So this job went pretty quick. These garage cabinets are 182" wide and the
tall cabinet is 92" tall. Short cabs are 30" tall. These are
reconstructed in the usual manner that I do, front and back face frames all
floating tenon joints for the face frames and fitted to the panels with
grooves. I leveled a 10' piece of 1x3 soft maple to use as a ledger to set
the short cabinets on while I anchored all cabinets to the wall with 1/4" x
3.5" SPAX lad screws. No surprises and fortunately the wall was plumb,
although not flat.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/shares/9W2kZZ

On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 5:58:46 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
So this job went pretty quick. These garage cabinets are 182" wide and the
tall cabinet is 92" tall. Short cabs are 30" tall. These are
reconstructed in the usual manner that I do, front and back face frames all
floating tenon joints for the face frames and fitted to the panels with
grooves. I leveled a 10' piece of 1x3 soft maple to use as a ledger to set
the short cabinets on while I anchored all cabinets to the wall with 1/4" x
3.5" SPAX lad screws. No surprises and fortunately the wall was plumb,
although not flat.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/shares/9W2kZZ

Did you measure the short cabinets wrong? That's quite a gap between them and the floor.

;-)

Nice job!

On 4/8/2016 6:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 5:58:46 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
So this job went pretty quick. These garage cabinets are 182" wide and the
tall cabinet is 92" tall. Short cabs are 30" tall. These are
reconstructed in the usual manner that I do, front and back face frames all
floating tenon joints for the face frames and fitted to the panels with
grooves. I leveled a 10' piece of 1x3 soft maple to use as a ledger to set
the short cabinets on while I anchored all cabinets to the wall with 1/4" x
3.5" SPAX lad screws. No surprises and fortunately the wall was plumb,
although not flat.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/shares/9W2kZZ

Did you measure the short cabinets wrong? That's quite a gap between them and the floor.

;-)

Nice job!



LOL... No the cabinets are high so that the customer could park his
truck in the garage and make full use of the length of the garage for
that purpose. What is funny is that he traded his 2 year old F150 for a
new F250. after I started the project 3 weeks ago.
The new truck is too long to fit inside the garage, cabinets or no cabinets.

On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 8:18:10 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/8/2016 6:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 5:58:46 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
So this job went pretty quick. These garage cabinets are 182" wide and the
tall cabinet is 92" tall. Short cabs are 30" tall. These are
reconstructed in the usual manner that I do, front and back face frames all
floating tenon joints for the face frames and fitted to the panels with
grooves. I leveled a 10' piece of 1x3 soft maple to use as a ledger to set
the short cabinets on while I anchored all cabinets to the wall with 1/4" x
3.5" SPAX lad screws. No surprises and fortunately the wall was plumb,
although not flat.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/shares/9W2kZZ

Did you measure the short cabinets wrong? That's quite a gap between them and the floor.

;-)

Nice job!



LOL... No the cabinets are high so that the customer could park his
truck in the garage and make full use of the length of the garage for
that purpose. What is funny is that he traded his 2 year old F150 for a
new F250. after I started the project 3 weeks ago.
The new truck is too long to fit inside the garage, cabinets or no cabinets.

That is funny!

Well, now you can build him a workbench to go under the uppers.

BTW I figured the "gap" was either for a vehicle or a workbench. It turns
I may have been right with both assumptions. ;-)

On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:18:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
What is funny is that he traded his 2 year old F150 for a
new F250. after I started the project 3 weeks ago.
The new truck is too long to fit inside the garage, cabinets or no cabinets.

Leon's next job will be a (F100) garage extension.

Sonny

On 4/9/2016 6:46 AM, Sonny wrote:
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:18:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
What is funny is that he traded his 2 year old F150 for a
new F250. after I started the project 3 weeks ago.
The new truck is too long to fit inside the garage, cabinets or no cabinets.

Leon's next job will be a (F100) garage extension.

Sonny



I'll to refer that one to Swingman. LOL

On 4/9/2016 9:06 AM, Leon wrote:

I'll to refer that one to Swingman. LOL

No problem ... can get a beam/header in the space without even taking
your upper cabinets out, but the "bump out" in the living room will look
kinda funny.

Wonder if that guy will ever fully appreciate how much of a favor you
did him by incorporating the center supports for the adjustable shelves?

You ruined him for good, Bubba ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:58:43 -0500, Leon wrote:


So this job went pretty quick. These garage cabinets are 182" wide and the
tall cabinet is 92" tall. Short cabs are 30" tall. These are
reconstructed in the usual manner that I do, front and back face frames all
floating tenon joints for the face frames and fitted to the panels with
grooves. I leveled a 10' piece of 1x3 soft maple to use as a ledger to set
the short cabinets on while I anchored all cabinets to the wall with 1/4" x
3.5" SPAX lad screws. No surprises and fortunately the wall was plumb,
although not flat.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/shares/9W2kZZ

Great looking job!, Next thing will be a workbench and drawers since
his new truck won't fit.

Is the large cabinet floating off the floor?
Thank you for showing the pics. And I am very glad it isn't me that is
painting the cabinets after installation.!!

I'm curious, do the floating tenon's get in the way, or too close to
the grooves, or do you place small ones in a clear space, or?

On 4/9/2016 10:44 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/9/2016 9:06 AM, Leon wrote:

I'll to refer that one to Swingman. LOL

No problem ... can get a beam/header in the space without even taking
your upper cabinets out, but the "bump out" in the living room will look
kinda funny.

Wonder if that guy will ever fully appreciate how much of a favor you
did him by incorporating the center supports for the adjustable shelves?


I did that for him and me. He will not be calling me to tell me that
the shelves are not strong enough to not bow. ;~)




You ruined him for good, Bubba ...

On 4/9/2016 4:02 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:58:43 -0500, Leon wrote:


So this job went pretty quick. These garage cabinets are 182" wide and the
tall cabinet is 92" tall. Short cabs are 30" tall. These are
reconstructed in the usual manner that I do, front and back face frames all
floating tenon joints for the face frames and fitted to the panels with
grooves. I leveled a 10' piece of 1x3 soft maple to use as a ledger to set
the short cabinets on while I anchored all cabinets to the wall with 1/4" x
3.5" SPAX lad screws. No surprises and fortunately the wall was plumb,
although not flat.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/shares/9W2kZZ

Great looking job!, Next thing will be a workbench and drawers since
his new truck won't fit.

Thank you. Actually I have to go back next month and put in a 15'x 3'
single level storage shelf in his garage bump out. It will be
approximately 6.5' from the floor and mostly 2x4 and plywood construction.


Is the large cabinet floating off the floor?

No. It actually has a 2x3 base located inside the bottom but extends
about 1/2" out of the bottom. Mounted to the 2x3 base frame are 4
adjustable screw feet that are adjustable through the bottom of that
cabinet. I needed to have some wiggle room so that the tops of all of
the cabinets would need to be in alignment. I/we hung the smaller
cabinets first and I adjusted the tall cabinet accordingly. This also
prevents any water from wicking into the bottoms of the MDO sides should
there ever be a moisture problem with the concrete floor.




Thank you for showing the pics.

You are welcome!

And I am very glad it isn't me that is
painting the cabinets after installation.!!

Me 2!


I'm curious, do the floating tenon's get in the way, or too close to
the grooves, or do you place small ones in a clear space, or?


With the Domino I can precicely place the mortices to receive the
tenons. The rails are wide enough that I could put 2 floating Domino
tenons side by side about 3/4" apart away from the grove.

Looking at the bottom right corner of this FF there is about 2-3/4" of
wood below the grove. that is where the tenons are

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/



But that brings up a good point. When I build back face frames to
receive backs I use lap joints and Floating tenons. I have to watch out
to miss the groves and to miss the lap joint tenons.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

The above examples form this back FF joint.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

All lap joints and floating tenons for this back FF.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

On Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:31:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/9/2016 4:02 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:58:43 -0500, Leon wrote:

snip

Is the large cabinet floating off the floor?

No. It actually has a 2x3 base located inside the bottom but extends
about 1/2" out of the bottom. Mounted to the 2x3 base frame are 4
adjustable screw feet that are adjustable through the bottom of that
cabinet. I needed to have some wiggle room so that the tops of all of
the cabinets would need to be in alignment. I/we hung the smaller
cabinets first and I adjusted the tall cabinet accordingly. This also
prevents any water from wicking into the bottoms of the MDO sides should
there ever be a moisture problem with the concrete floor.


Wouldn't this also be a good idea for kitchen cabinets setting on a
concrete slab? If so, then would quarter round molding or similar be
used to cover the floor gap?




Thank you for showing the pics.

You are welcome!

And I am very glad it isn't me that is
painting the cabinets after installation.!!

Me 2!


I'm curious, do the floating tenon's get in the way, or too close to
the grooves, or do you place small ones in a clear space, or?


With the Domino I can precicely place the mortices to receive the
tenons. The rails are wide enough that I could put 2 floating Domino
tenons side by side about 3/4" apart away from the grove.

Looking at the bottom right corner of this FF there is about 2-3/4" of
wood below the grove. that is where the tenons are

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/



Well Leon, this is all impressive and somewhat intimidating seeing the
various joints, knowing that they aren't just something thrown
together at the last minute. Between you and Karl, there is a ton of
stuff to see and learn.

These lapped, mortise and grove joints look like they would last
through an earthquake while the entire house falls apart.

I also took the time to look at some of your picture links showing
some cabinet doors to a project you did in 2013, It was really
difficult, or should I say impossible to see your joints and if it
wasn't for seeing a couple panels in clamps I couldn't even guess
where they were joined. They looked like one solid slab of wood.

I looked at some door pricing, per Karl's suggestion, and,...well...I
am glad I am retired so that I will have time to learn and build.

Since everything is going to be painted, would it be wise to use MDF
for the door panels, and shape those for a raised, arch panel? With
fresh router bits and a leisurely pace should it be doable, or should
I follow another path?


But that brings up a good point. When I build back face frames to
receive backs I use lap joints and Floating tenons. I have to watch out
to miss the groves and to miss the lap joint tenons.

I think I am going to make a router jig for the mortise's on the
stiles, and give that a try. Somehow, with biscuits it seems that the
joint would be weak due to the flimsy nature of the biscuits, while
dowels use hard wood or am I missing something.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

The above examples form this back FF joint.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

All lap joints and floating tenons for this back FF.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


I've been wanting to reply to this for a while, but had too much going
on. Thank you Leon for all your advice here and the pictures that
support it.

On 4/15/2016 4:58 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:31:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/9/2016 4:02 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:58:43 -0500, Leon wrote:

snip

Is the large cabinet floating off the floor?

No. It actually has a 2x3 base located inside the bottom but extends
about 1/2" out of the bottom. Mounted to the 2x3 base frame are 4
adjustable screw feet that are adjustable through the bottom of that
cabinet. I needed to have some wiggle room so that the tops of all of
the cabinets would need to be in alignment. I/we hung the smaller
cabinets first and I adjusted the tall cabinet accordingly. This also
prevents any water from wicking into the bottoms of the MDO sides should
there ever be a moisture problem with the concrete floor.


Wouldn't this also be a good idea for kitchen cabinets setting on a
concrete slab? If so, then would quarter round molding or similar be
used to cover the floor gap?

Absolutely, and how Swingman and I have built some of the Kitchens that
we have worked together on in the past.
BUT we used shims to level the base IIRC. Using adjustable feet is an
elegant but more expensive way to eliminate shimming.
The 2x4's can be covered with kick plate molding and or a matching
hardwood and quarter round. The 2x4 would not be very pretty to look
at. ;!)







Thank you for showing the pics.

You are welcome!

And I am very glad it isn't me that is
painting the cabinets after installation.!!

Me 2!


I'm curious, do the floating tenon's get in the way, or too close to
the grooves, or do you place small ones in a clear space, or?


With the Domino I can precicely place the mortices to receive the
tenons. The rails are wide enough that I could put 2 floating Domino
tenons side by side about 3/4" apart away from the grove.

Looking at the bottom right corner of this FF there is about 2-3/4" of
wood below the grove. that is where the tenons are

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/



Well Leon, this is all impressive and somewhat intimidating seeing the
various joints, knowing that they aren't just something thrown
together at the last minute. Between you and Karl, there is a ton of
stuff to see and learn.

I have posted my latest cabinet job, that makes 47 that I have built
this way. It is really pretty simple, now. LOL. All I can say is that
having all joints, except the FF rail and stile joints, fit together
with dad0's and groves leaves no room for error. If something is not
right the cabinet simply will not go together at all. That is some what
intimidating considering you don't really find out until the final glue
of of the panels pieces and FF's. But 47 cabinets later that has not
yet happened. Good and accurate drawings and double checking cuts is an
absolute necessity. Quality of materials plays an important role also.
If the plywood panels are warped they work gainst yo when fitting them
into dado's and groves. The MDO is pleasantly flat so it was/is a joy
to work with.



These lapped, mortise and grove joints look like they would last
through an earthquake while the entire house falls apart.

I hope so. I tell my customers that their grand children will inherit
the furniture.


I also took the time to look at some of your picture links showing
some cabinet doors to a project you did in 2013, It was really
difficult, or should I say impossible to see your joints and if it
wasn't for seeing a couple panels in clamps I couldn't even guess
where they were joined. They looked like one solid slab of wood.

Was that the walnut doors?

I looked at some door pricing, per Karl's suggestion, and,...well...I
am glad I am retired so that I will have time to learn and build.

The big thing to remember when building doors is to use flat and
straight stick, and cut all same length pieces at the same time. Any
deviation in the lengths of rails and stiles makes joints difficult to
assemble.




Since everything is going to be painted, would it be wise to use MDF
for the door panels, and shape those for a raised, arch panel? With
fresh router bits and a leisurely pace should it be doable, or should
I follow another path?

If I were only going to use "plain" flat panel doors, I would go with
the water resistant MDF. If you are going to introduce arches and or
floating panels I personally would go with solid wood rails and stiles
and a plywood floating panel or solid wood raised panel center panel.
The surface of MDF is pretty good to receive paint. If you use a router
bit to introduce a decorative cut below the outer surface of the MDF you
get into the softer section of the panel. That requires more fineness
than I have to paint and appear/feel smooth. Perhaps priming with
something to seal and sand before painting might be the ticket.

You might want to get some input from Nailshooter on how to go after that.







But that brings up a good point. When I build back face frames to
receive backs I use lap joints and Floating tenons. I have to watch out
to miss the groves and to miss the lap joint tenons.

I think I am going to make a router jig for the mortise's on the
stiles, and give that a try. Somehow, with biscuits it seems that the
joint would be weak due to the flimsy nature of the biscuits, while
dowels use hard wood or am I missing something.

This joint is very easy to produce and strong, I have never had one
fail. I cut the groves to receive the panel with a flat grind/rip TS
blade to produce a flat bottom and cut the tenons on the ends of the
rails to fit those groves with a stacked dado set.

Again consistent thickness and exact length on rails and stiles is
paramount ins a good fitting joint.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/





https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

The above examples form this back FF joint.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

All lap joints and floating tenons for this back FF.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


I've been wanting to reply to this for a while, but had too much going
on. Thank you Leon for all your advice here and the pictures that
support it.


You are very welcome, it is people like you that appreciate the details
and make comments that make it worth while.

On 4/15/2016 5:34 PM, Leon wrote:


This joint is very easy to produce and strong, I have never had one
fail. I cut the groves to receive the panel with a flat grind/rip TS
blade to produce a flat bottom and cut the tenons on the ends of the
rails to fit those groves with a stacked dado set.

Again consistent thickness and exact length on rails and stiles is
paramount ins a good fitting joint.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


Something I meant to say. If you use solid wood panels, they need to be
floating and they need to be narrower than the width between the bottoms
of the groves that they fit in. Wide glued up solid wood panels will
swell and shrink and can literally break a door if there is not room
allowed for the panel expansion.

So prefinishing/painting the center panel is necessary so that when it
shrinks it does not reveal unfinished wood.

A product called "space balls" are good to use in the groves to keep the
panels centered. the space palls will compress and expand as the panel
changes shape with climate changes.

On 4/15/2016 4:58 PM, OFWW wrote:

Wouldn't this also be a good idea for kitchen cabinets setting on a
concrete slab?

The two most important parameters for designing and installing base
cabinets:

1. Protection against leaks and/or wicking.

2. The height of "finished floor" (FF) with regard to desired counter
top height.

If you're redoing the cabinets and a toe kick is not built in, and they
must sit on a concrete slab, use a base of PT material, made of plywood
or lumber (with sides tall enough to take into account future, installed
flooring).

Although not a kitchen, the idea, illustrated here, is the same:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554... 306196509570

(an added advantage is that you level the "base", and not individual
cabinets)

If the toe kick is built-in and must be installed on concrete: design
the toe kick height to accommodate future FF; and use a moisture barrier
.... or better yet (and particularly if they are purchased cabinets),
install the new cabinets on top of the new flooring.

The idea of both parameters above is to prevent rot, from wicking and
leaks, but also to preclude future problems with installing appliances
like dishwasher, ice machines, and refrigerators after installation of
new and future flooring.

(not uncommon to see new tile laid on top of old floors)

Keep in mind the standard height of a kitchen base cabinet (without
counter top) should be 34 1/2" above finished floor (FF).

This gives you clearance for industry standard appliances; plus 1 1/2"
for substrate and counter top (total = 36" above FF); which insures
clearance for drawers, doors and appliances.

To do that, you need to plan for existing, and future, FF height in your
cabinet design.

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)