I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and
1/4" paint grade panels.

He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?

2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:13:45 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and
1/4" paint grade panels.

He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?

2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.


What operating range ? 110 degree only for integral soft close ?
If you want a 120 or 180 degree range - the soft close damper is
separate option and clips onto the hinge .. or dampers are available
as stand-alone - to be used with any springed hinge.
I would go with clip-on - then you can add or remove - to suit the
spring pressure of the various doors.
John T.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 03/04/2016 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:
I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and 1/4"
paint grade panels.

He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?

2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.

Should be rating by weight from manufacturer, Leon?

For the big 'uns I get roughly 35-40 lb/door which is substantial if go MDF.

I'd suggest unless there's something in these 90" cabinets that is
actually 7-ft long (which I suppose is possible if is planning on
hanging yard tools behind doors which personally I think is a mistake,
too ) he'll rue the decision down the road...but that's not the
question asked...

--

On 3/4/2016 9:45 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/04/2016 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:
I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and 1/4"
paint grade panels.

He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?

2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.

Should be rating by weight from manufacturer, Leon?

I should probably check in to that on the web site. ;~)


For the big 'uns I get roughly 35-40 lb/door which is substantial if go
MDF.

I'd suggest unless there's something in these 90" cabinets that is
actually 7-ft long (which I suppose is possible if is planning on
hanging yard tools behind doors which personally I think is a mistake,
too ) he'll rue the decision down the road...but that's not the
question asked...

On tall doors, the lower 58 or so inches will store golf clubs, above
that a fixed shelf and an adjustable shelf.

On 3/4/2016 10:14 AM, Leon wrote:

On tall doors, the lower 58 or so inches will store golf clubs, above
that a fixed shelf and an adjustable shelf.

If you need a jointer to whip stiles that long into stock flat enough
for doors, you do know someone who has one ... LOL

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On 03/04/2016 10:14 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/4/2016 9:45 AM, dpb wrote:
....

I'd suggest unless there's something in these 90" cabinets that is
actually 7-ft long (which I suppose is possible if is planning on
hanging yard tools behind doors which personally I think is a mistake,
too ) he'll rue the decision down the road...but that's not the
question asked...

On tall doors, the lower 58 or so inches will store golf clubs, above
that a fixed shelf and an adjustable shelf.

Boy, I'd really try to talk him into splitting 'em at the fixed shelf
height then. As Robert says, keeping those in plane for 20 yr in a
garage is going to be no mean feat...

--

On 3/4/2016 11:46 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/04/2016 10:14 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/4/2016 9:45 AM, dpb wrote:
...

I'd suggest unless there's something in these 90" cabinets that is
actually 7-ft long (which I suppose is possible if is planning on
hanging yard tools behind doors which personally I think is a mistake,
too ) he'll rue the decision down the road...but that's not the
question asked...

On tall doors, the lower 58 or so inches will store golf clubs, above
that a fixed shelf and an adjustable shelf.

Boy, I'd really try to talk him into splitting 'em at the fixed shelf
height then. As Robert says, keeping those in plane for 20 yr in a
garage is going to be no mean feat...

--



If he swallows the price I gave him I may make that 4 doors on that cab
instead of 2.

On 3/4/2016 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

Except for 3-8 doors or ones that extraordinarily heavy, I rarely use
more than 3 hinges on any door.

IME, and particularly with cabinets doors, it is rarely necessary, and
you will find adjusting the alignment of four euro hinges for smooth
operation over a long length can be problematic if there is even the
slightest lack of flatness, which is not unusual with taller doors over
time.

AAMOF, a couple of times I've had to remove a hinge completely, and plug
the cup hole, to get a door to work properly.

Then again, if you feel the need, and it works, go with your gut.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?


IME, they all need to be the same. Insuring all hinges are the same
type, make and model is paramount for a smooth, lasting operation.

2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.

I'll choose a high quality, built-in soft close, hinge over an "add on"
part every time ... more points of failure, higher possibility for call
backs.

YMMV ... and as long as it works, and the client is happy...

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On 3/4/2016 9:49 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/4/2016 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

Except for 3-8 doors or ones that extraordinarily heavy, I rarely use
more than 3 hinges on any door.

IME, and particularly with cabinets doors, it is rarely necessary, and
you will find adjusting the alignment of four euro hinges for smooth
operation over a long length can be problematic if there is even the
slightest lack of flatness, which is not unusual with taller doors over
time.

It does get tricky when more than 2 hinges are used. I think he is
going to steer toward the lighter frame and panel doors so I may revisit
2 or 3 hinges on each.





AAMOF, a couple of times I've had to remove a hinge completely, and plug
the cup hole, to get a door to work properly.

Then again, if you feel the need, and it works, go with your gut.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?


IME, they all need to be the same. Insuring all hinges are the same
type, make and model is paramount for a smooth, lasting operation.

OK, all the same.





2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each
door.

I'll choose a high quality, built-in soft close, hinge over an "add on"
part every time ... more points of failure, higher possibility for call
backs.

One more question, the all in one units, are you buying the edge mount
FF style hinges?




YMMV ... and as long as it works, and the client is happy...

On 3/4/2016 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:

One more question, the all in one units, are you buying the edge mount
FF style hinges?

In soft close, I particularly like the 110 S/C Salice hinges ... good
overlay and installation, choices and the quality/price ration has been
excellent, to date.

CornerStone is my goto supplier and I usually go with something on this
page:

http://www.cabinethardware.com/Searc...rch=salice+110

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On 3/4/2016 10:47 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/4/2016 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:

One more question, the all in one units, are you buying the edge mount
FF style hinges?

In soft close, I particularly like the 110 S/C Salice hinges ... good
overlay and installation, choices and the quality/price ration has been
excellent, to date.

CornerStone is my goto supplier and I usually go with something on this
page:

http://www.cabinethardware.com/Searc...rch=salice+110



I found a Blum, essentially the same that I buy 50 at a time but with
soft close.

http://www.wwhardware.com/blum-compa...ft-close-hinge

And the hinge I normally use.

http://www.wwhardware.com/blum-compa...g-hinges-b038n

On 3/4/16 4:07 PM, Leon wrote:
I found a Blum, essentially the same that I buy 50 at a time but with
soft close.

http://www.wwhardware.com/blum-compa...ft-close-hinge



I just installed a bunch of those on a hinge replacement job and I was
impressed with their strength, adjustability, and operation. Good
choice IMO.



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On 3/4/2016 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:

It does get tricky when more than 2 hinges are used. I think he is
going to steer toward the lighter frame and panel doors so I may revisit
2 or 3 hinges on each.

I know you already know this, but for anyone else wondering, I'd talk up
the water resistant MDF slab doors hard, and also turn those tall ones
into 2 each.

MDF may be heavy, but once finished, much more likely to start flat, and
stay flat over time, and so damned easy/inexpensive to cut/replace, and
they look great.

Remember these?

https://goo.gl/photos/LoZGU8oJAfXDQc6i9

Linda and I were invited for this past Thanksgiving dinner and those
doors are still as flat, with the same precise 3/32 reveal, as the day
you and I installed them five years ago.

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On 3/4/2016 12:03 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/4/2016 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:

It does get tricky when more than 2 hinges are used. I think he is
going to steer toward the lighter frame and panel doors so I may revisit
2 or 3 hinges on each.

I know you already know this, but for anyone else wondering, I'd talk up
the water resistant MDF slab doors hard, and also turn those tall ones
into 2 each.

I just learned today that Hardwood Products no longer caries the green
water resistant MDF. ;~) Have you bought it any other place?




MDF may be heavy, but once finished, much more likely to start flat, and
stay flat over time, and so damned easy/inexpensive to cut/replace, and
they look great.

Remember these?

https://goo.gl/photos/LoZGU8oJAfXDQc6i9

Linda and I were invited for this past Thanksgiving dinner and those
doors are still as flat, with the same precise 3/32 reveal, as the day
you and I installed them five years ago.

On 3/4/16 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:
I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and
1/4" paint grade panels.

He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?

2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.


All integrated soft-close hinges.
They difference in price is minuscule and would be superseded by your
labor to install the adapters.


--

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--
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On 3/4/2016 11:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/4/16 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:
I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and
1/4" paint grade panels.

He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?

2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each
door.


All integrated soft-close hinges.
They difference in price is minuscule and would be superseded by your
labor to install the adapters.




I think that is a good idea, I typically buy Blum 1/2" overlay 50 at a
time. I just learned that the same hinge comes with soft close.

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 9:14:00 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and
1/4" paint grade panels.

I think the manufacturer's suggestion would be the way to tackle the number of hinges. They will have their calculations built into their recommendations that will include weight and the ability of the hinges to move a door.

Also... might I suggest MDO instead of MDF for the large doors if you go that route? Water resistant MDF will warp and move in high temps and humidity, IME even after sealing .

MDO would be probably be lighter too. If you went with the rail/stile construct, you could also use MDO in your panels for a split decision between your two presented options.

Even if the MDF was "water resistant", that doesn't mean you won't get movement. (DAMHIKT) At the least, I would borrow Karl's Earlex and squirt a coat of shellac on the faces before starting, and then again on the edges after cutting to final size.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Robert

On 3/4/2016 12:11 PM, wrote:

Also... might I suggest MDO instead of MDF for the large doors if you go that route? Water resistant MDF will warp and move in high temps and humidity, IME even after sealing .

My experience with products like UltraStock, Medite and Medex, all MDF
products, has been different.

Leon will attest to the fact that I left a piece of 3/4 UltraStock mdf
in a clients birdbath fountain for a week, and it came out looking like
it went in ... pristine.

Also left a 4x4 cutoff of UltraStock out in the weather, leaning against
my fence for well over a year. Used it later for jigs and it was bit
weather stained, but still flat, with no ragged or blown edges, or warp
in evidence.

Also used Medex for 20' run of tall sliding doors in a set of carport
cabinets (open on two sides) quite a few years back. Still looking new
and standing the test of time thus far.

Basically, wouldn't hesitate to use those type products in an average
garage environment in this locale.

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On 3/4/2016 1:22 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/4/2016 12:11 PM, wrote:

Also... might I suggest MDO instead of MDF for the large doors if you
go that route? Water resistant MDF will warp and move in high temps
and humidity, IME even after sealing .

My experience with products like UltraStock, Medite and Medex, all MDF
products, has been different.

Leon will attest to the fact that I left a piece of 3/4 UltraStock mdf
in a clients birdbath fountain for a week, and it came out looking like
it went in ... pristine.

Also left a 4x4 cutoff of UltraStock out in the weather, leaning against
my fence for well over a year. Used it later for jigs and it was bit
weather stained, but still flat, with no ragged or blown edges, or warp
in evidence.

Also used Medex for 20' run of tall sliding doors in a set of carport
cabinets (open on two sides) quite a few years back. Still looking new
and standing the test of time thus far.

Basically, wouldn't hesitate to use those type products in an average
garage environment in this locale.


I built a lazy Susan with that same water resistant MDF scraps that we
used on that kitchen job. The lazy Susan sat on the grass in the back
yard with my water hose reel mounted on top.

It was rained on regularity and sat on the damp grass every morning. I
eventually disassembled it because the set up did not work like I wanted
but the MDF was still pretty decent looking. I did not throw away the MDF.

On 3/4/2016 12:11 PM, wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 9:14:00 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors,
solid panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar
frame and 1/4" paint grade panels.

I think the manufacturer's suggestion would be the way to tackle the
number of hinges. They will have their calculations built into their
recommendations that will include weight and the ability of the
hinges to move a door.

Also... might I suggest MDO instead of MDF for the large doors if you
go that route? Water resistant MDF will warp and move in high temps
and humidity, IME even after sealing .

MDO would be probably be lighter too. If you went with the rail/stile
construct, you could also use MDO in your panels for a split decision
between your two presented options.

Even if the MDF was "water resistant", that doesn't mean you won't
get movement. (DAMHIKT) At the least, I would borrow Karl's Earlex
and squirt a coat of shellac on the faces before starting, and then
again on the edges after cutting to final size.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Robert


Thank you Robert!

A couple of things, the customer is going to paint the cabinets.

BUT my last couple of purchases of domestic, paint quality birch plywood
ended up with the outer veneer lifting with the water based primer. I
was not happy but worked around that.

I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
and shelves.

And I think the tall door may become two shorter doors.

On 3/4/2016 4:19 PM, Leon wrote:

I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
and shelves.

MDO works well, as long as you're prepared to do edge banding, only very
light easing/no round overs (without a lot of sizing/prepping edges for
painting).

Check availability carefully..

Last time I used MDO, Clark's was about the only place that carried it
in 3/4".

Hardwood Products didn't carry it then, maybe they do now? It's not on
my price sheet.

Home Depot carried it at one time, but only 3/8". That might have changed.

Dixie lumber used to carry it also, but haven't seen much around lately.

I managed to order the last 3/4 MDO I used through Detering, much
cheaper than Clark's.

And, let me know what you find out with regard to price availability.

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On 3/4/16 7:27 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/4/2016 4:19 PM, Leon wrote:

I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
and shelves.


Have you guys seem this stuff?
http://www.panguaneta.com/en/classic...po-mdf-plywood
I saw it used a could weeks ago and it freaked me out.
Advantages on veneer plywood plus the smooth paint-ability of hard mdf?


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On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 8:07:03 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

Have you guys seem this stuff?
http://www.panguaneta.com/en/classic...po-mdf-plywood
I saw it used a could weeks ago and it freaked me out.
Advantages on veneer plywood plus the smooth paint-ability of hard mdf?

It has been around for years. Sign makers use it, it winds up in boats and marine applications, etc. I first saw it when it was being used by a sign company and they gave me some cutoffs. One groups of cut offs had smooth wood on both sides over resin soaked/heat/pressure/treated plies of veneer, and was made to be painted or stained. Some of the other pieces had a hard, colored acrylic board bonded to it. The sign guys told me that they could also get that same wood or plastic exterior ply with an aluminum core!

Look for it under its old name of "hdo" or high density overlay. I is also called "sign board" or some such by some.

BTW... it is nasty expensive in some of its forms, so not really too practical except for its own specialty use.

Robert

On 3/4/2016 7:27 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/4/2016 4:19 PM, Leon wrote:

I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
and shelves.

MDO works well, as long as you're prepared to do edge banding, only very
light easing/no round overs (without a lot of sizing/prepping edges for
painting).

I have decided to use MDO instead of the paint grade birch plywood for
the panels of the cabinet and the shelves. It was probably a fluke that
the veneer on my last PG plywood lifted after priming with water base,
but I don't want to take a chance on that happening again.




Check availability carefully..

Right after reading Roberts comment about using it I called Hardwood
Products. They have it in 3/4" only at $64.95 per sheet. I need 4
sheets and I'll gladly eat the difference in profit. The domestic PG
was 44.95.


Last time I used MDO, Clark's was about the only place that carried it
in 3/4".

Hardwood Products didn't carry it then, maybe they do now? It's not on
my price sheet.

Home Depot carried it at one time, but only 3/8". That might have changed.

Dixie lumber used to carry it also, but haven't seen much around lately.

I managed to order the last 3/4 MDO I used through Detering, much
cheaper than Clark's.

And, let me know what you find out with regard to price availability.

See above.

And now that we are talking different plywood, MDF, and MDO this
reminded me of some oak veneered stain grade plywood I bought many many
years ago from HW Products. I have never seen it since.

First outer ply veneers were oak, naturally, immediately under, on each
side, was a layer of MDF, and then the 3 center plys of what ever wood
is normally used. That stuff was crazy flat and no voids under the
outer veneer. And it cut just a little bit easier on my old 1hp
Craftsman TS.

On 3/5/2016 8:20 AM, Leon wrote:

It was probably a fluke that the veneer on my last PG plywood lifted
after priming with water base, but I don't want to take a chance on
that happening again.

I think you got bit by the push to reduce formaldehyde in glues these days.

First outer ply veneers were oak, naturally, immediately under, on each
side, was a layer of MDF, and then the 3 center plys of what ever wood
is normally used. That stuff was crazy flat and no voids under the
outer veneer. And it cut just a little bit easier on my old 1hp
Craftsman TS.

Last time I looked they still have it. IIRC, it's called "combined-core"
or "combination core".

Spece'ed a LEED kitchen project with it once and it was nixed due to the
formaldehyde content at the time ... ruined their little warm fuzzies.

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On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 08:20:16 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 3/4/2016 7:27 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/4/2016 4:19 PM, Leon wrote:

I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
and shelves.

MDO works well, as long as you're prepared to do edge banding, only very
light easing/no round overs (without a lot of sizing/prepping edges for
painting).

I have decided to use MDO instead of the paint grade birch plywood for
the panels of the cabinet and the shelves. It was probably a fluke that
the veneer on my last PG plywood lifted after priming with water base,
but I don't want to take a chance on that happening again.




Check availability carefully..

Right after reading Roberts comment about using it I called Hardwood
Products. They have it in 3/4" only at $64.95 per sheet. I need 4
sheets and I'll gladly eat the difference in profit. The domestic PG
was 44.95.


Last time I used MDO, Clark's was about the only place that carried it
in 3/4".

Hardwood Products didn't carry it then, maybe they do now? It's not on
my price sheet.

Home Depot carried it at one time, but only 3/8". That might have changed.

Dixie lumber used to carry it also, but haven't seen much around lately.

I managed to order the last 3/4 MDO I used through Detering, much
cheaper than Clark's.

And, let me know what you find out with regard to price availability.

See above.

And now that we are talking different plywood, MDF, and MDO this
reminded me of some oak veneered stain grade plywood I bought many many
years ago from HW Products. I have never seen it since.

First outer ply veneers were oak, naturally, immediately under, on each
side, was a layer of MDF, and then the 3 center plys of what ever wood
is normally used. That stuff was crazy flat and no voids under the
outer veneer. And it cut just a little bit easier on my old 1hp
Craftsman TS.

http://www.menards.com/main/search.html?search=mdo

Menards, evidently all over the northern states carries it.

HD says to talk to the lumber dept exec in your area.

I have been looking for MDO since finding out it was best for painted
cabinets as it had a flat surface, where even the best plywood's when
painted showed all the variances under the skin.

I am going to check around here. Roseberg, Oregon is just past the
state line a bit, and I think we should get first dibs. LOL.

MDF unless you get the stuff made for bath rooms is like regular
particle board as to usability.

As you can tell, I am on the hunt too. The stuff from Italy for
painted cabinets, or for veneering looks promising.