I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.

On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.



The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:48:57 -0600, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

Washington allows it. I've found that my ancient 500cc motorcycle gets
50mpg with ethanol, 60 without. And the ethanol does bad things to tank
liners in old bikes.

BTW, eliminating 10% ethanol increases my bikes mileage by 20%. Tell me
how I'm lowering pollution with ethanol :-).





--
It's turtles, all the way down!

Unquestionably Confused wrote:

The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

There are currently 81 stations in Illinois selling ethanol-free
gasoline according to the most excellent pure-gas.org website:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IL

On 12/27/2015 1:58 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
Unquestionably Confused wrote:

The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

There are currently 81 stations in Illinois selling ethanol-free
gasoline according to the most excellent pure-gas.org website:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IL

Thanks for reminding me of that. After being told of the pre-mix and
using it. I went looking for premium here without success. Found that
very site and, unfortunately, those are all downstate pumps subject to
different regulations which are imposed on us "lucky" devils residing in
NE Illinois. I can, however, head north about 15 miles and get all the
premium, ETOH free gas I want.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:32:27 -0800 (PST), Michael
wrote:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
high octane fuel does not cause an engine to run hotter, contrary to
common belief. However, running gasahol MAY cause the engine to run
cooler due to reduced energy content. The chances of damage due to
running "hooch" FAR outway any possibility of damage from running
high-test fuel.
If the octane is too low (and adding oil lowers the octane) an engine
will detonate, and detonation transfers more heat to the piston, cyl,
and head by disrupting the "boundary layers" causing the engine to
overheat quickly.

In aircraft, the first sign of incipient detonation is a simultanious
increase in head temperature and drop in EGT (Exhaust Gas
Temperature).

When that happens you have seconds to pull back on the throttle to
avoid engine damage and possible engine failure. Doesn't matter if
it's a 2 stroke ultralight or a 4 stroke Lycosaurus

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:48:57 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.



The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

I use alcohol-free gas for my small machines (yard tractor on down).
It's readily available, though expensive, here in Georgia. It doesn't
surprise me that it's illegal in IL. Nothing IL does surprises me.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:58:50 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:

Unquestionably Confused wrote:

The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

There are currently 81 stations in Illinois selling ethanol-free
gasoline according to the most excellent pure-gas.org website:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IL

Wow! 700 Sq. Mi. per gas station. They shouldn't make it so easy to
get!

snips

The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

Washington allows it. I've found that my ancient 500cc motorcycle gets
50mpg with ethanol, 60 without. And the ethanol does bad things to tank
liners in old bikes.

BTW, eliminating 10% ethanol increases my bikes mileage by 20%. Tell me
how I'm lowering pollution with ethanol :-).


This Canada Natural Resources website

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/fcr-rcf/public/index-e.cfm

shows some fuel economy data -
- example - 2013 Dodge 1500 8 cyl. auto pickup -

on regular gas 14.6 litres per 100 km
on E85 ethanol 21.8 litres per 100 km

"regular gas" might be some ethanol content ?
in your area. ? dunno.

A difference of ~ 7 litres per 100 kM !
for using the highly subsidized corn alcohol .. ?

Geeeze ... am I missing something ?

John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Michael wrote in
:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
compression to require premium gas.

If you use the chainsaw frequently, regular gas is fine.
If you use it intermittantly then try to find ethanol-
free gas, since ethanol sitting in the carb will eventually
eat away the insides and you'll need a carb rebuild.

If you can, run it dry when you're done using it,
whichever kind of gas you use.

John

wrote in news:hbp08bh7j6h18fpb5gv4npmgae7ckg1hfq@
4ax.com:

"regular gas" might be some ethanol content ?
in your area. ? dunno.

Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how
much depends on whatever other additives they're using,
and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting
ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective
octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such
as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.

A difference of ~ 7 litres per 100 kM !
for using the highly subsidized corn alcohol .. ?

Geeeze ... am I missing something ?

That sounds about right for E85. Corn alcohol makes
a very poor fuel. With current technology, the only
economically viable (and enviromentally sound) way
to make alcohol fuel is to start with sugar.

John

On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Should not matter at all, Premium over regular is simply more of an
additive to increase octane to help prevent engine knock.

Vehicles have knock sensors that listen for knock and will retard the
ignition timing to help prevent engine knock with cheaper grades of
fuel. Premium fuel typically helps to prevent knock and the ignition
timing will electronically advance for better power and gas mileage.

In the old days when you set the ignition timing manually the engines
would truly run hotter if you advanced the timing too much.

Relatively modern engines these days monitor all of the engine functions
and make adjustments accordingly.

If you chain saw has an electronic ignition and a knock sensor the
timing could be advancing with premium fuel and running hotter. Or you
could simply be getting a more complete burn with the better fuel and
naturally running a bit hotter.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:59:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

wrote in news:hbp08bh7j6h18fpb5gv4npmgae7ckg1hfq@
4ax.com:

"regular gas" might be some ethanol content ?
in your area. ? dunno.

Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how
much depends on whatever other additives they're using,
and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting
ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective
octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such
as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.

The reason ethanol is added to fuel in North America is NOT for octane
improvement. It is added as an "oxygenator"
It is supposed to reduce the carbon monaxide and particulate emissions
of the vehicle.
A difference of ~ 7 litres per 100 kM !
for using the highly subsidized corn alcohol .. ?

Geeeze ... am I missing something ?

That sounds about right for E85. Corn alcohol makes
a very poor fuel. With current technology, the only
economically viable (and enviromentally sound) way
to make alcohol fuel is to start with sugar.

John
Brazil runs almost exclusively on cane ethanol.

On 12/27/2015 5:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Michael wrote in
:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
compression to require premium gas.

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

So If yo want to avoid alcohol in the fuel, which attracts moisture, buy
premium.





If you use the chainsaw frequently, regular gas is fine.
If you use it intermittantly then try to find ethanol-
free gas, since ethanol sitting in the carb will eventually
eat away the insides and you'll need a carb rebuild.


If you can, run it dry when you're done using it,
whichever kind of gas you use.

John

I started using Stabil in my gas can and my fuel does well for months on
end, from one season to the next. The label claims that it will keep
the gas good for 2 years, and now I believe it. Still a good idea to
run the carb/tank dry at the end of a season. I only do this however at
the end of the season. Some of my equipment started running badly until
I started treating the gas can about 3 years ago. Now all run
fine...even the Honda that I bought in the spring of 1987.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:49:54 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Michael wrote in
:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
compression to require premium gas.


Tell my Remington saw that. Theoretical is something north of 12:
effective is something around 10.

It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.

My old Partner, on the other hand is around 9:1 theoretical and
5.something effective. The little remington has more OOMPF than the
big partner. The partner would likely run on kerosene if you could get
it lit - the remington will overheat on regular gas, but runs great on
high-test.

Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.

If you use the chainsaw frequently, regular gas is fine.
If you use it intermittantly then try to find ethanol-
free gas, since ethanol sitting in the carb will eventually
eat away the insides and you'll need a carb rebuild.

If you can, run it dry when you're done using it,
whichever kind of gas you use.

John

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:38:38 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 5:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Michael wrote in
:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
compression to require premium gas.

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

So If yo want to avoid alcohol in the fuel, which attracts moisture, buy
premium.

Same many places here. The "regular" gas is 87 minimum octane - may be
slightly higher with up to 10% hooch. The premium is a "tier 3"
gasoline of 91 octane and in the case of Shell (and some others) no
hooch.
Mid-Grade is a mixer pump, blending the hooch-poluted regular with the
high end premium - which yields up to 5% hooch and 89 octane.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:24:40 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Should not matter at all, Premium over regular is simply more of an
additive to increase octane to help prevent engine knock.

Vehicles have knock sensors that listen for knock and will retard the
ignition timing to help prevent engine knock with cheaper grades of
fuel. Premium fuel typically helps to prevent knock and the ignition
timing will electronically advance for better power and gas mileage.

In the old days when you set the ignition timing manually the engines
would truly run hotter if you advanced the timing too much.

Relatively modern engines these days monitor all of the engine functions
and make adjustments accordingly.

If you chain saw has an electronic ignition and a knock sensor the
timing could be advancing with premium fuel and running hotter. Or you
could simply be getting a more complete burn with the better fuel and
naturally running a bit hotter.
Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
control and knock sensing???????
Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
getting pretty fancy in the control department -

wrote:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:38:38 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 5:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Michael wrote in
:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
compression to require premium gas.

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

So If yo want to avoid alcohol in the fuel, which attracts moisture, buy
premium.

Same many places here. The "regular" gas is 87 minimum octane - may be
slightly higher with up to 10% hooch. The premium is a "tier 3"
gasoline of 91 octane and in the case of Shell (and some others) no
hooch.
Mid-Grade is a mixer pump, blending the hooch-poluted regular with the
high end premium - which yields up to 5% hooch and 89 octane.

There are several joints around Ontario selling ethanol-free 87 "regular" gas.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=ON

On 12/27/2015 9:16 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:24:40 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Should not matter at all, Premium over regular is simply more of an
additive to increase octane to help prevent engine knock.

Vehicles have knock sensors that listen for knock and will retard the
ignition timing to help prevent engine knock with cheaper grades of
fuel. Premium fuel typically helps to prevent knock and the ignition
timing will electronically advance for better power and gas mileage.

In the old days when you set the ignition timing manually the engines
would truly run hotter if you advanced the timing too much.

Relatively modern engines these days monitor all of the engine functions
and make adjustments accordingly.

If you chain saw has an electronic ignition and a knock sensor the
timing could be advancing with premium fuel and running hotter. Or you
could simply be getting a more complete burn with the better fuel and
naturally running a bit hotter.


Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
control and knock sensing???????

No no no no No no.... Not that familiar with the modern chain saws. If
none have what I described above, it would not be a stretch for it to be
imagine it happening some day.




Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
getting pretty fancy in the control department -

I bet! Technology would be a better sell on HiPerformance engines, and
could trickle down.

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 03:32:55 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:38:38 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 5:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Michael wrote in
:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
compression to require premium gas.

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

So If yo want to avoid alcohol in the fuel, which attracts moisture, buy
premium.

Same many places here. The "regular" gas is 87 minimum octane - may be
slightly higher with up to 10% hooch. The premium is a "tier 3"
gasoline of 91 octane and in the case of Shell (and some others) no
hooch.
Mid-Grade is a mixer pump, blending the hooch-poluted regular with the
high end premium - which yields up to 5% hooch and 89 octane.

There are several joints around Ontario selling ethanol-free 87 "regular" gas.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=ON

The majority being marinas, the rest independents and specialty or
farm fuel distributors.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 21:35:24 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 9:16 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:24:40 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Should not matter at all, Premium over regular is simply more of an
additive to increase octane to help prevent engine knock.

Vehicles have knock sensors that listen for knock and will retard the
ignition timing to help prevent engine knock with cheaper grades of
fuel. Premium fuel typically helps to prevent knock and the ignition
timing will electronically advance for better power and gas mileage.

In the old days when you set the ignition timing manually the engines
would truly run hotter if you advanced the timing too much.

Relatively modern engines these days monitor all of the engine functions
and make adjustments accordingly.

If you chain saw has an electronic ignition and a knock sensor the
timing could be advancing with premium fuel and running hotter. Or you
could simply be getting a more complete burn with the better fuel and
naturally running a bit hotter.


Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
control and knock sensing???????

No no no no No no.... Not that familiar with the modern chain saws. If
none have what I described above, it would not be a stretch for it to be
imagine it happening some day.

I don't envision a computer controlled injected 2 stroke chain saw in
the near future - the extra weight and the durability concerns make
it somewhat unlikely in my lifetime for any but the largest
professional saws.
The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an end
with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.




Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
getting pretty fancy in the control department -

I bet! Technology would be a better sell on HiPerformance engines, and
could trickle down.

"Michael" wrote in message
...

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my
chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but
I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts?
Thanks.

The manual with my saw recommends a minimum of 89 octane... I use ethanol
free premium gas along with synthetic 2 cycle oil (STIHL HP Ultra) that has
fuel stabilizers. In the past year or so one of the chain convenience stores
started carrying ethanol free premium gas and they are adding store
locations steadily over time--I've got one 7/10ths of a mile from my house
now. I started using this mix in all my Stihl 2 stroke equipment (string
trimmer, hedge clipper, chainsaw), and the gas in my mower, and everything
runs better.

I would expect your saw to run cooler, and better, with the premium fuel as
compared to say 87 octane based on my saw's manual:

"Use mid-grade unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 89 and no
more than 10% ethanol content."
"Fuel with a lower octane rating may increase engine temperatures. This, in
turn, increases the risk of piston seizure and damage to the engine."

John

wrote in message ...

Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
control and knock sensing???????
Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
getting pretty fancy in the control department -

The higher end Stihl and Husqvarna professional saws have engine management
systems available that electronically control the ignition timing and fuel
metering... Both claim to compensate for different fuels, altitude,
humidity, temperature and clogged air filters.

Stihl's is called M-Tronic and Husqvarna's is called Autotune.

That said, the average homeowner or farmer probably isn't going to buy one
of those professional saws... they are costly and excessively powerful for
what mere mortals need in a chainsaw. The guys making a living in the woods
or doing serious tree work are more likely to spend the big bucks...

John

wrote in message ...

Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
control and knock sensing???????
Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
getting pretty fancy in the control department -

Found some videos:

Stihl's video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIBdSURoAQ

Husqvarna video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPaofF186Wg

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:50:42 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"Michael" wrote in message
...

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my
chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but
I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts?
Thanks.

The manual with my saw recommends a minimum of 89 octane... I use ethanol
free premium gas along with synthetic 2 cycle oil (STIHL HP Ultra) that has
fuel stabilizers. In the past year or so one of the chain convenience stores
started carrying ethanol free premium gas and they are adding store
locations steadily over time--I've got one 7/10ths of a mile from my house
now. I started using this mix in all my Stihl 2 stroke equipment (string
trimmer, hedge clipper, chainsaw), and the gas in my mower, and everything
runs better.

I would expect your saw to run cooler, and better, with the premium fuel as
compared to say 87 octane based on my saw's manual:

"Use mid-grade unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 89 and no
more than 10% ethanol content."
"Fuel with a lower octane rating may increase engine temperatures. This, in
turn, increases the risk of piston seizure and damage to the engine."

John
I run nothing but ethanol free premium gas in ALL of my small engine
equipment. For the small amount of fuel I put through them in a year,
the difference in cost is a non-issue, particularly considering the
possible costs of the alternatives. A screwed up carb or a scuffed
piston or siezed engine is too costly to consider trying to save the
7 cents a liter or whatever.

wrote in news:h6318btmbetdivcklbp6av5kmi157ut0rd@
4ax.com:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:59:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:


Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how
much depends on whatever other additives they're using,
and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting
ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective
octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such
as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.

The reason ethanol is added to fuel in North America is NOT for octane
improvement. It is added as an "oxygenator"
It is supposed to reduce the carbon monaxide and particulate emissions
of the vehicle.

You are confusing two different things here, both of
which ethanol happens to be good for.

One is octane rating. Raw gas (no additives) has an octane
rating (*) of around 70, so something has to be added to
raise it to a useful level. Historically that was tetra
ethyl lead, which of course is now banned. Ethanol has an
octane rating of around 110. So adding ethanol to gas is
a very effective way to raise the octane rating.

The second is oxygenation. In ideal conditions there is
enough oxygen in the air entering the engine to completely
burn the fuel. Ideal conditions don't always occur, so
a fuel additive that contains oxygen can help get to
complete combustion. Ethanol contains oxygen, so it is
effective as an oxygenator.

Until 2007 there was a Federal requirement (in the US) to
include oxygenators in fuel. That requirement no longer
exists. The reason ethanol is added to gasoline now is
for it's value as an octane booster.

(* octane rating is a confusing thing, because there are
several common ways of testing it, which give different
numbers. In North America the AKI (or R+M/2) method is
used, which is what the numbers above are based on).

John

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in
:


The higher end Stihl and Husqvarna professional saws have engine
management systems available that electronically control the ignition
timing and fuel metering... Both claim to compensate for different
fuels, altitude, humidity, temperature and clogged air filters.

Stihl's is called M-Tronic and Husqvarna's is called Autotune.

That said, the average homeowner or farmer probably isn't going to buy
one of those professional saws... they are costly and excessively
powerful for what mere mortals need in a chainsaw. The guys making a
living in the woods or doing serious tree work are more likely to
spend the big bucks...

John


Don't forget the tool junkies. "This thing has electric start,
SparkAdvance(TM) (tm)* that automatically fires the spark before cylinder
reaches TDC, TriggerValves (tm) that restrict fuel flow when you're not
running full speed, and OxoInject (tm) for mixing fresh air with the fuel
for better burn!"

* (For marketing reasons "SparkAdvance(TM)" is the trademarked term.)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
other than octane boosters it's generally not so.

I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
and I haven't seen that anywhere.

John

On 12/28/2015 9:08 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
other than octane boosters it's generally not so.

I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
and I haven't seen that anywhere.

Different strokes for different folk, John.

Saw Shell advertising ethanol free premium up in Wisconsin. Not so here
in Illinois (at least not in the NE corner of the state - down south
it's available in some areas).

I think, but not sure, that Shell's ethanol free was tied in to their
"V-Power" blend or somesuch

On 12/28/2015 9:08 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
other than octane boosters it's generally not so.

Actually Shell advertizes Nitrogen, V-power Nitro+ Premium, for better
cleaning only in the Premium.

But typically most all better brand fuels have similar additives in all
grades.




I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
and I haven't seen that anywhere.

Well if it was advertized alcohol free they would certainly catch a
bunch of flack from the tree huggers.

Down here their pumps only claim "May" have up to 10% alcohol.



John

On 12/28/2015 9:23 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/28/2015 9:08 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
other than octane boosters it's generally not so.

I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
and I haven't seen that anywhere.

Different strokes for different folk, John.

Saw Shell advertising ethanol free premium up in Wisconsin. Not so here
in Illinois (at least not in the NE corner of the state - down south
it's available in some areas).

I think, but not sure, that Shell's ethanol free was tied in to their
"V-Power" blend or somesuch


That is the way it is in Texas/Houston

On 12/27/2015 8:41 PM, wrote:

It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.
A shot of ether and the sucker starts like a champ.

Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.

I've had the same chain saw since around 1978. The first tree I cut up
it blew up. My neighbor, a farmer the first 20 years of life, owned a
two man auto repair shop the next 50 years, and a lawnmower repair shop
the next 25 years, told me my mistake was using the 50-1 chainsaw oil
mixture recommend by Sears. He said use regular 20w non-detergent in
something like 9-1 or 20-1, can't recall, it's written on my gas can in
the shed. He said it might smoke a bit, and be hard to start but it
will never freeze up. Arguing with a 95 year old dude that still worked
on small engines 9-9 6 days a week seemed silly, so I gave it a shot.

It was always hard to start, so didn't notice a difference, but learned
to use ether to get er running (even though I was often told ether would
hurt the engine)

I rebuilt the engine, took his advice, and now, almost 40 years later,
the saw still runs great. I haven't used it much lately, getting old,
but last I used it it still ran, and smoked like a champ...

Also, as far as premium gas in a chainsaw, my guess is once you dump oil
in the gas, it doesn't matter much.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:48:46 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

wrote in news:h6318btmbetdivcklbp6av5kmi157ut0rd@
4ax.com:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:59:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:


Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how
much depends on whatever other additives they're using,
and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting
ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective
octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such
as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.

The reason ethanol is added to fuel in North America is NOT for octane
improvement. It is added as an "oxygenator"
It is supposed to reduce the carbon monaxide and particulate emissions
of the vehicle.

You are confusing two different things here, both of
which ethanol happens to be good for.

One is octane rating. Raw gas (no additives) has an octane
rating (*) of around 70, so something has to be added to
raise it to a useful level. Historically that was tetra
ethyl lead, which of course is now banned. Ethanol has an
octane rating of around 110. So adding ethanol to gas is
a very effective way to raise the octane rating.

Hydrocracked/catalytic cracked first run gasoline has an octane of up
to 90 with no additives.

There is no such thing as an "octane" rating of over 100. Over 100 it
is an "aki" or antiknock index..


The second is oxygenation. In ideal conditions there is
enough oxygen in the air entering the engine to completely
burn the fuel. Ideal conditions don't always occur, so
a fuel additive that contains oxygen can help get to
complete combustion. Ethanol contains oxygen, so it is
effective as an oxygenator.

Until 2007 there was a Federal requirement (in the US) to
include oxygenators in fuel. That requirement no longer
exists. The reason ethanol is added to gasoline now is
for it's value as an octane booster.

Then why is ethanol added to regular gas at 10% and not added to
premium (in very many cases)???

The ethanol is added to regular gas because that is the easiest way to
sell the volume of ethanol mandated. The total amount of gasoline sold
in an area needs to contain, say, 9% ethanol (maximum limit is 10%)
and 99% of gas sold is regular (or a mix containing regular) so they
do not HAVE to put it in the premium gas.

Also, the ethanol is not added at the refinery (at least in many
cases) it is added to the tanker at the depot - so the regular gas at
the depot has to be 97 octane without ethanol.

I don't "buy" the ethanol as octane booster arguement - at least here
in Ontario. Does it increase Octane? Sure. Is octane the reason it is
added? No. It is added because it is mandated. It is mandated because
it is an oxygenator. The octane boost is just a bonus. (which helps
mitigate thedilution of the fuel energy caused by the dilution of the
fuel with low energy ethanol in the eye of those who don't understand
octane requirements and energy content and the fact they are not
connected in any way)

(* octane rating is a confusing thing, because there are
several common ways of testing it, which give different
numbers. In North America the AKI (or R+M/2) method is
used, which is what the numbers above are based on).

John

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 15:08:05 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
m:

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
other than octane boosters it's generally not so.

Might be true in the USA, but the total additive package in tier 3
premium gas is significantly different than in the same brand's
regular gasoline

I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
and I haven't seen that anywhere.

John
Shell Canada has gone on record saying there WILL BE no ethanol in
their premium gasoline.

If you look at PurGas.org? the vast majority of stations selling
ethanol free gasoline sell only premium ethanol free gasoline. The
only major resellers of ethanol free regular are marinas.

Mogas for aircraft use is also ethsanol free premium. No Mogas STC
allows ethanol fuel.

Michael wrote:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around
for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

I use only ethanol free gas for all of my small engines and my farm tractor.
Around here the only ethanol free gas you can get is Premium. I've never
noticed any difference in how hot my engines run on it, and I have two Stihl
chainsaws that I use the stuff in. The place where I get my saws serviced
strongly recommends only using ethanol free fuel in them, which by
definition, means premium gas. I've not heard of any ramifications from
using the stuff.

--

-Mike-

John McCoy wrote:


I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
and I haven't seen that anywhere.


It very common where I live John. Well advertised on the pumps as well.

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:00:58 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 12/27/2015 8:41 PM, wrote:

It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.
A shot of ether and the sucker starts like a champ.

Doesn't need ether - it USUALLY starts on the first or second pull.
But if it decides to balk instead, it snaps back with fury!!!!. I
won't start it on a ladder or in a tree. Too dangerous if it "gets
angry"

Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.
Doesn';t seem to.

I've had the same chain saw since around 1978. The first tree I cut up
it blew up. My neighbor, a farmer the first 20 years of life, owned a
two man auto repair shop the next 50 years, and a lawnmower repair shop
the next 25 years, told me my mistake was using the 50-1 chainsaw oil
mixture recommend by Sears. He said use regular 20w non-detergent in
something like 9-1 or 20-1, can't recall, it's written on my gas can in
the shed. He said it might smoke a bit, and be hard to start but it
will never freeze up. Arguing with a 95 year old dude that still worked
on small engines 9-9 6 days a week seemed silly, so I gave it a shot.

It was always hard to start, so didn't notice a difference, but learned
to use ether to get er running (even though I was often told ether would
hurt the engine)

I rebuilt the engine, took his advice, and now, almost 40 years later,
the saw still runs great. I haven't used it much lately, getting old,
but last I used it it still ran, and smoked like a champ...
I tend to use 40:1 instead of 50:1 so it does smoke - but it is close
to 50 years old and has never been apart. And other than the extreme
high compression kickback, it is NOT hard to start. I run ethanol free
premium, and even after sitting for 2 years with a full (sealed) tank,
it started on the second pull.

Also, as far as premium gas in a chainsaw, my guess is once you dump oil
in the gas, it doesn't matter much.
If 93 octane drops to 87, think where 87 goes!!!! The more oil, the
lower the octane - one advantage of the lighter mixes.

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:20:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Michael wrote:

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around
for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

I use only ethanol free gas for all of my small engines and my farm tractor.
Around here the only ethanol free gas you can get is Premium. I've never
noticed any difference in how hot my engines run on it, and I have two Stihl
chainsaws that I use the stuff in. The place where I get my saws serviced
strongly recommends only using ethanol free fuel in them, which by
definition, means premium gas. I've not heard of any ramifications from
using the stuff.
Using higher octane than required won't hurt anything except your
wallet.

On 12/28/2015 1:33 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:00:58 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 12/27/2015 8:41 PM, wrote:

It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.
A shot of ether and the sucker starts like a champ.

Doesn't need ether - it USUALLY starts on the first or second pull.
But if it decides to balk instead, it snaps back with fury!!!!. I
won't start it on a ladder or in a tree. Too dangerous if it "gets
angry"

Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.
Doesn';t seem to.

I've had the same chain saw since around 1978. The first tree I cut up
it blew up. My neighbor, a farmer the first 20 years of life, owned a
two man auto repair shop the next 50 years, and a lawnmower repair shop
the next 25 years, told me my mistake was using the 50-1 chainsaw oil
mixture recommend by Sears. He said use regular 20w non-detergent in
something like 9-1 or 20-1, can't recall, it's written on my gas can in
the shed. He said it might smoke a bit, and be hard to start but it
will never freeze up. Arguing with a 95 year old dude that still worked
on small engines 9-9 6 days a week seemed silly, so I gave it a shot.

It was always hard to start, so didn't notice a difference, but learned
to use ether to get er running (even though I was often told ether would
hurt the engine)

I rebuilt the engine, took his advice, and now, almost 40 years later,
the saw still runs great. I haven't used it much lately, getting old,
but last I used it it still ran, and smoked like a champ...
I tend to use 40:1 instead of 50:1 so it does smoke - but it is close
to 50 years old and has never been apart. And other than the extreme
high compression kickback, it is NOT hard to start. I run ethanol free
premium, and even after sitting for 2 years with a full (sealed) tank,
it started on the second pull.

Also, as far as premium gas in a chainsaw, my guess is once you dump oil
in the gas, it doesn't matter much.
If 93 octane drops to 87, think where 87 goes!!!! The more oil, the
lower the octane - one advantage of the lighter mixes.



I remember when "Leaded Regular" was 91 octane.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:50:42 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"Michael" wrote in message
...

I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my
chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful,
but
I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts?
Thanks.

The manual with my saw recommends a minimum of 89 octane... I use ethanol
free premium gas along with synthetic 2 cycle oil (STIHL HP Ultra) that
has
fuel stabilizers. In the past year or so one of the chain convenience
stores
started carrying ethanol free premium gas and they are adding store
locations steadily over time--I've got one 7/10ths of a mile from my house
now. I started using this mix in all my Stihl 2 stroke equipment (string
trimmer, hedge clipper, chainsaw), and the gas in my mower, and everything
runs better.

I would expect your saw to run cooler, and better, with the premium fuel
as
compared to say 87 octane based on my saw's manual:

"Use mid-grade unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 89 and no
more than 10% ethanol content."
"Fuel with a lower octane rating may increase engine temperatures. This,
in
turn, increases the risk of piston seizure and damage to the engine."

John
I run nothing but ethanol free premium gas in ALL of my small engine
equipment. For the small amount of fuel I put through them in a year,
the difference in cost is a non-issue, particularly considering the
possible costs of the alternatives. A screwed up carb or a scuffed
piston or siezed engine is too costly to consider trying to save the
7 cents a liter or whatever.

I do the same. I have a 4 cycle mini-rototiller with a Honda mini engine. It
has been a problem from new, had it serviced and not much better. It was
hard to start and would stall after running a few minutes, and then only run
a minute or so after starting hot. This was with regular 87 gas. I also have
a Honda weed wacker with a mini 4 stroke engine that runs fine with regular
87 fuel.

Switched all my small engines to Shell premium, they run great and even the
difficult mini-rototiller Honda now runs properly with only a change of fuel
to premium.

The added cost of premium is insignificant compared to frequent servicing
required when they don't run properly. By the way, I have a Honda
self-propelled walk behind mower that is now over 25 years old and has never
needed service other than oil changes. It starts on the first pull.