On 3/9/2019 9:38 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 08:47:19 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
...

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators.
Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators.

At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd
largest power supplier in the US tells me.

While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases)
used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator
cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal
conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and
commensurate reduction in size/expense.

Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used
as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go
boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get.

Sounds that way, doesn't it?

But is so.

He is inflammable, true, but as a gas has lousy heat transfer properties
in comparison and so is comparatively poor for the purpose. LIQUID He
is used for superconducting applications, but that's not this
application at all.

And, "no, I'm not making this up!" -- spent 30+ years, first in
commercial nuclear generation and then transitioned over to fossil...

https://www.power-eng.com/articles/print/volume-113/issue-6/features/hydrogen-cools-well-but-safety-is-crucial.html

--

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 10:38:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 08:47:19 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
...

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators.
Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators.

At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd
largest power supplier in the US tells me.

While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases)
used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator
cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal
conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and
commensurate reduction in size/expense.v

Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used
as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go
boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get.

I don't know about that. I remember the time I called him an A-hole. He reacted
rather violently. ;-)

On 3/9/2019 9:48 AM, dpb wrote:
On 3/9/2019 9:38 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 08:47:19 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
...

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their
generators.
Â* Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the
generators.

At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the
3rd
largest power supplier in the US tells me.

While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases)
used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator
cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal
conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and
commensurate reduction in size/expense.

Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used
as the fuel also).Â* He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go
boom.Â* He is as non-reactive as you can get.

Sounds that way, doesn't it?Â*

But is so.

He is inflammable, true, but as a gas has lousy heat transfer properties
in comparison and so is comparatively poor for the purpose.Â* LIQUID He
is used for superconducting applications, but that's not this
application at all.

And, "no, I'm not making this up!" -- spent 30+ years, first in
commercial nuclear generation and then transitioned over to fossil...

https://www.power-eng.com/articles/print/volume-113/issue-6/features/hydrogen-cools-well-but-safety-is-crucial.html

Correction. Inflammable and flammable are synonyms. I believe the word
you're looking for is nonflammable.

On 3/9/2019 10:32 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
....

Correction.Â* Inflammable and flammable are synonyms.Â* I believe the word
you're looking for is nonflammable.

Good catch, thanks. Was _really_ intending "inert", but sometimes the
fingers just go on their own, it seems.

--dpb

On 3/9/19 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
...

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their
generators. Â*Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out
the generators.

At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the
3rd largest power supplier in the US tells me.

While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases)
used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator
cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal
conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and
commensurate reduction in size/expense.

--

Ok.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 3/9/19 10:32 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 3/9/2019 9:48 AM, dpb wrote:


Correction.Â* Inflammable and flammable are synonyms.Â* I believe the word
you're looking for is nonflammable.

That always cracked me up.
I always have to remember inflammable means able to be inflamed.
I usually think of it as inflammable = in-flames.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 3/9/2019 11:06 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/9/19 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
...

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their
generators. Â*Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out
the generators.

At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the
3rd largest power supplier in the US tells me.

While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases)
used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for
generator cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat
and thermal conductivity allows a significant improvement in
efficiency and commensurate reduction in size/expense.

--

Ok.

I remember being exceedingly surprised and amazed when I was first
introduced to this as a young'un not long out of school on first
exposure to the real plant environment as opposed to running reactor
core power distribution calculations for power peaking limits...

That was 50 year ago now at what was at the time the highest thermal
efficiency coal-fired generating station in the world...TVA's Bull Run
station just outside Oak Ridge, TN. It was one of the very first
super-critical steam cycle plants.

Had been to TVA HQ in Knoxville on sales/support mission for new nuclear
unit they were considering; they offered tour to a couple plant sites,
one of which was Bull Run, the other Sequoyah, a competitors' nuclear
station so I turned that one down and went to Bull Run instead.

--

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 09:48:56 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/9/2019 9:38 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 08:47:19 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
...

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators.
*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators.

At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd
largest power supplier in the US tells me.

While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases)
used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator
cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal
conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and
commensurate reduction in size/expense.

Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used
as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go
boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get.

Sounds that way, doesn't it?

But is so.

He is inflammable, true, but as a gas has lousy heat transfer properties
in comparison and so is comparatively poor for the purpose. LIQUID He
is used for superconducting applications, but that's not this
application at all.

I think you meant "not-flammable". "Inflammable" doesn't mean what
you think it does. ;-)

No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at
least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than
H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics
modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive).

And, "no, I'm not making this up!" -- spent 30+ years, first in
commercial nuclear generation and then transitioned over to fossil...

https://www.power-eng.com/articles/print/volume-113/issue-6/features/hydrogen-cools-well-but-safety-is-crucial.html

On 3/9/2019 11:56 AM, wrote:
....

No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at
least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than
H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics
modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive).
....

Not in comparison to H, it doesn't, no...the heat transfer
characteristics outweigh He enough to use it extensively despite the
flammability for turbine-generator cooling.

H conductivity is ~20% higher, but the molar heat capacity is almost
double He and the density is roughly half so one gets much more heat
transport out that wins the thermal efficiency battle handily.

70% or so of all turbine-generators over 50-60 MWe wouldn't use H
cooling if it weren't a marked advantage.

I'm not aware of any using He altho there may well be a few.

--

On 3/9/2019 12:52 PM, dpb wrote:
....

70% or so of all turbine-generators over 50-60 MWe wouldn't use H
cooling if it weren't a marked advantage.
....

Which, of course, doesn't negate that it may be used for other
applications as your example.

Large central-station generating units are very large, very complex and
very expensive and the payback of a little extra efficiency is
sufficiently high they can afford the added complexity in handling H.

For other uses, the handling issues can easily be prohibitive.

--

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators.
*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators.
At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd
largest power supplier in the US tells me.


Our nuclear power plants use " heavy water " for that very reason -
so that gravity will assure that the short-circuit-current
will flow to ground .. With regular old tap water -
the electrons might go anywhere !
John T.

On 3/9/2019 3:16 PM, wrote:

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators.
Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators.
At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd
largest power supplier in the US tells me.


Our nuclear power plants use " heavy water " for that very reason -
so that gravity will assure that the short-circuit-current
will flow to ground .. With regular old tap water -
the electrons might go anywhere !
John T.

Chuckles...

--

On 3/8/2019 8:51 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 11:12:19 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 1:25:44 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 3/8/2019 11:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/8/19 11:03 AM, Leon wrote:
I saw this and was wondering how long it has been around and how does
it work.Â* What is it made out of to deliver electricity?

https://www.lowesforpros.com/pd/Sout...e-Roll/1193433


What am I missing?Â* Are they actually talking about the casing?Â* The
casing is not wire...

I believe the Non-Metallic (NM) means the sheathing is made of plastic,
not metal.
There are times when it's required to have metal-sheathed wire and times
when you can use Romex, non-metallic sheathed wire.

So that's the designation.Â* MC for metal clad, and NM for non-metallic.



Understood but it specifically says non metallic "wire". And I do not
ever recall Romex ever being called metallic or non metallic.


It's not uncommon, assuming that you accept that by referring to something
by using the initials NM, it is being referred to as non-metallic.

https://www.thespruce.com/what-does-...m-mean-1821530

"Romex® is the specific brand name for a non-metallic (NM) building wire
made by Southwire. In other words, Romex® is technically just one brand
of NM cable. However, the term Romex is often used generically (though
inaccurately) to describe any type of NM cable, no matter which manufacturer
made it."
"Romex" is not wire - it is CABLE. A "wire" is a single conductor


Yes, and further confuses the matter. LOL

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 15:21:19 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/9/2019 3:16 PM, wrote:

Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators.
*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators.
At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd
largest power supplier in the US tells me.


Our nuclear power plants use " heavy water " for that very reason -
so that gravity will assure that the short-circuit-current
will flow to ground .. With regular old tap water -
the electrons might go anywhere !
John T.

Chuckles...



I'm old enough to remember when there were HV transformers
that were cooled with get this - water !
Including my fav transformer cooling - on a EHV international
tie-line, no less - where the big old thang would get some extra
MVA with the cooling rads being sprayed with water - in addition
to the usual oil pumps and cooling fans ..
John T.

On 3/8/2019 8:26 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 11:03:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I saw this and was wondering how long it has been around and how does it
work. What is it made out of to deliver electricity?

https://www.lowesforpros.com/pd/Sout...e-Roll/1193433

What am I missing? Are they actually talking about the casing? The
casing is not wire...
It is non metallic sheathed cable by definiution - has copper
conductors. What do you expect af a big box store's description of
technical products???


LOL, I exported more. But in this "every one gets a trophy" society of
uneducated people....

On 3/8/2019 3:56 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Markem writes:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:25:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


And while I am on the soap box, When did the word button start being
pronounced but-in. Garden, now pronounced gar-din.

Classic example of school no longer teaching students how to read the
dictionary.

Classic example of geographical variation, y'all.



LOL!!! That is short for you all. The words I have trouble with, I
don't recall hearing them pronounced that way 15+ years ago.

On 3/8/2019 8:48 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:25:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 3/8/2019 11:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/8/19 11:03 AM, Leon wrote:
I saw this and was wondering how long it has been around and how does
it work.Â* What is it made out of to deliver electricity?

https://www.lowesforpros.com/pd/Sout...e-Roll/1193433


What am I missing?Â* Are they actually talking about the casing?Â* The
casing is not wire...

I believe the Non-Metallic (NM) means the sheathing is made of plastic,
not metal.
There are times when it's required to have metal-sheathed wire and times
when you can use Romex, non-metallic sheathed wire.

So that's the designation.Â* MC for metal clad, and NM for non-metallic.



Understood but it specifically says non metallic "wire". And I do not
ever recall Romex ever being called metallic or non metallic.

Probably another situation where those persons naming parts or
describing something have no idea what the meaning of words are.

Functionality, never needed to replace the word function. And for that
matter, "almost any word that has had "ality" added in the last 10~12 years.

Utilize, never needed to replace the word use.

And while I am on the soap box, When did the word button start being
pronounced but-in. Garden, now pronounced gar-din.

Classic example of school no longer teaching students how to read the
dictionary.

All future left voters.

I thought it was the inbread homeschooled backwoods southern
repugnicans who couldn't read or write past a 3rd grade level. Those
and the sons of rich new york mobsters that run for president as a way
to "improve their brand"

In other word - current "right" voters (or at least TRUMP voters) and
Trump offspring


Could be some of them in there too but I'd be willing to bet it is
mostly those caught on Youtube boo-hooing like 5 year olds when they
learned that Trump won.

So it is getting worse on how words are being pronounced. Even Savannah
Guthrie on the Today show was saying but-in the other day, I don't
recall her saying it that way in the past. That word is like a sore
thumb every time I hear it. That and functionality.


It all falls in line with taking down Confederate flaga, statues,
excreta. Anything that reminds any one of a past they would like to forget.

The problem with that is that if you do not study the past/history you
are bound to repeat it. Burning books will be next.

On 3/8/2019 9:50 PM, Colin Campbell wrote:
On Fri, 08 Mar 2019 21:48:27 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:


I thought it was the inbread homeschooled backwoods southern
repugnicans who couldn't read or write past a 3rd grade level. Those and
the sons of rich new york mobsters that run for president as a way to
"improve their brand"

In other word - current "right" voters (or at least TRUMP voters) and
Trump offspring

Looks like time to update the killfile: this kind of snide ad hominem
bull**** is a complete waste of time, and totally out of place in an
exchange of ideas and experience of woodworking.

Colin


You should probably hang around longer before kill filing any one. I
would say you might be a recent poster, I don't recall you being on this
group in the past few years. Many of us here have been here sine the
last millennium. And as we get older we kinda become less tolerant. and
go off on a tangent. ;~)

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 10:38:52 AM UTC-5,
wrote:

Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used
as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go
boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get.

I don't know about that. I remember the time I called him an A-hole.
He reacted rather violently. ;-)


Someone's written a lengthy article on his life:
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hydrogen

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:24:45 PM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 10:38:52 AM UTC-5,
wrote:

Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used
as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go
boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get.

I don't know about that. I remember the time I called him an A-hole.
He reacted rather violently. ;-)


Someone's written a lengthy article on his life:
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hydrogen

Very nice!

On Sat, 09 Mar 2019 16:22:49 -0600, Leon wrote:

On 3/8/2019 9:50 PM, Colin Campbell wrote:
On Fri, 08 Mar 2019 21:48:27 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:


I thought it was the inbread homeschooled backwoods southern
repugnicans who couldn't read or write past a 3rd grade level. Those
and the sons of rich new york mobsters that run for president as a way
to "improve their brand"

In other word - current "right" voters (or at least TRUMP voters)
and
Trump offspring

Looks like time to update the killfile: this kind of snide ad hominem
bull**** is a complete waste of time, and totally out of place in an
exchange of ideas and experience of woodworking.

Colin


You should probably hang around longer before kill filing any one. I
would say you might be a recent poster, I don't recall you being on this
group in the past few years. Many of us here have been here sine the
last millennium. And as we get older we kinda become less tolerant. and
go off on a tangent. ;~)

You're probably right, Leon; the comments caught me crossways after a
long day, and I hit send before think. AAMOF, I've been following the NG
for 3-4 years, just don't have a lot to say. I figure 2 eyes, 2 ears and
only 1 mouth has to mean something.

Thanks for the nudge, Leon!

Colin

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 12:52:19 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/9/2019 11:56 AM, wrote:
...

No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at
least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than
H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics
modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive).
...

Not in comparison to H, it doesn't, no...the heat transfer
characteristics outweigh He enough to use it extensively despite the
flammability for turbine-generator cooling.

H conductivity is ~20% higher, but the molar heat capacity is almost
double He and the density is roughly half so one gets much more heat
transport out that wins the thermal efficiency battle handily.

70% or so of all turbine-generators over 50-60 MWe wouldn't use H
cooling if it weren't a marked advantage.

I'm not aware of any using He altho there may well be a few.

He is a lot more difficult to come by, particularly in the quantities
that would be needed for large generators.

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 12:52:19 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/9/2019 11:56 AM, wrote:
...

No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at
least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than
H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics
modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive).
...

Not in comparison to H, it doesn't, no...the heat transfer
characteristics outweigh He enough to use it extensively despite the
flammability for turbine-generator cooling.

H conductivity is ~20% higher, but the molar heat capacity is almost
double He and the density is roughly half so one gets much more heat
transport out that wins the thermal efficiency battle handily.

70% or so of all turbine-generators over 50-60 MWe wouldn't use H
cooling if it weren't a marked advantage.

Looking up the difference, I see that H is significantly better than
He at high temperature but not so much at lower temperatures. In
fact, H gets _much_ better at high temperature. Its lower mass really
shows up.

I'm not aware of any using He altho there may well be a few.

On 3/9/2019 9:40 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 12:52:19 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/9/2019 11:56 AM, wrote:
...

No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at
least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than
H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics
modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive).
...

Not in comparison to H, it doesn't, no...the heat transfer
characteristics outweigh He enough to use it extensively despite the
flammability for turbine-generator cooling.

H conductivity is ~20% higher, but the molar heat capacity is almost
double He and the density is roughly half so one gets much more heat
transport out that wins the thermal efficiency battle handily.
....

Looking up the difference, I see that H is significantly better than
He at high temperature but not so much at lower temperatures. In
fact, H gets _much_ better at high temperature. Its lower mass really
shows up.

What I kept telling you...

I don't know what your definition of a "high" temperature is, but the
~2X factors occur by 200F or thereabouts.

Stator operating limits are just about there with typical alarm
setpoints at 110 C.

--