Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite

Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

You're probably spending a lot more time sanding than you need to.

I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Try a coat of butchers wax. It'll make the surface less porous (easier to
clean) and restore the beading.

Hiya,
I can't speak to the question at heart as I don't use the poly stuff. Have
you considered other finishes that are a bit easier to repair? Kitchen
countertops will no doubt see a good number of "accidents" and you may want
to consider the possibility of having to re-finish/touch up areas down the
road. My understanding is Poly is a very tough finish but repairing it is
even tougher.
Cheers,
cc

OK, great. Now you've learned a bit about surface tension. Doesn't mean a
thing as long as the film is continuous.

Points out something others are trying to say when they tell you not to use
polyurethane. Any break in the surface is going to grow because moisture
will use the same effect to slide between the finish and the wood, then into
the wood, promoting further separation of the two surfaces.

Makes thicker better, but of course, that promotes the "liquid" look.

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite

George wrote:

OK, great. Now you've learned a bit about surface tension. Doesn't mean
a thing as long as the film is continuous.

Points out something others are trying to say when they tell you not to
use
polyurethane. Any break in the surface is going to grow because moisture
will use the same effect to slide between the finish and the wood, then
into the wood, promoting further separation of the two surfaces.

True for any finish, but the effect that he's seeing is called a "water
break free surface" and the main thing that it indicates is the the surface
is free of oils, waxes, etc. Checking for water-break free is one of the
steps in adhesive bonding in many critical applications in aerospace.
Essentially he cleaned off any wax or oil that evolved during the curing of
the finish.

I can't see where that is any reason to use a less durable finish in a
situation that is going to be subject to a good deal of heavy use.

Makes thicker better, but of course, that promotes the "liquid" look.

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite



--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

Hiya,
I can't speak to the question at heart as I don't use the poly stuff.
Have
you considered other finishes that are a bit easier to repair? Kitchen
countertops will no doubt see a good number of "accidents" and you may
want to consider the possibility of having to re-finish/touch up areas
down the
road. My understanding is Poly is a very tough finish but repairing it is
even tougher.

What finish is "easier to repair" that is going to last for any time in a
wet environment with exposure to acids and bases and the occasional
solvent?

Cheers,
cc

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

No. The only reason to use more abrasive grits is to more quickly knock
down areas. If your application is smooth enough that you can achieve the
desired smoothness with only 2000 grit, then don't go any more abrasive -
you're just making more work by doing so and removing finish for no good
reason.


I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.


As long as you don't go through the finish - which is unlikely with 2000
grit, then you are not at any risk with what you see. You just don't have
the same surface tension as when the scratches weren't there. If it really
starts to bug you then go get a quart of automotive buffing compount (light
cut) and buff it up with that. It should take the fine scratches from the
2000 right out with a bit of elbow grease.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.


Comments? Here?
--

-Mike-

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite


Sanding first with the very fine abrasive gives you a very smooth but not
necessarily flat surface that you'd get by leveling with the heavier grits
first.

AIUI surface tension is affected by the roughness of the surface so it's not
at all implausible that your sanded side exhibits a lower surface tension
than the rougher side.

As long as you haven't sanded through the finish, you have the same material
on both sides, though not necessarily the same thickness. My gut reaction
is that your finishes provide equal protection on both halves.

Norm

"Norm Dresner" wrote in message
...
"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite


Sanding first with the very fine abrasive gives you a very smooth but not
necessarily flat surface that you'd get by leveling with the heavier grits
first.

isn't the flatness of the surface affected not by the grit, but by the
flatness and inflexibility of whatever is behind the sandpaper? the paper
would only take off the high spots if the backing was hard and already flat.

AIUI surface tension is affected by the roughness of the surface so it's
not
at all implausible that your sanded side exhibits a lower surface tension
than the rougher side.

As long as you haven't sanded through the finish, you have the same
material
on both sides, though not necessarily the same thickness. My gut reaction
is that your finishes provide equal protection on both halves.

Norm

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya,
I can't speak to the question at heart as I don't use the poly stuff.
Have
you considered other finishes that are a bit easier to repair? Kitchen
countertops will no doubt see a good number of "accidents" and you may
want
to consider the possibility of having to re-finish/touch up areas down the
road. My understanding is Poly is a very tough finish but repairing it is
even tougher.
Cheers,
cc


This is a commercial application and the counter will be subject to
occasional water/coffee spills and I needed something that would provide the
best protection from stains. The areas that will contact food will have
mineral oil on it.

thanks,
dwhite

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

OK, great. Now you've learned a bit about surface tension. Doesn't
mean
a thing as long as the film is continuous.

Points out something others are trying to say when they tell you not to
use
polyurethane. Any break in the surface is going to grow because
moisture
will use the same effect to slide between the finish and the wood, then
into the wood, promoting further separation of the two surfaces.

True for any finish, but the effect that he's seeing is called a "water
break free surface" and the main thing that it indicates is the the
surface
is free of oils, waxes, etc. Checking for water-break free is one of the
steps in adhesive bonding in many critical applications in aerospace.
Essentially he cleaned off any wax or oil that evolved during the curing
of
the finish.

That's interesting. I suppose that might also explain why the sanded part
feels smooth while the unsanded gloss poly feels sticky to the touch. Maybe
there are oils on the surface.

Poured some hot coffee on both surfaces today and wiped it up after about
1/2 hour. Both sides came clean although the sanded part looked like it
wasn't going to come clean at first. In no time it did come perfectly
clean. I couldn't find any hint of coffee. I also put a hot pot of coffee
on the poly for about 5 minutes. It looked fine. I did see what were
almost microscopic marks or bubbles when I removed the pot, but didn't have
time to see exactly what that was. I'm going to try that again tomorrow,
but things look good so far.

In a prior trial with Minwax, the coffee did penetrate to the wood but I'm
pretty sure that's because I didn't have enough of a build up of poly. I
suppose I'll have to live with the plastic wood look, but I think it is
better than leaving the wood to its own devices among the general public. I
figure I can always sand the poly off down the road if it starts to fall
apart for some reason.

dwhite


I can't see where that is any reason to use a less durable finish in a
situation that is going to be subject to a good deal of heavy use.

Makes thicker better, but of course, that promotes the "liquid" look.

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my
butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel
and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the
final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to
600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is
on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample
with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched
poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be,
I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if
it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite



--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

No. The only reason to use more abrasive grits is to more quickly knock
down areas.

thanks for your advice.

dwhite

Charles Spitzer wrote:


"Norm Dresner" wrote in message
...
"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel
and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to
600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is
on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample
with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite


Sanding first with the very fine abrasive gives you a very smooth but not
necessarily flat surface that you'd get by leveling with the heavier
grits first.

isn't the flatness of the surface affected not by the grit, but by the
flatness and inflexibility of whatever is behind the sandpaper? the paper
would only take off the high spots if the backing was hard and already
flat.

However most people don't have the patience to flatten a surface with 2000
grit sandpaper. Sure, if it has a flat backing it will eventually get the
surface flat, but you may die of old age before the job is done. The grit
doesn't control flatness, but it does control cutting rate. The idea is
that you start off with something that cuts fairly fast, get the surface
flat quickly with that, and then use increasingly finger grits to take off
the marks that the coarse grit made.

AIUI surface tension is affected by the roughness of the surface so it's
not
at all implausible that your sanded side exhibits a lower surface tension
than the rougher side.

As long as you haven't sanded through the finish, you have the same
material
on both sides, though not necessarily the same thickness. My gut
reaction is that your finishes provide equal protection on both halves.

Norm


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Regardless what you call it, if you have scratches in the surface, you won't
get a tight droplet, and particles like those in coffee will hide from a
swift wipe like troops in foxholes.

Now your experiment in using your surface as a hot plate is another matter.
"Microscopic bubbles" is a red flag. You might be evolving excess moisture
from beneath, and this will break your finish from the wood..

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Poured some hot coffee on both surfaces today and wiped it up after about
1/2 hour. Both sides came clean although the sanded part looked like it
wasn't going to come clean at first. In no time it did come perfectly
clean. I couldn't find any hint of coffee. I also put a hot pot of
coffee
on the poly for about 5 minutes. It looked fine. I did see what were
almost microscopic marks or bubbles when I removed the pot, but didn't
have
time to see exactly what that was. I'm going to try that again tomorrow,
but things look good so far.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Charles Spitzer wrote:


"Norm Dresner" wrote in message
...
"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my
butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel
and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the
final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to
600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is
on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample
with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be,
I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if
it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite


Sanding first with the very fine abrasive gives you a very smooth but
not
necessarily flat surface that you'd get by leveling with the heavier
grits first.

isn't the flatness of the surface affected not by the grit, but by the
flatness and inflexibility of whatever is behind the sandpaper? the paper
would only take off the high spots if the backing was hard and already
flat.

However most people don't have the patience to flatten a surface with 2000
grit sandpaper. Sure, if it has a flat backing it will eventually get the
surface flat, but you may die of old age before the job is done. The grit
doesn't control flatness, but it does control cutting rate. The idea is
that you start off with something that cuts fairly fast, get the surface
flat quickly with that, and then use increasingly finger grits to take off
the marks that the coarse grit made.

thanks. what if it is already flat? doesn't poly, or other oil finishes,
self-level pretty well?

AIUI surface tension is affected by the roughness of the surface so it's
not
at all implausible that your sanded side exhibits a lower surface
tension
than the rougher side.

As long as you haven't sanded through the finish, you have the same
material
on both sides, though not necessarily the same thickness. My gut
reaction is that your finishes provide equal protection on both halves.

Norm


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Charles Spitzer" wrote in message
...


thanks. what if it is already flat? doesn't poly, or other oil finishes,
self-level pretty well?


Yes, but generally not smooth flat. There will typically be lots of
inconsistencies in the surface. Everything from brush strokes if you use a
brush to differences from the lap if you spray it, or even orange peel.
Dust finds its way in sometimes and the less than perfect surface of the
wood will telegraph in the finish. All of this - or any of this adds up to
a less than flat surface. Depending upon how irregular it is, you will
select a grit to take it down and then progress upwards in grit to be rid of
the sanding marks. With sprayed finishes it's not uncommon to be able to
start no coarser than 1000 grit. Typically, you can go to 1200 or 1500 from
there and then to a fast rub with a rubbing compound for a mirror finish.
In essence, flat is what you want to define flat to be. For some, nothing
less than a mirror finish is flat. That absolutely calls for sanding.
--

-Mike-

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
Regardless what you call it, if you have scratches in the surface, you
won't
get a tight droplet, and particles like those in coffee will hide from a
swift wipe like troops in foxholes.

Now your experiment in using your surface as a hot plate is another
matter.
"Microscopic bubbles" is a red flag. You might be evolving excess
moisture
from beneath, and this will break your finish from the wood..

Hi. Yesterday I put another spill of coffee on the 2000 grit poly surface.
This morning it was dried on. I wiped it off with a little rubbing and it
came clean. However, by getting down close to the wood and looking across
the surface I could see a very fine outline where the coffee stain was. It
looks like maybe it etched the poly around the edge, but otherwise the
finish looked the same inside and outside of the coffee mark. This outline
is impossible to see and hard to feel unless you are really looking for it.
I also put a hot coffee pot on the surface for 5 minutes or so to test the
surface again. I got these very very small marks in the surface which could
only be seen looking across the wood. I don't know how to describe them but
I hit the surface briefly with some more 2000 grit and the coffee outline
and these "bubbles" or marks did disappear. Maybe there is still some
volatiles in the oil poly? It has only been a couple of days since I
applied it.

I would consider coffee overnight or a hot coffee pot to be the most extreme
treatment these counters are likely to see, and probably won't ever get the
hot coffee pot. I was told that poly wasn't really impervious and that
converted varnish was the only real way to get a bulletproof finish. It has
to be sprayed on and I don't want to go that far.

It also seems to me that it isn't so hard to fix a poly surface if the
damage is limited to the upper layers of poly. Why not sand it a little,
add another thin layer of poly, and then sand it to finish?

thanks,
dwhite


"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Poured some hot coffee on both surfaces today and wiped it up after
about
1/2 hour. Both sides came clean although the sanded part looked like it
wasn't going to come clean at first. In no time it did come perfectly
clean. I couldn't find any hint of coffee. I also put a hot pot of
coffee
on the poly for about 5 minutes. It looked fine. I did see what were
almost microscopic marks or bubbles when I removed the pot, but didn't
have
time to see exactly what that was. I'm going to try that again
tomorrow,
but things look good so far.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Charles Spitzer" wrote in message
...


thanks. what if it is already flat? doesn't poly, or other oil finishes,
self-level pretty well?


Yes, but generally not smooth flat. There will typically be lots of
inconsistencies in the surface. Everything from brush strokes if you use
a
brush to differences from the lap if you spray it, or even orange peel.
Dust finds its way in sometimes and the less than perfect surface of the
wood will telegraph in the finish. All of this - or any of this adds up
to
a less than flat surface. Depending upon how irregular it is, you will
select a grit to take it down and then progress upwards in grit to be rid
of
the sanding marks. With sprayed finishes it's not uncommon to be able to
start no coarser than 1000 grit. Typically, you can go to 1200 or 1500
from
there and then to a fast rub with a rubbing compound for a mirror finish.
In essence, flat is what you want to define flat to be. For some, nothing
less than a mirror finish is flat. That absolutely calls for sanding.
--

I applied several (5?) coats of poly and then went right to the 2000. I'm
left with a pretty shiny surface that has some ripples in it that cannot be
felt, but can be seen if looking at reflected light at a shallow angle. It
is not strictly a mirror finish but it does feel like one to the touch. I'm
still not sure if a super shiny surface or a more matted one.

dwhite


-Mike-

"Dan White" wrote in message
...

I applied several (5?) coats of poly and then went right to the 2000. I'm
left with a pretty shiny surface that has some ripples in it that cannot
be
felt, but can be seen if looking at reflected light at a shallow angle.
It
is not strictly a mirror finish but it does feel like one to the touch.
I'm
still not sure if a super shiny surface or a more matted one.


That ripple is what you're looking to sand out when you go for flat. You
can feel them if you run your fingers very lightly down the surface slowly.
Over time you develop a good feel for finding them. Do a little autobody
repair and you'll quickly become an expert at finding them. Either you do,
or the word "dambkit" becomes a frequent part of your vocabulary - usually
just after the clear coat goes on.

Grab yourself a paint stick and wrap it with your sandpaper (wrap the whole
stick) and lay it flat on your surface and sand. It will flatten those
ripples out nicely. Don't stop until the entire surface of the piece shows
sanding marks evenly. Get it back up to the desired level of shine after
that and then stand back and look at it at that shallow angle. You'll love
what you see. For the type of ripple you're describing I probably would not
go more aggressive than 1000 grit. You could go to 600 but you'd want to be
quite careful. 600 can take finish down pretty quickly. 1000 will take
more work but it will get there and there's less chance of burning through
if you're not really accustomed to this stuff. Either way it's work. If
you start at 600 your going to go through more stages to be rid of the
sanding marks. If you start at 1000 you're going to sand more to get to the
same level, but you'll only have one step before buffing. If you're really
into it you can buff from 1000 but I prefer to sand more and buff less. I
just hate buffing.

--

-Mike-

I'd bet on uncured vehicle, that's for sure. Week or more for full cure.

For repairs You'd have to do the entire, or see the edge. You might blend
it flat, but it'll show a shadow.

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Maybe there is still some
volatiles in the oil poly? It has only been a couple of days since I
applied it.

I would consider coffee overnight or a hot coffee pot to be the most
extreme
treatment these counters are likely to see, and probably won't ever get
the
hot coffee pot. I was told that poly wasn't really impervious and that
converted varnish was the only real way to get a bulletproof finish. It
has
to be sprayed on and I don't want to go that far.

It also seems to me that it isn't so hard to fix a poly surface if the
damage is limited to the upper layers of poly. Why not sand it a little,
add another thin layer of poly, and then sand it to finish?

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Dan White" wrote in message
...

I applied several (5?) coats of poly and then went right to the 2000.
I'm
left with a pretty shiny surface that has some ripples in it that cannot
be
felt, but can be seen if looking at reflected light at a shallow angle.
It
is not strictly a mirror finish but it does feel like one to the touch.
I'm
still not sure if a super shiny surface or a more matted one.


That ripple is what you're looking to sand out when you go for flat. You
can feel them if you run your fingers very lightly down the surface
slowly.
Over time you develop a good feel for finding them. Do a little autobody
repair and you'll quickly become an expert at finding them. Either you
do,
or the word "dambkit" becomes a frequent part of your vocabulary - usually
just after the clear coat goes on.

Grab yourself a paint stick and wrap it with your sandpaper (wrap the
whole
stick) and lay it flat on your surface and sand. It will flatten those
ripples out nicely.

I'm going to try hard and feel those ripples. I'd swear they aren't
detectable by the touch. I even wonder if the ripple has something to do
with varying thicknesses of poly rather than an uneven surface. If the
butcher block surface itself isn't perfect then there would be different
amounts of poly even with a perfect surface. Maybe it is more an optical
effect? ... Anyway I'll look some more on Friday. I did do some additional
sanding today on another section to see if I could get rid of the slight
ripples. I used 400 grit and then just a few passes with 2000 and the
ripples were still there.

I'm not sure I need the finish any better than what I've got but I'd like to
see what is possible as long as I'm still experimenting. I'll give the 1000
grit a try on a paint stick and see what happens. Maybe I'll post a pic
link for the heck of it if I can get a good shot.

thanks,
dwhite

Don't stop until the entire surface of the piece shows
sanding marks evenly. Get it back up to the desired level of shine after
that and then stand back and look at it at that shallow angle. You'll
love
what you see. For the type of ripple you're describing I probably would
not
go more aggressive than 1000 grit. You could go to 600 but you'd want to
be
quite careful. 600 can take finish down pretty quickly. 1000 will take
more work but it will get there and there's less chance of burning through
if you're not really accustomed to this stuff. Either way it's work. If
you start at 600 your going to go through more stages to be rid of the
sanding marks. If you start at 1000 you're going to sand more to get to
the
same level, but you'll only have one step before buffing. If you're
really
into it you can buff from 1000 but I prefer to sand more and buff less. I
just hate buffing.

--

-Mike-

It also seems to me that it isn't so hard to fix a poly surface if the
damage is limited to the upper layers of poly. Why not sand it a little,
add another thin layer of poly, and then sand it to finish?

You could do that. Or spill coffee over the entire surface to even out the
stain.

"mp" wrote in message
...
It also seems to me that it isn't so hard to fix a poly surface if the
damage is limited to the upper layers of poly. Why not sand it a
little,
add another thin layer of poly, and then sand it to finish?

You could do that. Or spill coffee over the entire surface to even out the
stain.


Ha! Now there's thinking outside the box. Should I use regular or decaf?

dwhite

"Dan White" wrote in message
...

I'm going to try hard and feel those ripples. I'd swear they aren't
detectable by the touch. I even wonder if the ripple has something to do
with varying thicknesses of poly rather than an uneven surface. If the
butcher block surface itself isn't perfect then there would be different
amounts of poly even with a perfect surface. Maybe it is more an optical
effect? ... Anyway I'll look some more on Friday. I did do some
additional
sanding today on another section to see if I could get rid of the slight
ripples. I used 400 grit and then just a few passes with 2000 and the
ripples were still there.

I'm not sure I need the finish any better than what I've got but I'd like
to
see what is possible as long as I'm still experimenting. I'll give the
1000
grit a try on a paint stick and see what happens. Maybe I'll post a pic
link for the heck of it if I can get a good shot.


The real answer is to get it to the finish you like and stop there. No
point in getting anal about it. So - if you like it where it is then ignore
my comments and give yourself a pat on the back. Seriously - I'm not being
a wise guy. If however you want to dabble with it more or if you want
something to look at in the future, then grab that paint stick as I
suggested before and wrap it up and lay it down on the project and do a
little sanding. If you have low spots, they'll show up immediately as
unsanded areas. If you see nice even sanding marks on the entire surface
then you're flat. But like I said, the finish you strive for is the finish
that makes you happy. It is after all, all about pleasure.
--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
k.net...

"Dan White" wrote in message
...

I'm going to try hard and feel those ripples. I'd swear they aren't
detectable by the touch. I even wonder if the ripple has something to
do
with varying thicknesses of poly rather than an uneven surface. If the
butcher block surface itself isn't perfect then there would be different
amounts of poly even with a perfect surface. Maybe it is more an
optical
effect? ... Anyway I'll look some more on Friday. I did do some
additional
sanding today on another section to see if I could get rid of the slight
ripples. I used 400 grit and then just a few passes with 2000 and the
ripples were still there.

I'm not sure I need the finish any better than what I've got but I'd
like
to
see what is possible as long as I'm still experimenting. I'll give the
1000
grit a try on a paint stick and see what happens. Maybe I'll post a pic
link for the heck of it if I can get a good shot.


The real answer is to get it to the finish you like and stop there. No
point in getting anal about it. So - if you like it where it is then
ignore
my comments and give yourself a pat on the back. Seriously - I'm not
being
a wise guy. If however you want to dabble with it more or if you want
something to look at in the future, then grab that paint stick as I
suggested before and wrap it up and lay it down on the project and do a
little sanding. If you have low spots, they'll show up immediately as
unsanded areas. If you see nice even sanding marks on the entire surface
then you're flat. But like I said, the finish you strive for is the
finish
that makes you happy. It is after all, all about pleasure.


Great advice. I'm more in the playing around with it mode to be sure it is
what I want protection-wise. Plus I'd like to know what finishes I am
capable of and how hard they are to get. I felt the finish again today and
I stand corrected that the waves can be felt if you really pay attention.
It is also apparent that these waves are due to slight differences from
piece to piece in the butcher block wood itself (the laminates). Anyway I
did the paint stick trick and it showed up the high spots as you said. I
can even see the different layers of poly being sanded down if I look at
just the right angle. I used 400 grit for this and even then it took some
work. It did get much flatter but I had to stop before I completely
finished.

I probably won't go this far when it comes to doing the relatively large
surface area I have to do, but is is nice to know there is a way to make it
really flat if I want to down the road.

Thanks again, Mike.

dwhite

--

-Mike-

"Dan White" wrote in message
...

I probably won't go this far when it comes to doing the relatively large
surface area I have to do, but is is nice to know there is a way to make
it
really flat if I want to down the road.


You can also use something larger than a paint stick to take down a bigger
area at a time. The paint stick was just a common thing that I suggested.
I really would not go any coarser than the 400 you're using though. It will
be difficult to get the scratches out before you run out of finish. I'd try
to stay at and above 600 even if it takes longer.
--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
nk.net...

I'd try
to stay at and above 600 even if it takes longer.

K, thanks,

dwhite