"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
om...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

Yeah, true, but even if the cost to produce them was $10 - and I highly
doubt it's more than about $3, that kind of markup would be way over
what's
typical for profitability.
--

-Mike-


Typical selling price for items sold through the retail distribution
system
have selling prices about 4X the cost of material. Next time you chug a
beer, drink a store bought cup of coffee, replace a printer ink cartridge,
apply a gallon of paint, see if you can justify your statement in light of
the cost of raw material.

That markup seems pretty high Edwin. There is more than just the cost of
raw material to be considered. There's the cost of manufacturing and
potentially middle- costs. That would make the markup on the "produce" less
than the 4X for raw materials. The poster we both replied to and the
comment we were both commenting on was a finished goods cost of $10.
--

-Mike-

"John" wrote in message
...
Yes, often the cost of materials AND labor is bumped 50 -100% going to
the wholesaler, who then bumps it again 100%, and then the retailer
bumps it 100% again.


I imagine every distributor and every retailer in the world would love to
work under the margin scheme you suggest. The reality is far from those
types of markups though.


--

-Mike-

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:23:05 -0500, Jay Pique wrote:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&ccurrenc y=2&SID=

or

http://tinyurl.com/5ed72


Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
be worth it?

JP

If you want 2 pair, they are about 20% cheaper at McFeelys:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/subcat.asp?subcat=18.5.1

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

That markup seems pretty high Edwin. There is more than just the cost of
raw material to be considered. There's the cost of manufacturing and
potentially middle- costs. That would make the markup on the "produce"
less
than the 4X for raw materials. The poster we both replied to and the
comment we were both commenting on was a finished goods cost of $10.

The finished cost of $10 is from someone that intends on making an
equivalent himself; nothing to do with actual cost. He has not responded
yet to my offer to buy them at that price and probably will not. The cost of
these brackets is less than the $10 he mentioned.

I'm basing my opinion on what I see and what I have experienced. Take a
look at the parts in question. Now look at the operations to make them.
Shear a blank, punch press, brake, polish, check tolerances, package, label,
warehouse, ship, bill. Now the seller orders them, receives, warehouses,
prints a catalog, advertises, receives orders, warehouses, picks order,
packs, ships, bills. We've not even considered insurance, operating costs,
utilities, employee benefits, taxes, and finally some profit.

I'm basing my opinion (and we both only have opinions) on my experience in
doing pricing of manufactured items in both the retail and industrial
markets. If you have experience with this, can tell me the steps of
manufacturing and associated cost, travel through the supply chain, I'll
willing to listen and perhaps change my opinion.

Not related to just this item:
Funny how many people complain about the perceived high cost of an item and
also complain that industry and retail don't pay their employees enough of a
wage to make a living. The retailer is gouging us and making a fortune and
at the same time retailers are filing for bankruptcy and their employees are
complaining they don't get paid enough and have poor benefits. I do know
that I sure don't have the answers.

A premium perhaps Edwin, but $25.00 is far past premium. That's
ridiculous.
There's just no material cost there and there's nothing spectacular about
getting them square. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I sure
wouldn't put up that money for something that simple. But then again,
that's me.

The material costs are indeed minimal but don't forget that these items are
not just stamped aluminum. The faces are milled square. Think you could make
them to the same level of accuracy and make a profit at $12.50 per item? And
out of that $12.50 comes labour, tooling, business overhead, distribution,
and retail profits.

I can them COD if you like @ 10.00 a pair....Brian
You are correct about the marketing with the printing and all that but the
raw product can be made for that though.......Brian

Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 5:19pm (Guess=A0who) says:
Here's one source that might help you: snip

Thanks, but I'm aware of that. You're missing it too. I just
don't believe that EVERY weld has to be stress relieved; and, the
impression I get, he does.



JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- =A0Dale Carnegie

Those brackets are not welded anyway.....Brian

"mp" wrote in message
...
A premium perhaps Edwin, but $25.00 is far past premium. That's
ridiculous.
There's just no material cost there and there's nothing spectacular
about
getting them square. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I sure
wouldn't put up that money for something that simple. But then again,
that's me.

The material costs are indeed minimal but don't forget that these items
are
not just stamped aluminum. The faces are milled square. Think you could
make
them to the same level of accuracy and make a profit at $12.50 per item?
And
out of that $12.50 comes labour, tooling, business overhead, distribution,
and retail profits.



Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that elaborate.
The accuracy they would have you believe is so critical is really rather
trivial for any shop. One would wonder though, why they would go to the
extent of milling when other, more economical but equally effective methods
exist.
--

-Mike-

Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that
elaborate.

Still, someone has to buy the tooling and set it up, and the production run
would be limited as these are not high volume products. Do you think $12.50
per piece at the retail level is unreasonable? Don't forget these are made
in the US, not in China or some other third world country.

"J T" wrote in message
...
Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 10:30pm (EST-3) (Roger Shoaf)
says:
I think you would be better off machining it after you welded it. The
technique you describe is likely to induce warp in the piece and while
it may be possible to weld with a technique to reduce the warpage, I
doubt you could reasonably expect any technique to give you zero.

Well, I'm not about to got into a buchch of "how I'd do it", and
variables include type of joining used, angle iron thickness, etc..
But, yeah, I expect I could do it without warping, and no machining. Not
in 30 seconds, but doable close enuogh to zero as to not matter - then
you paint it yellow. I figure most people here could, after a bit of
practice. Then there's always the 10% that couldn't do it with a robot
welder.

But, I doubt I'd do it, I'd probably just use plywood, as described
by someone else. Faster, easier, cheaper, just as accurate.

I suppose it comes down to a matter of accuracy. If I was going to make a
reference standard I would not like to have an out of square error of .020
over a six inches, but others might think that error to be too trivial to
worry about.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"mp" wrote in message
...
Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that
elaborate.

Still, someone has to buy the tooling and set it up, and the production
run
would be limited as these are not high volume products. Do you think
$12.50
per piece at the retail level is unreasonable? Don't forget these are made
in the US, not in China or some other third world country.



Well, my personal opinion is that they are hardly worth anything - but that
is nothing more than a personal opinion. That opinion is based on the
commonplace nature of alternate solutions which serve the purpose nicely.
To me it just simply looks like a solution looking for a problem. I guess,
to fairly answer your question, I would not consider the value they bring to
be more than a $2.00 proposition. But again - that's just my opinion.
--

-Mike-

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


The simple fact is that profits generally only come through
providing what people want.

....or, moreso, convincing them that this is what they want.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.com...


I'm basing my opinion on what I see and what I have experienced. Take a
look at the parts in question. Now look at the operations to make them.
Shear a blank, punch press, brake, polish, check tolerances, package,
label,
warehouse, ship, bill. Now the seller orders them, receives, warehouses,
prints a catalog, advertises, receives orders, warehouses, picks order,
packs, ships, bills. We've not even considered insurance, operating costs,
utilities, employee benefits, taxes, and finally some profit.

I'm basing my opinion (and we both only have opinions) on my experience in
doing pricing of manufactured items in both the retail and industrial
markets. If you have experience with this, can tell me the steps of
manufacturing and associated cost, travel through the supply chain, I'll
willing to listen and perhaps change my opinion.

Likewise I base my comments on certain experiences. Mine might not totally
parallel yours but I do have a great deal of experience in goods in the
supply chain and the incremental markups. I have never seen the types of
markups that have been spoken about here as a normal part of the supply
chain.

I have some experience with the gems industry. there markups of 100%
to 500% are not uncommon, at *each* level of distribution. OTOH,
inventory is very expensive and often moves slowly.




What I have seen and in this point we might be closer to agreeing
more completely, is that specialty shops will tend to price higher simply
because of what the market will bear rather than because of costs incurred
throughout the supply chain.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:09:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"mp" wrote in message
...
A premium perhaps Edwin, but $25.00 is far past premium. That's
ridiculous.
There's just no material cost there and there's nothing spectacular
about
getting them square. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I sure
wouldn't put up that money for something that simple. But then again,
that's me.

The material costs are indeed minimal but don't forget that these items
are
not just stamped aluminum. The faces are milled square. Think you could
make
them to the same level of accuracy and make a profit at $12.50 per item?
And
out of that $12.50 comes labour, tooling, business overhead, distribution,
and retail profits.



Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that elaborate.
The accuracy they would have you believe is so critical is really rather
trivial for any shop. One would wonder though, why they would go to the
extent of milling when other, more economical but equally effective methods
exist.


where does it say they are milled?

"Many woodworkers have difficulty assembling projects; it is hard to
square corners while juggling clamps. More disheartening is leaving
the glue to cure, only to discover that things crept out of alignment
while the piece was clamped.

This pair of right-angle brackets is ideal for temporarily attaching
to opposite corners of a cabinet carcass, drawer or box to prevent
this frustration. Accurately made from 3/16" aluminum, they are square
to a tolerance comparable to most machine squares.

May also be used as braces for constructing power tool jigs or
assembly fixtures."

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:09:00 -0500, Guess who
wrote:

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


The simple fact is that profits generally only come through
providing what people want.

...or, moreso, convincing them that this is what they want.


or from eliminating all alternatives.

you will be assimilated....

Silvan wrote:
Jay Pique wrote:


Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
be worth it?


If you look at the photo in the January catalog, you can actually read the
print on the brackets.

MADE IN USA JEVONS TOOL COMPANY
PATENT PENDING Kansas City, KS

Not that that actually tells me anything, but it increases the odds that I'd
buy some.

Slightly anyway. I'm actually getting on fine with a set of four corner
clamps so far. They seem to be a very good solution to this particular
problem, and they're already paid for.

chiming in rather late in the threadbut,
You could bypass Lee Valley and buy directly form the maker:
http://www.jevonstoolco.com/_wsn/page3.html
but you have to buy 4, for a slighly higher price.
Joe

wrote in message
where does it say these are made in the US?


In the picture where it is stamped Kansas City , KS Of course, technically
it does not say "Made in USA," but I guess made in KS is good enough.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:09:00 -0500, Guess who
wrote:

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


The simple fact is that profits generally only come through
providing what people want.

...or, moreso, convincing them that this is what they want.


or from eliminating all alternatives.

you will be assimilated....

There is no pain, you are receding...

--

-Mike-

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.com...


I'm basing my opinion on what I see and what I have experienced. Take
a
look at the parts in question. Now look at the operations to make
them.
Shear a blank, punch press, brake, polish, check tolerances, package,
label,
warehouse, ship, bill. Now the seller orders them, receives,
warehouses,
prints a catalog, advertises, receives orders, warehouses, picks order,
packs, ships, bills. We've not even considered insurance, operating
costs,
utilities, employee benefits, taxes, and finally some profit.

I'm basing my opinion (and we both only have opinions) on my experience
in
doing pricing of manufactured items in both the retail and industrial
markets. If you have experience with this, can tell me the steps of
manufacturing and associated cost, travel through the supply chain,
I'll
willing to listen and perhaps change my opinion.

Likewise I base my comments on certain experiences. Mine might not
totally
parallel yours but I do have a great deal of experience in goods in the
supply chain and the incremental markups. I have never seen the types of
markups that have been spoken about here as a normal part of the supply
chain.

I have some experience with the gems industry. there markups of 100%
to 500% are not uncommon, at *each* level of distribution. OTOH,
inventory is very expensive and often moves slowly.


Ah yes - a somewhat unique industry. Furniture is likewise marked up in
huge ways, but both of those stand out quite uniquely in terms of the mark
up they enjoy.


--

-Mike-

wrote in message
news
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:09:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"

where does it say they are milled?

"Many woodworkers have difficulty assembling projects; it is hard to
square corners while juggling clamps. More disheartening is leaving
the glue to cure, only to discover that things crept out of alignment
while the piece was clamped.

This pair of right-angle brackets is ideal for temporarily attaching
to opposite corners of a cabinet carcass, drawer or box to prevent
this frustration. Accurately made from 3/16" aluminum, they are square
to a tolerance comparable to most machine squares.

May also be used as braces for constructing power tool jigs or
assembly fixtures."

Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not. Edwin
asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I had
previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the web
site.
--

-Mike-

Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not. Edwin
asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I had
previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the web
site.

They're milled to within .002" per side.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" wrote:

Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not. Edwin
asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I had
previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the web
site.

They're milled to within .002" per side.



I missed that. where does it say that?

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" wrote:

Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not.
Edwin
asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I
had
previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the
web
site.

They're milled to within .002" per side.



I missed that. where does it say that?

I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's site
and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the last
couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should find the
link.

--

-Mike-

Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian

just my $.02 worth anyway couple of days - after the date of my comment
above, and you should find the

"Brian in Hampton" wrote in message
news:j3XEd.10991$F97.9251@trnddc06...
Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian



Hey Brian - include the text you're referring to in your posts will ya? A
lot of folks do not keep the entire thread tree visible in our readers and
it's about impossible to tell exactly who or what you're commenting on when
you don't include the text.

--

-Mike-

K



"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Brian in Hampton" wrote in message
news:j3XEd.10991$F97.9251@trnddc06...
Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on
them
from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian



Hey Brian - include the text you're referring to in your posts will ya? A
lot of folks do not keep the entire thread tree visible in our readers and
it's about impossible to tell exactly who or what you're commenting on
when
you don't include the text.

--

-Mike-

Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" wrote:

Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not.
Edwin
asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I
had
previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the
web
site.

They're milled to within .002" per side.



I missed that. where does it say that?

I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's site
and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the
last
couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should find
the
link.

--

-Mike-

Sorry bout that Mike..I forgot about that................Brian




"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Brian in Hampton" wrote in message
news:j3XEd.10991$F97.9251@trnddc06...
Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on
them
from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian



Hey Brian - include the text you're referring to in your posts will ya? A
lot of folks do not keep the entire thread tree visible in our readers and
it's about impossible to tell exactly who or what you're commenting on
when
you don't include the text.

--

-Mike-

"Brian in Hampton" wrote in message
news:ABXEd.1931$SS6.331@trnddc07...
Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" wrote:

Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not.
Edwin
asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me.
I
had
previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on
the
web
site.

They're milled to within .002" per side.



I missed that. where does it say that?

I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's
site
and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the
last
couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should find
the
link.

--

-Mike-





Brian they are milled on the reference surfaces - on 3 faces, to within
..002" over 6". Material is sheared and bent aluminum - 3/16 thick...

The web copy is being/has been updated....

Cheers -

Rob

I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I wood
not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian
"Robin Lee" wrote in message
. ..

"Brian in Hampton" wrote in message
news:ABXEd.1931$SS6.331@trnddc07...
Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on
them
from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" wrote:

Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or
not.
Edwin
asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy
me.
I
had
previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on
the
web
site.

They're milled to within .002" per side.



I missed that. where does it say that?

I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's
site
and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the
last
couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should
find
the
link.

--

-Mike-





Brian they are milled on the reference surfaces - on 3 faces, to within
.002" over 6". Material is sheared and bent aluminum - 3/16 thick...

The web copy is being/has been updated....

Cheers -

Rob

"Brian In Hampton" wrote in message
news:RYZEd.21033$Wo.10504@lakeread08...
I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I
wood
not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian

Great, but I don't have any 11 gauge steel, nor do I have a shear, brake,
etc.

I understand that most people do not have a brake shear laser or punch but,
I could do the same with some scrap plywood too. I am fortunate to have the
steel and the equipment to make anything I need, given that I still think
that the price is a bit high.. We have a shop min. of $45.00. If some came
in and wanted the brackets made they would be 45.00. If they wanted 10 each
it might be 45.00 also. the set-up is the cost in the whole thing.I also
could cut all the wood with the laser too but I want to do the woodworking
myself. I use the fancy equipment to make jigs and fixtures............Brian
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Brian In Hampton" wrote in message
news:RYZEd.21033$Wo.10504@lakeread08...
I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I
wood
not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian

Great, but I don't have any 11 gauge steel, nor do I have a shear, brake,
etc.

"Brian In Hampton" wrote in message
news:Jz0Fd.21061$Wo.10594@lakeread08...

I understand that most people do not have a brake shear laser or punch
but,
I am fortunate to have the steel and the equipment to make anything I
need.
I also could cut all the wood with the laser too but I want to do the
woodworking myself. I use the fancy equipment to make jigs and fixtures

You suck Brian.

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:21:43 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Brian In Hampton" wrote in message
news:Jz0Fd.21061$Wo.10594@lakeread08...

I understand that most people do not have a brake shear laser or punch
but,
I am fortunate to have the steel and the equipment to make anything I
need.
I also could cut all the wood with the laser too but I want to do the
woodworking myself. I use the fancy equipment to make jigs and fixtures

You suck Brian.

--

-Mike-

I think you might want to re-punctuate that. ("Eats, shoots, and leaves.")

"igor" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:21:43 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Brian In Hampton" wrote in message
news:Jz0Fd.21061$Wo.10594@lakeread08...

I understand that most people do not have a brake shear laser or punch
but,
I am fortunate to have the steel and the equipment to make anything I
need.
I also could cut all the wood with the laser too but I want to do the
woodworking myself. I use the fancy equipment to make jigs and fixtures

You suck Brian.

--

-Mike-

I think you might want to re-punctuate that. ("Eats, shoots, and
leaves.")


OK - You suck, Brian.

--

-Mike-

"Brian In Hampton" wrote in message
news:RYZEd.21033$Wo.10504@lakeread08...
I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I
wood
not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian
"Robin Lee" wrote in message
. ..


Brian -

Completely understand - but we have to leave the value judgement up to the
customer...there are lots more people with $10 bills (well, $12.25 really),
than there are with the desire to build their own braces.

The "make vs buy" equation is different for everyone.

Cheers -

Rob

"Robin Lee" wrote in message

The "make vs buy" equation is different for everyone.

Of all the catalogs I get from LV, the most recent is my personal favorite.

Despite its thinness, it contains a larger application of "crowbar grease"
than all the other's combined, and evokes the Pavlovian response of the old
"Sears catalog wishful/wistful" thinking" of my youth.

IOW, like that lovely catcher's mitt/guitar/bicycle of 50 years ago, there
are at least half a dozen items therein that, the need of which, I wasn't
even aware.

How do you do that??

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Swingman" wrote in news:8bidnQG_z99gsnjcRVn-
:

How do you do that??


Simple; he's evil. ;-) (if the humor's not obvious).

Between the last two update catalogs, and some leftover needed misc. shop
supplies, I expect I'll ordering in the next week ...

Regards,

JT