In ,
Herman Rubin wrote:

*In article ,
*Hillary Israeli wrote:
*
**Huh? First of all, I don't believe bussing killed public schools or
**private schools or anything at all (i'm not sure what you're trying to say
**bussing did, actually).
*
*The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to
*schools which they could manage, was good. When it came
*to "racial balance", it was bad.

I still don't really understand by what means you think bussing "killed"
any particular schools.

**We have to watch out for the hyperegalitarians trying to
*
*What is a "hyperegalitarian?"
*
*Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal
*in any manner.

No it's not. There is no such word.

**The educationists and hyperegalitarians cannot admit that
**there is a large range of mental abilities, and even if
**they changed now, the public schools could not do what is
**needed in a generation, alas.
*
*OK, well - I think there is a huge range of ability, I think our public
*schools are failing, and I think vouchers would probably make them
*worse... but I have no idea what you're talking about.
*
*Nothing can make our schools better in the short run.

Well, actually, a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of highly
capable and dedicated teachers would certainly improve them quickly!

*What vouchers can do is to enable academics to be used
*to set up better educational programs than the present
*schools could, even if they wanted to.

I disagree.

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
*Nothing can make our schools better in the short run.

Well, actually, a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of highly
capable and dedicated teachers would certainly improve them quickly!


Another fantasy.

Cash would be consumed by the tenured - but newly enriched - union members.

Capability of teachers? You mean we'd check the quality of their output -
students - instead of their certificate? Yeah, that's about likely. Once
you're in, even the area of certification is meaningless.

Dedication? When you motivate by money, you attract those motivated by
money. Try staying after school to help some kids and see how fast your
steward comes down on you.

Conventional non-thinking.

George wrote:
"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
*Nothing can make our schools better in the short run.

Well, actually, a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of
highly
capable and dedicated teachers would certainly improve them
quickly!


Another fantasy.

Cash would be consumed by the tenured - but newly enriched - union
members.

Capability of teachers? You mean we'd check the quality of their
output -
students - instead of their certificate? Yeah, that's about likely.
Once
you're in, even the area of certification is meaningless.

Dedication? When you motivate by money, you attract those motivated
by
money. Try staying after school to help some kids and see how fast
your
steward comes down on you.

Conventional non-thinking.

I agree. Cash isn't the cure, but I also know that locally anyway, and
over a fairly wide local area, teachers routinely stay after school,
and come in early, to assist students who need it (or who wish to
improve on already good work). No "stewards" have anything to say about
it.

Dedication and capability, though, are highly variable, even in the
same teacher over time. And blaming the mess totally on teachers and
teachers unions is an absolutely horrendous mistake. Certainly, ****
poor teachers don't do a good job. But, then again, neither do ****
poor students, many of whom are trained, if that's the word, to
disregard anything that doesn't meet
specific inanities. Parents must take a role, and the greater the force
and direction of the parental role, the more likely the student is to
be successful, even in the face of mediocre, or worse, teaching.

Money is a useful adjunct when you're trying to attract good teachers,
but it is only a true motivator, IMO, for those in the early stges of
their careers. Somehow, 35K in Alexandria, VA sounds like a lot more
than 29K 200 miles southwest. At this point, those doing personnel
searches in the SW of VA haven't learned to point up the differences in
things like rent ($750 and up in the Alex area, $450 in the SW area,
same square footage, condition, etc.), while gas in the SW area is 15%
cheaper, food the same, etc. And, biggest blessing of all, you're not
dealing with the slop over from big city traffic (largest city in the
area is 95,000).

In article , George says...


"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
*Nothing can make our schools better in the short run.

Well, actually, a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of highly
capable and dedicated teachers would certainly improve them quickly!


Another fantasy.

Cash would be consumed by the tenured - but newly enriched - union members.

Capability of teachers? You mean we'd check the quality of their output -
students - instead of their certificate? Yeah, that's about likely. Once
you're in, even the area of certification is meaningless.

Dedication? When you motivate by money, you attract those motivated by
money. Try staying after school to help some kids and see how fast your
steward comes down on you.

Conventional non-thinking.




Would that we decide that we need people who are highly motivated to make
businesses suceed, and not those motivated by mere money, to run our
corporations. So clearly we've gone the wrong route by paying CEO's so much.

Your non-conventional thinking is wonderful!

Banty (hey, sports too! - think we could convince Steinbrenner??)

In article , "George" george@least
wrote:

Dedication? When you motivate by money, you attract those motivated by
money. Try staying after school to help some kids and see how fast your
steward comes down on you.

Conventional non-thinking.

Right. Most of the teachers *I* know got into teaching for the Big
Bucks.

And I know MANY teachers who stay after school to help kids -- and even
spend evening or weekend hours available to help -- and none have gotten
in trouble with their unions. Heck, even when unions have issued a
"work to rule" order, some teachers ignore it and continue to put in
hours over and above what is required by contract.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...
Money is a useful adjunct when you're trying to attract good teachers,
but it is only a true motivator, IMO, for those in the early stges of
their careers. Somehow, 35K in Alexandria, VA sounds like a lot more
than 29K 200 miles southwest. At this point, those doing personnel
searches in the SW of VA haven't learned to point up the differences in
things like rent ($750 and up in the Alex area, $450 in the SW area,
same square footage, condition, etc.), while gas in the SW area is 15%
cheaper, food the same, etc. And, biggest blessing of all, you're not
dealing with the slop over from big city traffic (largest city in the
area is 95,000).


Well, dragons notwithstanding, wages are great, job guarantees are better,
and time off for those who want it (why some got into it anyway) is
abundant.

As to salaries - I thought 45 in the boondocks was a _lot_ more than 75 in
the inner city. My sister-in-law, having gone back to elementary, resists
all effort to put her back in middle school where many are larger than she.
Smart woman.

In article , George says...


"Charlie Self" wrote in message
roups.com...
Money is a useful adjunct when you're trying to attract good teachers,
but it is only a true motivator, IMO, for those in the early stges of
their careers. Somehow, 35K in Alexandria, VA sounds like a lot more
than 29K 200 miles southwest. At this point, those doing personnel
searches in the SW of VA haven't learned to point up the differences in
things like rent ($750 and up in the Alex area, $450 in the SW area,
same square footage, condition, etc.), while gas in the SW area is 15%
cheaper, food the same, etc. And, biggest blessing of all, you're not
dealing with the slop over from big city traffic (largest city in the
area is 95,000).


Well, dragons notwithstanding, wages are great, job guarantees are better,
and time off for those who want it (why some got into it anyway) is
abundant.

As to salaries - I thought 45 in the boondocks was a _lot_ more than 75 in
the inner city. My sister-in-law, having gone back to elementary, resists
all effort to put her back in middle school where many are larger than she.
Smart woman.



I'll try not to grow my kid too big, sorry 'bout that.

In article ,
Hillary Israeli wrote:
In ,
Herman Rubin wrote:

*In article ,
*Hillary Israeli wrote:

**Huh? First of all, I don't believe bussing killed public schools or
**private schools or anything at all (i'm not sure what you're trying to say
**bussing did, actually).

*The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to
*schools which they could manage, was good. When it came
*to "racial balance", it was bad.

I still don't really understand by what means you think bussing "killed"
any particular schools.

It caused them to lower their standards. This did more
than reduce the amount children learned; it greatly
hampered, in many cases permanently, their ability to
think.

**We have to watch out for the hyperegalitarians trying to

*What is a "hyperegalitarian?"

*Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal
*in any manner.

No it's not. There is no such word.

Words are coined daily. This one should be easy.

**The educationists and hyperegalitarians cannot admit that
**there is a large range of mental abilities, and even if
**they changed now, the public schools could not do what is
**needed in a generation, alas.

*OK, well - I think there is a huge range of ability, I think our public
*schools are failing, and I think vouchers would probably make them
*worse... but I have no idea what you're talking about.

*Nothing can make our schools better in the short run.

Well, actually, a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of highly
capable and dedicated teachers would certainly improve them quickly!

We have lots of dedicated teachers. But we have a
curriculum set up by those who do not understand subject
matter, especially at the administrative level. The
"new math" debacle of 45 years ago showed that the teachers
could not learn concepts, but could only proceed by plug
and chug methods. A large proportion of those taught to
read by the whole word method were unable to learn to make
good use of the alphabet later. Grammar is almost out,
and structure likewise.

Capable teachers would have to be those who understand
concepts and are willing to teach them, and we need to
allow them to be taught, which means throwing out almost
the entire curriculum. These teachers would mainly have
to be those not taking education courses, and hence not
being able to be credentialed. This CAN be done.

What cannot be done quickly is to produce the revised
curriculum. It took years to produce and test the
"new math" curriculum before it was introduced in the
public schools. With a "grade" system, it is hard to
see how a concept-oriented curriculum can work, as one
cannot provide a schedule for learning a concept.

There were highly unsuccessful attempts to teach concepts
to the teachers, the same concepts which could be taught
to the children. This has, if anything, gotten considerably
worse.

*What vouchers can do is to enable academics to be used
*to set up better educational programs than the present
*schools could, even if they wanted to.

I disagree.


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

On 5 May 2005 21:09:30 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

**We have to watch out for the hyperegalitarians trying to

*What is a "hyperegalitarian?"

*Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal
*in any manner.

No it's not. There is no such word.

Words are coined daily. This one should be easy.

LOL. It is certainly true that words are coined daily.
Interestingly, the children in the fourth grade class I substituted
in today were reading Frindle about just such a possibility.

http://www.frindle.com/pages/wherefrindleidea.html


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article ,
toto wrote:
On 5 May 2005 21:09:30 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

**We have to watch out for the hyperegalitarians trying to

*What is a "hyperegalitarian?"

*Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal
*in any manner.

No it's not. There is no such word.

Words are coined daily. This one should be easy.

LOL. It is certainly true that words are coined daily.
Interestingly, the children in the fourth grade class I substituted
in today were reading Frindle about just such a possibility.

http://www.frindle.com/pages/wherefrindleidea.html

I am not the one who coined it, or at least I was not
the one who brought it into use. One which is a little
harder, and also refers to the PC, is

hyperinfracaniphilia.

We have too much of this as well.


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

In ,
George george@least wrote:

*
*"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
* *Nothing can make our schools better in the short run.
*
* Well, actually, a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of highly
* capable and dedicated teachers would certainly improve them quickly!
*
*
*Another fantasy.

Obviously I do not believe a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of
highly capable and dedicated teachers is forthcoming. I stand by my
statement that this would in fact improve schools quickly.

*Cash would be consumed by the tenured - but newly enriched - union members.

Not if it was budgeted for other uses. Teachers do not usually have a
contractual clause stating all new district income must be equally
distributed among tenured faculty or anything!

*Capability of teachers?

Is English not your first language?
Capability: (noun)power or ability, the extent of someone's abilities.
Does that help?

*You mean we'd check the quality of their output - students - instead of
*their certificate?

No, I don't mean that. I did not speak as to the method of determining the
capability of teachers as that is not my area of expertise. Since you ask,
I will comment that the method you propose seems foolish - seems to
promote things like "teaching to the test," for one, and seems as if it
would be harmful to those teachers who take on groups of less-capable
students! What seems fairer to me would be a combination of looking at the
educational background of teachers, letters of recommendation, and percent
increase in grade level or test scores in students. But as I said, that's
not my area of expertise, and I'm just saying that having increased
numbers of very capable teachers could only help the situation.

*Yeah, that's about likely.

None of this is LIKELY. But a statement was made that NOTHING could help.
I countered this with a description of things I think actually WOULD help.

*Dedication? When you motivate by money, you attract those motivated by
*money.

I don't get your point. Who said anything about motivating by money? I
believe part of the definition of "capable and dedicated" is "motivated by
a desire to do a good job," for one thing. The kind of teacher I'm talking
about would be available to help students who were having problems, via
telephone if necessary, or some other arrangement, for example.

* Try staying after school to help some kids and see how fast your steward
* comes down on you.

Hmmm. I went to a public school; I stayed after school to do extra work
with teachers pretty regularly. I have friends who are teachers; they help
kids during their breaks or after hours pretty regularly. I don't know
what you are talking about.

*Conventional non-thinking.

Now, now. Which is it? Fantasy, or conventional?

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

In ,
Herman Rubin wrote:

*In article ,
*Hillary Israeli wrote:
*
**The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to
**schools which they could manage, was good. When it came
**to "racial balance", it was bad.
*
*I still don't really understand by what means you think bussing "killed"
*any particular schools.
*
*It caused them to lower their standards. This did more
*than reduce the amount children learned; it greatly
*hampered, in many cases permanently, their ability to
*think.

I must misunderstand still. If you are talking about bussing simply to
equalize for racial balance, then how can this result in a lowering of
standards? You mean the standard was to have white kids, and adding in
black kids lowered the standard? Or you mean the standard was to have kids
from the Right Side of the Tracks, and adding in kids from the Wrong Side
lowered the standard? Either way, I'm not liking your thinking here.

**What is a "hyperegalitarian?"
*
**Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal
**in any manner.
*
*No it's not. There is no such word.
*
*Words are coined daily. This one should be easy.

Words are generally supposed to effect communication. Using made-up words
hardly furthers that goal. Just my opinion!

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

In article ,
Hillary Israeli wrote:
In ,
Herman Rubin wrote:

*In article ,
*Hillary Israeli wrote:

**The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to
**schools which they could manage, was good. When it came
**to "racial balance", it was bad.

*I still don't really understand by what means you think bussing "killed"
*any particular schools.

*It caused them to lower their standards. This did more
*than reduce the amount children learned; it greatly
*hampered, in many cases permanently, their ability to
*think.

I must misunderstand still. If you are talking about bussing simply to
equalize for racial balance, then how can this result in a lowering of
standards? You mean the standard was to have white kids, and adding in
black kids lowered the standard? Or you mean the standard was to have kids
from the Right Side of the Tracks, and adding in kids from the Wrong Side
lowered the standard? Either way, I'm not liking your thinking here.

If the schools were teaching a curriculum, with the
levels of classes maintained, it would not be too
bad, but it might still be a problem. But by this
time, it had already been the practice to reduce the
content to what the weaker students could learn, the
"lowest common denominator".

In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely
LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than
an hour to the "school day". Before integration,
black children frequently went to schools farther
than the white schools they were asking to get in.
But busing for racial balance provided for a lot
less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Also, no matter where you put the tracks, the kids
on one side and those on the other side will not
have the same mental abilities nor the same types
of opportunities to learn beyond the limitations
of the schools, from the beginning. The schools
in the 30's tried to eliminate these opportunities,
but after Sputnik, they were forced to bring the
parents back into the loop.

**What is a "hyperegalitarian?"

**Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal
**in any manner.

*No it's not. There is no such word.

*Words are coined daily. This one should be easy.

Words are generally supposed to effect communication. Using made-up words
hardly furthers that goal. Just my opinion!

I would expect someone who understands English to
be able to understand "hyperegalitarian" without
much difficulty. Even "hyperinfracaniphiliac"
should not be too hard.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

On 12 May 2005 10:50:14 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely
LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than
an hour to the "school day". Before integration,
black children frequently went to schools farther
than the white schools they were asking to get in.
But busing for racial balance provided for a lot
less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Why is it that busing for integration is questioned, but busing
for distance is not. The same amount of time is spent on
the bus. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the busing is.
Of course, if you are against busing kids then you have to
build schools closer to their homes.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article ,
toto wrote:
On 12 May 2005 10:50:14 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely
LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than
an hour to the "school day". Before integration,
black children frequently went to schools farther
than the white schools they were asking to get in.
But busing for racial balance provided for a lot
less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Why is it that busing for integration is questioned, but busing
for distance is not. The same amount of time is spent on
the bus. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the busing is.
Of course, if you are against busing kids then you have to
build schools closer to their homes.

Suppose you have two areas, with an hour ride between
them. Each has schools. Busing students from one
area to the other just to get racial balance is what
is stupid.

I believe that we will eventually have much done with
electronic classes. There are not that many things
which require physical contact to learn. More and
more of this IS being done now in regions where the
distances are great. This can also be done where
students of a given type are not concentrated in
sufficient numbers.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

(Herman Rubin) wrote:
In article ,
toto wrote:
On 12 May 2005 10:50:14 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely
LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than
an hour to the "school day". Before integration,
black children frequently went to schools farther
than the white schools they were asking to get in.
But busing for racial balance provided for a lot
less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Why is it that busing for integration is questioned, but busing
for distance is not. The same amount of time is spent on
the bus. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the busing is.
Of course, if you are against busing kids then you have to
build schools closer to their homes.

Suppose you have two areas, with an hour ride between
them. Each has schools. Busing students from one
area to the other just to get racial balance is what
is stupid.

Only if you think "racial balance" is stupid. Replace "racial
balance" by "an academically challenging school" and you probably
would have no problem with it.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

I'd like to get a voucher to learn some more woodworking. I thought this
was a woodworking NG. Start your own NG for politics and leave our NG alone.


"Bob LeChevalier" wrote in message
...
(Herman Rubin) wrote:
In article ,
toto wrote:
On 12 May 2005 10:50:14 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely
LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than
an hour to the "school day". Before integration,
black children frequently went to schools farther
than the white schools they were asking to get in.
But busing for racial balance provided for a lot
less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Why is it that busing for integration is questioned, but busing
for distance is not. The same amount of time is spent on
the bus. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the busing is.
Of course, if you are against busing kids then you have to
build schools closer to their homes.

Suppose you have two areas, with an hour ride between
them. Each has schools. Busing students from one
area to the other just to get racial balance is what
is stupid.

Only if you think "racial balance" is stupid. Replace "racial
balance" by "an academically challenging school" and you probably
would have no problem with it.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

In article ,
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
(Herman Rubin) wrote:
In article ,
toto wrote:
On 12 May 2005 10:50:14 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely
LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than
an hour to the "school day". Before integration,
black children frequently went to schools farther
than the white schools they were asking to get in.
But busing for racial balance provided for a lot
less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Why is it that busing for integration is questioned, but busing
for distance is not. The same amount of time is spent on
the bus. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the busing is.
Of course, if you are against busing kids then you have to
build schools closer to their homes.

Suppose you have two areas, with an hour ride between
them. Each has schools. Busing students from one
area to the other just to get racial balance is what
is stupid.

Only if you think "racial balance" is stupid. Replace "racial
balance" by "an academically challenging school" and you probably
would have no problem with it.

Racial balance has NEVER been legislated; what has
been legislated is no racial discrimination.

It is one thing to travel to a school which gives a
substantially stronger education, but is spending
two hours a day doing nothing worth it? Busing two
ways to get racial balance certainly does not get
justified by this type of argument.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

THIS IS A WOODWORKING NEWS GROUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
(Herman Rubin) wrote:
In article ,
toto wrote:
On 12 May 2005 10:50:14 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely
LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than
an hour to the "school day". Before integration,
black children frequently went to schools farther
than the white schools they were asking to get in.
But busing for racial balance provided for a lot
less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Why is it that busing for integration is questioned, but busing
for distance is not. The same amount of time is spent on
the bus. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the busing is.
Of course, if you are against busing kids then you have to
build schools closer to their homes.

Suppose you have two areas, with an hour ride between
them. Each has schools. Busing students from one
area to the other just to get racial balance is what
is stupid.

Only if you think "racial balance" is stupid. Replace "racial
balance" by "an academically challenging school" and you probably
would have no problem with it.

Racial balance has NEVER been legislated; what has
been legislated is no racial discrimination.

It is one thing to travel to a school which gives a
substantially stronger education, but is spending
two hours a day doing nothing worth it? Busing two
ways to get racial balance certainly does not get
justified by this type of argument.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

"Bob LeChevalier" wrote
He considers that anyone having to follow any rules imposed by someone
else (except their parents, I guess, since he approves of
homeschooling, even though such parents may impose more rules than do
any school) is "suffering".

You really don't know much about homeschooling do you Bob?
Its not about *rules*, it's about *learning*, for a lifetime.
Something that is woefully missing from the public embarrassments, but
people like you couldn't care less.

"toto" wrote
"Don" wrote:
Here's the game I play, Dragonlady.
We homeschooled our son to graduate 3 years earlier than his peers, and he
did so in the top 1/2% in the state.

I don't know what the fascination is with *graduating early.* It's no
guarantee that a student won't burn out.

Burn out on *learning*?
How?
Its a life long journey, you know.

"Banty" wrote
Don says...
"Banty" wrote
Ah - then you have cites. Please let us know where you may have any
underpinnings to your rantings here.

What books have you published?

Google is your friend, use it.
Start with the word: homeschooling

If you think you can handle it, Google: John Gatto

Are you "John Gatto"? Yes or no.

No.
Did you google him?

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 May 2005 04:30:54 GMT, "Don"
wrote:

"Banty" wrote
Ah - then you have cites. Please let us know where you may have any
underpinnings to your rantings here.

What books have you published?

Google is your friend, use it.
Start with the word: homeschooling

If you think you can handle it, Google: John Gatto

You are not Gatto.

You are not toto.
Got any more revelations?

"Bob LeChevalier" wrote in message
...
"Don" wrote:
"Banty" wrote
Ah - then you have cites. Please let us know where you may have any
underpinnings to your rantings here.

What books have you published?

Google is your friend, use it.
Start with the word: homeschooling

If you think you can handle it, Google: John Gatto

Your name is not John Gatto.

I have previously posted numerous refutations of Gatto's shoddy,
false, and undocumented assertions about the schools.

There ya go, Bob admits to the standard socialist smear job they are famous
for.

But you've been given a chance to freely and relevantly promote your
wife's books and website, and are failing to do so. This leads people
to believe you are a fraud.

Bob, Bob, Bob.
No one can be this silly, can they?
My wife doesn't need giggle your charity.
Believe it or not, Bob, there is a great big world outside this newsgroup.
Turn the monitor off, Bob, take a walk outside, meet some REAL people for a
change.
If you do that Bob I think you'll find life isn't as misserable as you'd
like it to be for public school kids.

"dragonlady" wrote
I'm referring to the game you are playing on this thread.

I'm talking about the serious nature to your commitment to punishing
children, perhaps for the rest of their lives, by requiring them to be
trapped in the public prisons jokingly called schools.

On Fri, 27 May 2005 04:48:23 GMT, "Don"
wrote:

"toto" wrote
"Don" wrote:
Here's the game I play, Dragonlady.
We homeschooled our son to graduate 3 years earlier than his peers, and he
did so in the top 1/2% in the state.

I don't know what the fascination is with *graduating early.* It's no
guarantee that a student won't burn out.

Burn out on *learning*?
How?
Its a life long journey, you know.

You obviously haven't met some of the child prodigies I know.

It's not a matter of burning out on *learning* necessarily, but of
burning out on pushing oneself to graduate or to get a degree
or whatever else the ultimate *goal* is.

Example here. My dd has a friend who was a computer nerd
early. He was programming for HP as a freshman in HS. He
played chess, did all the AP math and science he could get,
went to Northwestern for math courses after finishing his two
AP calculus courses by sophomore year. Where is he now?
Well, he quit college after changing majors 4 times, I believe.
He runs a computer lab at a school, but his major interest is
in philosophy.

Then there are several other *early graduators* who have dropped
out of the *rat race* entirely and are living life working minimum
wage jobs because they prefer not to be stressed out in terms of
their work. They still learn things, but they do it on their own time
and without any interest in getting a degree out of it or making
money off it.

I just don't think that graduating early is a good goal. Sure, if you
want to move ahead do so. Most kids though are not at the same
level in all facets of learning so they may be better off going ahead
in only a few subjects of interest and staying with their age group
in other subjects. Or they may be better off entirely simply being
kids rather than rushing into adulthood.

It's very individual.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"Don" wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" wrote
He considers that anyone having to follow any rules imposed by someone
else (except their parents, I guess, since he approves of
homeschooling, even though such parents may impose more rules than do
any school) is "suffering".

You really don't know much about homeschooling do you Bob?

I know enough.

Its not about *rules*, it's about *learning*, for a lifetime.

It's about parental control-freaks, as often as not.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

"Don" wrote:
I have previously posted numerous refutations of Gatto's shoddy,
false, and undocumented assertions about the schools.

There ya go, Bob admits to the standard socialist smear job they are famous
for.

Since my postings contain criticisms that I developed myself, after
researching that his posted information was false, there is nothing
"standard" about what I wrote.

But you've been given a chance to freely and relevantly promote your
wife's books and website, and are failing to do so. This leads people
to believe you are a fraud.

Bob, Bob, Bob.
No one can be this silly, can they?
My wife doesn't need giggle your charity.

I don't give a **** about your wife; I wouldn't buy her book. It is
YOUR credibility that is at stake. You spout your ideological
bull****, but have nary a verifiable fact to support anything you
claim. Well the claim that your wife is selling a book could be at
least slightly supported by a URL.

Believe it or not, Bob, there is a great big world outside this newsgroup.
Turn the monitor off, Bob, take a walk outside, meet some REAL people for a
change.

I meet lots of real people. You aren't one of them; you are a phony.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

In article et, Don says...

"Banty" wrote
Don says...
"Banty" wrote
Ah - then you have cites. Please let us know where you may have any
underpinnings to your rantings here.

What books have you published?

Google is your friend, use it.
Start with the word: homeschooling

If you think you can handle it, Google: John Gatto

Are you "John Gatto"? Yes or no.

No.
Did you google him?



You said you had written books and your wife had homeschooling websites.
I asked for cites.
You said "John Gatto"
I asked if you were him.
You said "no".

So we're back to those books supposedly you (no, not John Gatto) have written.

Cites to your book, please.

Banty

Don wrote:

"toto" wrote
"Don" wrote:
Here's the game I play, Dragonlady.
We homeschooled our son to graduate 3 years earlier than his peers, and he
did so in the top 1/2% in the state.

I don't know what the fascination is with *graduating early.* It's no
guarantee that a student won't burn out.

Burn out on *learning*?
How?
Its a life long journey, you know.
------------------------
One you abandoned early on.
Steve

Don wrote:

"dragonlady" wrote
I'm referring to the game you are playing on this thread.

I'm talking about the serious nature to your commitment to punishing
children, perhaps for the rest of their lives, by requiring them to be
trapped in the public prisons jokingly called schools.
---------------------
You're a delusional posturing liar.
Steve

Don wrote:

"toto" wrote
"Don" wrote:
Here's the game I play, Dragonlady.
We homeschooled our son to graduate 3 years earlier than his peers, and
he did so in the top 1/2% in the state.

I don't know what the fascination is with *graduating early.* It's no
guarantee that a student won't burn out.

Burn out on *learning*?
How?
Its a life long journey, you know.

Burning out on learning and burning out on school are different things. And
it's easy to burn out on school.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Bob LeChevalier" wrote in message
...
"Don" wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" wrote
He considers that anyone having to follow any rules imposed by someone
else (except their parents, I guess, since he approves of
homeschooling, even though such parents may impose more rules than do
any school) is "suffering".

You really don't know much about homeschooling do you Bob?

I know enough.

Bob claims to *know* enough about Homeschooling....

Its not about *rules*, it's about *learning*, for a lifetime.

It's about parental control-freaks, as often as not.

.....and to prove it he points to the governmental public school control
freaks that control him too.

Bob, turn off the TEEVEE and get out in the real world and see whats going
on.

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 May 2005 04:48:23 GMT, "Don"
wrote:

"toto" wrote
"Don" wrote:
Here's the game I play, Dragonlady.
We homeschooled our son to graduate 3 years earlier than his peers, and
he
did so in the top 1/2% in the state.

I don't know what the fascination is with *graduating early.* It's no
guarantee that a student won't burn out.

Burn out on *learning*?
How?
Its a life long journey, you know.

You obviously haven't met some of the child prodigies I know.

It's not a matter of burning out on *learning* necessarily, but of
burning out on pushing oneself to graduate or to get a degree
or whatever else the ultimate *goal* is.

Example here. My dd has a friend who was a computer nerd
early. He was programming for HP as a freshman in HS. He
played chess, did all the AP math and science he could get,
went to Northwestern for math courses after finishing his two
AP calculus courses by sophomore year. Where is he now?
Well, he quit college after changing majors 4 times, I believe.
He runs a computer lab at a school, but his major interest is
in philosophy.

Then there are several other *early graduators* who have dropped
out of the *rat race* entirely and are living life working minimum
wage jobs because they prefer not to be stressed out in terms of
their work. They still learn things, but they do it on their own time
and without any interest in getting a degree out of it or making
money off it.

I just don't think that graduating early is a good goal. Sure, if you
want to move ahead do so. Most kids though are not at the same
level in all facets of learning so they may be better off going ahead
in only a few subjects of interest and staying with their age group
in other subjects. Or they may be better off entirely simply being
kids rather than rushing into adulthood.

****************
It's very individual.
****************

And for that you deserve a BIG Atta-Gurl, Dorothy.
Now, lets move one step ahead.
How does the public prison address the individual in each student?

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
Don wrote:

"toto" wrote
"Don" wrote:
Here's the game I play, Dragonlady.
We homeschooled our son to graduate 3 years earlier than his peers, and
he
did so in the top 1/2% in the state.

I don't know what the fascination is with *graduating early.* It's no
guarantee that a student won't burn out.

Burn out on *learning*?
How?
Its a life long journey, you know.
------------------------
One you abandoned early on.

You don't even know what we're talking about, do you Steve?

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article et, Don
says...

"Banty" wrote
Don says...
"Banty" wrote
Ah - then you have cites. Please let us know where you may have any
underpinnings to your rantings here.

What books have you published?

Google is your friend, use it.
Start with the word: homeschooling

If you think you can handle it, Google: John Gatto

Are you "John Gatto"? Yes or no.

No.
Did you google him?



You said you had written books and your wife had homeschooling websites.
I asked for cites.
You said "John Gatto"
I asked if you were him.
You said "no".

So we're back to those books supposedly you (no, not John Gatto) have
written.

Cites to your book, please.

I never said I wrote a book and I'm wondering why you are claiming I did.

"Bob LeChevalier" wrote
I don't give a **** about your wife;

Calm down Bob, before you pop a valve.

I wouldn't buy her book.

Ok, just remember that.

It is YOUR credibility that is at stake.

No Bob, my credibility is not reliant upon little angry men in Usenet.

You spout your ideological
bull****, but have nary a verifiable fact to support anything you
claim.

The facts are out there, Bob, it is up to you whether you want to see them.

Well the claim that your wife is selling a book could be at
least slightly supported by a URL.

Why, so that you won't buy it?
(remember what you said above?)

You have been convinced, Bob, by the mass media that Homeschooling is BAD
and public schooling is GOOD and no amount of FACTS will ever change your
mind. You eagerly gulped the blue pill.

Believe it or not, Bob, there is a great big world outside this newsgroup.
Turn the monitor off, Bob, take a walk outside, meet some REAL people for
a
change.

I meet lots of real people. You aren't one of them; you are a phony.

Your own words betray you, Bob.
You gain your knowledge of the world around you through your addiction to
TEEVEE.
Talk about phony.....

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
Don wrote:

"dragonlady" wrote
I'm referring to the game you are playing on this thread.

I'm talking about the serious nature to your commitment to punishing
children, perhaps for the rest of their lives, by requiring them to be
trapped in the public prisons jokingly called schools.
---------------------
You're a delusional posturing liar.
Steve

What, no mention of tax stealing, Steve?

Lets look at the record:
You've replied to 7 of my posts and in everyone of them you whined, stamped
your feet and pouted.
What do you have to say for yourself, Steve?

On Sun, 29 May 2005 22:00:01 GMT, "Don"
wrote:

I never said I wrote a book and I'm wondering why you are claiming I did.

You claimed your wife wrote one.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"Don" wrote:
Bob, turn off the TEEVEE and get out in the real world and see whats going
on.

I don't watch "TEEVEE".

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org