"Owen Lawrence" wrote in message
...
What do you mean by "the right saw"? I'm also willing to practice--I
don't expect results like he got; he does
hundreds, if not thousands of dovetail joints a year, and he's been doing
it
for a long time. I like the idea of practicing on shop cabinetry, where
the
only people allowed to criticize my work are other practicing craftsmen.
But I would like to get good enough to move the work upstairs. I like the
idea of learning to do it by hand for the same or lower price than a jig.
I'm in no particular hurry.

Snip!

I bought the Spehar dovetail saw. Vlad Spehar makes them to fit your hand
exactly and the quality is second to none. They are a little steep, I think
it was $125 US even though Vlad is in Ontario. I still need a lot of
practice but Vlad is great with suggestions and tips as well. I'm so happy
with this saw I'm probably going to buy a cross-cut tenon saw from him as
well. I've put a link to his website below. As usual, I'm not affiliated
with the company in any way other than being a very satisfied customer. You
can email me directly if you want a pic of my saw so you can see what it
looks like.

http://www.spehar-toolworks.com/

Ed

Andy Dingley wrote:


[The Incra Ultra Jig is a] Lousy dovetailer, IMHE. Mine has a _lot_ of dust on it these days.

Could you explain why it's a lousy dovetailer?

-Peter De Smidt

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:42:40 -0500, Peter De Smidt
pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:

[The Incra Ultra Jig is a] Lousy dovetailer, IMHE. Mine has a _lot_ of dust on it these days.

Could you explain why it's a lousy dovetailer?

It's not really bad at dovetailing, just very limited for what it can
do it on.

Dovetailing (or box joint cutting) with the Incra relies on a sliding
carriage that runs on the fence. You clamp the stock to the carriage,
then make multiple passes for each tail, according to the strip and
the fence settings.

The problem is lack of rigidity in that sliding carriage. It's poorly
guided by the fence and this gets worse the wider the piece of stock
you have clamped to it. If you're making small boxes, then it's
probably fine for you. For any joint longer than 4" though it becomes
awkward, and 6" is about the limit.

I'd much rather have a long finger jig, where I can clamp the board
edges in, then move a hand-held router over them.

--
Smert' spamionam

"D. J. Dorn" wrote in message ...
Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them. If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.

I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit - gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with dovetails?

Don

What about box joints? Easy to do, once you have your jig (don't
forget to note the required dado shims/settings on the jig!)
What about rabbet joints with reinforcing, decorative small dowels, or
brass pins ala Mr. Marks?
Then, if you don't want to buy an expensive router bit for occaisional
use, there's always creating your own locking joint, dado in the sides
and rabbet in the front. I used this on poplar shop drawers, with
maple fronts added, they are holding up well to heavy, nearly daily
use.

Andy Dingley wrote:

It's not really bad at dovetailing, just very limited for what it can
do it on.

Dovetailing (or box joint cutting) with the Incra relies on a sliding
carriage that runs on the fence. You clamp the stock to the carriage,
then make multiple passes for each tail, according to the strip and
the fence settings.

The problem is lack of rigidity in that sliding carriage. It's poorly
guided by the fence and this gets worse the wider the piece of stock
you have clamped to it. If you're making small boxes, then it's
probably fine for you. For any joint longer than 4" though it becomes
awkward, and 6" is about the limit.

I'd much rather have a long finger jig, where I can clamp the board
edges in, then move a hand-held router over them.


Hi Andy,

Thanks for the reply. I can see how that would be a potential problem.

On another matter, I recently received an foul-mouthed email from
someone named Greg Millen, whom I've never heard of. In googling him, it
seems that he posts here. Since my only recent post here was earlier in
this thread, where I asked Andy to explain what he meant, I'm at a loss
as to how I offended Mr. Millen. Not that I care, mind you, as it's
obvious what type of person he is. This is just a heads up for others in
case you get a peurile message from him.

-Peter De Smidt

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:23:26 -0500, Peter De Smidt
pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:

On another matter, I recently received an foul-mouthed email from
someone named Greg Millen, whom I've never heard of. In googling him, it
seems that he posts here. Since my only recent post here was earlier in
this thread, where I asked Andy to explain what he meant, I'm at a loss
as to how I offended Mr. Millen. Not that I care, mind you, as it's
obvious what type of person he is. This is just a heads up for others in
case you get a peurile message from him.

-Peter De Smidt


wasn't him. it was a troll impersonating him.

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:23:26 -0500, Peter De Smidt
pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:

On another matter, I recently received an foul-mouthed email from
someone named Greg Millen,

I very much doubt that - there's a lot of forged trollmail flying
around at the moment, concerned with the formation of a new
rec.woodworking.all-ages group. The new wannabee-moderator has already
described the existing group as a "sewer", and as it's not living up
to its billing, someone seems to be busy trying to pretend it is.

My apologies for your email, but I doubt very much it came from either
Greg or Dave Balderstone.

BTW - I was trolled last week, and I'm expecting a batch of these
emails to go out soon with my name on them. To save any possible
confusion, I _never_ send out abusive emails. If I'm going to call any
poster names, I'll do it on Usenet.

Well, I received one of these messages too. I honestly do not even remeber
seeing the posts regarding the new group you mentioned. Really irritating
having that kind of message show up on a family computer.

I responded directly to Mr Millen. Will be interesting to see if he
responds.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:23:26 -0500, Peter De Smidt
pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:

On another matter, I recently received an foul-mouthed email from
someone named Greg Millen,

I very much doubt that - there's a lot of forged trollmail flying
around at the moment, concerned with the formation of a new
rec.woodworking.all-ages group. The new wannabee-moderator has already
described the existing group as a "sewer", and as it's not living up
to its billing, someone seems to be busy trying to pretend it is.

My apologies for your email, but I doubt very much it came from either
Greg or Dave Balderstone.

BTW - I was trolled last week, and I'm expecting a batch of these
emails to go out soon with my name on them. To save any possible
confusion, I _never_ send out abusive emails. If I'm going to call any
poster names, I'll do it on Usenet.

Greetings and Salutations....
*snip*
On another matter, I recently received an foul-mouthed email from
someone named Greg Millen, whom I've never heard of. In googling him, it
seems that he posts here. Since my only recent post here was earlier in
this thread, where I asked Andy to explain what he meant, I'm at a loss
as to how I offended Mr. Millen. Not that I care, mind you, as it's
obvious what type of person he is. This is just a heads up for others in
case you get a peurile message from him.

-Peter De Smidt

Hum..that is interesting, as I received such an email today.
Now..I dropped a note back thanking him for the input, and inquiring
as to what triggered it...and now I kind of reget it, as I fear that
someone spammed these out, in order to overwhelm Mr. Millen's
mailbox with traffic.
I was a tad puzzled because, as far as I could tell from
a google search, I had not posted to anything HE had...
Sigh.
Regards
dave mundt

Personally Owen, I'd just get a couple of short, three or four inch
wide boards and actually give it a try before you run out and buy
fancy dovetail guides.

Don't be afraid of screwing it up, cause that is how you learn and
worse comes to worse your going to lose what... an hour of your time.

Go online or get a library book, there are plenty of resources to
explain how you layout a dovetail "and the various styles of dovetail"
follow the directions. Learn how to lay it out, mark the sections
your going to remove, do your cutting and pairing and see what works
and what doesn't.

Regardless of whether you use an inexpensive saw or a $200 saw, or a
LV dovetail guide or a bevel guage or some other marking tool to lay
it out, dovetails "When you first start" are not perfect one cut
wonders. They need to be refined and played with. You only get
that from experience of actually trying it.

If that's not to your liking..

Like I wrote before take the course at LV. It's a fraction of the
cost of their guides, but at least you will get some instruction, and
you will get to use their guides and saws, and that will give you some
experience with the tools and technique, which you can take and adapt
to you, meaning "Do I really need to buy the $200 saw or do I like the
$30 Japanese Dozuki. Do I need the LV dovetail guide or can I
accomplish the same task using a homemade jig".

I've made three dovetail joints to date. The first was close and a
good first attempt. The other two worked, cause I could see what I
did wrong the first time. What did it cost - that $12 dollar Bucky
Brothers back saw. I already had my chisels.

Before I tried it - I was going to buy the LV guide and saw combo.
Now that cash will be put towards something else.


Pat





On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 22:27:44 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

You know what? That's an EXcellent suggestion! I drive by Lee Valley a
couple of times a week--it's hard to keep going past, but I'm going to where
I get the money that I'll eventually leave at Lee Valley. (The dovetail
guides are stylish and won't drain my bank account; I've had my eye on them
for awhile anyway. But I don't "need" them so I haven't bought them.)

From what Mr. Dingley said, it sounds like if your saw meets the minimum
standard of fine teeth (how fine?) and stiffness, you can turn it into a
dovetail saw. I've never changed the set of teeth before, so we're
introducing another educational variable here. I might be better off either
being shown exactly what to do (i.e. in a course), or buying the "right
saw", because I know I'll just get frustrated if I unknowingly screw up the
first step and then have trouble with the second.

- Owen -

"SawDust" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Owen,

See your in the neighborhood...

I'm not a believer that it take's an expensive tool to do an
acceptable job. Find a saw you "like" to use and then learn to use
it and that means "Patience".

I cut my first dovetail with a $12 Bucky Brothers back saw purchased
at Home Depot. Recently I bought a stanley mitre box and saw for
$29. Both saw's work quite well.

I'd like to try out a japanese saw, but I haven't had the opportunity.

Next thing you need is a nice sharp set of chisels.

Just a suggestion and I'll probably be attending in the near future.
Lee Valley "417 to Pinecrest/Greenbank, then one block south to
Morrison drive" they run day courses for hand cut dovetails and a
number of other wood related seminars. There is a small fee, but they
feed you a lite sandwich lunch too. Check out their website for
course details.

Obviously they will be pushing their Veritas Dovetail guides and
matching Japanese style dovetail saw. Eitherway, the technique is
still the same.

Pat








On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in
Ottawa
for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific seminar on
making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to buy an excellent
saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know, $200+ (Cnd). I'll
tell
you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a few zings with a good block
plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful work of art! (Hmmm. Next month
I
think I'll ask him to give me one, to keep as inspiration in my
workshop.)

My own "dovetail saw" is just one of those stupid flush cutting saws that
you can swing the handle around. I think I paid $7 for it. I know it's
no
good for cutting dovetails--I've tried. If everyone here tells me I've
got
to spend really good coin on a hand saw, I'll accept it. But I won't
accept
what a single salesman has to say without checking it out, first.

I'm also willing to practice--I don't expect results like he got; he does
hundreds, if not thousands of dovetail joints a year, and he's been doing
it
for a long time. I like the idea of practicing on shop cabinetry, where
the
only people allowed to criticize my work are other practicing craftsmen.
But I would like to get good enough to move the work upstairs. I like
the
idea of learning to do it by hand for the same or lower price than a jig.
I'm in no particular hurry.

- Owen -

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
wrote:

Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit

Hand dovetails are sawn, not chiselled. The trick to doing them is to
always do them _fast_ and "right first time" - not to faff about with
a chisel afterwards, trying vainly to adjust the fit. Then work on
getting your accuracy better, with practice. Your first batch _will_
be bad - but persevere.

If you can afford the time, make yourself a workshop cabinet with
dovetailed drawers. Get the right saw, then cut them by hand. By the
time you've built a few drawers that way, then you'll be knocking them
out in no time and you'll have lost your fear of the hand-cut
dovetail.
--
Smert' spamionam


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The Lie Nielson video on dovetails shows how to set up a saw as well as how
to cut the dovetails. Good investment. They also will be glad to sell you a
saw if you want one. ;-)

"SawDust" wrote in message
...

Personally Owen, I'd just get a couple of short, three or four inch
wide boards and actually give it a try before you run out and buy
fancy dovetail guides.

snip

Thanks for the advice. I actually have tried making dovetail joints, and I
wasn't happy at all with the results. I'm not giving up, though. As for
the dovetail guide, in my last message I was actually thinking of the
marking guages, not the guide. (I just like the way they look; I'm not
expecting them to really solve any great problems for me.)

Interestingly, I just got back from the library about half an hour ago. I
read Christian B's Aug. 2004 article on dovetail tips in Fine Woodworking
while I was there. He didn't have anything to say about his saw (which I
noticed has a fancy handle), but he makes it look easy enough.

Blast. I just looked at the Lee Valley website, and I missed the dovetail
seminar by 6 days. Even if I'd known about it I wouldn't have been able to
attend. Sigh. Maybe next time. I'll catch the one at this year's Wood
Show instead. I'm already getting excited; looks like the big crunch at
work will be over by then.

- Owen -

"SawDust" wrote in message
...

Personally Owen, I'd just get a couple of short, three or four inch
wide boards and actually give it a try before you run out and buy
fancy dovetail guides.

Don't be afraid of screwing it up, cause that is how you learn and
worse comes to worse your going to lose what... an hour of your time.

Go online or get a library book, there are plenty of resources to
explain how you layout a dovetail "and the various styles of dovetail"
follow the directions. Learn how to lay it out, mark the sections
your going to remove, do your cutting and pairing and see what works
and what doesn't.

Regardless of whether you use an inexpensive saw or a $200 saw, or a
LV dovetail guide or a bevel guage or some other marking tool to lay
it out, dovetails "When you first start" are not perfect one cut
wonders. They need to be refined and played with. You only get
that from experience of actually trying it.

If that's not to your liking..

Like I wrote before take the course at LV. It's a fraction of the
cost of their guides, but at least you will get some instruction, and
you will get to use their guides and saws, and that will give you some
experience with the tools and technique, which you can take and adapt
to you, meaning "Do I really need to buy the $200 saw or do I like the
$30 Japanese Dozuki. Do I need the LV dovetail guide or can I
accomplish the same task using a homemade jig".

I've made three dovetail joints to date. The first was close and a
good first attempt. The other two worked, cause I could see what I
did wrong the first time. What did it cost - that $12 dollar Bucky
Brothers back saw. I already had my chisels.

Before I tried it - I was going to buy the LV guide and saw combo.
Now that cash will be put towards something else.


Pat





On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 22:27:44 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

You know what? That's an EXcellent suggestion! I drive by Lee Valley a
couple of times a week--it's hard to keep going past, but I'm going to
where
I get the money that I'll eventually leave at Lee Valley. (The dovetail
guides are stylish and won't drain my bank account; I've had my eye on
them
for awhile anyway. But I don't "need" them so I haven't bought them.)

From what Mr. Dingley said, it sounds like if your saw meets the minimum
standard of fine teeth (how fine?) and stiffness, you can turn it into a
dovetail saw. I've never changed the set of teeth before, so we're
introducing another educational variable here. I might be better off
either
being shown exactly what to do (i.e. in a course), or buying the "right
saw", because I know I'll just get frustrated if I unknowingly screw up
the
first step and then have trouble with the second.

- Owen -

"SawDust" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Owen,

See your in the neighborhood...

I'm not a believer that it take's an expensive tool to do an
acceptable job. Find a saw you "like" to use and then learn to use
it and that means "Patience".

I cut my first dovetail with a $12 Bucky Brothers back saw purchased
at Home Depot. Recently I bought a stanley mitre box and saw for
$29. Both saw's work quite well.

I'd like to try out a japanese saw, but I haven't had the opportunity.

Next thing you need is a nice sharp set of chisels.

Just a suggestion and I'll probably be attending in the near future.
Lee Valley "417 to Pinecrest/Greenbank, then one block south to
Morrison drive" they run day courses for hand cut dovetails and a
number of other wood related seminars. There is a small fee, but they
feed you a lite sandwich lunch too. Check out their website for
course details.

Obviously they will be pushing their Veritas Dovetail guides and
matching Japanese style dovetail saw. Eitherway, the technique is
still the same.

Pat








On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in
Ottawa
for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific seminar
on
making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to buy an
excellent
saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know, $200+ (Cnd). I'll
tell
you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a few zings with a good
block
plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful work of art! (Hmmm. Next
month
I
think I'll ask him to give me one, to keep as inspiration in my
workshop.)

My own "dovetail saw" is just one of those stupid flush cutting saws t
hat
you can swing the handle around. I think I paid $7 for it. I know
it's
no
good for cutting dovetails--I've tried. If everyone here tells me
I've
got
to spend really good coin on a hand saw, I'll accept it. But I won't
accept
what a single salesman has to say without checking it out, first.

I'm also willing to practice--I don't expect results like he got; he
does
hundreds, if not thousands of dovetail joints a year, and he's been
doing
it
for a long time. I like the idea of practicing on shop cabinetry,
where
the
only people allowed to criticize my work are other practicing
craftsmen.
But I would like to get good enough to move the work upstairs. I like
the
idea of learning to do it by hand for the same or lower price than a
jig.
I'm in no particular hurry.

- Owen -

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"

wrote:

Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit

Hand dovetails are sawn, not chiselled. The trick to doing them is
to
always do them _fast_ and "right first time" - not to faff about
with
a chisel afterwards, trying vainly to adjust the fit. Then work on
getting your accuracy better, with practice. Your first batch
_will_
be bad - but persevere.

If you can afford the time, make yourself a workshop cabinet with
dovetailed drawers. Get the right saw, then cut them by hand. By the
time you've built a few drawers that way, then you'll be knocking
them
out in no time and you'll have lost your fear of the hand-cut
dovetail.
--
Smert' spamionam


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In 80 minutes you could have built the
four drawers with hand cut dovetails.
The best instruction I have ever found on the subject is from Taunton Press.
The
title is something like "Frank Klaus cuts
dovetails".
-Rick