Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite

Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

You're probably spending a lot more time sanding than you need to.

I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Try a coat of butchers wax. It'll make the surface less porous (easier to
clean) and restore the beading.

Hiya,
I can't speak to the question at heart as I don't use the poly stuff. Have
you considered other finishes that are a bit easier to repair? Kitchen
countertops will no doubt see a good number of "accidents" and you may want
to consider the possibility of having to re-finish/touch up areas down the
road. My understanding is Poly is a very tough finish but repairing it is
even tougher.
Cheers,
cc

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

Hiya,
I can't speak to the question at heart as I don't use the poly stuff.
Have
you considered other finishes that are a bit easier to repair? Kitchen
countertops will no doubt see a good number of "accidents" and you may
want to consider the possibility of having to re-finish/touch up areas
down the
road. My understanding is Poly is a very tough finish but repairing it is
even tougher.

What finish is "easier to repair" that is going to last for any time in a
wet environment with exposure to acids and bases and the occasional
solvent?

Cheers,
cc

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya,
I can't speak to the question at heart as I don't use the poly stuff.
Have
you considered other finishes that are a bit easier to repair? Kitchen
countertops will no doubt see a good number of "accidents" and you may
want
to consider the possibility of having to re-finish/touch up areas down the
road. My understanding is Poly is a very tough finish but repairing it is
even tougher.
Cheers,
cc


This is a commercial application and the counter will be subject to
occasional water/coffee spills and I needed something that would provide the
best protection from stains. The areas that will contact food will have
mineral oil on it.

thanks,
dwhite

OK, great. Now you've learned a bit about surface tension. Doesn't mean a
thing as long as the film is continuous.

Points out something others are trying to say when they tell you not to use
polyurethane. Any break in the surface is going to grow because moisture
will use the same effect to slide between the finish and the wood, then into
the wood, promoting further separation of the two surfaces.

Makes thicker better, but of course, that promotes the "liquid" look.

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite

George wrote:

OK, great. Now you've learned a bit about surface tension. Doesn't mean
a thing as long as the film is continuous.

Points out something others are trying to say when they tell you not to
use
polyurethane. Any break in the surface is going to grow because moisture
will use the same effect to slide between the finish and the wood, then
into the wood, promoting further separation of the two surfaces.

True for any finish, but the effect that he's seeing is called a "water
break free surface" and the main thing that it indicates is the the surface
is free of oils, waxes, etc. Checking for water-break free is one of the
steps in adhesive bonding in many critical applications in aerospace.
Essentially he cleaned off any wax or oil that evolved during the curing of
the finish.

I can't see where that is any reason to use a less durable finish in a
situation that is going to be subject to a good deal of heavy use.

Makes thicker better, but of course, that promotes the "liquid" look.

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite



--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

OK, great. Now you've learned a bit about surface tension. Doesn't
mean
a thing as long as the film is continuous.

Points out something others are trying to say when they tell you not to
use
polyurethane. Any break in the surface is going to grow because
moisture
will use the same effect to slide between the finish and the wood, then
into the wood, promoting further separation of the two surfaces.

True for any finish, but the effect that he's seeing is called a "water
break free surface" and the main thing that it indicates is the the
surface
is free of oils, waxes, etc. Checking for water-break free is one of the
steps in adhesive bonding in many critical applications in aerospace.
Essentially he cleaned off any wax or oil that evolved during the curing
of
the finish.

That's interesting. I suppose that might also explain why the sanded part
feels smooth while the unsanded gloss poly feels sticky to the touch. Maybe
there are oils on the surface.

Poured some hot coffee on both surfaces today and wiped it up after about
1/2 hour. Both sides came clean although the sanded part looked like it
wasn't going to come clean at first. In no time it did come perfectly
clean. I couldn't find any hint of coffee. I also put a hot pot of coffee
on the poly for about 5 minutes. It looked fine. I did see what were
almost microscopic marks or bubbles when I removed the pot, but didn't have
time to see exactly what that was. I'm going to try that again tomorrow,
but things look good so far.

In a prior trial with Minwax, the coffee did penetrate to the wood but I'm
pretty sure that's because I didn't have enough of a build up of poly. I
suppose I'll have to live with the plastic wood look, but I think it is
better than leaving the wood to its own devices among the general public. I
figure I can always sand the poly off down the road if it starts to fall
apart for some reason.

dwhite


I can't see where that is any reason to use a less durable finish in a
situation that is going to be subject to a good deal of heavy use.

Makes thicker better, but of course, that promotes the "liquid" look.

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my
butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel
and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the
final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to
600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is
on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample
with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched
poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be,
I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if
it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite



--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Regardless what you call it, if you have scratches in the surface, you won't
get a tight droplet, and particles like those in coffee will hide from a
swift wipe like troops in foxholes.

Now your experiment in using your surface as a hot plate is another matter.
"Microscopic bubbles" is a red flag. You might be evolving excess moisture
from beneath, and this will break your finish from the wood..

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Poured some hot coffee on both surfaces today and wiped it up after about
1/2 hour. Both sides came clean although the sanded part looked like it
wasn't going to come clean at first. In no time it did come perfectly
clean. I couldn't find any hint of coffee. I also put a hot pot of
coffee
on the poly for about 5 minutes. It looked fine. I did see what were
almost microscopic marks or bubbles when I removed the pot, but didn't
have
time to see exactly what that was. I'm going to try that again tomorrow,
but things look good so far.

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
Regardless what you call it, if you have scratches in the surface, you
won't
get a tight droplet, and particles like those in coffee will hide from a
swift wipe like troops in foxholes.

Now your experiment in using your surface as a hot plate is another
matter.
"Microscopic bubbles" is a red flag. You might be evolving excess
moisture
from beneath, and this will break your finish from the wood..

Hi. Yesterday I put another spill of coffee on the 2000 grit poly surface.
This morning it was dried on. I wiped it off with a little rubbing and it
came clean. However, by getting down close to the wood and looking across
the surface I could see a very fine outline where the coffee stain was. It
looks like maybe it etched the poly around the edge, but otherwise the
finish looked the same inside and outside of the coffee mark. This outline
is impossible to see and hard to feel unless you are really looking for it.
I also put a hot coffee pot on the surface for 5 minutes or so to test the
surface again. I got these very very small marks in the surface which could
only be seen looking across the wood. I don't know how to describe them but
I hit the surface briefly with some more 2000 grit and the coffee outline
and these "bubbles" or marks did disappear. Maybe there is still some
volatiles in the oil poly? It has only been a couple of days since I
applied it.

I would consider coffee overnight or a hot coffee pot to be the most extreme
treatment these counters are likely to see, and probably won't ever get the
hot coffee pot. I was told that poly wasn't really impervious and that
converted varnish was the only real way to get a bulletproof finish. It has
to be sprayed on and I don't want to go that far.

It also seems to me that it isn't so hard to fix a poly surface if the
damage is limited to the upper layers of poly. Why not sand it a little,
add another thin layer of poly, and then sand it to finish?

thanks,
dwhite


"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Poured some hot coffee on both surfaces today and wiped it up after
about
1/2 hour. Both sides came clean although the sanded part looked like it
wasn't going to come clean at first. In no time it did come perfectly
clean. I couldn't find any hint of coffee. I also put a hot pot of
coffee
on the poly for about 5 minutes. It looked fine. I did see what were
almost microscopic marks or bubbles when I removed the pot, but didn't
have
time to see exactly what that was. I'm going to try that again
tomorrow,
but things look good so far.

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

No. The only reason to use more abrasive grits is to more quickly knock
down areas. If your application is smooth enough that you can achieve the
desired smoothness with only 2000 grit, then don't go any more abrasive -
you're just making more work by doing so and removing finish for no good
reason.


I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.


As long as you don't go through the finish - which is unlikely with 2000
grit, then you are not at any risk with what you see. You just don't have
the same surface tension as when the scratches weren't there. If it really
starts to bug you then go get a quart of automotive buffing compount (light
cut) and buff it up with that. It should take the fine scratches from the
2000 right out with a bit of elbow grease.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.


Comments? Here?
--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

No. The only reason to use more abrasive grits is to more quickly knock
down areas.

thanks for your advice.

dwhite

"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite


Sanding first with the very fine abrasive gives you a very smooth but not
necessarily flat surface that you'd get by leveling with the heavier grits
first.

AIUI surface tension is affected by the roughness of the surface so it's not
at all implausible that your sanded side exhibits a lower surface tension
than the rougher side.

As long as you haven't sanded through the finish, you have the same material
on both sides, though not necessarily the same thickness. My gut reaction
is that your finishes provide equal protection on both halves.

Norm

"Norm Dresner" wrote in message
...
"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to 600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite


Sanding first with the very fine abrasive gives you a very smooth but not
necessarily flat surface that you'd get by leveling with the heavier grits
first.

isn't the flatness of the surface affected not by the grit, but by the
flatness and inflexibility of whatever is behind the sandpaper? the paper
would only take off the high spots if the backing was hard and already flat.

AIUI surface tension is affected by the roughness of the surface so it's
not
at all implausible that your sanded side exhibits a lower surface tension
than the rougher side.

As long as you haven't sanded through the finish, you have the same
material
on both sides, though not necessarily the same thickness. My gut reaction
is that your finishes provide equal protection on both halves.

Norm

Charles Spitzer wrote:


"Norm Dresner" wrote in message
...
"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel
and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to
600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is
on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample
with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be, I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite


Sanding first with the very fine abrasive gives you a very smooth but not
necessarily flat surface that you'd get by leveling with the heavier
grits first.

isn't the flatness of the surface affected not by the grit, but by the
flatness and inflexibility of whatever is behind the sandpaper? the paper
would only take off the high spots if the backing was hard and already
flat.

However most people don't have the patience to flatten a surface with 2000
grit sandpaper. Sure, if it has a flat backing it will eventually get the
surface flat, but you may die of old age before the job is done. The grit
doesn't control flatness, but it does control cutting rate. The idea is
that you start off with something that cuts fairly fast, get the surface
flat quickly with that, and then use increasingly finger grits to take off
the marks that the coarse grit made.

AIUI surface tension is affected by the roughness of the surface so it's
not
at all implausible that your sanded side exhibits a lower surface tension
than the rougher side.

As long as you haven't sanded through the finish, you have the same
material
on both sides, though not necessarily the same thickness. My gut
reaction is that your finishes provide equal protection on both halves.

Norm


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Charles Spitzer wrote:


"Norm Dresner" wrote in message
...
"Dan White" wrote in message
...
Hi. I've been experimenting with different polyurethanes for my
butcher
block counter tops and it looks like I'm settling on a Sherwin Williams
clear poly. I want a pretty high shine, but not the tacky gloss feel
and
uneven "liquid" look. My understanding was that I should sand the
final
coat with maybe a 400 or even as low as a 220 grit, and then go up to
600
and higher depending on what kind of finish I would like. Tonight I
decided
to try wet sanding with 2000 grit on the clear gloss poly right off the
bat
instead of going through the paces of higher and higher grits (this is
on
a
test piece). It looks to me like it does fine. I have a nice smooth
finish
that has a little less gloss but is smooth to the touch and I don't see
any
imperfections. Am I missing something on my final 2000 grit finish by
doing
things this way? Might it be a better finish by going something like
400/600/1500/2000?

I sanded with 2000 on one half and left the other half of the sample
with
the high gloss "tacky" feel. When I put a wet towel down to clean off
the
sanding dust I noticed that the water beaded up on the untouched poly
while
it layed down on the sanded part. I can understand why this might be,
I
suppose, with the micro abrasions on the sanded side, but I wonder if
it
has
any impact on the resistance the finish has to liquids. After all, I'm
doing all this in order to protect the wood from occasional spills.

Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

dwhite


Sanding first with the very fine abrasive gives you a very smooth but
not
necessarily flat surface that you'd get by leveling with the heavier
grits first.

isn't the flatness of the surface affected not by the grit, but by the
flatness and inflexibility of whatever is behind the sandpaper? the paper
would only take off the high spots if the backing was hard and already
flat.

However most people don't have the patience to flatten a surface with 2000
grit sandpaper. Sure, if it has a flat backing it will eventually get the
surface flat, but you may die of old age before the job is done. The grit
doesn't control flatness, but it does control cutting rate. The idea is
that you start off with something that cuts fairly fast, get the surface
flat quickly with that, and then use increasingly finger grits to take off
the marks that the coarse grit made.

thanks. what if it is already flat? doesn't poly, or other oil finishes,
self-level pretty well?

AIUI surface tension is affected by the roughness of the surface so it's
not
at all implausible that your sanded side exhibits a lower surface
tension
than the rougher side.

As long as you haven't sanded through the finish, you have the same
material
on both sides, though not necessarily the same thickness. My gut
reaction is that your finishes provide equal protection on both halves.

Norm


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Charles Spitzer" wrote in message
...


thanks. what if it is already flat? doesn't poly, or other oil finishes,
self-level pretty well?


Yes, but generally not smooth flat. There will typically be lots of
inconsistencies in the surface. Everything from brush strokes if you use a
brush to differences from the lap if you spray it, or even orange peel.
Dust finds its way in sometimes and the less than perfect surface of the
wood will telegraph in the finish. All of this - or any of this adds up to
a less than flat surface. Depending upon how irregular it is, you will
select a grit to take it down and then progress upwards in grit to be rid of
the sanding marks. With sprayed finishes it's not uncommon to be able to
start no coarser than 1000 grit. Typically, you can go to 1200 or 1500 from
there and then to a fast rub with a rubbing compound for a mirror finish.
In essence, flat is what you want to define flat to be. For some, nothing
less than a mirror finish is flat. That absolutely calls for sanding.
--

-Mike-