I was just going through a few of my hand planes and sharpening and
cleaning them up Including a couple really old ones that somehow got
rusted.

I tested a few and was amazed at how smooth the wood was after it was
planed. Especially on 3/4" edges. I don't remember sanding getting
them that smooth.

So it made me wonder, I have been watching some video's of old custom
hand planes that had blades cut for edge shaping, even where one would
have to use a couple different planes to get the style you wanted.

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 11:45:10 PM UTC-8, OFWW wrote:
I was just going through a few of my hand planes ...
I tested a few and was amazed at how smooth the wood was after it was
planed. Especially on 3/4" edges. I don't remember sanding getting
them that smooth.

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

Routers (especially with carbide bits) have a less acute cutting edge than
the iron (steel, actually) of a plane. Yes, the cut of a plane is smoother,
but it also depends more critically on the wood grain and toughness.

Some edge ornamentation uses high-angle planes which are less sensitive
to grain. The most extreme are called 'scratch planes' because the edges are
as blunt as a carbide router bit.

On 11/23/2017 1:45 AM, OFWW wrote:
I was just going through a few of my hand planes and sharpening and
cleaning them up Including a couple really old ones that somehow got
rusted.

I tested a few and was amazed at how smooth the wood was after it was
planed. Especially on 3/4" edges. I don't remember sanding getting
them that smooth.

So it made me wonder, I have been watching some video's of old custom
hand planes that had blades cut for edge shaping, even where one would
have to use a couple different planes to get the style you wanted.

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?



Assuming equal sharpness, yes.

replying to OFWW, Iggy wrote:
That's the trade-off. Planes are smoother, quieter, a lot cleaner and don't
require electricity. But, Routers are vastly more compact than a bunch of
planes and they're scalable, versatile and especially precise. A little
sanding is a good trade.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/woodwo...er-812480-.htm

whit3rd wrote in
:


Routers (especially with carbide bits) have a less acute cutting edge
than the iron (steel, actually) of a plane. Yes, the cut of a plane
is smoother, but it also depends more critically on the wood grain and
toughness.

Some edge ornamentation uses high-angle planes which are less
sensitive to grain. The most extreme are called 'scratch planes'
because the edges are as blunt as a carbide router bit.

As I understood it, older carbide had a rougher grain structure so it was
difficult to get a really sharp edge. They've figured out how to make
carbide with a much finer edge which means the carbide can actually be much
sharper.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

"OFWW" wrote in message ...

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth
surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically
cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain related
chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able
change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron and
body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be
perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide the
plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts would
match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to be?
If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably doesn't.

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 7:43:18 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"OFWW" wrote in message ...

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth
surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically
cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain related
chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able
change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron and
body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be
perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide the
plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts would
match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to be?
If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably doesn't.

It's not the seeing, it's the knowing. ;-)

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 02:10:24 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 11:45:10 PM UTC-8, OFWW wrote:
I was just going through a few of my hand planes ...
I tested a few and was amazed at how smooth the wood was after it was
planed. Especially on 3/4" edges. I don't remember sanding getting
them that smooth.

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

Routers (especially with carbide bits) have a less acute cutting edge than
the iron (steel, actually) of a plane. Yes, the cut of a plane is smoother,
but it also depends more critically on the wood grain and toughness.

Some edge ornamentation uses high-angle planes which are less sensitive
to grain. The most extreme are called 'scratch planes' because the edges are
as blunt as a carbide router bit.

Scratch planes, a new one on me, found this,
http://www.finewoodworking.com/2008/...-scratch-stock

Now I understand. Also very interesting. A good use for old saws.
It'll now be stuck in my mind, nice way of making a bead for cabinet
doors and stuff.

What you mentioned about grain patterns having a lot to do with what
happens when using a router and from what little I've read the Carbide
is less smooth /sharp then a high speed carbon steel bit. That the
steel bit just doesn't last as long before requiring service. But I
don't know that for a fact.

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 19:43:08 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"OFWW" wrote in message ...

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth
surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically
cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain related
chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able
change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron and
body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be
perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide the
plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts would
match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to be?
If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably doesn't.


That makes sense. There are always trade offs. I was watching one
older guy teaching on planes and he wryly mentioned that using a
molding plane he could have a door done, or whatever, in less time
that it takes to setup a router with bits, test, and run. It sure make
you think.

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:54:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 7:43:18 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"OFWW" wrote in message ...

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth
surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically
cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain related
chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able
change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron and
body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be
perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide the
plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts would
match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to be?
If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably doesn't.

It's not the seeing, it's the knowing. ;-)

If that's not the truth.

On 11/23/2017 8:18 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 19:43:08 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"OFWW" wrote in message ...

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth
surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically
cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain related
chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able
change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron and
body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be
perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide the
plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts would
match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to be?
If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably doesn't.


That makes sense. There are always trade offs. I was watching one
older guy teaching on planes and he wryly mentioned that using a
molding plane he could have a door done, or whatever, in less time
that it takes to setup a router with bits, test, and run. It sure make
you think.


Absolutely but you must be proficient with sharpening the planes and a
bit of practice.

On 23-Nov-17 8:18 PM, OFWW wrote:
....

That makes sense. There are always trade offs. I was watching one
older guy teaching on planes and he wryly mentioned that using a
molding plane he could have a door done, or whatever, in less time
that it takes to setup a router with bits, test, and run. It sure make
you think.

One-off, perhaps, depending on just what is being done. The setup
becomes the ticket when doing a full kitchen-full of doors or the like.

Not that moulding planes and so on aren't useful to have and have their
place; I've a full set of the Stanley 95 irons plus any number of
made-for-purpose irons as well and it gets a fair amount of practice
yet. But it won't be likely to be first choice for anything but the
short run or the case of going into "full reproduction" mode rather than
"utilitarian".

The biggest difference other than being able to make custom shapes other
than the available store-boughten patterns is that no matter what, there
will be at least the slightest amount of "router wave" when done as the
router doesn't cut in a straight line but an arc. It can be minimized
by slower pass (at risk of burning, try doing cherry, for example) and
larger the diameter the better, but it's still there...

That's why I tend to still use the full spindle shaper over the router;
the diameter is so much larger (plus, of course, the big surface table
is nice).

--

On Fri, 24 Nov 2017 10:42:03 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/23/2017 8:18 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 19:43:08 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"OFWW" wrote in message ...

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth
surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically
cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain related
chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able
change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron and
body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be
perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide the
plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts would
match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to be?
If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably doesn't.


That makes sense. There are always trade offs. I was watching one
older guy teaching on planes and he wryly mentioned that using a
molding plane he could have a door done, or whatever, in less time
that it takes to setup a router with bits, test, and run. It sure make
you think.


Absolutely but you must be proficient with sharpening the planes and a
bit of practice.

No doubt. I've been making probably every mistake in the book, ruined
a few water stones and stuff in the process. Plus other stones, and
such. I have learned far more what not to do, than to do. This
includes sharpening chisels, and scrapers.

I even bought a calibrated granite stone for sharpening with paper but
somehow have lost the stone.

Recently I bought a Wen water stone sharpener, and bought some
accessories for chisels, knifes, Kitchen knives, etc. I can do more
faster and with better results than ever before. It is basically a
clone of the good one but was 100 bucks instead of 700.

WOW flattening the backside of a chisel or planing knife is done in
mere minutes, for the first time, and just seconds on touch ups.

With it I can now actually get an even wire edge on the scraper like
everyone speaks about. It also makes it possible to get a nice edge on
the ones that came in the kit with curved scrapers, except for the
inside radius'.

The sharpening wheel default is 225 or 250 grit and with the filler
stone it runs it up to 1,000 grit plus the stropping wheel. The price
of a Japanese very high grit is about 300 dollars.

So now I sharpen with the Wen, and touch up with a water stone to 6000
grit when needed. but if I can find my granite stone I'll be using
that, plus wet dry paper. to go higher when needed.

On Fri, 24 Nov 2017 11:43:09 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 23-Nov-17 8:18 PM, OFWW wrote:
...

That makes sense. There are always trade offs. I was watching one
older guy teaching on planes and he wryly mentioned that using a
molding plane he could have a door done, or whatever, in less time
that it takes to setup a router with bits, test, and run. It sure make
you think.

One-off, perhaps, depending on just what is being done. The setup
becomes the ticket when doing a full kitchen-full of doors or the like.


Yes, I can see that.

Not that moulding planes and so on aren't useful to have and have their
place; I've a full set of the Stanley 95 irons plus any number of
made-for-purpose irons as well and it gets a fair amount of practice
yet. But it won't be likely to be first choice for anything but the
short run or the case of going into "full reproduction" mode rather than
"utilitarian".


I'd love to hang out and help in your shop.

One of my reasons for asking is that I am doing repairs to a couple
antique inherited pieces that I can pass on to my kids that are
interested in it, and also redoing a semi-antique secretaries desk
that was damaged and re purposing it to an entry way table, and that
would be a one off piece and so I'd like to put the finest edge on it
that I can. The existing piece except for where it was damaged was
almost glassy smooth.

The biggest difference other than being able to make custom shapes other
than the available store-boughten patterns is that no matter what, there
will be at least the slightest amount of "router wave" when done as the
router doesn't cut in a straight line but an arc. It can be minimized
by slower pass (at risk of burning, try doing cherry, for example) and
larger the diameter the better, but it's still there...


I hadn't noticed the cupping from a router before, or recognized it,
but I'd bet I would see it now! And as to your mention of Cherry
wood, I have been doing by best to minimize the burn with my limited
knowledge, since even the 10" table saw will burn it where I have less
problems on a 12" cross cutting chop saw. I'm making a wall mounted
tilting full length mirror for my wife.

That's why I tend to still use the full spindle shaper over the router;
the diameter is so much larger (plus, of course, the big surface table
is nice).

Which leads me to another question.

I've been considering making a new router tabletop, that swivels to
upright position of use as a shaper or 90 deg router, plus a jig for
doing mortises. It was feature on Woodsmith Magazine and seems like it
would be great for a guy like me working in his garage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4G9yx_62yI

On 24-Nov-17 7:33 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 24 Nov 2017 11:43:09 -0600, wrote:
....

Not that moulding planes and so on aren't useful to have and have their
place; I've a full set of the Stanley 95 irons plus any number of
made-for-purpose irons as well and it gets a fair amount of practice
yet. But it won't be likely to be first choice for anything but the
short run or the case of going into "full reproduction" mode rather than
"utilitarian".


I'd love to hang out and help in your shop.

Well, at the moment it's kinda in abeyance...but, you can still find old
Stanley's on eBay for reasonable prices if you're patient...altho it's
now been quite a long time since bought this one, I do notice every once
in a while there's a pretty decent opportunity...

One of my reasons for asking is that I am doing repairs to a couple
antique inherited pieces that I can pass on to my kids that are
interested in it, and also redoing a semi-antique secretaries desk
that was damaged and re purposing it to an entry way table, and that
would be a one off piece and so I'd like to put the finest edge on it
that I can. The existing piece except for where it was damaged was
almost glassy smooth.

That's the perfect place to have the flexibility and agree it'd be a
shame to not match an existing profile just because the router bit isn't
quite the same as the particular pattern used...

....

I've been considering making a new router tabletop, that swivels to
upright position of use as a shaper or 90 deg router, plus a jig for
doing mortises. It was feature on Woodsmith Magazine and seems like it
would be great for a guy like me working in his garage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4G9yx_62yI

Certainly there are uses for horizontal router....that appears a
reasonable table design. Switching horses but horizontal reminds me I
still covet the old chain mortiser in the geezer's shop I had access to
in Lynchburg lo! those many years ago...

--

On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:57:37 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 24-Nov-17 7:33 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 24 Nov 2017 11:43:09 -0600, wrote:
...

Not that moulding planes and so on aren't useful to have and have their
place; I've a full set of the Stanley 95 irons plus any number of
made-for-purpose irons as well and it gets a fair amount of practice
yet. But it won't be likely to be first choice for anything but the
short run or the case of going into "full reproduction" mode rather than
"utilitarian".


I'd love to hang out and help in your shop.

Well, at the moment it's kinda in abeyance...but, you can still find old
Stanley's on eBay for reasonable prices if you're patient...altho it's
now been quite a long time since bought this one, I do notice every once
in a while there's a pretty decent opportunity...

One of my reasons for asking is that I am doing repairs to a couple
antique inherited pieces that I can pass on to my kids that are
interested in it, and also redoing a semi-antique secretaries desk
that was damaged and re purposing it to an entry way table, and that
would be a one off piece and so I'd like to put the finest edge on it
that I can. The existing piece except for where it was damaged was
almost glassy smooth.

That's the perfect place to have the flexibility and agree it'd be a
shame to not match an existing profile just because the router bit isn't
quite the same as the particular pattern used...

...

I've been considering making a new router tabletop, that swivels to
upright position of use as a shaper or 90 deg router, plus a jig for
doing mortises. It was feature on Woodsmith Magazine and seems like it
would be great for a guy like me working in his garage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4G9yx_62yI

Certainly there are uses for horizontal router....that appears a
reasonable table design. Switching horses but horizontal reminds me I
still covet the old chain mortiser in the geezer's shop I had access to
in Lynchburg lo! those many years ago...

Do you mean like this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIGoigLhhwM

I see that Festool, Makita, and a few others have a portable type but
with a much wider chain, for beam's and heavy wood.

Yeah, looks awesome, fast. If they had a reverse cut chain and you
could reverse the motor you could eliminate tear out.

Thanks for the pointer, learned something new, that was old.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:57:37 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 24-Nov-17 7:33 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 24 Nov 2017 11:43:09 -0600, wrote:
...

Not that moulding planes and so on aren't useful to have and have their
place; I've a full set of the Stanley 95 irons plus any number of
made-for-purpose irons as well and it gets a fair amount of practice
yet. But it won't be likely to be first choice for anything but the
short run or the case of going into "full reproduction" mode rather than
"utilitarian".


I'd love to hang out and help in your shop.

Well, at the moment it's kinda in abeyance...but, you can still find old
Stanley's on eBay for reasonable prices if you're patient...altho it's
now been quite a long time since bought this one, I do notice every once
in a while there's a pretty decent opportunity...

One of my reasons for asking is that I am doing repairs to a couple
antique inherited pieces that I can pass on to my kids that are
interested in it, and also redoing a semi-antique secretaries desk
that was damaged and re purposing it to an entry way table, and that
would be a one off piece and so I'd like to put the finest edge on it
that I can. The existing piece except for where it was damaged was
almost glassy smooth.

That's the perfect place to have the flexibility and agree it'd be a
shame to not match an existing profile just because the router bit isn't
quite the same as the particular pattern used...


I've been considering making a new router tabletop, that swivels to
upright position of use as a shaper or 90 deg router, plus a jig for
doing mortises. It was feature on Woodsmith Magazine and seems like it
would be great for a guy like me working in his garage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4G9yx_62yI

Certainly there are uses for horizontal router....that appears a
reasonable table design. Switching horses but horizontal reminds me I
still covet the old chain mortiser in the geezer's shop I had access to
in Lynchburg lo! those many years ago...

Why would one want to mortise chain?

https://jet.com/product/detail/41df39aff02e42848b6c698e8205765c?jcmp=pla:ggl:a_nj _dur_gen_tools_home_improvement_a1:tools_home_impr ovement_power_hand_tools_drill_presses_a1:na:PLA_7 84744695_42602150553_pla-382582466122_c:na:na:na:2PLA15&pid=kenshoo_int&c=7 84744695&is_retargeting=true&clickid=829c35fa-f889-488f-849d-4c472715ff80&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsbjUhfXa1wIV2bbACh3 DfQh9EAQYASABEgLLJfD_BwE

Buy two, get $7.50 off. What a deal! ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZRtxrfQ_f0

I don't think I'd have a lot of use for something that size. It's
bigger than a Domino XL. ;-)

"OFWW" wrote in message ...

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:54:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 7:43:18 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin
wrote:
"OFWW" wrote in message
...

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth
surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically
cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain
related
chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able
change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron
and
body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be
perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide
the
plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts
would
match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to
be?
If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably
doesn't.

It's not the seeing, it's the knowing. ;-)

If that's not the truth.

You guys need to trade in your 21st century lenses for some 18th century
lenses... ;~)

Things in the 18th century were often made to patterns and items would look
similar to like items but if you put them side by side and started measuring
you'd find variance. This does not apply just to crude work, but rather to
fine work also. Turned spindles is a good example... assembled in a
staircase or the back of a chair and they look just fine even if there is
variance. Flintlocks are another example, No one would ever argue that a
fine flintlock wasn't precision even if it didn't have interchangeable
parts.

I had a discussion at my woodworking club's meeting that came about when a
member, who had a board about 1 5/8" thick, wanted to resaw it on a band
saw. He was adamant that he get 2 finished boards 3/4" thick to make the
panels for the sides of a frame and panel chest. We was adamant that they be
3/4" thick... He got really irritated when I suggested that he saw it as
best he could and use whatever thickness he ended up with. Who cares what
it measures... it's one board going in one chest, he isn't manufacturing 100
chests.... and used as a panel who could ever tell it wasn't 3/4" thick?
His 21st century lenses made him myopic and he just didn't get it...

Get yourself some 18th century glasses... stress disappears and you'll find
you can make very nice things even if they fail the micrometer test. ;~)

wrote in message ...

Why would one want to mortise chain?

https://jet.com/product/detail/41df39aff02e42848b6c698e8205765c?jcmp=pla:ggl:a_n j_dur_gen_tools_home_improvement_a1:tools_home_imp rovement_power_hand_tools_drill_presses_a1:na:PLA_ 784744695_42602150553_pla-382582466122_c:na:na:na:2PLA15&pid=kenshoo_int&c=7 84744695&is_retargeting=true&clickid=829c35fa-f889-488f-849d-4c472715ff80&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsbjUhfXa1wIV2bbACh 3DfQh9EAQYASABEgLLJfD_BwE


I could have used one of those for a recent project... I found out last week
that the local boat school has one. Using my contacts there I hope to gain
access to it for the next phase of the project!

On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 19:02:05 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"OFWW" wrote in message ...

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:54:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 7:43:18 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin
wrote:
"OFWW" wrote in message
...

My question is, when using my router to do the same thing I don't ever
remember the shapes being that smooth, so do the hand planes cut the
shapes as smooth as a flat plane does?

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth
surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically
cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain
related
chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able
change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron
and
body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be
perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide
the
plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts
would
match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to
be?
If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably
doesn't.

It's not the seeing, it's the knowing. ;-)

If that's not the truth.

You guys need to trade in your 21st century lenses for some 18th century
lenses... ;~)


I hear you, but it is still in the knowing. Not so much in things like
production runs but in the one offs. In those days there were not a
lot of home tooling that was anywhere near exact as we have now, and
given the chance they would have loved to brought up their standards,
rather than just making it fit.

The best of the craftsman in those days were paid handsomely for their
beauty and symmetry of exactness. to the best of their ability.

When starting to work with wood products just given the nature of
wood, the types, the moisture, the way the grain runs, the way the
wood is cut all are variables that one has to deal with. It was a
shock to me after working with metals in one form or another all my
life. So understanding what you are conveying is not difficult for me,
yet....I still want to keep the standards as high as I can.

What you speak of, I count on so when I am making something that I
like and think other people would too then what is better than making
two, keeping the best one and selling the other to someone who just
want something nice or nice and functional. It is embarrassing hearing
comments about it when you can see and know every flaw, even though it
is not weakened in any way.

OTH, sometimes I wonder why I spent so much time on something when the
little things did not matter in the end. Makes me feel stupid as a
matter of fact.

So when I see something fine or of finesse, I truly appreciate it in
wood working.

Things in the 18th century were often made to patterns and items would look
similar to like items but if you put them side by side and started measuring
you'd find variance. This does not apply just to crude work, but rather to
fine work also. Turned spindles is a good example... assembled in a
staircase or the back of a chair and they look just fine even if there is
variance. Flintlocks are another example, No one would ever argue that a
fine flintlock wasn't precision even if it didn't have interchangeable
parts.

I had a discussion at my woodworking club's meeting that came about when a
member, who had a board about 1 5/8" thick, wanted to resaw it on a band
saw. He was adamant that he get 2 finished boards 3/4" thick to make the
panels for the sides of a frame and panel chest. We was adamant that they be
3/4" thick... He got really irritated when I suggested that he saw it as
best he could and use whatever thickness he ended up with. Who cares what
it measures... it's one board going in one chest, he isn't manufacturing 100
chests.... and used as a panel who could ever tell it wasn't 3/4" thick?
His 21st century lenses made him myopic and he just didn't get it...

Get yourself some 18th century glasses... stress disappears and you'll find
you can make very nice things even if they fail the micrometer test. ;~)

"OFWW" wrote in message ...

On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 19:02:05 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"OFWW" wrote in message
. ..

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:54:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


It's not the seeing, it's the knowing. ;-)

If that's not the truth.

You guys need to trade in your 21st century lenses for some 18th century
lenses... ;~)


I hear you, but it is still in the knowing. Not so much in things like
production runs but in the one offs. In those days there were not a
lot of home tooling that was anywhere near exact as we have now, and
given the chance they would have loved to brought up their standards,
rather than just making it fit.

The best of the craftsman in those days were paid handsomely for their
beauty and symmetry of exactness. to the best of their ability.

My reference point is journeymen 18th century tradesman... my former
co-workers. ;~) None of their work was crude. I wasnt even considering the
rough work that may have been done by non-professionals at home...

I recall a visit from master engraver Lynton McKenzie. This guy was world
renowned (now deceased) and I was dumb struck when he praised Wallace
Gusler's engraving skill. This because Wallace used what Lynton described as
a sharpened nail to do his work whereas he himself used the finest hand
engraving tools and fixtures available. The notion that tools were a
limitation to quality and fineness quickly faded away as I watched
journeymen work and saw the fineness of their work. I learned a lot from
them...

One of Wallace's guns... hand forged and filed barrel, lock, etc.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/a8...9ed227bbfc.jpg

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 20:47:53 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"OFWW" wrote in message ...

On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 19:02:05 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"OFWW" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:54:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


It's not the seeing, it's the knowing. ;-)

If that's not the truth.

You guys need to trade in your 21st century lenses for some 18th century
lenses... ;~)


I hear you, but it is still in the knowing. Not so much in things like
production runs but in the one offs. In those days there were not a
lot of home tooling that was anywhere near exact as we have now, and
given the chance they would have loved to brought up their standards,
rather than just making it fit.

The best of the craftsman in those days were paid handsomely for their
beauty and symmetry of exactness. to the best of their ability.

My reference point is journeymen 18th century tradesman... my former
co-workers. ;~) None of their work was crude. I wasn’t even considering the
rough work that may have been done by non-professionals at home...

I recall a visit from master engraver Lynton McKenzie. This guy was world
renowned (now deceased) and I was dumb struck when he praised Wallace
Gusler's engraving skill. This because Wallace used what Lynton described as
a sharpened nail to do his work whereas he himself used the finest hand
engraving tools and fixtures available. The notion that tools were a
limitation to quality and fineness quickly faded away as I watched
journeymen work and saw the fineness of their work. I learned a lot from
them...

One of Wallace's guns... hand forged and filed barrel, lock, etc.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/a8...9ed227bbfc.jpg


Stunningly beautiful. In Paris I went through the armory wherein were
many weapons of every type available. Including the suits of armor. It
was all amazing, from the prototype canons (working) to the full sized
and no lathes to turn them. The engravings, etc.

No, I don't shun any of them for any reason, wood workers, etc. The
speed with which they could do what they could shows me their
experienced skill and craftsmanship.