On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:12:29 GMT, "Jim" wrote:

I just bought a saw and dust collector and they both run on 220. The
question I have is, would it be OK for me to use 10/3 and a 30 amp double
breaker and put both devices on the same circuit and be able to run both of
them at the same time? I would not turn them on at the same time. I would
let one get up to speed and then turn the other one on. I want to save the
other 5 spaces in my 100 amp sub panel (in which my electric stove is also
connected to) I have for lights and other outlets for tools. I am in the
process of building a shop in my basement. I just moved into a new home.

One word: subpanel.
Okay, two words, if you spell it: sub panel.

Solves all of your problems. Since your shop is in your basement and
your load center almost assuredly is too, it'll be duck soup.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

I just bought a saw and dust collector and they both run on 220. The
question I have is, would it be OK for me to use 10/3 and a 30 amp double
breaker and put both devices on the same circuit and be able to run both of
them at the same time? I would not turn them on at the same time. I would
let one get up to speed and then turn the other one on. I want to save the
other 5 spaces in my 100 amp sub panel (in which my electric stove is also
connected to) I have for lights and other outlets for tools. I am in the
process of building a shop in my basement. I just moved into a new home.
Thank you all for your opinions.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:hXmWc.218086$eM2.92453@attbi_s51...
I just bought a saw and dust collector and they both run on 220. The
question I have is, would it be OK for me to use 10/3 and a 30 amp double
breaker and put both devices on the same circuit and be able to run both
of
them at the same time? I would not turn them on at the same time. I would
let one get up to speed and then turn the other one on. I want to save
the
other 5 spaces in my 100 amp sub panel (in which my electric stove is also
connected to) I have for lights and other outlets for tools. I am in the
process of building a shop in my basement. I just moved into a new home.
Thank you all for your opinions.


Grizzly states the following in the manual for their G1029Z Dust Collector:
Circuit Breaker: The 2 H.P. motor will draw roughly 12 amps @ 220V. We
recommend using a 20 amp circuit breaker. Circuit breakers rated higher will
not adequately protect the motor.

I suppose this is true with any 220 amp motor.

Gary

"Gary" wrote in message
...

"Jim" wrote in message
news:hXmWc.218086$eM2.92453@attbi_s51...
I just bought a saw and dust collector and they both run on 220. The
question I have is, would it be OK for me to use 10/3 and a 30 amp
double
breaker and put both devices on the same circuit and be able to run both
of
them at the same time? I would not turn them on at the same time. I
would
let one get up to speed and then turn the other one on. I want to save
the
other 5 spaces in my 100 amp sub panel (in which my electric stove is
also
connected to) I have for lights and other outlets for tools. I am in
the
process of building a shop in my basement. I just moved into a new
home.
Thank you all for your opinions.


Grizzly states the following in the manual for their G1029Z Dust
Collector:
Circuit Breaker: The 2 H.P. motor will draw roughly 12 amps @ 220V. We
recommend using a 20 amp circuit breaker. Circuit breakers rated higher
will
not adequately protect the motor.

I suppose this is true with any 220 amp motor.

Gary


Ooops!! I mean 220 VOLT motor, obviously.

We
recommend using a 20 amp circuit breaker. Circuit breakers rated higher will
not adequately protect the motor.

They don't provide overload protection? How did this product get a U/L listing?

There is no harm to running 10/3 rather than 10/2, but unless your machines
actually require a neutral you don't have to.

You have not mentioned what the machines draw, but unless they are huge 30a
should be plenty; I run both of mine on 20a.

You will have to use receptacles rated for 30a, but other than that it seems
pretty straight forward.(though I would rather see two 20a circuits..)

You didn't say what the current ratings were for each of them.

If you do this you need to realize that anything that you hook to a 30 amp
breaker needs to be capable of handling 30 amps. In other words all of the
wiring, outlets, switches, etc. to your saw and your dust collector needs to
be rated at 30 amps as well. That means #10 wire minimum. The reason for
this is that the wiring needs to be able to handle a short circuit anywhere
in the circuit up to the rating of the circuit breaker that's feeding it. If
you use smaller wire and hardware a short circuit will result in a fire and
a wood shop is one of the last places that you want this to happen.

I strongly recommend that you put each one on their own breaker which is
sized correctly for their full load ratings and wiring. If you bought a sub
panel without adequate space you should consider replacing it with a bigger
one.

--
Charley

All outgoing e-mail is scanned for
viruses by Norton Anti Virus 2004
"Jim" wrote in message
news:hXmWc.218086$eM2.92453@attbi_s51...
I just bought a saw and dust collector and they both run on 220. The
question I have is, would it be OK for me to use 10/3 and a 30 amp double
breaker and put both devices on the same circuit and be able to run both
of
them at the same time? I would not turn them on at the same time. I would
let one get up to speed and then turn the other one on. I want to save
the
other 5 spaces in my 100 amp sub panel (in which my electric stove is also
connected to) I have for lights and other outlets for tools. I am in the
process of building a shop in my basement. I just moved into a new home.
Thank you all for your opinions.

Awright Greg, let's see if an extreme example will clear this up for you.
Let's say you could find a 1000 amp breaker and installed it on the circuit
in question. Now let's say that something goes horribly wrong with the
motor and it starts drawing 200 amps ("cause it found a wrong ground or
something) The wiring starts to catch fire along with the surrounding
structure, but the 1000 amp breaker (or even the unrecommended 30 amp
breaker) thinks everything is just dandy, so it keeps that (or some other
excessive) current supplied to the fault in progress. Now if you had minded
the warning that 20 amp protection would be correct and proper, it would
have tripped and the fire department wouldn't be on the way.

Hope this helps

"Greg" wrote in message
...
We
recommend using a 20 amp circuit breaker. Circuit breakers rated higher
will
not adequately protect the motor.

They don't provide overload protection? How did this product get a U/L
listing?

Awright Greg, let's see if an extreme example will clear this up for you.
Let's say you could find a 1000 amp breaker

I said earlier, it is clear that article 430 may simply be too complicated for
most folks but I will try again.
Start with the nameplate (FLA) rating of the motor. (for example 16a)
Multiply this number by 1.25. That is the ampacity requred for the wire. You
can use table 310.16 for this (14ga is OK for 20a at 60c)

Now take the FLA and multiply it by 2.5, that is the maximum size of the branch
circuit overcurrent device. (40a)
Some motors can have higher O/C devices, up to 11 times the FLA but you folks
are confused enough.
You have only sized the wire and the branch circuit O/C device at this point

NOW you need an "overload" device sized to the motor and some kind of thermal
protection (may be the same thing)
This is what protects the motor from burning up. Usually that is built into the
motor or the equipment the motor is in.
It may also be part of the motor starter assembly.

You also need a disconnect.

In your case the motor would have to have a 400a FLA to allow a 1000a breaker
and you would need 1500Kcmil wire although most folks would just parallel two
350Kcmil.

be rated at 30 amps as well. That means #10 wire minimum. The reason for
this is that the wiring needs to be able to handle a short circuit anywhere

You again are confusing overload current and short circuit current. A 500'
piece of #14/2 will still operate a 40a breaker with a bolted fault.
Shorts are not the problem.
If that was true you couldn't plug an 18ga lamp cord into a 15/20a circuit.

"toller" wrote in message ...
There is no harm to running 10/3 rather than 10/2, but unless your machines
actually require a neutral you don't have to.

You have not mentioned what the machines draw, but unless they are huge 30a
should be plenty; I run both of mine on 20a.

You will have to use receptacles rated for 30a, but other than that it seems
pretty straight forward.(though I would rather see two 20a circuits..)

He didnt mention with ground, It needs a ground of course.
I would check on the distance and current draw with a meter. I use all
12/3 with a ground. All my tools are within 30 feet of the panel.
A cheap amp-probe can be a real eye opener on some of these 5 HP
motors. It can also be used to tell if the start capacitor is bad on a
motor.

"Charley" wrote in message
r.com...
You didn't say what the current ratings were for each of them.

If you do this you need to realize that anything that you hook to a 30 amp
breaker needs to be capable of handling 30 amps. In other words all of the
wiring, outlets, switches, etc. to your saw and your dust collector needs
to
be rated at 30 amps as well. That means #10 wire minimum. The reason for
this is that the wiring needs to be able to handle a short circuit
anywhere
in the circuit up to the rating of the circuit breaker that's feeding it.
If
you use smaller wire and hardware a short circuit will result in a fire
and
a wood shop is one of the last places that you want this to happen.

I strongly recommend that you put each one on their own breaker which is
sized correctly for their full load ratings and wiring. If you bought a
sub
panel without adequate space you should consider replacing it with a
bigger
one.

I agree that 2 separate circuits is the best way, but you are wrong to say
everything must be 30a. It only has to be 30a up to the receptacle. After
that, 20a is okay, assuming the machines are less than 20a. (In fact,
rereading the code, I am not even sure if the receptacle has to be 30a,
though it seems prudent.)

I was under the impression that your house breaker is only supposed to
protect the house wiring, not the device? Doesn't Grizzly have any
overload protection? Mark L.

Gary wrote:

Grizzly states the following in the manual for their G1029Z Dust Collector:
Circuit Breaker: The 2 H.P. motor will draw roughly 12 amps @ 220V. We
recommend using a 20 amp circuit breaker. Circuit breakers rated higher will
not adequately protect the motor.

I suppose this is true with any 220 amp motor.

Gary

I am the original person who posted this. I have the Grizzly G0444Z 220
volt table saw and the Grizzly 220 volt G1029Z dust collector. Both are
rated at 12 amps each. What I would like to do is have them both on the
same circuit. I was confused as to using a 30 amp brkr with 10/3 wire. I
thought 12/3 with a 20 amp brkr would handle it if I turned each on
separately and let it get up to speed before turning on the other. It
appears that the best solution would be to wire them separately on their own
circuit. It is somewhat confusing to me.
Thanks again for your help.


"toller" wrote in message
...

"Charley" wrote in message
r.com...
You didn't say what the current ratings were for each of them.

If you do this you need to realize that anything that you hook to a 30
amp
breaker needs to be capable of handling 30 amps. In other words all of
the
wiring, outlets, switches, etc. to your saw and your dust collector
needs
to
be rated at 30 amps as well. That means #10 wire minimum. The reason for
this is that the wiring needs to be able to handle a short circuit
anywhere
in the circuit up to the rating of the circuit breaker that's feeding
it.
If
you use smaller wire and hardware a short circuit will result in a fire
and
a wood shop is one of the last places that you want this to happen.

I strongly recommend that you put each one on their own breaker which is
sized correctly for their full load ratings and wiring. If you bought a
sub
panel without adequate space you should consider replacing it with a
bigger
one.

I agree that 2 separate circuits is the best way, but you are wrong to say
everything must be 30a. It only has to be 30a up to the receptacle.
After
that, 20a is okay, assuming the machines are less than 20a. (In fact,
rereading the code, I am not even sure if the receptacle has to be 30a,
though it seems prudent.)

"Jim" wrote in message
news:nUsWc.57134$mD.48161@attbi_s02...
I am the original person who posted this. I have the Grizzly G0444Z 220
volt table saw and the Grizzly 220 volt G1029Z dust collector. Both are
rated at 12 amps each. What I would like to do is have them both on the
same circuit. I was confused as to using a 30 amp brkr with 10/3 wire. I
thought 12/3 with a 20 amp brkr would handle it if I turned each on
separately and let it get up to speed before turning on the other. It
appears that the best solution would be to wire them separately on their
own
circuit. It is somewhat confusing to me.
Thanks again for your help.


"toller" wrote in message
...

"Charley" wrote in message
r.com...
You didn't say what the current ratings were for each of them.

If you do this you need to realize that anything that you hook to a 30
amp
breaker needs to be capable of handling 30 amps. In other words all of
the
wiring, outlets, switches, etc. to your saw and your dust collector
needs
to
be rated at 30 amps as well. That means #10 wire minimum. The reason
for
this is that the wiring needs to be able to handle a short circuit
anywhere
in the circuit up to the rating of the circuit breaker that's feeding
it.
If
you use smaller wire and hardware a short circuit will result in a
fire
and
a wood shop is one of the last places that you want this to happen.

I strongly recommend that you put each one on their own breaker which
is
sized correctly for their full load ratings and wiring. If you bought
a
sub
panel without adequate space you should consider replacing it with a
bigger
one.

I agree that 2 separate circuits is the best way, but you are wrong to
say
everything must be 30a. It only has to be 30a up to the receptacle.
After
that, 20a is okay, assuming the machines are less than 20a. (In fact,
rereading the code, I am not even sure if the receptacle has to be 30a,
though it seems prudent.)




Congrats on your choice of equipment. I too wonder, why couldn't you use
the 30 amp circuit as a branch circuit, run it into a subpanel with two 20
amp breakers, and the run your 2 220v 20amp outlets from there.
2X12amps=24amps, well within the 30amp breaker's operating range. Just
don't start 'em both at the same time.

Gary

I too wonder, why couldn't you use
the 30 amp circuit as a branch circuit,

It all gets back to whether Grizzly uses internal overload protection in their
machines as they should.

On the subject of running 3 conductors + ground. What might you want to
run on from there? Someday you may want some 110 at that location.
Planning to go back to the panel or just tap into what you've got. I
don't think many have kicked themselves because they ran too large or
too many conductors the first time. No law against installing a fused
switch or breaker at the location if the device needs more protection.

bob g.

jack wrote:

"toller" wrote in message ...

There is no harm to running 10/3 rather than 10/2, but unless your machines
actually require a neutral you don't have to.

You have not mentioned what the machines draw, but unless they are huge 30a
should be plenty; I run both of mine on 20a.

You will have to use receptacles rated for 30a, but other than that it seems
pretty straight forward.(though I would rather see two 20a circuits..)


He didnt mention with ground, It needs a ground of course.
I would check on the distance and current draw with a meter. I use all
12/3 with a ground. All my tools are within 30 feet of the panel.
A cheap amp-probe can be a real eye opener on some of these 5 HP
motors. It can also be used to tell if the start capacitor is bad on a
motor.

Your dust collector is likely to draw its full rated current most of the
time. The saw will only draw max when heavily loaded. If the DC is
drawing 12 amps constant and you try ripping that 8/4 piece of oak and
the saw hits its 12 amps, sounds like your 20 amp breaker will trip, no?

bob g.

Jim wrote:

I am the original person who posted this. I have the Grizzly G0444Z 220
volt table saw and the Grizzly 220 volt G1029Z dust collector. Both are
rated at 12 amps each. What I would like to do is have them both on the
same circuit. I was confused as to using a 30 amp brkr with 10/3 wire. I
thought 12/3 with a 20 amp brkr would handle it if I turned each on
separately and let it get up to speed before turning on the other. It
appears that the best solution would be to wire them separately on their own
circuit. It is somewhat confusing to me.
Thanks again for your help.


"toller" wrote in message
...

"Charley" wrote in message
.rr.com...

You didn't say what the current ratings were for each of them.

If you do this you need to realize that anything that you hook to a 30

amp

breaker needs to be capable of handling 30 amps. In other words all of

the

wiring, outlets, switches, etc. to your saw and your dust collector

needs

to

be rated at 30 amps as well. That means #10 wire minimum. The reason for
this is that the wiring needs to be able to handle a short circuit

anywhere

in the circuit up to the rating of the circuit breaker that's feeding

it.

If

you use smaller wire and hardware a short circuit will result in a fire

and

a wood shop is one of the last places that you want this to happen.

I strongly recommend that you put each one on their own breaker which is
sized correctly for their full load ratings and wiring. If you bought a

sub

panel without adequate space you should consider replacing it with a

bigger

one.


I agree that 2 separate circuits is the best way, but you are wrong to say
everything must be 30a. It only has to be 30a up to the receptacle.

After

that, 20a is okay, assuming the machines are less than 20a. (In fact,
rereading the code, I am not even sure if the receptacle has to be 30a,
though it seems prudent.)

If you are going to run a sub, make the feed as big as you can, maybe 40 at
least.
I don't think you can buy a tool without thermal overload protection now.
I don't mind blowing the panel breaker in a stall. It keeps the motor a
little cooler, with less stress on the windings and insulation.


OOPS, is there a misunderstanding here? I think it's unlikely the DC draws
12A at 240V?? That's over three HP! The saw must be a two HP??
Wilson

"Gary" wrote in message
...

"Jim" wrote in message
news:nUsWc.57134$mD.48161@attbi_s02...
I am the original person who posted this. I have the Grizzly G0444Z 220
volt table saw and the Grizzly 220 volt G1029Z dust collector. Both are
rated at 12 amps each. What I would like to do is have them both on the
same circuit. I was confused as to using a 30 amp brkr with 10/3 wire.
I
thought 12/3 with a 20 amp brkr would handle it if I turned each on
separately and let it get up to speed before turning on the other. It
appears that the best solution would be to wire them separately on their
own
circuit. It is somewhat confusing to me.
Thanks again for your help.


"toller" wrote in message
...

"Charley" wrote in message
r.com...
You didn't say what the current ratings were for each of them.

If you do this you need to realize that anything that you hook to a
30
amp
breaker needs to be capable of handling 30 amps. In other words all
of
the
wiring, outlets, switches, etc. to your saw and your dust collector
needs
to
be rated at 30 amps as well. That means #10 wire minimum. The reason
for
this is that the wiring needs to be able to handle a short circuit
anywhere
in the circuit up to the rating of the circuit breaker that's
feeding
it.
If
you use smaller wire and hardware a short circuit will result in a
fire
and
a wood shop is one of the last places that you want this to happen.

I strongly recommend that you put each one on their own breaker
which
is
sized correctly for their full load ratings and wiring. If you
bought
a
sub
panel without adequate space you should consider replacing it with a
bigger
one.

I agree that 2 separate circuits is the best way, but you are wrong to
say
everything must be 30a. It only has to be 30a up to the receptacle.
After
that, 20a is okay, assuming the machines are less than 20a. (In fact,
rereading the code, I am not even sure if the receptacle has to be
30a,
though it seems prudent.)




Congrats on your choice of equipment. I too wonder, why couldn't you use
the 30 amp circuit as a branch circuit, run it into a subpanel with two 20
amp breakers, and the run your 2 220v 20amp outlets from there.
2X12amps=24amps, well within the 30amp breaker's operating range. Just
don't start 'em both at the same time.

Gary

"Bob Jones" writes:
Awright Greg, let's see if an extreme example will clear this up for you.
Let's say you could find a 1000 amp breaker and installed it on the
circuit
in question. Now let's say that something goes horribly wrong with the
motor and it starts drawing 200 amps ("cause it found a wrong ground or
something) The wiring starts to catch fire along with the surrounding
structure, but the 1000 amp breaker (or even the unrecommended 30 amp
breaker) thinks everything is just dandy, so it keeps that (or some other
excessive) current supplied to the fault in progress. Now if you had
minded
the warning that 20 amp protection would be correct and proper, it would
have tripped and the fire department wouldn't be on the way.

I'm certain your description above is well intended; however, what it truly
illustrates is your lack of the NEC and it's intended purpose.

The motor you describe could turn into burned toast, the NEC could care less
as long as the insulation on the conductors feeding the motor is not
damaged.

Circuit protective devices are designed to protect insulation on conductors,
not the loads such as a motor, that consume the power.

Overload devices provide that function.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

"Jim" writes:
I just bought a saw and dust collector and they both run on 220. The
question I have is, would it be OK for me to use 10/3 and a 30 amp double
breaker and put both devices on the same circuit and be able to run both
of
them at the same time?
snip

NO.

One load, one circuit protective device.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

I am the original person who posted this. I have the Grizzly G0444Z 220
volt table saw and the Grizzly 220 volt G1029Z dust collector. Both are
rated at 12 amps each. What I would like to do is have them both on the
same circuit. I was confused as to using a 30 amp brkr with 10/3 wire.
I
thought 12/3 with a 20 amp brkr would handle it if I turned each on
separately and let it get up to speed before turning on the other. It
appears that the best solution would be to wire them separately on their
own
circuit. It is somewhat confusing to me.
Thanks again for your help.

Your scheme will work fine and be perfectly legal (with the normal
disclaimers about it being installed correctly and all that...)

However there are two reasons to consider having two 20a circuits.
1) Grizzly is apparently a bit careless in their motor design and is
concerned that it can suffer damaging overloads under some circumstances
(perhaps a stalled motor?). They believe the damage is less likely on a 20a
breaker than on a 30a breaker. This should not be an issue, but presumably
they have had problems.
2) It is preferable not to have 20a components (cordsets, outlets, plugs) on
a 30a circuit. It is legal, and is comparable to having a 10a lampcord
plugged into a 20a circuit. It is done all the time, but is undesirable.

I think that is as clear as it gets. Use two circuits if you can; one if
you can't. Use 4wire if you want, but since you have other circuits
available for 120v, there is little point to it.

If you look at the Article 430 rules for 2 motors on one circuit and they are
12aFLA you come up with an ampacity of 27a so 30 is the "right" solution
125% of the biggest added to the other one.
Assuming he will have the DC come on with the saw I don't even see Grizzly's
concern being an issue. There will only be 6a "left over" with both on a 30 and
one on a 20 would have 8a left over.
Since the saw will be started unloaded and a DC doesn't really draw much power
until it really starts moving air I doubt inrush will be that big a problem.

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:21:47 GMT, "toller" wrote:


2) It is preferable not to have 20a components (cordsets, outlets, plugs) on
a 30a circuit. It is legal, and is comparable to having a 10a lampcord
plugged into a 20a circuit. It is done all the time, but is undesirable.

That's utter nonsense. There are loads of 1 and 2 A devices that are
INTENDED to be plugged into such circuits, such as answering machines,
clock radios, electric toothbrushes, coffee grinders, night lights,
speakers for your computer, caller ID boxes, battery chargers, and
myriad other small appliances and devices. There is no necessity nor
provision for anything other than standard 15 or 20 A circuits for
those devices.

To repeat, so perhaps you will understand: the circuit breaker is to
protect the wire, not the load or device. There are no 1, 2, 5, or
other small circuit breakers to do as you're alluding to in your
statement.

If you believe there is something improper about plugging a 5 A device
into a 30 A circuit, you should recuse yourself from dispensing any
further opinions in electrical threads.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

If you believe there is something improper about plugging a 5 A device
into a 30 A circuit, you should recuse yourself from dispensing any
further opinions in electrical threads.

"Your scheme will work fine and be perfectly legal".
That sounds to you like I think it is improper?

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
hlink.net...


I'm certain your description above is well intended; however, what it
truly
illustrates is your lack of the NEC and it's intended purpose.

The motor you describe could turn into burned toast, the NEC could care
less
as long as the insulation on the conductors feeding the motor is not
damaged.

Circuit protective devices are designed to protect insulation on
conductors,
not the loads such as a motor, that consume the power.

Overload devices provide that function.


Lew - your point is well taken and it has never been disputed in any of the
recent threads on this topic. However - the discussions have not been about
what NEC is intending to do. The electricians (or seemingly so) in the
group keep referencing NEC and the fact that NEC intends to protect the wire
not the device. The points that have been made about protecting the motors
represent the *owner's* concerns. Not everything in the world of
electricity is covered by NEC's interest. Owners have other interests
besides their house wire. To date, I've not heard any of the electricians
argue that the statements about properly sizing a circuit to the load is
improper. The owner is concerned for his saw motor. It appears from the
Griz literature that he should be. Maybe there is an error in the Griz
literature, but to repeat that NEC only cares about wire insulation really
does nothing to further understandings in these threads.
--

-Mike-

To date, I've not heard any of the electricians
argue that the statements about properly sizing a circuit to the load is
improper.

I addressed that and pointed out 2 12a motors on one 30a circuit will actually
provide MORE protection than one on a 20a.
The reality is the NEC does talk about protecting the motor. That is the
overLOAD protection that should be integral to the equipment.
If your overloaded motor is tripping the wall breaker you either have the
circuit overcurrent device sized TOO SMALL or the overload protection is not
working. The overload should trip first if things are sized "properly".

I am confused after reading all the replies.
So folks what should I do for my Grizzly 12 amp saw & 12 amp DC, go with (2)
220 separate 20 amp breakers 1 for each device using 12/3 for each, or go
with 1 220 30 amp breaker using 10/3 cable and putting them both on the same
circuit?
Thanks again.


"Greg" wrote in message
...
To date, I've not heard any of the electricians
argue that the statements about properly sizing a circuit to the load is
improper.

I addressed that and pointed out 2 12a motors on one 30a circuit will
actually
provide MORE protection than one on a 20a.
The reality is the NEC does talk about protecting the motor. That is the
overLOAD protection that should be integral to the equipment.
If your overloaded motor is tripping the wall breaker you either have the
circuit overcurrent device sized TOO SMALL or the overload protection is
not
working. The overload should trip first if things are sized "properly".

I am confused after reading all the replies.
So folks what should I do for my Grizzly 12 amp saw & 12 amp DC, go with (2)
220 separate 20 amp breakers 1 for each device using 12/3 for each, or go
with 1 220 30 amp breaker using 10/3 cable and putting them both on the same
circuit?
Thanks again.



Your choice, either way will do fine and both are legal. A am still not sure
why you want 12/3 or 10/3. You can use 2 wire with ground. Just reidentify the
white with some black tape.

I msut have missed the earlier messages but I would use two 20 amp
circuits. Two 12 amp motors starting at the same time would probably
trip a 30 amp breaker. Thats assuming the 12 amps is running amps as
oppossed to starting amps. See NEC 430 for code requirements for
motors.

MikeM


On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 04:30:19 GMT, "Jim" wrote:

I am confused after reading all the replies.
So folks what should I do for my Grizzly 12 amp saw & 12 amp DC, go with (2)
220 separate 20 amp breakers 1 for each device using 12/3 for each, or go
with 1 220 30 amp breaker using 10/3 cable and putting them both on the same
circuit?
Thanks again.


"Greg" wrote in message
...
To date, I've not heard any of the electricians
argue that the statements about properly sizing a circuit to the load is
improper.

I addressed that and pointed out 2 12a motors on one 30a circuit will
actually
provide MORE protection than one on a 20a.
The reality is the NEC does talk about protecting the motor. That is the
overLOAD protection that should be integral to the equipment.
If your overloaded motor is tripping the wall breaker you either have the
circuit overcurrent device sized TOO SMALL or the overload protection is
not
working. The overload should trip first if things are sized "properly".

I previously wrote:
Circuit protective devices are designed to protect insulation on
conductors,
not the loads such as a motor, that consume the power.

Overload devices provide that function.

"Mike Marlow" writes:

Lew - your point is well taken and it has never been disputed in any of
the
recent threads on this topic. However - the discussions have not been
about
what NEC is intending to do. The electricians (or seemingly so) in the
group keep referencing NEC and the fact that NEC intends to protect the
wire
not the device. The points that have been made about protecting the
motors
represent the *owner's* concerns.
snip

Read my LIPS:

Overload devices provide that function.



--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

"Jim" writes:
I am confused after reading all the replies.
So folks what should I do for my Grizzly 12 amp saw & 12 amp DC, go with
(2)
220 separate 20 amp breakers 1 for each device using 12/3 for each, or go
with 1 220 30 amp breaker using 10/3 cable and putting them both on the
same
circuit?

Use a 2P-30A c'bkr and #10 AWG for each device.

Eliminates any inrush problems and keeps the voltage drop down.

--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

"Greg" wrote in message
...
To date, I've not heard any of the electricians
argue that the statements about properly sizing a circuit to the load is
improper.

I addressed that and pointed out 2 12a motors on one 30a circuit will
actually
provide MORE protection than one on a 20a.
The reality is the NEC does talk about protecting the motor. That is the
overLOAD protection that should be integral to the equipment.
If your overloaded motor is tripping the wall breaker you either have the
circuit overcurrent device sized TOO SMALL or the overload protection is
not
working. The overload should trip first if things are sized "properly".

Aha - my apologies Greg - I missed that when you first posted it. I've been
following the threads on this pretty closely but then again sometimes
earthlink (sometimes...???) drops posts along the way.

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:22:18 GMT, "toller" wrote:



If you believe there is something improper about plugging a 5 A device
into a 30 A circuit, you should recuse yourself from dispensing any
further opinions in electrical threads.

"Your scheme will work fine and be perfectly legal".
That sounds to you like I think it is improper?

From the text of your post to which I had responded:

2) It is preferable not to have 20a components (cordsets, outlets, plugs) on
a 30a circuit. It is legal, and is comparable to having a 10a lampcord
plugged into a 20a circuit. It is done all the time, but is undesirable.

"Preferable not to have" and "undesirable," your words, are virtually
synonomous with "improper" in the context of your message. So, yes,
that sounds to me like you think it is improper.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:22:18 GMT, "toller" wrote:



If you believe there is something improper about plugging a 5 A device
into a 30 A circuit, you should recuse yourself from dispensing any
further opinions in electrical threads.

"Your scheme will work fine and be perfectly legal".
That sounds to you like I think it is improper?

From the text of your post to which I had responded:

2) It is preferable not to have 20a components (cordsets, outlets, plugs)
on
a 30a circuit. It is legal, and is comparable to having a 10a lampcord
plugged into a 20a circuit. It is done all the time, but is undesirable.

"Preferable not to have" and "undesirable," your words, are virtually
synonomous with "improper" in the context of your message. So, yes,
that sounds to me like you think it is improper.

Is it English or reason that you have problems with?
1) What does "synonomous" mean? There is a word "synonymous" in English; is
that what you mean? Probably not, since it would be an incorrect usage.
2) If there are more than one way to do something, one way will probably be
"preferable" or "desirable". That certainly does not make the other ways
"improper"; now does it?

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:48:50 GMT, "toller" wrote:

There is no harm to running 10/3 rather than 10/2, but unless your machines
actually require a neutral you don't have to.

[snip]

My understanding is that code requires 3 + ground even if the device does
not. Others here seem more qualified for a definitive answer on this.

"toller"

It is legal, and is comparable to having a 10a lampcord
plugged into a 20a circuit. It is done all the time, but is undesirable.

This is why I wired my entire house with the same 4 ga wire coming in from
the utility pole. Using similar logic, one thing led to another. Works
great now, but I have yet to get to changing my lamp cords to 4 ga. I'll
get there, though. Safest house on the block.

- Nate

toller wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:22:18 GMT, "toller" wrote:



If you believe there is something improper about plugging a 5 A device
into a 30 A circuit, you should recuse yourself from dispensing any
further opinions in electrical threads.

"Your scheme will work fine and be perfectly legal".
That sounds to you like I think it is improper?

From the text of your post to which I had responded:

2) It is preferable not to have 20a components (cordsets, outlets,
plugs)
on
a 30a circuit. It is legal, and is comparable to having a 10a lampcord
plugged into a 20a circuit. It is done all the time, but is
undesirable.

"Preferable not to have" and "undesirable," your words, are virtually
synonomous with "improper" in the context of your message. So, yes,
that sounds to me like you think it is improper.

Is it English or reason that you have problems with?
1) What does "synonomous" mean? There is a word "synonymous" in English;
is that what you mean? Probably not, since it would be an incorrect usage.
2) If there are more than one way to do something, one way will probably
be
"preferable" or "desirable". That certainly does not make the other ways
"improper"; now does it?

Geez, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Do you realize that
you're coming across as something of a ****** with this kind of hair
splitting do you not? Something that is improper is something that one
shouldn't do. Something that is undesirable is something that one
shouldn't do. Regardless of the exact terminology you use, it appears that
you believe that plugging one's desk lamp, answering machine, or other
small, low powered device into a 20 amp socket is something that one
shouldn't do. If you believe otherwise then you should clarify this rather
than arguing that your words mean something other than most people will
percieve them to mean.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Nate B" wrote in message
...

"toller"

It is legal, and is comparable to having a 10a lampcord
plugged into a 20a circuit. It is done all the time, but is
undesirable.

This is why I wired my entire house with the same 4 ga wire coming in from
the utility pole. Using similar logic, one thing led to another. Works
great now, but I have yet to get to changing my lamp cords to 4 ga. I'll
get there, though. Safest house on the block.

Are you a moron, or do you just play on the internet?
If you have no circuit breakers in your house, then yes, you would have to
wire the whole house in with #4.
You have a breaker box that enables you to use smaller wires, since they are
protected by breakers.
But you probably knew this already and were just being childish.

My understanding is that code requires 3 + ground even if the device does
not. Others here seem more qualified for a definitive answer on this.

That is simply not true. You only need to provide conductors to serve the load
plus a grounding path. If you have a neutral load on a 240v circuit, you need 4
wires or a raceway system that provides the grounding path and 3 wires.
Otherwise 3 are fine. The only issue is reidentifying the white wire to another
color in a 2 wire plus ground cable.
White green and grey are reserved, any other color is OK for the ungrounded
conductors.