We are preparing to restore and refinish a couple of antique items--a dining table and a side-by-side that belonged to my grandparents. Both, especially the side-by-side, are in need of significant repair and being 'tightened up'. They are well over 100 years old; but preservation of antique finish and patina is not a concern. My parents refinished them in the 1960's with a standard strip, sand, stain-and varnish process. The key word above is "RESTORE."

The problem: We want the final color to be as close as possible to a set of chairs we ordered a few years ago. Also, I need to replace two of the table leafs so color matching is a real concern. The chairs were stained to a MinWax specification (Red Oak #215), but they ended up lighter than expected. That is the stain we plan to use during restoration.

The table is red, but darker. I am sure the stripping and sanding process will lighten the wood but the deep-bedded stain pigment is probably going to be a problem. I really don't want to go to the surface planer because the existing top is not that thick.

I think I am pretty well equipped and experienced to handle the woodworking and finishing problems. HOWEVER, does anyone have suggestions on getting the deep pigment out of the oak, or at least lightening it? Oh - By the way the table legs are rope-patterned :0)

Thank You
RonB

On 1/1/2015 10:50 AM, RonB wrote:
We are preparing to restore and refinish a couple of antique items--a dining table and a side-by-side that belonged to my grandparents. Both, especially the side-by-side, are in need of significant repair and being 'tightened up'. They are well over 100 years old; but preservation of antique finish and patina is not a concern. My parents refinished them in the 1960's with a standard strip, sand, stain-and varnish process. The key word above is "RESTORE."

The problem: We want the final color to be as close as possible to a set of chairs we ordered a few years ago. Also, I need to replace two of the table leafs so color matching is a real concern. The chairs were stained to a MinWax specification (Red Oak #215), but they ended up lighter than expected. That is the stain we plan to use during restoration.

The table is red, but darker. I am sure the stripping and sanding process will lighten the wood but the deep-bedded stain pigment is probably going to be a problem. I really don't want to go to the surface planer because the existing top is not that thick.

I think I am pretty well equipped and experienced to handle the woodworking and finishing problems. HOWEVER, does anyone have suggestions on getting the deep pigment out of the oak, or at least lightening it? Oh - By the way the table legs are rope-patterned :0)

Thank You
RonB


You may or may not want to worry with the dark pigment in the grain. It
is concentrated there and almost any other color stain will collect and
concentrate there too. I believer that the dominating color is going
that which is on top of the wood rather than that which is in the grain.
IMHO the new stain color will mostly be visible in the non grain areas
and will probably not be thrown off by that which is in the grain. Did
that make any sense at all. ;~)

You could try this out with different color stains on a scrap and see if
putting on one color, letting dry, and sand off a section and then
restaining a different color in that section to determine if that would
be tolerable or not.

"RonB" wrote in message

We are preparing to restore and refinish a couple of antique items--a
dining table and a side-by-side that belonged to my grandparents. Both,
especially the side-by-side, are in need of significant repair and being
'tightened up'. They are well over 100 years old; but preservation of
antique finish and patina is not a concern. My parents refinished them
in the 1960's with a standard strip, sand, stain-and varnish process.
The key word above is "RESTORE."

The problem: We want the final color to be as close as possible to a
set
of chairs we ordered a few years ago. Also, I need to replace two of the
table leafs so color matching is a real concern. The chairs were stained
to a MinWax specification (Red Oak #215), but they ended up lighter than
expected. That is the stain we plan to use during restoration.

The table is red, but darker. I am sure the stripping and sanding
process will lighten the wood but the deep-bedded stain pigment is
probably going to be a problem. I really don't want to go to the
surface
planer because the existing top is not that thick.

I think I am pretty well equipped and experienced to handle the
woodworking and finishing problems. HOWEVER, does anyone have
suggestions on getting the deep pigment out of the oak, or at least
lightening it? Oh - By the way the table legs are rope-patterned :0)


Paint remover and a brush.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"RonB" wrote:

We are preparing to restore and refinish a couple of antique items--a
dining table and a side-by-side that belonged to my grandparents.
snip
--------------------------------------------------
Years ago there were commercial strippers who would hang your piece
in a pit containing heated stripper vapor.

The piece stayed dry and came out clean ready for refinishing.

My first shot would be a search to see if one is available.

After that, Dadio covered it.

Hey Robert, where are you?

Lew

On 1/1/2015 11:50 AM, RonB wrote:
We are preparing to restore and refinish a couple of antique items--a dining table and a side-by-side that belonged to my grandparents. Both, especially the side-by-side, are in need of significant repair and being 'tightened up'. They are well over 100 years old; but preservation of antique finish and patina is not a concern. My parents refinished them in the 1960's with a standard strip, sand, stain-and varnish process. The key word above is "RESTORE."

The problem: We want the final color to be as close as possible to a set of chairs we ordered a few years ago. Also, I need to replace two of the table leafs so color matching is a real concern. The chairs were stained to a MinWax specification (Red Oak #215), but they ended up lighter than expected. That is the stain we plan to use during restoration.

The table is red, but darker. I am sure the stripping and sanding process will lighten the wood but the deep-bedded stain pigment is probably going to be a problem. I really don't want to go to the surface planer because the existing top is not that thick.

I think I am pretty well equipped and experienced to handle the woodworking and finishing problems. HOWEVER, does anyone have suggestions on getting the deep pigment out of the oak, or at least lightening it? Oh - By the way the table legs are rope-patterned :0)

Thank You
RonB


so any stain or pigment left in will have to be removed to get an even
color. You don't mention the wood.

Since it's an open pored wood it's more difficult. You have to sand it
deep enough, you might try oxalic acid to bleach and clean it out.

Stripping would be my first attempt and hoping that you can losen up the
stuff in the pores. It it a veneer or solid wood? I'm guessing solid.

Which means you can go after it more aggressively. Apply stripper, clean
it up using a toothbrush to get the pores clean
apply stripper,
clean it up using a stiff china hair toothbrush brush (see what you can
find from a womans beauty parlor, they use china hair brushes to apply
hair dyes to get the pores clean it's finer than the nylon brush and may
help dig out the pigment better.

apply stripper
clean it up.
neutralize the stripper.
apply oxalic acid
clean it up
neautraulize with boraxo soap.



--
Jeff

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:07:42 PM UTC-6, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/1/2015 11:50 AM, RonB wrote:
We are preparing to restore and refinish a couple of antique items--a dining table and a side-by-side that belonged to my grandparents. Both, especially the side-by-side, are in need of significant repair and being 'tightened up'. They are well over 100 years old; but preservation of antique finish and patina is not a concern. My parents refinished them in the 1960's with a standard strip, sand, stain-and varnish process. The key word above is "RESTORE."

The problem: We want the final color to be as close as possible to a set of chairs we ordered a few years ago. Also, I need to replace two of the table leafs so color matching is a real concern. The chairs were stained to a MinWax specification (Red Oak #215), but they ended up lighter than expected. That is the stain we plan to use during restoration.

The table is red, but darker. I am sure the stripping and sanding process will lighten the wood but the deep-bedded stain pigment is probably going to be a problem. I really don't want to go to the surface planer because the existing top is not that thick.

I think I am pretty well equipped and experienced to handle the woodworking and finishing problems. HOWEVER, does anyone have suggestions on getting the deep pigment out of the oak, or at least lightening it? Oh - By the way the table legs are rope-patterned :0)

Thank You
RonB


so any stain or pigment left in will have to be removed to get an even
color. You don't mention the wood.

Since it's an open pored wood it's more difficult. You have to sand it
deep enough, you might try oxalic acid to bleach and clean it out.

Stripping would be my first attempt and hoping that you can losen up the
stuff in the pores. It it a veneer or solid wood? I'm guessing solid.

Which means you can go after it more aggressively. Apply stripper, clean
it up using a toothbrush to get the pores clean
apply stripper,
clean it up using a stiff china hair toothbrush brush (see what you can
find from a womans beauty parlor, they use china hair brushes to apply
hair dyes to get the pores clean it's finer than the nylon brush and may
help dig out the pigment better.

apply stripper
clean it up.
neutralize the stripper.
apply oxalic acid
clean it up
neautraulize with boraxo soap.



--
Jeff


Jeff - Good stuff.

The table is solid red oak.

I have stripped a lot of old furniture and understand the elbow-grease factor. That is why I was concerned about the deep bedded pigment. I will also be using a real stripper as opposed to "green." I was planning on using a toothbrush on the legs, but based on comments here, I suspect that is what I might end up using one on the smooth surfaces too. Steel wool can be as difficult to get out of open grain woods as pigment residue.

Oxalic acid? I was thinking bleach but had not come across that yet. Based on your comment and some more Google that is probably the way to go. You mentioned neutralizing the stripper. I have washed thoroughly with spirits in the past, is there a better way of doing that?

Thanks
RonB

On 01/02/2015 10:24 AM, RonB wrote:
....

The table is solid red oak.

I have stripped a lot of old furniture and understand the
elbow-grease factor. That is why I was concerned about the deep
bedded pigment. I will also be using a real stripper as opposed to
"green." I was planning on using a toothbrush on the legs, but based
on comments here, I suspect that is what I might end up using one on
the smooth surfaces too. Steel wool can be as difficult to get out of
open grain woods as pigment residue.

Oxalic acid? I was thinking bleach but had not come across that yet.
Based on your comment and some more Google that is probably the way to
go. You mentioned neutralizing the stripper. I have washed thoroughly
with spirits in the past, is there a better way of doing that?

I avoid steel wool like the plague excepting for very rarely buffing
out. On raw wood, particularly as you note, porous ones it is indeed
more trouble than possible to gain. Also, particularly w/ oak and the
tannic acid, leave any overnight in a grain and some dampness and you've
got the black stain to add to the joy...

For working stuff out of the pores since you've got solid wood to
refinish, brass or s-steel bristle brushes are the cat's meow...I use
welders' brushes in various forms/sizes; they're available in toothbrush
format that can be handy...

As for the crevices in the legs and the like, dental picks, gouges,
"anything that works"...be creative.

Oxalic acid will remove color from the base wood as well; test
_carefully_ in inconspicuous place(s) to ensure you don't take it too
far, particularly since you're attempting to match some other pieces.
If it were the table on its own, wouldn't matter so much; it'd just come
out as it did and undoubtedly be satisfactory. If you take all the
natural reddish hues out and try _then_ to match other; may be more
difficult.

As for the "neutralizing" recipe, simple--read (and follow) the
instructions for the particular product you use...

--

"dpb" wrote:

I avoid steel wool like the plague excepting for very rarely buffing
out. On raw wood, particularly as you note, porous ones it is
indeed more trouble than possible to gain.
---------------------------------------------
The marine industry also avoids steel wool, using bronze wool instead.

It's available at any good marine chandlery such as Jamestown
Distributors.

Lew

On 1/2/2015 11:24 AM, RonB wrote:
On Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:07:42 PM UTC-6, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/1/2015 11:50 AM, RonB wrote:
We are preparing to restore and refinish a couple of antique items--a dining table and a side-by-side that belonged to my grandparents. Both, especially the side-by-side, are in need of significant repair and being 'tightened up'. They are well over 100 years old; but preservation of antique finish and patina is not a concern. My parents refinished them in the 1960's with a standard strip, sand, stain-and varnish process. The key word above is "RESTORE."

The problem: We want the final color to be as close as possible to a set of chairs we ordered a few years ago. Also, I need to replace two of the table leafs so color matching is a real concern. The chairs were stained to a MinWax specification (Red Oak #215), but they ended up lighter than expected. That is the stain we plan to use during restoration.

The table is red, but darker. I am sure the stripping and sanding process will lighten the wood but the deep-bedded stain pigment is probably going to be a problem. I really don't want to go to the surface planer because the existing top is not that thick.

I think I am pretty well equipped and experienced to handle the woodworking and finishing problems. HOWEVER, does anyone have suggestions on getting the deep pigment out of the oak, or at least lightening it? Oh - By the way the table legs are rope-patterned :0)

Thank You
RonB


so any stain or pigment left in will have to be removed to get an even
color. You don't mention the wood.

Since it's an open pored wood it's more difficult. You have to sand it
deep enough, you might try oxalic acid to bleach and clean it out.

Stripping would be my first attempt and hoping that you can losen up the
stuff in the pores. It it a veneer or solid wood? I'm guessing solid.

Which means you can go after it more aggressively. Apply stripper, clean
it up using a toothbrush to get the pores clean
apply stripper,
clean it up using a stiff china hair toothbrush brush (see what you can
find from a womans beauty parlor, they use china hair brushes to apply
hair dyes to get the pores clean it's finer than the nylon brush and may
help dig out the pigment better.

apply stripper
clean it up.
neutralize the stripper.
apply oxalic acid
clean it up
neautraulize with boraxo soap.



--
Jeff


Jeff - Good stuff.

The table is solid red oak.

I have stripped a lot of old furniture and understand the elbow-grease factor. That is why I was concerned about the deep bedded pigment. I will also be using a real stripper as opposed to "green." I was planning on using a toothbrush on the legs, but based on comments here, I suspect that is what I might end up using one on the smooth surfaces too. Steel wool can be as difficult to get out of open grain woods as pigment residue.

Oxalic acid? I was thinking bleach but had not come across that yet. Based on your comment and some more Google that is probably the way to go. You mentioned neutralizing the stripper. I have washed thoroughly with spirits in the past, is there a better way of doing that?

Thanks
RonB

Only what is called for by the stripper. Sometimes water, sometimes
mineral spirits, some times something else. But do neuraulize, you want
it to be gone. Also use distilled water if you need to use water for the
final rinse .. IF YOU NEED TO. it will clean off the metals from normal
water. probably overkill, just mentioning it. I don't use water based
stuff. But just thought I would mention it.

--
Jeff

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 10:50:57 AM UTC-6, RonB wrote:
We are preparing to restore and refinish a couple of antique items--a dining table and a side-by-side that belonged to my grandparents. Both, especially the side-by-side, are in need of significant repair and being 'tightened up'. They are well over 100 years old; but preservation of antique finish and patina is not a concern. My parents refinished them in the 1960's with a standard strip, sand, stain-and varnish process. The key word above is "RESTORE."

The key word is not "restore". In your case it is "refinish". If you strip, sand, remove the original finish completely, remove the patina completely, and then consider you re doing this to a piece that has already been "refinished" once, there isn't anything left to restore. Lastly, with consideration that almost without doubt that a vintage oak piece wasn't stained and certainly wasn't "varnished", there isn't anything left to restore.

So you are starting with a clean slate.

The problem: We want the final color to be as close as possible to a set of chairs we ordered a few years ago. Also, I need to replace two of the table leafs so color matching is a real concern. The chairs were stained to a MinWax specification (Red Oak #215), but they ended up lighter than expected. That is the stain we plan to use during restoration.

Again, this is not a restoration. Sounds to me you are trying to make your table and assorted chairs and table parts match a Minwax color you have committed to using sometime in the past. Consider too, that if your old stain/finish projects are a few years old, you won't duplicate the color (age ambering)using the same color of stain and your top coat of choice.

If I had a client bring your assortment of pieces to me to refinish, I would tell them the best shot would be to refinish all pieces together at the same time. Strip the wood to bare and clean it well. It will be light enough. You can clean the tubules out by brushing off the stripper with a medium scrub brush loaded with plenty of saw dust as an abrasive medium. Not all of the old color and finish will come off, but you can reach a certain consistency of color by doing all pieces the same way.

Never have I seen great, consistent success using any acids or bleaches to lighten color. The results are inconsistent, the tiniest remnant left behind can foul your finishes, and water on old wood and veneers (as carriers or neutralizers for the acids)is a really bad idea.

You can clean the rope patterns on the chairs more easily (this is almost all end grain) with a brass brush and stripper.

If you are indeed well equipped and experienced, I will tell you how I would do it and you can tailor (or ignore!) as needed. I would strip all parts and clean as much as possible. Allow to completely dry overnight from last wash (I use lacquer thinner).

Using a 1mm tip and a cup gun (or HVLP), I would shoot a custom color of dye I liked (favorite dye: Behlen's SolaLux) applied evenly over all the pieces. Previous experimentation would dictate how many times I would spray dye. When correct amount of coats are matched, then apply lacquer or conversion lacquer (using the correct tip) directly over the dried dye.

By laying the dye ON TOP of the wood, you will have color consistency throughout all pieces. Rubbing stain on, no matter what kind or how you do it won't get it done.

Good luck!

Robert

Actually it is a restoration - especially the side-by-side. This is a set of furniture that was owned by my great grandparents and goes back to the 1880's or so. On the table I am also replacing some of the glue-blocks and at least one of the leaves that is badly damaged.

The side-by-side is another story. The drop-down desk drawer is split right through some fairly intricate carving and will require some careful reassembly and repair. The interior of the desk area (cubbies, drawer,etc.) is a wreck. I suspect I will be rebuilding some of it with newly fabricated parts. The cabinet has a general "sag" in the center that will have to be dealt with when I get it on the bench. My folks replaced the original hardware with more "stylish" items but I have located period hardware from old photos. And it goes on...... I suspect I will have the table in the shop for a month or more. The cabinet will be out there for a lot longer.

I'm 68 years old and I remember eating holiday meals on the table when I was sitting on pillows to reach my turkey.

RonB