Thanks for including the word "extremists" in that, Doug... I think
that's a key word in the argument....
From what I understand, the muslim religion abhors the type of killing
that terrorists do and that most of what folks like Bin Laden (sp?)
preach is actually against the real muslim religion..
mac Please remove splinters before emailing


Yeah...heh heh...if you only knew what the Q'uran involves in it's doctrine for
"real muslim religion"... those terrorists are doing what it says, as learning
from the Q'uran. Much of that doctrine adds up to the conclusions they come
to do in anti-human actions as justified in Islam, based on what that book says.
If one is a Christian or a Jew or an idol worshiper or a Buddhist then they are
"the enemy" and deserve to die. Just because the Q'uran says so... that is a part
of it.

I, therefore, am "the enemy" by the doctrine of the Q'uran and deserve to die,
because of what I believe in religiously that is "other than" the holy Q'uran.

This is while they pine away for the innocents and justification that the Jews
and Christians already have... the terrorist muslims are totaly full of it for what
they do, and possibly why they do it based upon how they interpret their book.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
http://www.e-sword.net/

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:34:43 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:


Thanks for including the word "extremists" in that, Doug... I think
that's a key word in the argument....
From what I understand, the muslim religion abhors the type of killing
that terrorists do and that most of what folks like Bin Laden (sp?)
preach is actually against the real muslim religion..
mac Please remove splinters before emailing


Yeah...heh heh...if you only knew what the Q'uran involves in it's doctrine for
"real muslim religion"... those terrorists are doing what it says, as learning
from the Q'uran.

Like hell!
The Koran has very specific prohibitions against 'terrorist' actions.
While it recognizes all non-believers as enemies of Islam, it imposes
limits on the methods which may be used to oppose, or fight, them.

For example:

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you,
and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who
exceed the limits.

or again:

[18.74] So they went on until, when they met a boy, he slew him.
(Musa) said: Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for
manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing.

Qur'an 2.190, 18.74
(Shakir Translation)

The most commonly quoted Koranic justification for killing
non-believers is in 2.191 "slay them wherever you find them." However
if you read the entire Surah (chapter) the context makes it clear that
this refers only to those who are actively in arms against Islam and
that excessive killing is forbidden.

Even more than the Bible the Koran is a very situational book. Much of
it deals with Mohammed's pronouncements on specific cases at specific
times and places. That means that, like the Bible, if you comb through
it you can find verses which seem to support all kinds of practices.
The Haidth (traditions) is even worse for that.

Unfortunately in the wake of 9/11 some people, mostly Christian
fundamentalists, have taken to searching out verses, Haidth and
incidents from Islamic history which give a preverse picture of Islam.

This is not to say that Islam is a religion of tolerance and brotherly
love. It is not, in general. Islam is a very complex phenomenon and it
speaks with many voices. However there is a general consensus within
Islam about what is an is not acceptable.

Osama bin Nutcase and his ilk are definitely well beyond the pale.

--RC
"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

You could compare what I am trying to say with the example of the crusaders
murdering people in the name of Christ, such as Musslims. It isn't God's
command anywhere in the new testament. Their reasoning was long deriven
of Christian precepts that had their beginnings in the Holy Bible. Simple as
that. One load of crap builds upon another, and on and on until principle and
the very basis of original truth is lost in mental delusion... then becoming fed
by political reasons... out of which comes murder of innocents basecd on
what they "think" is real religious purpose. So you can see that some exacting
things wind up not mattering too much. They still believe the way I'm talking
about.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
http://www.e-sword.net/

Okay (he sez, top-posting and following up on his own post)

If you want to see the mainstream Muslim attitude toward terrorism, go
to this site:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

This is the best summation of contemporary religious opinion, Koranic
scholarship and such I've found in one place. What's represented here
isn't the full spectrum of Islamic opinion, but it is most definitely
the opinion of the vast, overwhelming majority of the Muslim scholars
and community.

--RC


On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:21:31 GMT, wrote:

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:34:43 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:


Thanks for including the word "extremists" in that, Doug... I think
that's a key word in the argument....
From what I understand, the muslim religion abhors the type of killing
that terrorists do and that most of what folks like Bin Laden (sp?)
preach is actually against the real muslim religion..
mac Please remove splinters before emailing


Yeah...heh heh...if you only knew what the Q'uran involves in it's doctrine for
"real muslim religion"... those terrorists are doing what it says, as learning
from the Q'uran.

Like hell!
The Koran has very specific prohibitions against 'terrorist' actions.
While it recognizes all non-believers as enemies of Islam, it imposes
limits on the methods which may be used to oppose, or fight, them.

For example:

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you,
and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who
exceed the limits.

or again:

[18.74] So they went on until, when they met a boy, he slew him.
(Musa) said: Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for
manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing.

Qur'an 2.190, 18.74
(Shakir Translation)

The most commonly quoted Koranic justification for killing
non-believers is in 2.191 "slay them wherever you find them." However
if you read the entire Surah (chapter) the context makes it clear that
this refers only to those who are actively in arms against Islam and
that excessive killing is forbidden.

Even more than the Bible the Koran is a very situational book. Much of
it deals with Mohammed's pronouncements on specific cases at specific
times and places. That means that, like the Bible, if you comb through
it you can find verses which seem to support all kinds of practices.
The Haidth (traditions) is even worse for that.

Unfortunately in the wake of 9/11 some people, mostly Christian
fundamentalists, have taken to searching out verses, Haidth and
incidents from Islamic history which give a preverse picture of Islam.

This is not to say that Islam is a religion of tolerance and brotherly
love. It is not, in general. Islam is a very complex phenomenon and it
speaks with many voices. However there is a general consensus within
Islam about what is an is not acceptable.

Osama bin Nutcase and his ilk are definitely well beyond the pale.

--RC
"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

This is not the proper forum for this.

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:07:46 -0500, tony stramella wrote:
This is not the proper forum for this.

For what, Tony? Lots of posts in this thread, which one are you
answering?

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:07:46 -0500, (tony
stramella) wrote:

This is not the proper forum for this.


then don't read it...
if you haven't figured it out yet, OT means Off Topic...






mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:07:46 -0500, (tony
stramella) wrote:

This is not the proper forum for this.


then don't read it...
if you haven't figured it out yet, OT means Off Topic...


Are you one of those assholes who thinks it's OK to
park in the fire lane so long as you put your flashers on?

--

FF

On 2 Feb 2005 12:30:18 -0800, wrote:

mac davis wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:07:46 -0500, (tony
stramella) wrote:

This is not the proper forum for this.


then don't read it...
if you haven't figured it out yet, OT means Off Topic...


Are you one of those assholes who thinks it's OK to
park in the fire lane so long as you put your flashers on?

Easy fix to that:
http://www.hagerty.com/about_news_ar...?PR=03/12/2001

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:07:46 -0500, (tony
stramella) wrote:

This is not the proper forum for this.



So killfile us and be done with it.

--RC


"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

This is while they pine away for the innocents and justification that the
Jews
and Christians already have... the terrorist muslims are totaly full of it
for what
they do, and possibly why they do it based upon how they interpret their
book.

Have you ever entertained the possibility that Western foreign policy
towards the middle east might have more to do with the root causes of
terrorism than an interpretation of a religious text? Or have you fallen for
the "they hate our freedoms" Bushspeak?

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:45:31 -0800, "mp" wrote:

This is while they pine away for the innocents and justification that the
Jews
and Christians already have... the terrorist muslims are totaly full of it
for what
they do, and possibly why they do it based upon how they interpret their
book.

Have you ever entertained the possibility that Western foreign policy
towards the middle east might have more to do with the root causes of
terrorism than an interpretation of a religious text?

Only if he's severely misled.


Or have you fallen for the "they hate our freedoms" Bushspeak?

Some of the Osama bin Fruitcake school most definitely hate us for our
freedoms and they're not shy about saying so.

--RC



"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

Some of the Osama bin Fruitcake school most definitely hate us for our
freedoms and they're not shy about saying so.


I don't "fall" for any generalized propaganda slash commentary from anyone.
With the Musslim terrorists I think it is envy, pure and simple. There is not
even any real enough reason to go killing innocent people, unless it is a system
of reasoning that is deriven of ENVY. Our country and freedoms are superior
to theirs. Here (USA) you can get FAT living in the streets eating at missions
for crap's sakes. It's awesome and beautiful here. What they have is constant
theocrasy dominating them with religious guilt, therefore oppression and
therefore madness, it just doesn't work. This country is well designed. No
wonder they go blood crazy.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
http://www.e-sword.net/

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:57:22 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:


Some of the Osama bin Fruitcake school most definitely hate us for our
freedoms and they're not shy about saying so.


I don't "fall" for any generalized propaganda slash commentary from anyone.

As well you should not. Especially where Islam is concerned.

One of the things most people don't appreciate about Islam is just how
big that tent really is. (Jokes about camels pushing their noses in
will be ruthlessly ignored.) It's very hard to paint an accurate
picture.

With the Musslim terrorists I think it is envy, pure and simple.

There's envy all right, but it is neither pure nor simple.
Basically the problem for the Muslim extremists, terrorists or not, is
that Arab Islam has not been able to adapt successfully to the modern
world. In fact that's a problem for most of the Islamic world.

They have been wrestling with the problem for more than 150 years and
the result in some quarters is frustration, rage, a sense of impotence
and a burning desire to strike out at the rest of the world.


There is not even any real enough reason to go killing innocent people, unless it is a system
of reasoning that is deriven of ENVY. Our country and freedoms are superior
to theirs. Here (USA) you can get FAT living in the streets eating at missions
for crap's sakes. It's awesome and beautiful here. What they have is constant
theocrasy dominating them with religious guilt, therefore oppression and
therefore madness, it just doesn't work. This country is well designed. No
wonder they go blood crazy.

Well, a very few of them do anyway.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

AAvK wrote:


Yeah...heh heh...if you only knew what the Q'uran involves in it's doctrine for
"real muslim religion"... those terrorists are doing what it says, as learning
from the Q'uran. Much of that doctrine adds up to the conclusions they come
to do in anti-human actions as justified in Islam, based on what that book says.
If one is a Christian or a Jew or an idol worshiper or a Buddhist then they are
"the enemy" and deserve to die. Just because the Q'uran says so... that is a part
of it.


I invite you to read the Qu'ran, and study it's meaning. You might be
surprised, and you would surely be better informed.