Mike Marlow wrote:
work. Though... I might suggest that it really is something of a matter of
not trusting your own work.

Actually it's less a fear of not screwing things in right than of simply
not making the right decisions to begin with. I teach myself a lot of
things, and I learn by making a lot of mistakes. I've read all I can
stand on the subject, and I *think* I know what I'm doing, but I'm not
really going to trust it until it works for a long time. Much the same
way the second piece of furniture I built was a bed for my son, and it
was at least a year before I stopped sitting down on it gingerly.

In fact, in my experience teaching myself things, right now is the _the
most dangerous_ time for me - I *think* I know what I'm doing with
electricity. That might be a false confidence, though, so I'm extra
careful.

-BAT

"Brett A. Thomas" wrote in message
...
I believe that the logic behind the NEC frowning on permanent extension
cords (assuming my memory that they do is correct) is that every time
you have a non-hardwired connection, it's possible for it to work loose.
If it works loose, you can have arcing, which would be doubly bad if
it's in a pile of sawdust in a workshop at the time.

Go with twistlocks. If your tools aren't moving around the cord isn't going
to work loose.
As for sitting in a pile of sawdust, well, one end of the cord is in a
socket the same as any other cord so there is no difference in safety there.
The other is near the tool. Mine are typically off the ground so it should
be OK too.

Tools on mobile bases and extension cords are the way to increase your shop
size considerably. Mine is now as big as my garage AND driveway.

When I redo all my tools 220, I figured I'd need to replace the plugs,
anyway, so I'll make the tool cords be the necessary length to not need
extension cords. I'd figured this would be safer and neater.

We have disproved the safety part. Now tell me how it is neater. You still
have a cord going from tool to socket in either case. In the case of
extension cords you can roll them up and put them away if you want to. I do.
It means the kids can't turn on the machine by accident or even on purpose.

"Brett A. Thomas" wrote in message
...

To be clear, I'm asking not to lecture, but because my understanding of
practical electricity is imperfect, and I want to understand. I get why
_you'd_ need to do that, but I don't happen to have manufacturers
sending me tools that rotate in and out of my shop on a regular basis.

Ha! You gotta get a job like Charlie's Brett.

When I put a tool there, it's because (excepting shop reorgs) I expect
it to be there until it dies, or I do.

Maybe hardwire is the way for you to go. In my shop area tools move around
as they're needed. They don't always move to the same spot on the floor,
depending on what else is going on there. That's where extension cords come
in very handy. If they were stationary, and fixed, I'd hardwire them with
no plug at all.


I believe that the logic behind the NEC frowning on permanent extension
cords (assuming my memory that they do is correct) is that every time
you have a non-hardwired connection, it's possible for it to work loose.
If it works loose, you can have arcing, which would be doubly bad if
it's in a pile of sawdust in a workshop at the time.

The same could be said of any plug, whether it's a UL listed cord, the plug
on the end of a cord hardwired to a table saw, or any other plug in your
shop. Where it's a concern for a plug coming loose, twist lock plugs
address the concern nicely.


When I redo all my tools 220, I figured I'd need to replace the plugs,
anyway, so I'll make the tool cords be the necessary length to not need
extension cords. I'd figured this would be safer and neater.


Not really any safer in practical terms and I don't know how much neater
either. After all 10 or 20 or whatever feet of electrical cord is still 10
or 20 or whatever feet of electrical cord - no matter if it's one long piece
or two smaller ones in the form of an extension cord. But - since it sounds
more like you're permanently placing your stuff, why not just hardwire and
forget the plugs completely?

Just as a sideline, I have about 25 feet of cord wired to my table saw motor
so that I can put it anywhere and hit an outlet. It's really no different
than having a 6 foot cord and using an extension cord, but at one point I
had to replace my cord and I had some long stuff lying around so I just used
it that way. The one and only real disadvantage is that I always have 25
feet of cord to deal with as I move my saw around. Not a big deal at all,
but there are down sides to everything.
--

-Mike-

J wrote:
We have disproved the safety part. Now tell me how it is neater. You still
have a cord going from tool to socket in either case. In the case of
extension cords you can roll them up and put them away if you want to. I do.
It means the kids can't turn on the machine by accident or even on purpose.

Well, this is getting into a whole other question, but I'd love feedback
on this. My basic plan has been to run a dedicated set of wiring for
fixed machines (defining "fixed" to include some stuff that's mobile but
plugged in most of the time), and to have panic stops and a lockout box
for those circuits. That'll let me lock down the stationary power tools
when I leave the shop (in case the kids get in) but still have lights
work, batteries charge, etc. Anyone have a good source for those kinds
of electrical supplies (lockout boxes, panic buttons, etc)?

-BAT

I've never once plugged in a new extension cord and
thought, "I hope this works."

I have - ever since I plugged something into a brand new extension cord
and ended up with a whole lot of arcing going on. Scared me half to
death as it was one of those "fancy" cords with 3 outlets on the end,
and clear plastic so you could see the little neon light in there to
show you it was live. The act of plugging in a tool caused one of the
parts of the outlet to shift inside the plastic and contact another
part. Needless to say I was not amused.

Goofy thing is that this of course was a more expensive cord while I
normally get el-cheapo extension cords that I treat almost as
disposable. A nick in the insulation and it gets cut in half for use
in other projects.

Dan

I've never once plugged in a new extension cord and
thought, "I hope this works."

I have - ever since I plugged something into a brand new extension cord
and ended up with a whole lot of arcing going on. Scared me half to
death as it was one of those "fancy" cords with 3 outlets on the end,
and clear plastic so you could see the little neon light in there to
show you it was live. The act of plugging in a tool caused one of the
parts of the outlet to shift inside the plastic and contact another
part. Needless to say I was not amused.

Goofy thing is that this of course was a more expensive cord while I
normally get el-cheapo extension cords that I treat almost as
disposable. A nick in the insulation and it gets cut in half for use
in other projects.

Dan

hey, guys. No offence intended, none taken.

bob g.

Brett A. Thomas wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:

"Brett A. Thomas" wrote in message

Just a joke, Charlie. Although, FWIW, I'd tend to be a little more
suspicious of shop-made extension cords (whatever their voltage) than of
the UL-listed ones.


Would you be equally more suspicious of shop made wood products than of
commercially manufactured ones?


Well, I don't believe most common wood furniture goes through quite the
UL-sponsored torture testing most extension cords do, so I don't think
that's particularly a fair question. I also think most shop-made cords
are probably not as extensively designed and engineered as most
shop-made wood products. And, finally, if I mess up a bench in the
shop, it's probably not going to catch on fire. [Pauses briefly to
imagine screwing up a bench so badly that it bursts into flames].

Anyway, I was just trying to make a lighthearted comment and apparently
have now offended half of rec.woodworking. I'm sure at some point I'll
make an extension cord myself and it'll work just fine. All I'm saying
is it'll be six months before I stop looking at it carefully everytime I
use it - and that wouldn't be true of a UL-listed extension cord.

-BAT

"Brett A. Thomas" wrote in message
...
J wrote:
We have disproved the safety part. Now tell me how it is neater. You
still
have a cord going from tool to socket in either case. In the case of
extension cords you can roll them up and put them away if you want to. I
do.
It means the kids can't turn on the machine by accident or even on
purpose.

Well, this is getting into a whole other question, but I'd love feedback
on this. My basic plan has been to run a dedicated set of wiring for
fixed machines (defining "fixed" to include some stuff that's mobile but
plugged in most of the time), and to have panic stops and a lockout box
for those circuits. That'll let me lock down the stationary power tools
when I leave the shop (in case the kids get in) but still have lights
work, batteries charge, etc. Anyone have a good source for those kinds
of electrical supplies (lockout boxes, panic buttons, etc)?

-BAT

Well, the simplest lockout box is your subpanel. Throw the breakers when
you're done for the day and secure the subpanel in any way you're
comfortable with. You should be able to find a number of commercial
electrical supply houses near where you live that would have just about
anything you'd want to put in. You can get really carried away with this
stuff and sometimes you have to step back and say - hey, this is just a
hobby shop - do I really need this or that or the other thing, or is a
simpler method a better approach. Personal preference will prevail.
--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
anything you'd want to put in. You can get really carried away with this
stuff and sometimes you have to step back and say - hey, this is just a
hobby shop - do I really need this or that or the other thing, or is a
simpler method a better approach. Personal preference will prevail.

Yeah, that's usually a danger for me. But I'm also a bit of a
safety freak. I'm sure the price tags will dictate a lot of my design,
anyway. At the very least, I'd really like to be able to actually *lock
out* the big tools so I don't have to worry about the kids at all.
That'll be very popular with SWMBO.

-BAT

In article ,
Brett A. Thomas wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
anything you'd want to put in. You can get really carried away with this
stuff and sometimes you have to step back and say - hey, this is just a
hobby shop - do I really need this or that or the other thing, or is a
simpler method a better approach. Personal preference will prevail.

Yeah, that's usually a danger for me. But I'm also a bit of a
safety freak. I'm sure the price tags will dictate a lot of my design,
anyway. At the very least, I'd really like to be able to actually *lock
out* the big tools so I don't have to worry about the kids at all.
That'll be very popular with SWMBO.

IF you're putting in a sub-panel, You can put in a 'manual disconnect'
_upstream_ of the panel. These are readily available at the BORG, as well
as any electrical supply house. For _not_ a whole lot of money.

Obviously, if you go this route, you run the circuits for the lighting
directly from the main panel. You do _not_ want the lock-out to disable
the lighting._

'panic buttons' are a whole nother story. These require a 'contactor' (the
name for a 'really heavy-duty relay', and some trivial control circuitry
that holds the contactor engaged, until a panic button is pushed.

Buying this kind of stuff new *is* generally price-prohibitive. However,
on the surplus market -- e.g. http://www.surplussales.com -- you can
find appropriate heavy-duty components for not a whole lot of money. I
haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if they even have the 'big red
button' panic buttons.

Robert Bonomi wrote:
Buying this kind of stuff new *is* generally price-prohibitive. However,
on the surplus market -- e.g. http://www.surplussales.com -- you can
find appropriate heavy-duty components for not a whole lot of money. I
haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if they even have the 'big red
button' panic buttons.

Thanks for the link. I'm sure whenever I get it all done (or decide
it's not worth the effort & cost) I'll post pics...

-BAT

Again, a very informative thread.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned, is the importance of
strain-relieves. When using a twist-lock plug, the amount of pull on a
'tripped-over' wire can be enough to break away the stranded wires from
the attachment screws. Make sure that the strain relief is suited for
size of the wire chosen.
Sometimes people think they need to go to heavier gauge wire when the
voltage doubles, while in fact the opposite is true.

my 2 cents worth ($33.00 Canadian)