On Tuesday, November 1, 2016 at 3:52:35 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:

we will still have the same badly politically managed economy



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fed-r...172400359.html

From an article on the release of the Federal Reserve meeting minutes.

"The Feds cautious, yet generally positive, economic statement follows a slew of improving data,Â*including strong retail sales, solid ISM manufacturing gains and better-than-expected labor force participation. The unemployment rate has hovered around 5% for the past year€”a level many economists consider to be near full employment. Meanwhile output growth has gained momentum. Real GDP is estimated to have increased 2.9% in the third quarter.

Inflation, which has run below the Feds 2% target for years,"

Despite what people imagine and pretend to see, the US economy is doing pretty well. Not great, but good.

wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than $2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than $2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Here are the annual inflation rates since 2005.
2005 3.4
2006 3.2
2007 2.8
2008 3.8
2009 -0.4
2010 1.6
2011 3.2
2012 2.1
2013 1.5
2014 1.6
2015 0.1

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing, gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only. AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items? None of my friends do. My parents could buy the tickets if they ever, ever, ever went to the movies. They don't so its inapplicable to them.

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 16:37:06 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not.

They are not. The problem is that the "basket" keeps changing,
depending on what the government wants to show. Several years ago,
steak was replaced by hamburger (both are meat, after all) to keep the
cost of food in the basket the same. Gasoline was included, until it
was approaching $5. Then not.

Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 20:07:40 -0400, krw wrote:

On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 16:37:06 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not.

They are not. The problem is that the "basket" keeps changing,
depending on what the government wants to show. Several years ago,
steak was replaced by hamburger (both are meat, after all) to keep the
cost of food in the basket the same. Gasoline was included, until it
was approaching $5. Then not.

I meant to add that it's not one party that does it. Both sides have
a strong interest in keeping the official CPI (and interest rates)
down.

Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

In article , says...

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html


Personally I'm making about twice what I was making in 1985. In 1985 I
felt like I was struggling to make ends meet. Now I don't feel that
way. So no, I don't buy the argument that living expenses have doubled
over the past 20 years.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 11/5/2016 5:59 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html


Personally I'm making about twice what I was making in 1985. In 1985 I
felt like I was struggling to make ends meet. Now I don't feel that
way. So no, I don't buy the argument that living expenses have doubled
over the past 20 years.


Anecdotal evidence is sketchy. I just looked at what I made in 1985 and
I've more than doubled it, but in 1986 I had a $6000 increase. In 1985
I was just getting by, but in the interim, two teenagers moved out of
the house, the house has been paid for etc. I also have more money in
my savings account than ever in my life but got less than 50 cents in
interest last month. In 1985 I had enough to cover upcoming taxes but
got a couple of bucks for it.

On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 08:06:07 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/5/2016 5:59 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html


Personally I'm making about twice what I was making in 1985. In 1985 I
felt like I was struggling to make ends meet. Now I don't feel that
way. So no, I don't buy the argument that living expenses have doubled
over the past 20 years.


Anecdotal evidence is sketchy. I just looked at what I made in 1985 and
I've more than doubled it, but in 1986 I had a $6000 increase. In 1985
I was just getting by, but in the interim, two teenagers moved out of
the house, the house has been paid for etc. I also have more money in
my savings account than ever in my life but got less than 50 cents in
interest last month. In 1985 I had enough to cover upcoming taxes but
got a couple of bucks for it.

It's also cherry picking. I didn't get a raise (though I did change
jobs with some change in income, up and down) for fifteen years and
they've been minimal since. If picked that period, it would have made
everything look worse.

That said, I'm in much better financial situation because, as you
allude to, as we age the non-discretionary part of our income tends to
go down. A house purchase fixes a big chunk of the monthly expenses
to that time. It's the greatest inflation hedge there is. As we've
seen, it's not 100% safe, if you're forced to sell at the bottom (not
much different than any other investment). Add to that the increase
in the value of my homes (living in the 4th), over that time (~6x),
and I'm in good shape, and that will be paid off in a matter of
months. However, none of this helps the kid just entering the market.

No, anecdotal evidence isn't good and it's easy to ignore the details.

On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 05:59:00 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , says...

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html


Personally I'm making about twice what I was making in 1985. In 1985 I
felt like I was struggling to make ends meet. Now I don't feel that
way. So no, I don't buy the argument that living expenses have doubled
over the past 20 years.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Likewize. My earnings have been pretty static over the last 20
years. My expenses have gone down since the kids have left home,
I'm not twice as bad off as I was then - for sure. Food prices have
gone crazy - I'm sure I could never afford to buy my house at today's
prices, but tools have come down in price, as has technology. New car
prices have hardly changed - etc etc etc.

On Sat, 05 Nov 2016 16:35:26 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 05:59:00 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , says...

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html


Personally I'm making about twice what I was making in 1985. In 1985 I
felt like I was struggling to make ends meet. Now I don't feel that
way. So no, I don't buy the argument that living expenses have doubled
over the past 20 years.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Likewize. My earnings have been pretty static over the last 20
years. My expenses have gone down since the kids have left home,
I'm not twice as bad off as I was then - for sure. Food prices have
gone crazy - I'm sure I could never afford to buy my house at today's
prices, but tools have come down in price, as has technology. New car
prices have hardly changed - etc etc etc.

Cars have gone up significantly in 20 years but they're also
dramatically better cars.

On Sat, 05 Nov 2016 20:10:17 -0400, krw wrote:

On Sat, 05 Nov 2016 16:35:26 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 05:59:00 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , says...

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html


Personally I'm making about twice what I was making in 1985. In 1985 I
felt like I was struggling to make ends meet. Now I don't feel that
way. So no, I don't buy the argument that living expenses have doubled
over the past 20 years.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Likewize. My earnings have been pretty static over the last 20
years. My expenses have gone down since the kids have left home,
I'm not twice as bad off as I was then - for sure. Food prices have
gone crazy - I'm sure I could never afford to buy my house at today's
prices, but tools have come down in price, as has technology. New car
prices have hardly changed - etc etc etc.

Cars have gone up significantly in 20 years but they're also
dramatically better cars.
When I left Toyota in 1989 a new corolla wagon was Can$ 16,900.A
sedan was about $200 less. Equivalent in position todat would be a Kia
Forte 5? at $19,500 and that includes alloy rims, a 2 liter engine
instead of a 1.8 - and it is direct fuel injected with double the
horsepower, and bluetooth and all that other new tech that didn't
exist back then. - or a Mazda 5 - which is a bigger vehicle yet at
$21,000 - or a Hyundai Elantra GT at $18,000.

Again , all more powerfull, better mileage, larger vehicles with a
whole crapload of techno-toys added - for $2000 extra. A good set of
alloy rims and performance tires back then was more than $2000.

So, I wouldn't say the price has gone up "significantly"

And used car prices have not gone up either - and they are much better
5 year old cars now than back then.

On Sat, 05 Nov 2016 22:53:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Nov 2016 20:10:17 -0400, krw wrote:

On Sat, 05 Nov 2016 16:35:26 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 05:59:00 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , says...

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message
...

Inflation, which has run below the Fed's 2% target for years,

How many years? At 2% it would take about 36 years for prices to double.

My pocket book tells me that prices are about 2.5 times - or more - what
they were 20 years ago, nowhere near what the government claims. For
example, in 1996 I could buy a gallon of paint thinner for less than
$2.00;
now, it is $9.98. I could buy a senior ticket to a movie for $3.00; now
it
costs me $7.50.

However, inflation is great for debtors, the federal government being at
the
top of the heap. BTW, federal debt in 1996 was a bit less than 1/4 of
what
it is currently (5.2 billion vs 19+ billion).

IOW, the government's CPI doesn't reflect the real world.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1609.pdf

Go to page 87 of this PDF and you can see the annual percentage inflation
for the past 45 years. Couple pages above and you can see the annual
inflation for the prior 56 years before that.

Thank you buI know where to find such.

The CPI is comprised of normal everyday items people purchase. It shows the
change in prices for a basket of these goods. Not sure if housing,
gasoline, etc. are included or not. Some of the inflation rates include or
exclude these types of items. It is what the average person buys. The CPI
would not capture the cost of living for an over the road truck driver who
sleeps in his cab and eats at diners and never pays utilities or does
anything else except drive. And the CPI would not work for an 80 year old
wood worker who lives off the grid and eats day old bread and peanut butter
only and uses tung oil and hand planes and chisels and hand saws only.
AVERAGE American is the key here. CPI is applicable to most people. Paint
thinner? Senior movie tickets? Does the average American buy these items?

Probably not but the average American doesn't have college tuition & fees
(one of the items in the CPI) either; nor cigarettes; nor propane, kerosene
and firewood. Here's the whole list...
http://www.businessinsider.com/break...-basket-2014-1

Here's another link...income over a span of time. Pay attention to the
median. In 1995 it was $16,650. Last year - 20 years later - it was
$29.930. If you plug $16,650 into an "inflation calculator" for 1995 and
ask for the 2015 equivalent it will spit out $25,894. Do you really believe
that real median income has increased by more than $4,000? I don't.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html


Personally I'm making about twice what I was making in 1985. In 1985 I
felt like I was struggling to make ends meet. Now I don't feel that
way. So no, I don't buy the argument that living expenses have doubled
over the past 20 years.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Likewize. My earnings have been pretty static over the last 20
years. My expenses have gone down since the kids have left home,
I'm not twice as bad off as I was then - for sure. Food prices have
gone crazy - I'm sure I could never afford to buy my house at today's
prices, but tools have come down in price, as has technology. New car
prices have hardly changed - etc etc etc.

Cars have gone up significantly in 20 years but they're also
dramatically better cars.
When I left Toyota in 1989 a new corolla wagon was Can$ 16,900.A
sedan was about $200 less. Equivalent in position todat would be a Kia
Forte 5? at $19,500 and that includes alloy rims, a 2 liter engine
instead of a 1.8 - and it is direct fuel injected with double the
horsepower, and bluetooth and all that other new tech that didn't
exist back then. - or a Mazda 5 - which is a bigger vehicle yet at
$21,000 - or a Hyundai Elantra GT at $18,000.

Come on! You're comparing a Toyota and a Kia/Hundai? What does the
Toyota cost?

Again , all more powerfull, better mileage, larger vehicles with a
whole crapload of techno-toys added - for $2000 extra. A good set of
alloy rims and performance tires back then was more than $2000.

So, I wouldn't say the price has gone up "significantly"

And used car prices have not gone up either - and they are much better
5 year old cars now than back then.

They're much better because interest rates entice people go buy new
cars, depressing the price of used cars. Five years ago, the
situation was a little different (loans were hard to come by, driving
up used car prices).

On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 17:33:40 -0500, krw wrote:

snip

Cars have gone up significantly in 20 years but they're also
dramatically better cars.
When I left Toyota in 1989 a new corolla wagon was Can$ 16,900.A
sedan was about $200 less. Equivalent in position todat would be a Kia
Forte 5? at $19,500 and that includes alloy rims, a 2 liter engine
instead of a 1.8 - and it is direct fuel injected with double the
horsepower, and bluetooth and all that other new tech that didn't
exist back then. - or a Mazda 5 - which is a bigger vehicle yet at
$21,000 - or a Hyundai Elantra GT at $18,000.

Come on! You're comparing a Toyota and a Kia/Hundai? What does the
Toyota cost?


The Hyundai / Kia are the same "position" as the Toyota was in 1989.-
and higher quality.
Again , all more powerfull, better mileage, larger vehicles with a
whole crapload of techno-toys added - for $2000 extra. A good set of
alloy rims and performance tires back then was more than $2000.

So, I wouldn't say the price has gone up "significantly"

And used car prices have not gone up either - and they are much better
5 year old cars now than back then.

They're much better because interest rates entice people go buy new
cars, depressing the price of used cars. Five years ago, the
situation was a little different (loans were hard to come by, driving
up used car prices).
I bought both of my current used cars 5 years ago - and got the best
deals I've gotten in 20 years. (here in Canada - not USA)
And one of them was a dealer car - only the second used car I've
bought from a dealer in over 30 years.Just got a car for my brother's
father-in-law a few weeks ago. A few more miles than the one I bought
- same car 4 years newer - so virtually "the same car" - $2000 less
than what I paid for mine. - bought this one from an independent used
car dealer, bought mine from a Ford dealer. (Ford cars)

On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 19:21:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 17:33:40 -0500, krw wrote:

snip

Cars have gone up significantly in 20 years but they're also
dramatically better cars.
When I left Toyota in 1989 a new corolla wagon was Can$ 16,900.A
sedan was about $200 less. Equivalent in position todat would be a Kia
Forte 5? at $19,500 and that includes alloy rims, a 2 liter engine
instead of a 1.8 - and it is direct fuel injected with double the
horsepower, and bluetooth and all that other new tech that didn't
exist back then. - or a Mazda 5 - which is a bigger vehicle yet at
$21,000 - or a Hyundai Elantra GT at $18,000.

Come on! You're comparing a Toyota and a Kia/Hundai? What does the
Toyota cost?


The Hyundai / Kia are the same "position" as the Toyota was in 1989.-
and higher quality.

Nonsense. If you'd said 1979, maybe. Huyndai/Kia (same company) may
be better cars than the Toy of '79, but they're no Toyota. The
minivan is particularly atrocious. Your logic is the same one the
government uses to tell us that hamburger is the same thing as steak.

Again , all more powerfull, better mileage, larger vehicles with a
whole crapload of techno-toys added - for $2000 extra. A good set of
alloy rims and performance tires back then was more than $2000.

So, I wouldn't say the price has gone up "significantly"

And used car prices have not gone up either - and they are much better
5 year old cars now than back then.

They're much better because interest rates entice people go buy new
cars, depressing the price of used cars. Five years ago, the
situation was a little different (loans were hard to come by, driving
up used car prices).
I bought both of my current used cars 5 years ago - and got the best
deals I've gotten in 20 years. (here in Canada - not USA)
And one of them was a dealer car - only the second used car I've
bought from a dealer in over 30 years.Just got a car for my brother's
father-in-law a few weeks ago. A few more miles than the one I bought
- same car 4 years newer - so virtually "the same car" - $2000 less
than what I paid for mine. - bought this one from an independent used
car dealer, bought mine from a Ford dealer. (Ford cars)

Five years ago was at the end of the "cash for clunkers" era but even
then, loans were hard to come by, few had money for new cars, and used
cars went for premium $$. OTOH, there were spectacular deals on new
cars.

No question that used cars are tanking now. With interest rates and
"free" money all around, new cars are flying off the showroom floors.
All of the makers are posting records.

On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 21:20:20 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 19:21:13 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 17:33:40 -0500, krw wrote:

snip

Cars have gone up significantly in 20 years but they're also
dramatically better cars.
When I left Toyota in 1989 a new corolla wagon was Can$ 16,900.A
sedan was about $200 less. Equivalent in position todat would be a Kia
Forte 5? at $19,500 and that includes alloy rims, a 2 liter engine
instead of a 1.8 - and it is direct fuel injected with double the
horsepower, and bluetooth and all that other new tech that didn't
exist back then. - or a Mazda 5 - which is a bigger vehicle yet at
$21,000 - or a Hyundai Elantra GT at $18,000.

Come on! You're comparing a Toyota and a Kia/Hundai? What does the
Toyota cost?


The Hyundai / Kia are the same "position" as the Toyota was in 1989.-
and higher quality.

Nonsense. If you'd said 1979, maybe. Huyndai/Kia (same company) may
be better cars than the Toy of '79, but they're no Toyota. The
minivan is particularly atrocious. Your logic is the same one the
government uses to tell us that hamburger is the same thing as steak.

I worked for Toyota throughout the '80s - I know what they were then.
They were the best of the Japanese - and the Japanese were among the
best in the world for basic transportation. Today South Korea has
taken that market - Toyota has moved up-market - and even then, a
Corolla (they don't make a wagon type vehicle for North American
market any more) sedan is available for $22,000 +/-. That's $6000 more
than 26 years ago and is no longer "basic transportation"..

Hyundai today is at least as good a car as a mid eighties Toyota - I
would say markedly better. They are really knocking hard on Toyota's
door, even today. I would buy a Hyundai over a Nissan or Mazda today.
Forget Mitsubishi completely.

It would be a pretty close race between Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai for
me if I was buying a new import.

Again , all more powerfull, better mileage, larger vehicles with a
whole crapload of techno-toys added - for $2000 extra. A good set of
alloy rims and performance tires back then was more than $2000.

So, I wouldn't say the price has gone up "significantly"

And used car prices have not gone up either - and they are much better
5 year old cars now than back then.

They're much better because interest rates entice people go buy new
cars, depressing the price of used cars. Five years ago, the
situation was a little different (loans were hard to come by, driving
up used car prices).
I bought both of my current used cars 5 years ago - and got the best
deals I've gotten in 20 years. (here in Canada - not USA)
And one of them was a dealer car - only the second used car I've
bought from a dealer in over 30 years.Just got a car for my brother's
father-in-law a few weeks ago. A few more miles than the one I bought
- same car 4 years newer - so virtually "the same car" - $2000 less
than what I paid for mine. - bought this one from an independent used
car dealer, bought mine from a Ford dealer. (Ford cars)

Five years ago was at the end of the "cash for clunkers" era but even
then, loans were hard to come by, few had money for new cars, and used
cars went for premium $$. OTOH, there were spectacular deals on new
cars.
Cash for Clunkers had little effect on cars in the 5-6 year old
range. It got the old cheap cars off the road.

The price of used cars in Canada is artificially high because the good
ones are being shipped across the border into the USA by the
truckload, due in part to the low Canadian dollar. Even with that
being true, used cars are a BARGAIN compared to years ago.

Some brands still command a premium - which is why I drive used Fords
instead of used Toyotas or Hondas.

No question that used cars are tanking now. With interest rates and
"free" money all around, new cars are flying off the showroom floors.
All of the makers are posting records.
And the price of new cars - particularly GM, is at an all-time low
when you look at average wage-hours worked to buy them.

wrote:
And the price of new cars - particularly GM, is at an all-time low
when you look at average wage-hours worked to buy them.

Thinking of the number of wage-hours worked to buy them makes me drive
less (truly).
Sitting at a red light last month, and got rear-ended by new little
white Buick driven by a 19 or 20 years old girl/woman (who must have
obviously been-- fill in the blank ). Turns out her Progressive
insurance who promised to take care of everything, wouldn't take care of
everything...so off to small claims court we go... The disputed amount
is about the same as my deductable, so I'm not bothering my insurer with
it. So, in case you are curious like I was, I learned I wouldn't go
with Flo, unless you're after something besides her policy. : ) Sorry
I drifted off topic.

On 11/6/2016 5:33 PM, krw wrote:

When I left Toyota in 1989 a new corolla wagon was Can$ 16,900.A
sedan was about $200 less. Equivalent in position todat would be a Kia
Forte 5? at $19,500 and that includes alloy rims, a 2 liter engine
instead of a 1.8 - and it is direct fuel injected with double the
horsepower, and bluetooth and all that other new tech that didn't
exist back then. - or a Mazda 5 - which is a bigger vehicle yet at
$21,000 - or a Hyundai Elantra GT at $18,000.

Come on! You're comparing a Toyota and a Kia/Hundai? What does the
Toyota cost?

The sticker on my Hyundai was $54,500. I guess it depends on the model
when you compare. Toyota Corolla is $18,500 but you don't get a heated
steering wheel. Generalities don't work well.

On 2016-11-07, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

steering wheel. Generalities don't work well.

Much like all the cheap electrics being piled on cars, these days.
Electrics that will eventually fail ...or get hacked.

I use gloves.

nb

In article ,
says...

On 2016-11-07, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

steering wheel. Generalities don't work well.

Much like all the cheap electrics being piled on cars, these days.
Electrics that will eventually fail ...or get hacked.

I use gloves.

nb

The "electrics" on my Jeep started failing when
it was around 12 years old. I don't think that
this is a reasonable fear for people who trade
every three years.

On Mon, 7 Nov 2016 17:01:44 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/6/2016 5:33 PM, krw wrote:

When I left Toyota in 1989 a new corolla wagon was Can$ 16,900.A
sedan was about $200 less. Equivalent in position todat would be a Kia
Forte 5? at $19,500 and that includes alloy rims, a 2 liter engine
instead of a 1.8 - and it is direct fuel injected with double the
horsepower, and bluetooth and all that other new tech that didn't
exist back then. - or a Mazda 5 - which is a bigger vehicle yet at
$21,000 - or a Hyundai Elantra GT at $18,000.

Come on! You're comparing a Toyota and a Kia/Hundai? What does the
Toyota cost?

The sticker on my Hyundai was $54,500. I guess it depends on the model
when you compare. Toyota Corolla is $18,500 but you don't get a heated
steering wheel. Generalities don't work well.


I specified Corolla vs Elantra. The Accent is significantly less - and
actually closer to the '80's Corolla although positioned closer to the
Tercel. And yes, you CAN spend $60,000 on a Hyundai!!!! (but not an
Elantra unless you gold plate it - or possibly prepair it for
Professional Rallying -))

On 7 Nov 2016 22:08:24 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-11-07, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

steering wheel. Generalities don't work well.

Much like all the cheap electrics being piled on cars, these days.
Electrics that will eventually fail ...or get hacked.

I use gloves.

nb
Can't hack electrics. Electronics CAN be a different story (only if
they have some sort of communications to the outside world / web or
Bluetooth))