Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them. If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.

I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit - gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with dovetails?

Don

D. J. Dorn wrote:

Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them. If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.

I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit - gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with dovetails?

Don


I don't get nearly as frustrated with my dovetail jig as I do with the
rabbit there helping me cut 'em...

Philski

You know you can always just make a normal through dovetail box, and then
screw a false front onto it to form a rabbetted half-blind look - not sure
if it would take you as long to set-up and remind yourself how to do through
dovetails or not. You can plug the screw holes and it is doubtful anyone
would ever know the difference.

Mike

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
wrote:

Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them. If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.

I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit - gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with dovetails?

Don

Take notes. Lots of notes. Keep them with the jig. (If writing the
notes down is too much of a pain, use a cassette recorder.

You might also consider how long it would take you to improve your
chisel technique compared to the time it takes learning how to set up
the jig. (But then I think hand cut dovetails are really neat and I
can afford a truly lordly disregard for time and effort.)

--RC

If I weren't interested in gardening and Ireland,
I'd automatically killfile any messages mentioning
'bush' or 'Kerry'

I too became frustrated with the set up time of using a jig and router.
With that
in mind, I'm teaching myself (with a lot of help from articles etc..) to cut
my own
by hand. I'm finding it much more enjoyable and quite frankly, I find the
hand cut
joints look better than a machine made joint. YMMV.
Cheers,
cc

D. J. Dorn wrote:

Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them.

A problem we hobbyists encounter all the time. Since we bounce
around
on projects, trying different joinery, different stock thicknesses,
woods
etc. , by the time we get back to repeating a technique the
reacquaintance
with the technique can be like starting all over. But if you use
consistent
stock thicknesses (which I often don't ) you can save prototypes and
use them for future set ups (IF you label them AND put some reminder
notes on them AND store them together somewhere where you can
find them a year or two from now.

The problem with dovetail jigs is that they are several steps removed
from the underlying concept/method. If you hand cut dovetails YOU
do the layout of the pins or tail, marking the sockets to make the
waste area clear and distinct. Before the first saw cut is made you
can see what the dovetails will look like. YOU do the sawing and
chopping
and paring. YOU make "A" fit "B". With dovetail jigs you follow the
instruct-
ions, often not understanding how they relate to the underlying joint
idea because you don't see what the final product will look like
until AFTER you've made all your cuts.

If you can understand the connection/relationship of the jig process
to the handcut method things get a lot clearer and a little, just
a little, easier next time. Having that link between "what" and
"how"
with "why" will help quite a bit.

The other problem with jigs is that you're basically stuck with a
single
depth of cut (once you find the right one for a nice ift) - messy
when
you're playing with different parts thickness for through dovetails.


If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.


Notes! Diagrams! NOTES! And a binder or something to keep them in
so you can find them later. Here's a somewhat extreme example
of that idea - for handcut dovetails incidentally. These are notes
to myself based primarily on Frank Klausz's video. If I do what I
see I end up OK.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/...ilDrawer0.html

I'm doing a coopered door cabinet. You should see all the
diagrams etc. I've done to avoid problems in the next
coopered door project. I suspect that there will be several
"notes to self" when I do the knife hinges.

I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit - gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with dovetails?


You can do dovetails with other power tools. Yeung Chan's book,
Classic Jointes with Power Tools (ISBN 1-57990-279-0) by Lark Books
is $19.95 - a real deal given the price of most woodworking books.
Well worth looking for and adding to your woodworking library.

Hang in there.

charlie b

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

I too became frustrated with the set up time of using a jig and router.
With that
in mind, I'm teaching myself (with a lot of help from articles etc..) to cut
my own
by hand. I'm finding it much more enjoyable and quite frankly, I find the
hand cut
joints look better than a machine made joint. YMMV.
Cheers,
cc



Ahhhh yes...

In my opinion, a handcut dovetail is the most beautiful looking joint
there is - particularly if it has the faint pencil/marking gauge scribe
as seen in the antique furniture of our forefathers...

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
wrote:

Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them. If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.

I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit - gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with dovetails?

Don


What kind of jig are you using?

DamnYankee wrote:

Ahhhh yes...

In my opinion, a handcut dovetail is the most beautiful looking joint
there is - particularly if it has the faint pencil/marking gauge scribe
as seen in the antique furniture of our forefathers...

My preference is for fine joinery that you DON'T see - as is
common in chinese furniture and a mortise and tenoned triple
miter is at the top of the list - so far. The triple miter gives
a nice continuous flow of the grain around a corner - in either
direction and the M&T produces a self aligning, very strong
joint.

I'm not sure when or why visible through or half blind dovetails
became "in", they use to veneer over them so they wouldn't
show - which is kind of cheating. Somehow the Arts & Crafts
movement made the joinery a design element - showing "the
honesty" of the joinery. Greene & Greene (or is it Green &
Green), or was it Stickley, used the "joinery as a design
element" but cheated with faked through tenons etc. to
perhaps hide less than perfect joinery. A through M&T
visually doesn't leave much room for error. But if it's a
blind M&T - with a plug that looks like the end of a through
tenon the actual joint can be pretty sloppy - maybe shimmed
for fit - and still look "precise" - on the OUTSIDE.

Having said all that, handcut dovetails are interesting to
do and are very strong.

charlie b

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
wrote:

Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit

Hand dovetails are sawn, not chiselled. The trick to doing them is to
always do them _fast_ and "right first time" - not to faff about with
a chisel afterwards, trying vainly to adjust the fit. Then work on
getting your accuracy better, with practice. Your first batch _will_
be bad - but persevere.

If you can afford the time, make yourself a workshop cabinet with
dovetailed drawers. Get the right saw, then cut them by hand. By the
time you've built a few drawers that way, then you'll be knocking them
out in no time and you'll have lost your fear of the hand-cut
dovetail.
--
Smert' spamionam

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 02:50:12 GMT, wrote:

You might also consider how long it would take you to improve your
chisel technique compared to the time it takes learning how to set up
the jig. (But then I think hand cut dovetails are really neat and I
can afford a truly lordly disregard for time and effort.)

Try a combo method. band saws and trim (laminate trimmer) routers do
a great job of quickly removing waste, leaving only a quick chisel
swipe for cleanup. No jigs are required. The trim router is
especially good for cleaning out half-blinds. An extra 4" dual square
and a dovetail gauge, like Lee Valley's aluminum can also speed up the
process.

When cutting tails first,, you don't have to get all that perfect with
layout, as long as they're visually appealing. Use the first side as
the pattern for the other three. Mark both fronts and backs with the
sides.

Also, consider the material used for the sides of the drawers.
Basswood is extremely easy to work with hand tools.

Barry

So use a drawer joint cut on a router or shaper instead. Your project, your
choice.

One-offs by hand are the best way to go. For multiple - gimme a jig every
time - and applied fronts.

"D. J. Dorn" wrote in message
...
Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted
again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and
will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough
spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them. If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not
having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.

I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the
strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit -
gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with
dovetails?

Don

In article , charlie b
wrote:

(IF you label them AND put some reminder
notes on them AND store them together somewhere where you can
find them a year or two from now.

Charlie, you have to be joking. There's at least two full afternoons
work for me just to find the bloody things even a few weeks later never
mind "a year or two". ;-)

I tend to put things "somewhere safe" and then...

Gerry

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
calmly ranted:

Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them. If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.

Write the figures on each piece of the drawer, with circles and arrows
and all that fine stuff, D.J.


I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit - gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with dovetails?

Try them by hand. Those jigs take longer to set up than it takes to
do things by hand for most projects. A COD might take longer due to
all the drawers, but that's good practice which won't go away for
the next time you need it. Toss the jig and get Klausz' "Dovetail a
Drawer" video. It's Neander all the way and you'll never look back.

--
"If the promise of the Declaration of Independence is ever to be fulfilled,
it will be the Libertarian Party which fulfills it. If the Constitution is
ever again treated as what it calls itself "The Supreme Law of the Land"
then it will be the Libertarian Party which forces it to be treated that
way. The Republicans and Democrats won’t do it. So the future of the
Libertarian Party is tied to the future of America. If we go down, it
goes down with us. If America gets itself back onto the right course,
it will be our hands on the tiller." --Michael Badnarik

Gerry responds:

you have to be joking. There's at least two full afternoons
work for me just to find the bloody things even a few weeks later never
mind "a year or two". ;-)

I tend to put things "somewhere safe" and then...

It's age. Things disappear. I didn't start doing this until I reached 13 or so,
so it definitely is age related.

Charlie Self
"When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not
hereditary." Thomas Paine

Andy Dingley wrote in message . ..

Hand dovetails are sawn, not chiselled. The trick to doing them is to
always do them _fast_ and "right first time" - not to faff about with
a chisel afterwards, trying vainly to adjust the fit. Then work on
getting your accuracy better, with practice. Your first batch _will_
be bad - but persevere.

If you can afford the time, make yourself a workshop cabinet with
dovetailed drawers. Get the right saw, then cut them by hand. By the
time you've built a few drawers that way, then you'll be knocking them
out in no time and you'll have lost your fear of the hand-cut
dovetail.

I agree with Andy. Unless you are doing a lot of work for a living, I
think it's nearly as easy to cut them by hand. And there are some
kinds of dovetails you can't do with a jig, no matter how good the jig
(for example, a compound miter dovetail, or any dovetail with very
thin pins).

(note: This is just the perspective of an amateur, and I only need to
make a few joints at a time. If I were a pro faced with making 50
drawers on an assembly line, my perspective would no doubt be
different).

I have a Craftsman dovetail saw that's over 20 years old. It was not
expensive, but I can cut perfect dovetails with it. Strange, I've
heard about a woodworker who uses a hacksaw. I tried using a hacksaw
and indeed it does do in a pinch, but a dovetail saw is the way to go.
Buying a dovetail saw will get other uses as well. It is great for
making small cuts, cutting dowels, or making a thin groove. Every
well-equipped shop should have one!

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in Ottawa
for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific seminar on
making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to buy an excellent
saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know, $200+ (Cnd). I'll tell
you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a few zings with a good block
plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful work of art! (Hmmm. Next month I
think I'll ask him to give me one, to keep as inspiration in my workshop.)

My own "dovetail saw" is just one of those stupid flush cutting saws that
you can swing the handle around. I think I paid $7 for it. I know it's no
good for cutting dovetails--I've tried. If everyone here tells me I've got
to spend really good coin on a hand saw, I'll accept it. But I won't accept
what a single salesman has to say without checking it out, first.

I'm also willing to practice--I don't expect results like he got; he does
hundreds, if not thousands of dovetail joints a year, and he's been doing it
for a long time. I like the idea of practicing on shop cabinetry, where the
only people allowed to criticize my work are other practicing craftsmen.
But I would like to get good enough to move the work upstairs. I like the
idea of learning to do it by hand for the same or lower price than a jig.
I'm in no particular hurry.

- Owen -

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
wrote:

Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit

Hand dovetails are sawn, not chiselled. The trick to doing them is to
always do them _fast_ and "right first time" - not to faff about with
a chisel afterwards, trying vainly to adjust the fit. Then work on
getting your accuracy better, with practice. Your first batch _will_
be bad - but persevere.

If you can afford the time, make yourself a workshop cabinet with
dovetailed drawers. Get the right saw, then cut them by hand. By the
time you've built a few drawers that way, then you'll be knocking them
out in no time and you'll have lost your fear of the hand-cut
dovetail.
--
Smert' spamionam


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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"Owen Lawrence" wrote in
:

What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in
Ottawa for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific
seminar on making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to
buy an excellent saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know,
$200+ (Cnd). I'll tell you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a
few zings with a good block plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful
work of art! (Hmmm. Next month I think I'll ask him to give me one,
to keep as inspiration in my workshop.)

If the seminar leader is using an Adria, or an Independence (Lie Nielsen),
then you can be assured that it is a really good saw. Not that there
aren't others, however.

But these two are world class. The Adria is a small custom maker in
British Columbia. LN is in New England.

Then there are the folks who feel that the Japanese pull saws are the cats'
meow. I can never quite get over the mental barrier of pull vs. push. But
then, there are quite a few mental barriers that I haven't gotten over yet.
;-)

Patriarch

Any saw with a thin kerf and a stiff back, if cutting on the push. I've a
Tyzack 8", and it's as pretty as it uses.

If cutting on the pull back stiffening still desirable, use a Japanese
dozuki.


"Owen Lawrence" wrote in message
...
What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in Ottawa
for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific seminar on
making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to buy an excellent
saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know, $200+ (Cnd). I'll tell
you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a few zings with a good block
plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful work of art! (Hmmm. Next month
I
think I'll ask him to give me one, to keep as inspiration in my workshop.)

Do dovetail saws have zero set teeth?

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in Ottawa
for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific seminar on
making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to buy an excellent
saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know, $200+ (Cnd). I'll tell
you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a few zings with a good block
plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful work of art! (Hmmm. Next month I
think I'll ask him to give me one, to keep as inspiration in my workshop.)

Mario Rodriguez teaches dovetail classes here in CT where part of the
class involves tuning a $20 saw to work properly for dovetailing.

Barry

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"?

Well, you can probably cut dovetails with any old piece of junk, so
long as you've re-sharpened it right.

The question is do you want a saw with a lot of set (easily steered,
doesn't cut straight) or a little set (goes where you point it, but
you'd better be right straight off). I started out with a Japanese
full-backed dozuki. These are excellent and accurate saws and everyone
should at least try one. Although they're nominally crosscuts, they
rip pretty well. Recently thought I've acquired an old Preston
dovetail saw, which is a rip-sharpened traditional English back saw, a
lot like the contemporary L-N dovetail saw. I may well switch over.

You don't need a $200 wonder-saw (although I'm sure they're good),
because you can build an equivalent for a lot less. But you do need
the _right_ saw. My dovetail saw is set up for cutting dovetails, and
that's all it gets used for.

I think you could try any old small fine-toothed tenon saw, re-cut and
re-sharpen it as a rip saw, then adjust the set so that it saws
straight. You'll need a sharpening vice (home built from a couple of
bits of scrap wood), a new saw file and a saw set (get the old CK for
fine saws, not the Eclipse). There are plenty of web resources on
re-cutting and re-sharpening saws. So long as it's a well made and
_old_ saw, not a modern induction hardened saw, you can build your own
for much less than a L-N.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 20:23:21 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

I have a Craftsman dovetail saw that's over 20 years old. It was not
expensive, but I can cut perfect dovetails with it. Strange, I've
heard about a woodworker who uses a hacksaw. I tried using a hacksaw
and indeed it does do in a pinch, but a dovetail saw is the way to go.
Buying a dovetail saw will get other uses as well. It is great for
making small cuts, cutting dowels, or making a thin groove. Every
well-equipped shop should have one!

I've got one of the Craftsman ones as well, but I have the opposite of
the problem that many of the woodworkers on this group have- I've
gotten very used to Japanese pull saws, so it's tough for me to saw
with the Craftsman. I've got a nice dozuki saw on my christmas list
as a result!

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in Ottawa
for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific seminar on
making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to buy an excellent
saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know, $200+ (Cnd). I'll tell
you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a few zings with a good block
plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful work of art! (Hmmm. Next month I
think I'll ask him to give me one, to keep as inspiration in my workshop.)

My own "dovetail saw" is just one of those stupid flush cutting saws that
you can swing the handle around. I think I paid $7 for it. I know it's no
good for cutting dovetails--I've tried. If everyone here tells me I've got
to spend really good coin on a hand saw, I'll accept it. But I won't accept
what a single salesman has to say without checking it out, first.

I'm also willing to practice--I don't expect results like he got; he does
hundreds, if not thousands of dovetail joints a year, and he's been doing it
for a long time. I like the idea of practicing on shop cabinetry, where the
only people allowed to criticize my work are other practicing craftsmen.
But I would like to get good enough to move the work upstairs. I like the
idea of learning to do it by hand for the same or lower price than a jig.
I'm in no particular hurry.

- Owen -

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
wrote:

Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit

Hand dovetails are sawn, not chiselled. The trick to doing them is to
always do them _fast_ and "right first time" - not to faff about with
a chisel afterwards, trying vainly to adjust the fit. Then work on
getting your accuracy better, with practice. Your first batch _will_
be bad - but persevere.

If you can afford the time, make yourself a workshop cabinet with
dovetailed drawers. Get the right saw, then cut them by hand. By the
time you've built a few drawers that way, then you'll be knocking them
out in no time and you'll have lost your fear of the hand-cut
dovetail.
--
Smert' spamionam


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.775 / Virus Database: 522 - Release Date: 10/8/2004

In my opinion, a handcut dovetail is the most beautiful looking joint
there is - particularly if it has the faint pencil/marking gauge scribe as
seen in the antique furniture of our forefathers...

40 grit in a 12 amp belt sander will get rid scribe lines in short order.

Barry notes:

Mario Rodriguez teaches dovetail classes here in CT where part of the
class involves tuning a $20 saw to work properly for dovetailing.

Also, his article on tuning such a saw is available for a few bucks from FWW
on-line.

Charlie Self
"When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not
hereditary." Thomas Paine

Hi Owen,

See your in the neighborhood...

I'm not a believer that it take's an expensive tool to do an
acceptable job. Find a saw you "like" to use and then learn to use
it and that means "Patience".

I cut my first dovetail with a $12 Bucky Brothers back saw purchased
at Home Depot. Recently I bought a stanley mitre box and saw for
$29. Both saw's work quite well.

I'd like to try out a japanese saw, but I haven't had the opportunity.

Next thing you need is a nice sharp set of chisels.

Just a suggestion and I'll probably be attending in the near future.
Lee Valley "417 to Pinecrest/Greenbank, then one block south to
Morrison drive" they run day courses for hand cut dovetails and a
number of other wood related seminars. There is a small fee, but they
feed you a lite sandwich lunch too. Check out their website for
course details.

Obviously they will be pushing their Veritas Dovetail guides and
matching Japanese style dovetail saw. Eitherway, the technique is
still the same.

Pat








On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in Ottawa
for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific seminar on
making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to buy an excellent
saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know, $200+ (Cnd). I'll tell
you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a few zings with a good block
plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful work of art! (Hmmm. Next month I
think I'll ask him to give me one, to keep as inspiration in my workshop.)

My own "dovetail saw" is just one of those stupid flush cutting saws that
you can swing the handle around. I think I paid $7 for it. I know it's no
good for cutting dovetails--I've tried. If everyone here tells me I've got
to spend really good coin on a hand saw, I'll accept it. But I won't accept
what a single salesman has to say without checking it out, first.

I'm also willing to practice--I don't expect results like he got; he does
hundreds, if not thousands of dovetail joints a year, and he's been doing it
for a long time. I like the idea of practicing on shop cabinetry, where the
only people allowed to criticize my work are other practicing craftsmen.
But I would like to get good enough to move the work upstairs. I like the
idea of learning to do it by hand for the same or lower price than a jig.
I'm in no particular hurry.

- Owen -

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
wrote:

Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit

Hand dovetails are sawn, not chiselled. The trick to doing them is to
always do them _fast_ and "right first time" - not to faff about with
a chisel afterwards, trying vainly to adjust the fit. Then work on
getting your accuracy better, with practice. Your first batch _will_
be bad - but persevere.

If you can afford the time, make yourself a workshop cabinet with
dovetailed drawers. Get the right saw, then cut them by hand. By the
time you've built a few drawers that way, then you'll be knocking them
out in no time and you'll have lost your fear of the hand-cut
dovetail.
--
Smert' spamionam


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I just bought an Incra jig ultra, haven't tried it yet but looks very
promising. Reasonably price compared to the high end dovetail jigs.

--


My homepage

http://users.adelphia.net/~kyhighland/
"D. J. Dorn" wrote in message
...
Well, me and the dovetail jig spent about two hours getting aquainted
again
so that I can do four drawers. I have the time invested once again and
will
go ahead and do it this way but that's it - I've really had enough
spending
three times the time setting it up as doing them. If it were straight
half-blind dovetails, it wouldn't be so bad, but no - they are rabbited
dovetails with 3/4 and 1/2" material. Between getting depths correct and
even, getting guides set so sides match fronts, etc - it's a PITA. Each
time I tell myself that I understand it and can do it again, but not
having
as good a memory as I think I do, I have to start over with the learning
curve.

I don't really have a choice with a chest of drawers because of the
strength
of the joint, but I'm going to learn another way. Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit -
gotta
use power of some sort I guess. Anyone else get frustrated with
dovetails?

Don

"patriarch " wrote:

snip

But these two are world class. The Adria is a small custom maker in
British Columbia. LN is in New England.

I've used an Adria and didn't like it. In my option the saw was too aggressive
making it difficult to start the cut.

I found an old "H. Disston & Sons" 12 tpi back saw at a flea market that I
picked up for $5.00 intending to have the saw resharpened rip. After cleaning
up the saw I decided to try it out as it was as there was very little set to
the teeth. It's great as it is.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

snip

Toss the jig and get Klausz' "Dovetail a
Drawer" video. It's Neander all the way and you'll never look back.

I dunno - I bought that video about 5 years ago. It's great. Looked at
it over and over and over - still trying to figure out the "monkey"
analogy. Dense I guess.

It's not totally neander - uses a TS to cut & dado the sides.
Something to aspire to tho. I'm always lookin' back at it!

Got a PC dovetail jig - works ok, but it is a PITA to set up and get
exactly right (like equal tails on top/bottom/left/right).

I always wanted to get a dedicated router/bit/collar/jig combo to
eliminate some variables - leaving only stock thickness to worry about.
Since I only do a few drawers a year, I haven't done that.

I keep thinking that I should just get a simple "drawer" lock bit -
after all - who would ever know or care?

We all know the answer to that don't we?

Lou

charlie b wrote:

DamnYankee wrote:


Ahhhh yes...

In my opinion, a handcut dovetail is the most beautiful looking joint
there is - particularly if it has the faint pencil/marking gauge scribe
as seen in the antique furniture of our forefathers...


My preference is for fine joinery that you DON'T see - as is
common in chinese furniture and a mortise and tenoned triple
miter is at the top of the list - so far. The triple miter gives
a nice continuous flow of the grain around a corner - in either
direction and the M&T produces a self aligning, very strong
joint.

I'm not sure when or why visible through or half blind dovetails
became "in", they use to veneer over them so they wouldn't
show - which is kind of cheating. Somehow the Arts & Crafts
movement made the joinery a design element - showing "the
honesty" of the joinery. Greene & Greene (or is it Green &
Green), or was it Stickley, used the "joinery as a design
element" but cheated with faked through tenons etc. to
perhaps hide less than perfect joinery. A through M&T
visually doesn't leave much room for error. But if it's a
blind M&T - with a plug that looks like the end of a through
tenon the actual joint can be pretty sloppy - maybe shimmed
for fit - and still look "precise" - on the OUTSIDE.

Having said all that, handcut dovetails are interesting to
do and are very strong.

charlie b

Agreed! Incidentally, one of Thomas Jefferson's slaves was Jefferson's
cabinetmaker; and the bookcases which were built depicted not only the
dovetails but the scribe marks as well...absolutely beautiful in my
opinion - but that's my preference.

Naturally that would have been taboo in the upcoming Victorian
age...which in my opinion, was the most beautiful, intricate, and
incredible wood butchering occurred. Some of the pieces of furniture
made in that time was beyond impressive.

Peace!

DY

You know what? That's an EXcellent suggestion! I drive by Lee Valley a
couple of times a week--it's hard to keep going past, but I'm going to where
I get the money that I'll eventually leave at Lee Valley. (The dovetail
guides are stylish and won't drain my bank account; I've had my eye on them
for awhile anyway. But I don't "need" them so I haven't bought them.)

From what Mr. Dingley said, it sounds like if your saw meets the minimum
standard of fine teeth (how fine?) and stiffness, you can turn it into a
dovetail saw. I've never changed the set of teeth before, so we're
introducing another educational variable here. I might be better off either
being shown exactly what to do (i.e. in a course), or buying the "right
saw", because I know I'll just get frustrated if I unknowingly screw up the
first step and then have trouble with the second.

- Owen -

"SawDust" wrote in message
...
Hi Owen,

See your in the neighborhood...

I'm not a believer that it take's an expensive tool to do an
acceptable job. Find a saw you "like" to use and then learn to use
it and that means "Patience".

I cut my first dovetail with a $12 Bucky Brothers back saw purchased
at Home Depot. Recently I bought a stanley mitre box and saw for
$29. Both saw's work quite well.

I'd like to try out a japanese saw, but I haven't had the opportunity.

Next thing you need is a nice sharp set of chisels.

Just a suggestion and I'll probably be attending in the near future.
Lee Valley "417 to Pinecrest/Greenbank, then one block south to
Morrison drive" they run day courses for hand cut dovetails and a
number of other wood related seminars. There is a small fee, but they
feed you a lite sandwich lunch too. Check out their website for
course details.

Obviously they will be pushing their Veritas Dovetail guides and
matching Japanese style dovetail saw. Eitherway, the technique is
still the same.

Pat








On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"? I've been to the Wood Show in
Ottawa
for many years straight. There's a guy who gives a terrific seminar on
making dovetails, but he also insists that you've got to buy an excellent
saw, like the one he is selling for, I don't know, $200+ (Cnd). I'll
tell
you though, after twenty minutes or so, and a few zings with a good block
plane, his dovetail joint is a beautiful work of art! (Hmmm. Next month
I
think I'll ask him to give me one, to keep as inspiration in my
workshop.)

My own "dovetail saw" is just one of those stupid flush cutting saws that
you can swing the handle around. I think I paid $7 for it. I know it's
no
good for cutting dovetails--I've tried. If everyone here tells me I've
got
to spend really good coin on a hand saw, I'll accept it. But I won't
accept
what a single salesman has to say without checking it out, first.

I'm also willing to practice--I don't expect results like he got; he does
hundreds, if not thousands of dovetail joints a year, and he's been doing
it
for a long time. I like the idea of practicing on shop cabinetry, where
the
only people allowed to criticize my work are other practicing craftsmen.
But I would like to get good enough to move the work upstairs. I like
the
idea of learning to do it by hand for the same or lower price than a jig.
I'm in no particular hurry.

- Owen -

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:17:41 -0500, "D. J. Dorn"
wrote:

Cutting by hand isn't
really an option because chisel work hasn't been a real strong suit

Hand dovetails are sawn, not chiselled. The trick to doing them is to
always do them _fast_ and "right first time" - not to faff about with
a chisel afterwards, trying vainly to adjust the fit. Then work on
getting your accuracy better, with practice. Your first batch _will_
be bad - but persevere.

If you can afford the time, make yourself a workshop cabinet with
dovetailed drawers. Get the right saw, then cut them by hand. By the
time you've built a few drawers that way, then you'll be knocking them
out in no time and you'll have lost your fear of the hand-cut
dovetail.
--
Smert' spamionam


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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"mark" wrote in message ...
Do dovetail saws have zero set teeth?

No, a Western dovetail saw has very little set to the teeth, but it's
not zero. With too little set it would bind like crazy.

Andy Dingley wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0400, "Owen Lawrence"
wrote:

What do you mean by "the right saw"?

Well, you can probably cut dovetails with any old piece of junk, so
long as you've re-sharpened it right.

As usual Andy, I think your comments here are right on the mark.

The question is do you want a saw with a lot of set (easily steered,
doesn't cut straight) or a little set (goes where you point it, but
you'd better be right straight off). I started out with a Japanese
full-backed dozuki. These are excellent and accurate saws and everyone
should at least try one. Although they're nominally crosscuts, they
rip pretty well. Recently thought I've acquired an old Preston
dovetail saw, which is a rip-sharpened traditional English back saw, a
lot like the contemporary L-N dovetail saw. I may well switch over.

I have three saws, all purchased off of Ebay and resharpened and set
myself (using the directions on the website of Pete Taran). My
favorite by far is a Groves and Sons brass-backed dovetail saw (about
8" long), with an open handle. I also have a Disston #4 (a bit too
large for my liking), and an Atkins backsaw that's a closed-handle saw
approx intermediate in size between the Groves and the Disston. I
think I paid about $40 for the Groves, and around $25-30 for each of
the Disston and the Atkins.

I also have tried the dozuki method ... but I'm afraid I learned on
the Western style and now it seems much more natural. The dozuki
works fine, it just "feels" wrong to me.

You don't need a $200 wonder-saw (although I'm sure they're good),
because you can build an equivalent for a lot less. But you do need
the _right_ saw. My dovetail saw is set up for cutting dovetails, and
that's all it gets used for.

I think you could try any old small fine-toothed tenon saw, re-cut and
re-sharpen it as a rip saw, then adjust the set so that it saws
straight. You'll need a sharpening vice (home built from a couple of
bits of scrap wood), a new saw file and a saw set (get the old CK for
fine saws, not the Eclipse). There are plenty of web resources on
re-cutting and re-sharpening saws. So long as it's a well made and
_old_ saw, not a modern induction hardened saw, you can build your own
for much less than a L-N.

Right on. I even have a cheapie Two Cherries gents saw that works
pretty well. As purchased, it had way too much set and it wasn't
sharp enough. I pressed out most of the set using a vise and
resharpened it, and it's now a passable saw.

Nova wrote in
:

"patriarch " wrote:

snip

But these two are world class. The Adria is a small custom maker in
British Columbia. LN is in New England.

I've used an Adria and didn't like it. In my option the saw was too
aggressive making it difficult to start the cut.

I found an old "H. Disston & Sons" 12 tpi back saw at a flea market
that I picked up for $5.00 intending to have the saw resharpened rip.
After cleaning up the saw I decided to try it out as it was as there
was very little set to the teeth. It's great as it is.

Well, OK, Jack. I can't argue with a neat old Disston, particularly at
that price. But like they say about the lottery, you can't win if you
don't play. I've never been a person who likes flea markets. And if I
ever find them being sold at a woodworking show, I'll likely break out the
crowbar.

I happen to like my Adria quite a bit. It will fight back if forced, but
so will every other finish saw I've ever used. Others, far more
experienced than I, will have their informed opinions.

Patriarch

loutent wrote in :

snip

I keep thinking that I should just get a simple "drawer" lock bit -
after all - who would ever know or care?

My neighbor has a simple "drawer lock bit", purchased based on the demos
and articles. Took Forever and a half to make two simple matching drawers
with that thing. And it's not like he's short on gear, either. I think
he's got one of everything that Incra sells...

The problem is, as someone mentioned earlier, that production methods mean
setup times and testing and consistency that the hobby shop user isn't
likely to view as an effective use of their time and materials. We're just
not doing 300 drawers before the morning break, or working with the setup
guides cut to 1/128" accuracy.

All the more reason to design for 'tweakability' in the product we're
building.

Patriarch

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:49:13 GMT, "mark" wrote:

Do dovetail saws have zero set teeth?

They often do, but they shouldn't!

Lots of people approach dovetails as "the most awkward thing to cut",
so they immediately look for the "most accurate" saw they can find.
Sadly this is often the _smallest_ saw, rather than the most
appropriate. Lots of people are out there trying to saw dovetails with
a gent's backsaw - often with a turned "stick" handle. These have tiny
teeth, thin blades and no set.

If you're sawing, you need to let the chips out somewhere. Sawn timber
expands when you cut it free - noticeably more with softer carcasing
timber than for some hard materials, like ivory or the hardest of
turning woods (these are what most gent's saws were intended for). A
wide kerf helps here, but there are limits to what you can allow
before the saw loses accuracy. Bigger teeth help too, as chip size
isn't directly related to tooth size, but the gullet size is. Even the
saw blade thickness can assist. For all three of these reasons, that
razor-like gent's saw is a pretty poor choice for dovetailing.

Even the "stick" handle doesn't help. One of the major inaccuracies in
sawn dovetails is a neat cut that starts well, but sets off at the
wrong angle. A saw handle that's extended vertically gives a much
better "couple" for controlling this.

Japanese saws are similar to stick handles, but they're an oval handle
rather than round, which helps a little. The action is also for the
handle to "lead" the teeth, rather than to try and push them from
behind. A Japanese saw is thus steered by _moving_ the handle from
side to side, rather than trying to grasp it tightly and rotate it.

Iaido practice is on Thursday nights, round at my place. Sword or saw,
take your pick - it's all the same wrist action.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 05:29:08 GMT, patriarch
wrote:

My neighbor has a simple "drawer lock bit", purchased based on the demos
and articles. Took Forever and a half to make two simple matching drawers
with that thing.

Those are great - my favoured way of making drawers quickly

The trick is to spend forever and a half setting them up, then to
machine a setting block at those settings. Next time you use the block
to set them up correctly, first time.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 20:25:01 -0400, "Kentucky Highlander"
wrote:

I just bought an Incra jig ultra, haven't tried it yet but looks very
promising. Reasonably price compared to the high end dovetail jigs.

Lousy dovetailer, IMHE. Mine has a _lot_ of dust on it these days.
--
Smert' spamionam

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 05:29:08 GMT, patriarch
calmly ranted:

loutent wrote in :

snip

I keep thinking that I should just get a simple "drawer" lock bit -
after all - who would ever know or care?

My neighbor has a simple "drawer lock bit", purchased based on the demos
and articles. Took Forever and a half to make two simple matching drawers
with that thing. And it's not like he's short on gear, either. I think
he's got one of everything that Incra sells...

The problem is, as someone mentioned earlier, that production methods mean
setup times and testing and consistency that the hobby shop user isn't
likely to view as an effective use of their time and materials. We're just
not doing 300 drawers before the morning break, or working with the setup
guides cut to 1/128" accuracy.

All the more reason to design for 'tweakability' in the product we're
building.

OR, one could do the initial setup, make a decent set of drawer
sides, and

1) measure the cutter height
2) mark it on the board
3) save the piece for use as a template.
Repeat for each thickness board you will cut.

OR, simply cut a miter a board properly and save that as a Go/Nogo
gauge. Set up the router/table with that as the height guide. It
oughta be good to within 0.010", don't you think?


--
"Excess regulation and government spending destroy jobs and increase
unemployment. Every regulator we fire results in the creation of over
150 new jobs, enough to hire the ex-regulator, the unemployed, and
the able-bodied poor." -Michael Badnarik

VOTE LIBERTARIAN ON NOVEMBER 2, 2004 OR YOU WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:27:21 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:


The trick is to spend forever and a half setting them up, then to
machine a setting block at those settings. Next time you use the block
to set them up correctly, first time.

This tip is good for any router bit. I have a block with 8 different
sizes of chamfers, rail and stile blocks, raised panel blocks, etc...

Barry