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Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 21st 07, 02:33 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

on 7/20/2007 2:47 PM Percival P. Cassidy said the following:
I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
remaking some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes
by larger (e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases
all the conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps
that have then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?
Surely wirenuts provide better insulation than the tape. There could
be 220/240 volts between conductors in some boxes because there are
Edison circuits involved.

Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up
less room.

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
the other is too.

Perce


I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
crimp off with a pair of pliers?


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In Hamptonburgh, NY
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  #12  
Old July 21st 07, 05:38 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 109
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?



I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
crimp off with a pair of pliers?


With many people, (especially with those who live in countries where
they are banned), there seems to be some sort of bias against the use
of wire nuts, even though they are a perfectly acceptable and an NEC
legally approved method of making splices. When done properly, by
twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.

Wire nuts offer the advantages of simplicity, economy, speed, and the
flexibility to make future changes without destroying the connecter.

Open up enough outlet boxes where the splices have been taped after 5,
10, or 20 years and you will, more likely than not, find examples
where the tape has dried up or even fallen off the splices it was
intended to cover.

Beachcomber



  #13  
Old July 21st 07, 06:39 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 2,906
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

"willshak" wrote in message
...
on 7/20/2007 2:47 PM Percival P. Cassidy said the following:
I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
(e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher? Surely wirenuts
provide better insulation than the tape. There could be 220/240 volts
between conductors in some boxes because there are Edison circuits
involved.

Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up less
room.

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
the other is too.

Perce


I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or switches?
Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the crimp off with
a pair of pliers?
Bill



Two things:

If you can remove a crimp using pliers, it means the crimp wasn't installed
correctly in the first place. If you need to change a connection, you cut on
either side of the crimp. If you're running new wiring, you leave extra in
case you need to cut out a crimp. If it seems that existing wiring is
already too short to allow cutting later, use wire nuts.


  #14  
Old July 22nd 07, 04:08 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 824
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there is
absolutely no need for it.


These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped
onto the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if
they are used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards.
What would you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?

Perce
  #15  
Old July 22nd 07, 04:21 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 824
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

On 07/21/07 12:38 pm Beachcomber wrote:

I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
crimp off with a pair of pliers?


With many people, (especially with those who live in countries where
they are banned), there seems to be some sort of bias against the use
of wire nuts, even though they are a perfectly acceptable and an NEC
legally approved method of making splices.


I must admit to having been horrified the first time I saw a wirenutted
connection. Looked like some real Rube Goldberg affair. What I was used
to seeing for electrical connections was a box made of insulating
material, with firmly attached brass "busbars" with wires inserted into
the holes and held secure by clamping screws.

When done properly, by
twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.


I have read that the wires must *not* be twisted together first. In fact
I just read a claim that UL approval of wirenuts depends on them making
a secure connection without pretwisting the conductors.

Wire nuts offer the advantages of simplicity, economy, speed, and the
flexibility to make future changes without destroying the connecter.

Open up enough outlet boxes where the splices have been taped after 5,
10, or 20 years and you will, more likely than not, find examples
where the tape has dried up or even fallen off the splices it was
intended to cover.


The ones I just encountered were likely original (30 years) and the tape
was tight.

Perce
  #16  
Old July 22nd 07, 04:23 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 2,906
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there
is absolutely no need for it.


These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped onto
the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if they are
used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards. What would
you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?

Perce



Since the wrong kind of crimps were used, I would cut them out and change
them to insulated crimps. If you have the wrong connectors, you don't use
them and try and make them right. You stop the work until you have the right
thing. A cob job might be appropriate when making toast, but not when wiring
a house (or car, boat, or anything else).


  #17  
Old July 22nd 07, 05:35 AM posted to alt.home.repair
mm
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Posts: 7,843
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:21:52 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:



I must admit to having been horrified the first time I saw a wirenutted
connection. Looked like some real Rube Goldberg affair. What I was used
to seeing for electrical connections was a box made of insulating
material, with firmly attached brass "busbars" with wires inserted into
the holes and held secure by clamping screws.

When done properly, by
twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.


I have read that the wires must *not* be twisted together first. In fact
I just read a claim that UL approval of wirenuts depends on them making
a secure connection without pretwisting the conductors.


Is your first sentence in your paragraph above a conclusion you
reached from your second sentence, or was it a separate statement you
read?

The seoncd sentence means that the wirenuts must be able to make a
secure connection if the wires are not pretwisted. It does not in
itself doesn't mean that the wires can't also be pretwisted. Or even
that it wouldn't work better if they were pretwitsted.

I only do this stuff once in a while, and sometimes I don't pretwist,
I guess usually when I don't have pliers handy, but I feel more
confidant of the electrical connection when it is pretwisted. Based
on my knowledge of things and materials and touching, I don't know how
it could be otherwise.
  #18  
Old July 22nd 07, 07:10 AM posted to alt.home.repair
CJT
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Posts: 1,155
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...

On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:


One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there
is absolutely no need for it.


These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped onto
the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if they are
used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards. What would
you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?

Perce




Since the wrong kind of crimps were used,


On what is that conclusion based?

I would cut them out and change
them to insulated crimps. If you have the wrong connectors, you don't use
them and try and make them right. You stop the work until you have the right
thing. A cob job might be appropriate when making toast, but not when wiring
a house (or car, boat, or anything else).




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minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .
  #19  
Old July 22nd 07, 01:49 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 2,906
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

"CJT" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...

On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:


One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there
is absolutely no need for it.

These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped onto
the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if they are
used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards. What would
you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?

Perce




Since the wrong kind of crimps were used,


On what is that conclusion based?


Bare copper cylinders need to be insulated after they're installed, right?
One method would involve tape, which is sloppy and amateurish, and I don't
care whose grandpappy did it and got away with it. The other method
involves heat shrink tubing, which is miraculous stuff, but to use it
**correctly**, you should apply heat to all sides of the tubing. Not so easy
with short wires in a box.


  #20  
Old July 22nd 07, 08:12 PM posted to alt.home.repair
CJT
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Posts: 1,155
Default Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

"CJT" wrote in message
...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...


On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:



One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there
is absolutely no need for it.

These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped onto
the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if they are
used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards. What would
you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?

Perce



Since the wrong kind of crimps were used,


On what is that conclusion based?



Bare copper cylinders need to be insulated after they're installed, right?
One method would involve tape, which is sloppy and amateurish, and I don't
care whose grandpappy did it and got away with it. The other method
involves heat shrink tubing, which is miraculous stuff, but to use it
**correctly**, you should apply heat to all sides of the tubing. Not so easy
with short wires in a box.


Your preference against it doesn't make it "wrong."

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .
 




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