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Do you support educational vouchers in schools?
"Bob Coleslaw" wrote in
: Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? vouchers are a really bad idea. i do NOT want my tax dollars used to fund any type of private school, especially not any flavor of parochial school. i have no issues with private schools, my kid attends one, but i want my taxes to fix the public schools for the kids who can't go to private school for whatever reason. vouchers may help the elite, but they'll hurt the kids who need better schools the most. lee |
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Bob Coleslaw wrote: Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? On this question, I have no problems. The public schools, as they are run, are hopeless. The idea that children should be with their age groups, instead of being taught to the best of their abilities, whatever they may be, is antithetic to real learning. Even the idea of a child being in a "grade" needs to be scrapped. Also, most of the teachers can no longer teach concepts. One does not learn to understand concepts by memorization and other rote material. The not too strong mathematics courses of most of a century ago have been scrapped in favor of teaching how to get answers where the questions are not even known, instead of incorporating the conceptual advances of the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. Attempts to teach the concepts to teachers have been largely unsuccessful; they know too much that ain't so. At this time, we do not have a good idea how to teach well, so we will need to have lack of control. There are now very few academic private schools. Most will continue to use the public schools while we find out how to do even a fair job of teaching, and I suspect we will end up with mainly electronic schools, not computer programs. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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enigma wrote: "Bob Coleslaw" wrote in : Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? vouchers are a really bad idea. i do NOT want my tax dollars used to fund any type of private school, especially not any flavor of parochial school. i have no issues with private schools, my kid attends one, but i want my taxes to fix the public schools for the kids who can't go to private school for whatever reason. vouchers may help the elite, but they'll hurt the kids who need better schools the most. lee At this time, NO student who is capable of getting a good degree in mathematics or science or engineering or agriculture or economics is getting even a fair high school education corresponding to his abilities. The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers". -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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enigma wrote: *"Bob Coleslaw" wrote in : * * Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so * parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use * that money to fix up the public schools? * * vouchers are a really bad idea. i do NOT want my tax dollars *used to fund any type of private school, especially not any *flavor of parochial school. * i have no issues with private schools, my kid attends one, *but i want my taxes to fix the public schools for the kids who *can't go to private school for whatever reason. As the parent of a private school kid (and ultimately, I expect, three private school kids) I completely agree. I don't want to take away my support of the public school system. -- Hillary Israeli, VMD Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read." --Groucho Marx |
In article , enigma says...
The reason you crossposted to rec.woodworking is......?? Banty |
hey...why are you posting on rec woodworking?....perhaps you might need
some higher education so you will know how to post correctly |
you might think that folks who knows so much about the state of education
would also know how to set their computers up so as to not cross post their crap all over USENET... "Herman Rubin" wrote in message ... In article , Bob Coleslaw wrote: Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? On this question, I have no problems. The public schools, as they are run, are hopeless. The idea that children should be with their age groups, instead of being taught to the best of their abilities, whatever they may be, is antithetic to real learning. Even the idea of a child being in a "grade" needs to be scrapped. Also, most of the teachers can no longer teach concepts. One does not learn to understand concepts by memorization and other rote material. The not too strong mathematics courses of most of a century ago have been scrapped in favor of teaching how to get answers where the questions are not even known, instead of incorporating the conceptual advances of the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. Attempts to teach the concepts to teachers have been largely unsuccessful; they know too much that ain't so. At this time, we do not have a good idea how to teach well, so we will need to have lack of control. There are now very few academic private schools. Most will continue to use the public schools while we find out how to do even a fair job of teaching, and I suspect we will end up with mainly electronic schools, not computer programs. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers". That's an issue that needs to be addressed to the local school board who has control over the students. -- Rumpty Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Herman Rubin" wrote in message ... In article , enigma wrote: "Bob Coleslaw" wrote in : Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? vouchers are a really bad idea. i do NOT want my tax dollars used to fund any type of private school, especially not any flavor of parochial school. i have no issues with private schools, my kid attends one, but i want my taxes to fix the public schools for the kids who can't go to private school for whatever reason. vouchers may help the elite, but they'll hurt the kids who need better schools the most. lee At this time, NO student who is capable of getting a good degree in mathematics or science or engineering or agriculture or economics is getting even a fair high school education corresponding to his abilities. The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers". -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
my question is who is this wank? and what is he smoking, and why is he doing
it on the wood form? John Emmons wrote: you might think that folks who knows so much about the state of education would also know how to set their computers up so as to not cross post their crap all over USENET... "Herman Rubin" wrote in message ... In article , Bob Coleslaw wrote: Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? On this question, I have no problems. The public schools, as they are run, are hopeless. The idea that children should be with their age groups, instead of being taught to the best of their abilities, whatever they may be, is antithetic to real learning. Even the idea of a child being in a "grade" needs to be scrapped. Also, most of the teachers can no longer teach concepts. One does not learn to understand concepts by memorization and other rote material. The not too strong mathematics courses of most of a century ago have been scrapped in favor of teaching how to get answers where the questions are not even known, instead of incorporating the conceptual advances of the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. Attempts to teach the concepts to teachers have been largely unsuccessful; they know too much that ain't so. At this time, we do not have a good idea how to teach well, so we will need to have lack of control. There are now very few academic private schools. Most will continue to use the public schools while we find out how to do even a fair job of teaching, and I suspect we will end up with mainly electronic schools, not computer programs. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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Jill wrote: (Hillary Israeli) wrote in : * * As the parent of a private school kid (and ultimately, I expect, * three private school kids) I completely agree. I don't want to * take away my support of the public school system. * * *Don't forget that vouchers will kill the private schools by forcing too *many unqualified minority kids into their classrooms. Just like *"bussing" in the '70s. Huh? First of all, I don't believe bussing killed public schools or private schools or anything at all (i'm not sure what you're trying to say bussing did, actually). Second, vouchers will not kill private schools by forcing anyone anywhere. Just because a voucher makes someone able to pay the tuition, that does not make the holder of the voucher otherwise eligible to attend the school. Most of the private schools I looked at have other types of requirements as well - the kid has to have a certain IQ and/or test score on some kind of screening test, and has to pass interviews or observations, or whatever. -- Hillary Israeli, VMD Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read." --Groucho Marx |
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wrote in message ups.com... hey...why are you posting on rec woodworking?....perhaps you might need some higher education so you will know how to post correctly Rec.woodworking? Hi Tim! |
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On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:13:52 +0000 (UTC), "Bob Coleslaw"
wrote: Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? Bob Coleslaw The latter. |
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In article , Rumpty wrote:
The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers". That's an issue that needs to be addressed to the local school board who has control over the students. The local school board has much less control than most seem to think. Its members are "extra time", which means that they are full-time otherwise, and they have all their meetings taken up with the current administration of the schools. Matters such as parking, allocation of the budget, and others like that are all they can manage. In addition, few of the school administrators in the country are at all sympathetic to teaching subject matter instead of their theories of socializing, and not too many of the teachers understand their subjects. .................. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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Hillary Israeli wrote: In , Jill wrote: (Hillary Israeli) wrote in : * As the parent of a private school kid (and ultimately, I expect, * three private school kids) I completely agree. I don't want to * take away my support of the public school system. *Don't forget that vouchers will kill the private schools by forcing too *many unqualified minority kids into their classrooms. Just like *"bussing" in the '70s. Huh? First of all, I don't believe bussing killed public schools or private schools or anything at all (i'm not sure what you're trying to say bussing did, actually). Second, vouchers will not kill private schools by forcing anyone anywhere. Just because a voucher makes someone able to pay the tuition, that does not make the holder of the voucher otherwise eligible to attend the school. Most of the private schools I looked at have other types of requirements as well - the kid has to have a certain IQ and/or test score on some kind of screening test, and has to pass interviews or observations, or whatever. We have to watch out for the hyperegalitarians trying to block this. I have read that there is a voucher program for handicapped children in Florida, but a student going to an academic school could not use this unless the school would take all children with that handicap, no matter how weak their mentalities were. And don't downplay the minority quota problem. Indianapolis has a magnet school with academic requirements. A girl was turned down because this would have meant too small a proportion of minority students; if there was a minority student who qualified and wanted to attend, they could both have been admitted. The educationists and hyperegalitarians cannot admit that there is a large range of mental abilities, and even if they changed now, the public schools could not do what is needed in a generation, alas. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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toto wrote: On 30 Mar 2005 11:21:57 -0500, (Herman Rubin) wrote: In article , Bob Coleslaw wrote: Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? On this question, I have no problems. The public schools, as they are run, are hopeless. The idea that children should be with their age groups, instead of being taught to the best of their abilities, whatever they may be, is antithetic to real learning. Even the idea of a child being in a "grade" needs to be scrapped. And what private schools exist where children are not also grouped with their peers, Herman? There are a few, but not very many. Skipping grades is not encouraged in most private schools any more than it is in public schools and aside from the higher grades (high school, mostly), there are no more independent study classes in those academic private schools than there are in the public schools my own children attended. There are now few academic private schools. What is needed is not just independent study classes, although this is what I did outside of class, and what my son essentially did in mathematics below the strong college classes, which he audited when he was in elementary school. He was home taught, which was mostly self-study with some guidance. I do not recall exactly when, but we have had one posting by a school which did not have students by grades, let alone by age. If this is expected, I doubt it will be that much of a problem. Also, most of the teachers can no longer teach concepts. One does not learn to understand concepts by memorization and other rote material. The not too strong mathematics courses of most of a century ago have been scrapped in favor of teaching how to get answers where the questions are not even known, instead of incorporating the conceptual advances of the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. Attempts to teach the concepts to teachers have been largely unsuccessful; they know too much that ain't so. This is a generalization you continually make with *no* proof that it is true other than your assertion that you have had some few education majors in your classes whom *you* could not teach concepts. There is much more than that. I am not exaggerating about the "new math" problems; they were well discussed in the mathematics meetings of the time. I was present, but not involved, in an attempt to teach better than average high school teachers of mathematics the basic abstract courses; these are what my son audited. One of my colleagues claimed that at most 10% of them could learn the material under any circumstances. My colleagues here have the same complaints about the prospective teachers; they were not at all surprised with what happened in my class. BTW, at this time, FEW who get BA's in mathematics have an opportunity to take these basic abstract courses. It is hard to find out what they have, and they have great difficulty in overcoming this, if they can. My late wife taught a lot of prospective teachers, and was often quite ill after the struggles to get them to understand. She was a popular teacher, as well as someone who worked in the foundations of mathematics. At this time, we do not have a good idea how to teach well, so we will need to have lack of control. There are now very few academic private schools. Most will continue to use the public schools while we find out how to do even a fair job of teaching, and I suspect we will end up with mainly electronic schools, not computer programs. We might, I suppose end up with at least some electronic schools and distance learning. For many kids this will *not* be a sufficient way of educating them, however. Humans need contact with real live adults,and with their peers in education as much as in other areas of their lives. If you interpret "peers" as intellectual peers, I can agree. My son definitely profited from the contact with college students in those abstract undergraduate courses, and subsequently with graduate students in mathematics. I do not know how effective electronic classes will be; by those I mean regular classes, with the class run electronically, not by physical presence. But they will be at least as good as keeping the students dumbed down. Home schooled students do not seem to have that great a problem in later interactions. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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wrote: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:13:52 +0000 (UTC), "Bob Coleslaw" wrote: Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? Bob Coleslaw The latter. As I have stated often, if you gave me an unlimited amount of money and an unlimited amount of power, I could not fix up the public schools in less than a generation. This is a time when we do not need a central plan. The main problem of the public schools is the idea that all children should learn essentially the same; this was introduced about 70 years ago, and is now institutionalized. Most parents who do not have gifted children would want anything else, and we have had cases of parents objecting to their children not getting in honors classes, often with disastrous results. Unless we can make it very expensive for teachers and administrators to ever hold a child back because of age, and make "No child left behind" to mean "no child left behind what that child can accomplish", there is no hope for the public schools. The differences in mental abilities dwarfs those in physical abilities. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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Herman Rubin wrote: In article , toto wrote: On 30 Mar 2005 11:21:57 -0500, (Herman Rubin) wrote: I would like to correct a misconception in my posting. .................... There are now few academic private schools. What is needed is not just independent study classes, although this is what I did outside of class, and what my son essentially did in mathematics below the strong college classes, which he audited when he was in elementary school. He was home taught, which was mostly self-study with some guidance. This home teaching was in algebra and logic, and in science, after he was taught to read. He was not home taught in the other subjects. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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In article ,
toto wrote: On 31 Mar 2005 14:35:44 -0500, (Herman Rubin) wrote: Unless we can make it very expensive for teachers and administrators to ever hold a child back because of age, and make "No child left behind" to mean "no child left behind what that child can accomplish", there is no hope for the public schools. The differences in mental abilities dwarfs those in physical abilities. I want you to pay damages to all those graduate students who failed to learn anything in your classes, Herman. Converted to the public school model, you would have teachers pay damages to those whose mental abilities were not up to being able to learn, or who for some other reason, did not learn. A teacher can only supply the opportunity and SOME help, not guarantee learning, as you are hinting. I was criticizing the teachers who put obstacles in the path of learning, not those who did not succeed with all. I always expect the background with little review, and will not use anything not supposed for the course without careful explanation. And I will not leave anything out because of "lack of time". As for holding a student back, I have never done that. Nor have I not allowed a student to take a course because of not having the formal prerequisites, although I have advised students, after careful discussion, that I thought they were not sufficiently advanced for the course. Read what I was saying. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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toto wrote: On 31 Mar 2005 13:44:32 -0500, (Herman Rubin) wrote: In article , Rumpty wrote: The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers". That's an issue that needs to be addressed to the local school board who has control over the students. The local school board has much less control than most seem to think. Its members are "extra time", which means that they are full-time otherwise, and they have all their meetings taken up with the current administration of the schools. Matters such as parking, allocation of the budget, and others like that are all they can manage. In general the school board hires the principals and administrators where I come from. Thus they have plenty of control if they want it. You are correct. But see the next paragraph to see the problems there. In addition, few of the school administrators in the country are at all sympathetic to teaching subject matter instead of their theories of socializing, and not too many of the teachers understand their subjects. .................. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
Ah well, here it goes..
Homeschooling is the answer. Public schooling consumes $5K to $10K per student per year. Homeschool families can do a much better job with less than 10% of that. Want a HUGE TAX BREAK?. Encourage home schooling! The side effects will be a better educated population, more mature young people, responsible parents, and a society that values the family. "Outsourcing" the education of children and young adults is a BAD IDEA. What are the arguments against? Can't afford it? One can homeshool for a few hundered dollars a year, if that; probably nothing if you are resourceful. Can't do it; ain't smart enough? Learning takes motivation. Get some. Be resourceful. Ask a friend or neighbor to educate you on your weaker subjects. Teach the kid to read, and they can virtually education themselves. Teach yourself something. You might find out you have a hidden talent your public schooling never tapped. Not enough time? What are you wasting your time on? TV? Both parents working? Too greedy to give up your time for the future of your children? A kid goes to school for what.. 6 hours or so. 2 of that is recess and lunch, and this n' that. So maybe 4 hours in the classroom. Probably half of that is wasted away on disciplinary issues, 30:1 teacher ratios, etc. You can do better. Live in a state that basically forbids homeshooling? Move. Your child will suffer socially? Yeah, we live in a society that lacks so much opportunity to interact. Do you know your neighbors? Invite them to dinner. How about your brother or sister? Or parents? Or maybe someone at Church, or community group? Make some friends and spend time with them. The school system and teachers are the experts? I want the best for my kid. What do they know about your kid? What kind of expert consistently runs overbudget and consistently produces a poorer and poorer product? That's not even the point. Whose responsibility is it to raise your child? Both parents have to work. Probably not. They may have to lower their standard of living. That's a poor choice of words. They'll be spending more time as a family, in essence much improving their standard of living. Single parent. How come? (There are some valid reasons) Your public schooling decayed your morals and you made some bad choices? Find support in your community. Be resourceful. Set a better example for your children. Leverage your family. Read the above statement in regards to "Not enough time". Ah.. this list can go on and on and on. You are either bubbling with enthusiasm or steaming with resentment. Take responsiblity for your emotions and actions. Then for your children. Or move to another country where the governemt will "take care of you". I hear Burma and North Korea are pretty good at that. |
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"lgb" wrote in message ... In article , says... Ah well, here it goes.. Homeschooling is the answer The side effects will be a better educated population, more mature young people, responsible parents, and a society that values the family. The side effects will be a population brainwashed to believe what their parents believe, regardless of facts. Most home schoolers are bible thumpers. Newspaper article today pointed out that John Dean supporters are better educated and less religious than the general population. That's certainly not the first time that there's been a negative correlation between education and religion. And that's what most of the home schoolers are trying to avoid :-). Well spoken. From your bigotry may we assume you were home schooled? |
In article , george@least says...
"lgb" wrote in message The side effects will be a population brainwashed to believe what their parents believe, regardless of facts. Most home schoolers are bible thumpers. Well spoken. From your bigotry may we assume you were home schooled? I'm bigoted? Because I don't believe in an adult version of Santa Claus? AFAIK, none of us cynical agnostics have blown up any abortion clinics, insisted on prolonging a poor womans possible suffering to advance their agenda, handled rattlesnakes to prove their faith, or prayed for WWIII on the grounds it'll bring on the second coming. And no, I don't believe the world was created 6000 years ago and fossils are just god's little joke - or was that satan's ploy? It's so hard to keep up with all the flat earth types :-). -- Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description |
Boy yeah, where we couldn't all be if we just didn't have parents.
No sense getting "brainwashed" by one's parents when we have factual newspapers and TV to rely on. On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:36:32 -0700, lgb wrote: In article , says... Ah well, here it goes.. Homeschooling is the answer The side effects will be a better educated population, more mature young people, responsible parents, and a society that values the family. The side effects will be a population brainwashed to believe what their parents believe, regardless of facts. Most home schoolers are bible thumpers. Newspaper article today pointed out that John Dean supporters are better educated and less religious than the general population. That's certainly not the first time that there's been a negative correlation between education and religion. And that's what most of the home schoolers are trying to avoid :-). |
"lgb" wrote in message ... In article , george@least says... "lgb" wrote in message The side effects will be a population brainwashed to believe what their parents believe, regardless of facts. Most home schoolers are bible thumpers. Well spoken. From your bigotry may we assume you were home schooled? I'm bigoted? Because I don't believe in an adult version of Santa Claus? No, you're bigoted because you stereotype and denigrate others. You're also insufferably ignorant, apparently, of their belief, and arrogant about yours. |
In article , george@least says...
"lgb" wrote in message I'm bigoted? Because I don't believe in an adult version of Santa Claus? No, you're bigoted because you stereotype and denigrate others. You're also insufferably ignorant, apparently, of their belief, and arrogant about yours. Wow! I guess I've been excommunicated by the new pope! -- Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description |
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"lgb" wrote in message .. . In article , george@least says... "lgb" wrote in message The side effects will be a population brainwashed to believe what their parents believe, regardless of facts. Most home schoolers are bible thumpers. Well spoken. From your bigotry may we assume you were home schooled? I'm bigoted? Because I don't believe in an adult version of Santa Claus? So instead, you believe that, unlike true logical thought, in which, "ex nihilo, nihil fit" -- "out of nothing, nothing comes" is a fundamental premise of logical reasoning and scientific inquiry, you substitute "out of nothing, everything came" in which, with no causative agent, the universe just exploded into being at 3:00 one Thursday afternoon? The statements you have made are in no way indicative of the comments of an agnostic, who acknowledges, "he just doesn't know", your comments are actually those of an athiest who vehemently denies the existence of a God or Supreme Being and strongly agitates for the suppression of expressions by those who do do hold religious faith. Thus your other comments about those who believe as you have never caused mayhem in the name of their religion is also belied -- as those subject to persecution under the Stalinists and the current religious believers being persecuted in China can attest. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety Army General Richard Cody +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |
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On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:48:50 -0700, lgb wrote:
In article , says... So instead, you believe that, unlike true logical thought, in which, "ex nihilo, nihil fit" -- "out of nothing, nothing comes" is a fundamental premise of logical reasoning and scientific inquiry, you substitute "out of nothing, everything came" in which, with no causative agent, the universe just exploded into being at 3:00 one Thursday afternoon? I find it strange that those who say something had to create the universe then turn around and postulate a "supreme being" that according to them, didn't need a creator. Seems like begging the question to me. Or, as Terry Pratchett put it "it's turtles, all the way down." What is begging the question is the problem inherent in attempting to postulate the physical laws of a universe that shows itself not to be eternal due to entropy and shows itself to have had a finite beginning. The laws of logic that apply to that scientific inquiry. Yet, in order to get that decaying, finite, universe, those laws of logic must be suspended for the creation of that universe, i.e, in order for modern cosmology to be correct, no cause nor causal agent was required for the initiation of the universe. No origin for the kernel that blew up is identified, no reason why something in stasis for eternity(-infinity) before the creation of the universe suddenly became unstable and blew up despite being stable for t = - infinity to 0. This is not logical, it violates the fundamental tenets of logic and scientific principles. One has to deal with the fact that the universe is not eternal (i.e. it had a beginning and an end can be predicted based upon observable phenomena). That doesn't leave a whole lot of logical choices. No, the concept of eternity is not an easy concept to get one's head around and our finite human minds are pretty much incapable of fully grasping what that really means. However, there is much more consistency to the postulate of an intelligent design than there is to an uncaused explosion followed by random, chaotic events as the origin of our universe and resulting cosmos. And no, I'm not an atheist, if for no other reason than a negative cannot be proved. For that matter, try understanding the terms "infinity" or "nothing" - you and I can quote the definition, but our brains are incapable of really grasping the reality. For example, our brains may understand the idea of atoms, but tend to give a big "Yeah, right" when told the toe they stubbed was mostly empty space :-). Athiesm is a theological term that applies to one who denies the existence of God or a Supreme being. It does not necessarily require that the person confessing athiesm prove that concept. Agnosticism is another theological term that applies to one who professes that he cannot tell one way or the other whether God or a supreme being exists. I do assume, based on the number of different religions present and past, that if there is a creator, or creators, that the odds are very slim that anyone on earth understands his/her/it's/they're requirements for salvation. Indeed, they can't even agree on the existence or nature of life after death. Most people base their religious beliefs on nothing more than the culture they grew up in. Not exactly the act of a (supposedly) intelligent species. Given that there are adherents to various religions in all cultures, there is evidence that many elements of various religions are a-cultural although some religions are more prevalent in some cultures vs. others. Basically, there are two religions, the first identifies that people have to *do* something to earn their salvation. That approach is true in all the world's religions save one. The requirements may differ among those religions, varying from the various escetics of the eastern mystic religions through the jihad-driven warriors of the Islamists, but they all identify *actions* that must be performed in order to be proven worthy. The only different religion is that of scriptural Christianity that indicates that there is nothing that humans can do to earn salvation, they can only appropriate that salvation by trusting that their savior has fulfilled of the requirements for salvation for them and appropriating that gift and promise of salvation as their own. All good works that result are then an expression of gratitude for what has been done for them rather than works that are required to exhibit worthiness for that gift. One could add that prior to the incarnation, the other religion that differed from the rest of the world's religions was orthodox judaism that again, appropriated its salvation through trust in the promise of a coming messiah. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety Army General Richard Cody +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |
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