockwork
mechanism itself. I understand it might require fabrication of some
parts but I have no idea how to go about looking for these things.

Look..you wont find a reliable one..this is one case, where it IS a
losing
battle.

I have a rebuilt starter motor in my car. Quite reliable, thank you.

Wow. A starter motor is NOT a combustion unit for your furnace, and
comparing the two in this case is pointless, particularly with someone that
knows both ends of the biz in question.
Big deal...I have a rebuilt starter on about 4 of the vans, and a rebult
alternator on all of them, and a couple have rebuilt motors...and a
few..when the engines worn to the point that its not worth rebuilding, gets
one of two things....a new engine, rebuilt with a good block of course, or
sold for scrap.
Your furnace...needs to be sold for scrap.


Alternatively, I'm not sure I trust the plumber and his "No current
controls available with a 24 inch blast tube"

OK..then...in simplest terms...STOP.
If you dont trust him, WHY are you even considering using him?????

News flash: I don't trust ANY plumber, HVAC contractor, or
electrician, especially those who want to go for the most expensive
option.

No..the most expensive option if to throw parts at it, and its something you
cant see...
And BTW, I dont trust homeowners that balk at price, when I know good and
damn well I am as cheap as anyone for the equipment we sell, but then, our
clients normally are not worried about much as long as they are confortable,
and know we wont leave em hanging...and they do.
Had a guy today that wanted to barter the price...I listened to him and told
him that we might not be his company, and that he needed to shop on...he
did, and called back about an hour ago...we start on it Friday. Big
deal...its the way we do biz...
Oh..I might also add that we sometimes give units away to the older
folks...complete installs, and donate all we can to the tech
schools....so....take that for what its worth.



Give ya a hint tho..I have put in furnaces for less than your guy wants
to
throw control parts at it.

Including removal of all that asbestos?

Humm...actually, funny you state that...on the website there is a couple of
pics for the state board on a job that a hack screwed up and ran from to
advoid being arrested..(hes got warrants out now, since claiming to be a
contractor in this state and not being licenced is a felony) and there is
asbestos. Since there is a licence for that, and we do not want...we sub
out. The asbestos that needed to be removed...the old hydronics systems pipe
insulation, cost less than $500 for the home.
And we are going to repair the damage to the home for about
that..(1400)..permits included..so..I would dare say yes...in the ballpark.
But...personally, anyone thats got asbestos still in a home, in a heating
system, is either a fool, or foolish. Not saying you are..but its starting
to come out...
You dont want to have to pay for the removal, and abatement, therefore, you
want the furnace in place and running so that you dont have to pull permits
and get hit with an inspector saying...thats all got to go...




FeelFree

To say anything you want.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 02:45:27 GMT, wrote:



Neither is the automobile business but there are people who make a
business of supplying obsolete parts or fabricating them when
necessary.


You've got to be kidding? An old piece of **** furnace is NOT the
same as a classic car.
Nobody on the face of this earth is into collecting and restoring old
furnaces.

And fwiw I ran into what sounds like the same conversion you have
about two months ago. The bizarre bi-metal setup that proves pilot
flame was hanging up. I managed to free the assembly and get the ol'
pile of crap going. The confused look on his face was priceless when
I told him 70 year old parts are no longer available.
I gave him our estimators phone number and told him to call it if it
goes out again.

Nobody with a shred of common sense is going to think there are still
70 year old parts in stock somewhere or that there are some craftsmen
out there in Mayberry that will "rebuild it", charge you $2.95 and tip
his blue hat and tell you to have a nice day.
I'm not going to WASTE my time trying to fabricate something that's
going to put me at a liability risk...not to mention being married to
it and expected to fix it for free everytime it takes a dump for the
owner who doesn't want to part with money to begin with.

"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

Alternatively, just as there a people who rebuild generators on cars
aren't there places that rebuild either the motor or the clockwork
mechanism itself. I understand it might require fabrication of some
parts but I have no idea how to go about looking for these things.

Look..you wont find a reliable one..this is one case, where it IS a
losing
battle.

I have a rebuilt starter motor in my car. Quite reliable, thank you.

Wow. A starter motor is NOT a combustion unit for your furnace, and
comparing the two in this case is pointless, particularly with someone that
knows both ends of the biz in question.
Big deal...I have a rebuilt starter on about 4 of the vans, and a rebult
alternator on all of them, and a couple have rebuilt motors...and a
few..when the engines worn to the point that its not worth rebuilding, gets
one of two things....a new engine, rebuilt with a good block of course, or
sold for scrap.
Your furnace...needs to be sold for scrap.

The throwaway mentality at it's worst. The furnace should and could
last forever (or at least until entropy takes it out or until the sun
turns into a red dwarf) after all it's a simple box which burns gas to
heat air. The problem is a small 24 volt motor that needs replacement,
not the walls of the furnace (approx equivalent in concept to your
engine).

Alternatively, I'm not sure I trust the plumber and his "No current
controls available with a 24 inch blast tube"

OK..then...in simplest terms...STOP.
If you dont trust him, WHY are you even considering using him?????

News flash: I don't trust ANY plumber, HVAC contractor, or
electrician, especially those who want to go for the most expensive
option.

No..the most expensive option if to throw parts at it, and its something you
cant see...

Only one part is really necessary and after that there's a good
likelihood of another 20 years of use.

And BTW, I dont trust homeowners that balk at price, when I know good and
damn well I am as cheap as anyone for the equipment we sell, but then, our
clients normally are not worried about much as long as they are confortable,
and know we wont leave em hanging...and they do.

Since when does the homeowner care if YOU trust him?

Give ya a hint tho..I have put in furnaces for less than your guy wants
to
throw control parts at it.

Including removal of all that asbestos?

But...personally, anyone thats got asbestos still in a home, in a heating
system, is either a fool, or foolish. Not saying you are..but its starting
to come out...

Undisturbed asbestos isn't dangerous. Just another scare tactic by
various contractors.

You dont want to have to pay for the removal, and abatement, therefore, you
want the furnace in place and running so that you dont have to pull permits
and get hit with an inspector saying...thats all got to go...

Inspector? What inspector? We don't hold with those sort of people
where I live.

* * * * * *

General note: To all of the people in this thread who suggested that I
buy a new furnace, thank you but that wasn't the question I asked. I'm
a big boy and can make my own decisions as to how to spend my money.
What I really wanted was a suggestion as to a website (or name) of a
company selling rebuilt electric motors or replacement gas conversion
units or an explanation of why a 24 inch blast tube can't be
fabricated or even what the hell a blast tube is or even the names of
these things (for searching) or a reference to a DIY website
explaining the how and why (like RepairClinic.com for appliances). It
appears that you're all just consumer lemmings when it comes to this
sort of problem.

In the past 20+ years I've become a plumber, electrician, carpenter,
welder, concrete and brick layer, tiler, flooring installer, etc. due
to overly-expensive contractors. I guess it's about time to become a
furnace repair person sigh.


FeelFree

To say anything you want.

wrote in message
...

General note: To all of the people in this thread who suggested that I
buy a new furnace, thank you but that wasn't the question I asked. I'm
a big boy and can make my own decisions as to how to spend my money.


The end of your posts say feel free to say anything we want, now you
withdraw that line because you did not get the answer you want.
You have been given good advice. Do with it what you wish, but don't
complain about it!
Greg

General note: To all of the people in this thread who suggested that I
buy a new furnace, thank you but that wasn't the question I asked. I'm
a big boy and can make my own decisions as to how to spend my money.
What I really wanted was a suggestion as to a website (or name) of a
company selling rebuilt electric motors or replacement gas conversion
units or an explanation of why a 24 inch blast tube can't be
fabricated or even what the hell a blast tube is or even the names of
these things (for searching) or a reference to a DIY website
explaining the how and why (like RepairClinic.com for appliances). It
appears that you're all just consumer lemmings when it comes to this
sort of problem.

In the past 20+ years I've become a plumber, electrician, carpenter,
welder, concrete and brick layer, tiler, flooring installer, etc. due
to overly-expensive contractors. I guess it's about time to become a
furnace repair person sigh.



If you can remove the motor, take it to your local electric motor
repair/rewind shop and they will likely be able to repair it. It may just
need new brushes or bearings.

wrote in message
...
"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

Alternatively, just as there a people who rebuild generators on cars
aren't there places that rebuild either the motor or the clockwork
mechanism itself. I understand it might require fabrication of some
parts but I have no idea how to go about looking for these things.

Look..you wont find a reliable one..this is one case, where it IS a
losing
battle.

I have a rebuilt starter motor in my car. Quite reliable, thank you.

Wow. A starter motor is NOT a combustion unit for your furnace, and
comparing the two in this case is pointless, particularly with someone
that
knows both ends of the biz in question.
Big deal...I have a rebuilt starter on about 4 of the vans, and a rebult
alternator on all of them, and a couple have rebuilt motors...and a
few..when the engines worn to the point that its not worth rebuilding,
gets
one of two things....a new engine, rebuilt with a good block of course,
or
sold for scrap.
Your furnace...needs to be sold for scrap.

The throwaway mentality at it's worst. The furnace should and could
last forever (or at least until entropy takes it out or until the sun
turns into a red dwarf) after all it's a simple box which burns gas to
heat air. The problem is a small 24 volt motor that needs replacement,
not the walls of the furnace (approx equivalent in concept to your
engine).

Wrong..but thats ok...how many guys you know that can get 345,000 miles on a
service vehicle on a regular basis with no rebuild?
Throwaway mentality at its worst? Wrong.


Alternatively, I'm not sure I trust the plumber and his "No current
controls available with a 24 inch blast tube"

OK..then...in simplest terms...STOP.
If you dont trust him, WHY are you even considering using him?????

News flash: I don't trust ANY plumber, HVAC contractor, or
electrician, especially those who want to go for the most expensive
option.

No..the most expensive option if to throw parts at it, and its something
you
cant see...

Only one part is really necessary and after that there's a good
likelihood of another 20 years of use.


Doubtful. At this point, its doubtful you have a clue at what you are doing.


And BTW, I dont trust homeowners that balk at price, when I know good and
damn well I am as cheap as anyone for the equipment we sell, but then,
our
clients normally are not worried about much as long as they are
confortable,
and know we wont leave em hanging...and they do.

Since when does the homeowner care if YOU trust him?


Well, lets see...its a half million dollar home, and they get told to ****
off....humm...then, they call back later and suddenly my $200 per hour fee
isnt so bad.
Yes...I pick and chose, and its obvious I would pass on yours too...
BTW...I could give a **** less if you with your worn out, ancient, dangerous
in all probability unit got mad at me for telling you its a POS...


Give ya a hint tho..I have put in furnaces for less than your guy
wants
to
throw control parts at it.

Including removal of all that asbestos?

But...personally, anyone thats got asbestos still in a home, in a heating
system, is either a fool, or foolish. Not saying you are..but its
starting
to come out...

Undisturbed asbestos isn't dangerous. Just another scare tactic by
various contractors.

Yea..and I aint one of them...careful...you are about to make an insinuation
would not want to do...
The been telling me for years too that I am gonna die from cig smoke....and
thusfar....where is the proof?


You dont want to have to pay for the removal, and abatement, therefore,
you
want the furnace in place and running so that you dont have to pull
permits
and get hit with an inspector saying...thats all got to go...

Inspector? What inspector? We don't hold with those sort of people
where I live.

Yea...you got Stormin Mormon...and NY needs to get its act together and
clean house.


* * * * * *

General note: To all of the people in this thread who suggested that I
buy a new furnace, thank you but that wasn't the question I asked. I'm
a big boy and can make my own decisions as to how to spend my money.
What I really wanted was a suggestion as to a website (or name) of a
company selling rebuilt electric motors or replacement gas conversion
units or an explanation of why a 24 inch blast tube can't be
fabricated or even what the hell a blast tube is or even the names of
these things (for searching) or a reference to a DIY website
explaining the how and why (like RepairClinic.com for appliances). It
appears that you're all just consumer lemmings when it comes to this
sort of problem.

In the past 20+ years I've become a plumber, electrician, carpenter,
welder, concrete and brick layer, tiler, flooring installer, etc. due
to overly-expensive contractors. I guess it's about time to become a
furnace repair person sigh.

That many titles...no wonder you dont know what you are doing..

Funny how you come in, ask for advice, get it from no less than 4 licenced
professionals that dont have to give you the time of day, and you act as if
we are the bad guy..
Tell you what smart guy....I have the parts needed to make it work...its not
what is on there now, but its cheaper than what you are about to pay...
You come get em, and its all yours...every old worn out part on the half
million and under BTU stuff we have out back....you sign a waiver, and get
out of here.
Free...all it would cost you is gas.
But...thats too much for you too...we understand...you just call Good Old
Stormin Mormon...his names Chris Young, and he is in your area...he and you
should make a great team...his ignorance and your failure to understand what
you are doing and why we all do NOT suggest you do it, and its a disaster in
the making.

While I understand WHY you would like to do what you are, its a stupid idea,
and at this point, ignorant.





FeelFree

To say anything you want.

040114 1919 - wrote:

I have a 100+ year old Holland Hot Air Furnace that was originally
coal fired and convection based (10" diameter ducts). It's about 6
foot diameter and 5 foot high. Probably in the thirties it was
converted to gas with the addition of Janitrol controls (300,000 BTU)
in (I presume) the area where you'd normally load in the coal and
somewhere along the way it was converted to forced hot air with the
addition of a squirrel cage blower on the side.

The Janitrol controls stick out the front of the furnace and consist
of a pancake gas valve operated by a clockwork mechanism (it looks
like something out of a Victorian-age museum) which lifts a lever and
opens the valve. The clockwork mechanism is operated by a 24V small
motor which is powered via the limit control and the thermostat back
to a transformer on the wall. According to the plumber the controls
have a 24" blast tube (important!).

The motor which drives the clockwork mechanism has failed resulting in
the inability to open the gas valve and thus supply heat. So say both
myself and the plumber. He of course would like to sell me a new
furnace at about $6500 something that I'm resisting. I understand that
parts are no longer available for the 1930-ish Janitol controls
although I don't know why not. I can buy parts for a 1930's Packard
car--albeit paying an arm and a leg. Janitrol still exist but don't
even seem to have a website.

The next step down from replacement of the entire thing is to replace
the controls as a group (about $1400) but the problem here is the lack
of a 24 inch blast tube on the modern units according to the plumber.
Most current gas replacement controls use a 12 or so inch blast tube.
Apparently the 24 inch is not an exact measurement but could be 20, 22
etc. I presume the blast tube is some sort of pipe that goes from the
controls to the burner. If they don't make one why couldn't one be
fabricated from steel (titanium? copper? bronze?)? I don't think the
plumber is interested in following this option. How do I get someone
who is?

Back to the drawing board. Why can't I replace the 24 volt motor with
a generic one? How do I search (Google) for a supplier? What I'd
really like is someone who offers a service of "Send me your old one
and we'll send you a new one with the appropriate drive shaft". How
would I search for a supplier here?

Alternatively, just as there a people who rebuild generators on cars
aren't there places that rebuild either the motor or the clockwork
mechanism itself. I understand it might require fabrication of some
parts but I have no idea how to go about looking for these things.

Alternatively, I'm not sure I trust the plumber and his "No current
controls available with a 24 inch blast tube" If I google on "gas
furnace conversion controls" I end up with a whole lot of junk on
conversion from oil of LP gas. No one talks about coal and even if
it's the same for a oil conversion I can't find any specifications or
even see any actual units. Everyone just wants to sell me a whole
furnace sigh.

Any suggestions?

FeelFree

To say anything you want.

Here is a Janitrol Home Page:

http://www.janitrol.com/home.jsp

They are now a division of Goodman. You could send them an Email and give
them the model number of the control that you want to find parts for and
find out where you can get another motor for it. You could also haunt some
of the electric control message boards and see if someone has an idea about
where a motor can be obtained that may replace the one you have.

wrote in message
...


Back in the late 80's I calculated the payback period to be about 20
years. I doubt I'll be in the house 20 or even 10 years from now.


Like it or not you are going to save more on fuel than you think. Like
it or not, you will get your money back if you are not there when you sell.
No one in their right mind is going to want that old furnace and will factor
in the cost of a new furnace when they consider buying.

You are being so cheap, that it is costing you. There is a limit and
you are 20 years past it.


--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

You are probably running 40% efficency and can go to 95%.
A variable speed motor will cut your electric bill by maybe 20 a month.
You have a furnace that will hurt your future sale,and house value.
Wake up It is costing you money , A new unit would be the best
Investment you could make with quick payback.

A year or two ago, my boss and I ran into much the same situation. The
family was living in a house with a big "octopus" furnace. The furnace had
been convection, much like yours. The boss had added a couple duct booster
fans, but it came time that the old beast wasn't repairable. It was also
costing her something like $600 a month in natural gas bill.

We had to scoop a couple hundred pounds of sand off the top of it, and then
it was a real chore to get it apart. They used to use square nuts back then,
instead of the hex nuts we've got wrenches for now days.

It also took a bunch of duct work, to tie everything in. I can't remember
the make and model we put in, but it was a 90+ efficiency unit. And we put
in central AC while we had it all in pieces.

As I remember, they paid for it all in energy savings. Combine that with
having central AC, and they were quite pleased.

What are your energy bills like? Seriously, how much are you paying now? I
think that might be the deciding factor, is cutting your gas and electric
usage. Plus the comfort of having more even heat. You might also get central
AC on your next furnace, too.

--

Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
...
I have a 100+ year old Holland Hot Air Furnace that was originally
coal fired and convection based (10" diameter ducts). It's about 6
foot diameter and 5 foot high. Probably in the thirties it was
converted to gas with the addition of Janitrol controls (300,000 BTU)
in (I presume) the area where you'd normally load in the coal and
somewhere along the way it was converted to forced hot air with the
addition of a squirrel cage blower on the side.

The Janitrol controls stick out the front of the furnace and consist
of a pancake gas valve operated by a clockwork mechanism (it looks
like something out of a Victorian-age museum) which lifts a lever and
opens the valve. The clockwork mechanism is operated by a 24V small
motor which is powered via the limit control and the thermostat back
to a transformer on the wall. According to the plumber the controls
have a 24" blast tube (important!).

The motor which drives the clockwork mechanism has failed resulting in
the inability to open the gas valve and thus supply heat. So say both
myself and the plumber. He of course would like to sell me a new
furnace at about $6500 something that I'm resisting. I understand that
parts are no longer available for the 1930-ish Janitol controls
although I don't know why not. I can buy parts for a 1930's Packard
car--albeit paying an arm and a leg. Janitrol still exist but don't
even seem to have a website.

The next step down from replacement of the entire thing is to replace
the controls as a group (about $1400) but the problem here is the lack
of a 24 inch blast tube on the modern units according to the plumber.
Most current gas replacement controls use a 12 or so inch blast tube.
Apparently the 24 inch is not an exact measurement but could be 20, 22
etc. I presume the blast tube is some sort of pipe that goes from the
controls to the burner. If they don't make one why couldn't one be
fabricated from steel (titanium? copper? bronze?)? I don't think the
plumber is interested in following this option. How do I get someone
who is?

Back to the drawing board. Why can't I replace the 24 volt motor with
a generic one? How do I search (Google) for a supplier? What I'd
really like is someone who offers a service of "Send me your old one
and we'll send you a new one with the appropriate drive shaft". How
would I search for a supplier here?

Alternatively, just as there a people who rebuild generators on cars
aren't there places that rebuild either the motor or the clockwork
mechanism itself. I understand it might require fabrication of some
parts but I have no idea how to go about looking for these things.

Alternatively, I'm not sure I trust the plumber and his "No current
controls available with a 24 inch blast tube" If I google on "gas
furnace conversion controls" I end up with a whole lot of junk on
conversion from oil of LP gas. No one talks about coal and even if
it's the same for a oil conversion I can't find any specifications or
even see any actual units. Everyone just wants to sell me a whole
furnace sigh.

Any suggestions?

FeelFree

To say anything you want.

When my parents bought their first house (1965) they had to pull out the
octopus furnace, and replace it with an 80 peercenter. I'm with Joseph on
this one -- any potential buyer is likely to look at your octopus furnace,
and figure in the replacement cost of the furnace before he puts a bid on
your house.

I was reading the posts involved, and it sounds like the part you need is
part of a gas valve. How about if you were to do some piping work and put in
a modern gas valve instead of the external motor drive thing?

--

Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...


Back in the late 80's I calculated the payback period to be about 20
years. I doubt I'll be in the house 20 or even 10 years from now.


Like it or not you are going to save more on fuel than you think. Like
it or not, you will get your money back if you are not there when you sell.
No one in their right mind is going to want that old furnace and will factor
in the cost of a new furnace when they consider buying.

You are being so cheap, that it is costing you. There is a limit and
you are 20 years past it.


--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math