I've noticed a trend at Woodcraft of diminishing selection as their
Festool stock rises.
I've been looking for a Bora MiterMaster...
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153...uplicator.aspx

They stopped carrying them, around the time Festool came out with this...
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/494...er-device.aspx

I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be
nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the price of
the Festool.

I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of other
branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the Woodcraft
shelves a short time after getting in bed with Festool.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:10:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be
nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the price of
the Festool.

I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of other
branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the Woodcraft
shelves a short time after getting in bed with Festool.

No coincidence at all. While there is no doubt as to the great quality of Festool products, they have turned out to be a winner for Woodcraft as well.. Their sky high prices for their tools are also reflective of the sky high margins that WC enjoys when selling those products.

Years ago when they got in bed with them, I had a pretty good friend that managed our local store. He wasn't thrilled about the arrangement that Festool wanted, which was a minimum amount of product in the store, a minimum amount of shelf space, and a non negotiable price for their products. In other words, Festool dictated all the terms of the relationship.

The attraction for the WC franchise owners were that they all got a better price on Festool products than an average store or small chain (better margins), and with price protection they never had to worry about anyone's sales, or the biggest threat to the brick and mortar retailer, internet pricing..

I think they were smart to make that move for themselves, and in reality, it never hurt anyone like me. I have always been a fiend for utility value of a tool, probably reflective of over thirty years of self employment. But sometime back it seems that WC realized that they were no longer catering to professionals. This was pointed out to me when my buddy pointed out to me I NEVER bought tools or consumables from him. I only went to the store to purchase incidentals like pattern bits for my router, a few odds tool bits, etc.

No professionals I work with, NONE, shop at WC. Like me, they consider it an upscale hobby store that caters with folks with a lot of free time. And I have only seen Festool tools on the job two times in the last 20 or so years; their Rotex sander used for its dust collecting ability, and their 12V drill that was favored by a cabinet installer I knew. The only two guys I know that use Festool professionally at this point are Karl and Leon, and they get their money's worth.

I think that WC's current selection of tools is reflective of the client they wish to serve, the well heeled hobbyist that just enjoys owning a fine tool.

Robert

On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:40:33 AM UTC-6, wrote:
And I have only seen Festool tools on the job two times in the last 20 or so years;


I visited a friend at Thanksgiving having kitchen cabinets installed at his house. And more of his kitchen worked over such as the floor and walls. The people doing the work left a Festool guide rail at the jobsite. The 1400 mm rail. So I am convinced professional carpenters do use Festool tools..

" writes:
On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:40:33 AM UTC-6, wrote:
And I have only seen Festool tools on the job two times in the last 20 =
or so years;


I visited a friend at Thanksgiving having kitchen cabinets installed at his=
house. And more of his kitchen worked over such as the floor and walls. =
The people doing the work left a Festool guide rail at the jobsite. The 14=
00 mm rail. So I am convinced professional carpenters do use Festool tools=
.

FYI - one swallow doesn't make a summer. You should only be convinced that
"one carpenter" uses festool tools; the adjective "professional" has no
evidence.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 21:56:51 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

" writes:
On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:40:33 AM UTC-6, wrote:
And I have only seen Festool tools on the job two times in the last 20 =
or so years;


I visited a friend at Thanksgiving having kitchen cabinets installed at his=
house. And more of his kitchen worked over such as the floor and walls. =
The people doing the work left a Festool guide rail at the jobsite. The 14=
00 mm rail. So I am convinced professional carpenters do use Festool tools=
.

FYI - one swallow doesn't make a summer. You should only be convinced that
"one carpenter" uses festool tools; the adjective "professional" has no
evidence.

I would make the leap that the person installing the cabinets for the
friend was doing the work for money, therefore a "professional".

On 12/22/14 3:10 PM, wrote:
On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:40:33 AM UTC-6,
wrote:
And I have only seen Festool tools on the job two times in the
last 20 or so years;


I visited a friend at Thanksgiving having kitchen cabinets installed
at his house. And more of his kitchen worked over such as the floor
and walls. The people doing the work left a Festool guide rail at
the jobsite. The 1400 mm rail. So I am convinced professional
carpenters do use Festool tools.


I think you need to re-read his post.
He didn't say professional didn't use Festool. He said he didn't know
of any that shop at Woodcraft. He then went on to say that two
professionals (he knows and respects, BTW) both use Festool.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

" wrote:
On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:10:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be
nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the price of
the Festool.

I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of other
branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the Woodcraft
shelves a short time after getting in bed with Festool.

No coincidence at all. While there is no doubt as to the great quality
of Festool products, they have turned out to be a winner for Woodcraft as
well. Their sky high prices for their tools are also reflective of the
sky high margins that WC enjoys when selling those products.

Years ago when they got in bed with them, I had a pretty good friend that
managed our local store. He wasn't thrilled about the arrangement that
Festool wanted, which was a minimum amount of product in the store, a
minimum amount of shelf space, and a non negotiable price for their
products. In other words, Festool dictated all the terms of the relationship.

The attraction for the WC franchise owners were that they all got a
better price on Festool products than an average store or small chain
(better margins), and with price protection they never had to worry about
anyone's sales, or the biggest threat to the brick and mortar retailer, internet pricing.

I think they were smart to make that move for themselves, and in reality,
it never hurt anyone like me. I have always been a fiend for utility
value of a tool, probably reflective of over thirty years of self
employment. But sometime back it seems that WC realized that they were
no longer catering to professionals. This was pointed out to me when my
buddy pointed out to me I NEVER bought tools or consumables from him. I
only went to the store to purchase incidentals like pattern bits for my
router, a few odds tool bits, etc.

No professionals I work with, NONE, shop at WC. Like me, they consider
it an upscale hobby store that caters with folks with a lot of free time.
And I have only seen Festool tools on the job two times in the last 20
or so years; their Rotex sander used for its dust collecting ability, and
their 12V drill that was favored by a cabinet installer I knew. The only
two guys I know that use Festool professionally at this point are Karl
and Leon, and they get their money's worth.

I think that WC's current selection of tools is reflective of the client
they wish to serve, the well heeled hobbyist that just enjoys owning a fine tool.

Robert

I believe you have hit the nail on the head. I do however think you can
still buy the common and less expensive brands of power tools through WC
but in many cases you have to order them. Probably from the WC central
ware house. I think it would be a hard sell on Festool if there were
several alternatives readily available on the shelves. I'll add that had
I not first bought the Domino and the Festool dust extractor I may to this
day might not own any Festool tools. That might be the case for Karl too.
But once I experienced the quality and time saving features, adding
sanders, a drill, a saw, a work bench and assorted clamps and tracks was
not quite so difficult to swallow.
I absolutely understand why contractors like yourself don't use Festool.
You provide, share, and often loose sight of your tools on a job site.
Since Karl and I are basically the only ones that touch our Festools we
don't so much fear some one breaking the tool or that tool walking away.

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 8:11:08 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I believe you have hit the nail on the head. I do however think you can
still buy the common and less expensive brands of power tools through WC
but in many cases you have to order them. Probably from the WC central
ware house.

Tough to be CPO and Amazon when it comes to online sales, though. And when CPO has one of their seasonal sales, they are almost impossible to beat.


But once I experienced the quality and time saving features, adding
sanders, a drill, a saw, a work bench and assorted clamps and tracks was
not quite so difficult to swallow.

There is no doubt about the quality of the Festool products. And let's face it, if they didn't deliver in spades, they couldn't sell their products at those prices. The market wouldn't bear it.


I absolutely understand why contractors like yourself don't use Festool.
You provide, share, and often loose sight of your tools on a job site.
Since Karl and I are basically the only ones that touch our Festools we
don't so much fear some one breaking the tool or that tool walking away.

And that is a huge consideration. I used to buy only top line tools, but between tools being abused, neglected, left out to be stolen, stolen by employees, carelessly misused and broken, left on job sites, stolen from my truck or company trucks by break ins, pawned by employees, I quit. I buy enough tool to get the job done these days as I know I might have said tool 2 to 3 years, or 2 to 3 days.

Things are different on the job site as well. When I started, you saved your money and bought tools for your own use. You bought a good saw, a good drill, a sander, router and all the other tools you needed on the road to being a professional woodworker. You invested your own money into yourself, and by doing so showed your commitment to your craft. Your level of commitment and self investment determined not only how seriously you were taken on the job, but how much money you made.

No longer so. Most employees won't buy any tools more than $100. If they do, they leave them at home so they don't suffer the fate described above, and they only see the light of day on a moon light job they contract. Their tools are valuable, mine are not.

When I had employees, I bought saws, drills, nailers, compressors, paint machines, saw blades, extension cords, ladders, and on an on. Now I use almost all sub contractors, and although I will lend a tool to some of them, they are required to have all the tools needed to complete the job. If I had $700 tied up in a drill, I doubt I would leave it on the job for anyone of them to use, though.

I remember when I changed my business model and got rid of almost all employees.
The tax prep folks I used called me after the first year and quizzed me about my "consumable" tools and equipment and why they had dropped by about 90%. I remember telling them, "it's easy. I just quit buying San Antonio's work force new tools".

Robert

If both prices were not true ( Bora: 59.90‚¬ y Festool: 160‚¬) they would seem
addressed to naive. people.

Look at (I'm sorry, but it is in French)




http://www.smartool.fr/fr/produits-b...antes-smartool




this angle measurer has the same functionality and it costs just 9.90‚¬.
You could even do it yourself, it's not necessary to feed the blood
suckers!!!



Good luck,




GD



"-MIKE-" a écrit dans le message de
...
I've noticed a trend at Woodcraft of diminishing selection as their
Festool stock rises.
I've been looking for a Bora MiterMaster...
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153...uplicator.aspx

They stopped carrying them, around the time Festool came out with this...
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/494...er-device.aspx

I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be
nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the price of
the Festool.

I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of other
branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the Woodcraft
shelves a short time after getting in bed with Festool.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/17/15 4:14 AM, G.Dubois wrote:


"-MIKE-" a écrit dans le message de
...
I've noticed a trend at Woodcraft of diminishing selection as their
Festool stock rises.
I've been looking for a Bora MiterMaster...

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153...uplicator.aspx



They stopped carrying them, around the time Festool came out with
this...

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/494...er-device.aspx



I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be
nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the price of
the Festool.

I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of other
branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the Woodcraft
shelves a short time after getting in bed with Festool.


If both prices were not true ( Bora: 59.90‚¬ y Festool: 160‚¬) they would
seem addressed to naive. people.

Look at (I'm sorry, but it is in French)


http://www.smartool.fr/fr/produits-b...antes-smartool


this angle measurer has the same functionality and it costs just 9.90‚¬.
You could even do it yourself, it's not necessary to feed the blood
suckers!!!

Good luck,

GD


The tool you linked to isn't the same thing.
The two tools I showed automatically bisect the angle giving you an
adjustment point for the miter saw without having to measure it or
divide the full angle in half.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" a écrit dans le message de
...
On 1/17/15 4:14 AM, G.Dubois wrote:


If both prices were not true ( Bora: 59.90‚¬ y Festool: 160‚¬) they would
seem addressed to naive. people.

Look at (I'm sorry, but it is in French)


http://www.smartool.fr/fr/produits-b...antes-smartool


this angle measurer has the same functionality and it costs just 9.90‚¬.
You could even do it yourself, it's not necessary to feed the blood
suckers!!!

Good luck,

GD


The tool you linked to isn't the same thing.
The two tools I showed automatically bisect the angle giving you an
adjustment point for the miter saw without having to measure it or
divide the full angle in half.


--

-MIKE-



No, the sides of the tool being graduated, it can always keep the shape of a
kipe (or deltoid )

and its diagonals are always bisectors of angles issued of the intersection
o equal sides.

It is possible to materialize diagonals with a simple rule or even with the
back of saws, the

amount of the difference with your tool being 50$ or 150$ it is worth.



GD

On 1/20/15 5:25 AM, G.Dubois wrote:

"-MIKE-" a écrit dans le message de
...
On 1/17/15 4:14 AM, G.Dubois wrote:


If both prices were not true ( Bora: 59.90‚¬ y Festool: 160‚¬) they would
seem addressed to naive. people.

Look at (I'm sorry, but it is in French)


http://www.smartool.fr/fr/produits-b...antes-smartool



this angle measurer has the same functionality and it costs just 9.90‚¬.
You could even do it yourself, it's not necessary to feed the blood
suckers!!!

Good luck,

GD


The tool you linked to isn't the same thing.
The two tools I showed automatically bisect the angle giving you an
adjustment point for the miter saw without having to measure it or
divide the full angle in half.


--

-MIKE-



No, the sides of the tool being graduated, it can always keep the shape
of a kipe (or deltoid )

and its diagonals are always bisectors of angles issued of the
intersection o equal sides.

It is possible to materialize diagonals with a simple rule or even with
the back of saws, the

amount of the difference with your tool being 50$ or 150$ it is worth.



GD


Have a good day.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Thank you, and you too

GD



The tool you linked to isn't the same thing.
The two tools I showed automatically bisect the angle giving you an
adjustment point for the miter saw without having to measure it or
divide the full angle in half.


--

-MIKE-



No, the sides of the tool being graduated, it can always keep the shape
of a kipe (or deltoid )

and its diagonals are always bisectors of angles issued of the
intersection of equal sides.

It is possible to materialize diagonals with a simple rule or even with
the back of saws, the

amount of the difference with your tool being 50$ or 150$ it is worth.



GD


Have a good day.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:47:48 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 1/17/15 4:14 AM, G.Dubois wrote:

"-MIKE-" a écrit dans le message de
...
I've noticed a trend at Woodcraft of diminishing selection as their
Festool stock rises.
I've been looking for a Bora MiterMaster...

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153...uplicator.aspx


They stopped carrying them, around the time Festool came out with
this...
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/494...er-device.aspx


I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be
nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the price of
the Festool.

I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of other
branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the Woodcraft
shelves a short time after getting in bed with Festool.

If both prices were not true ( Bora: 59.90€ y Festool: 160€) they would
seem addressed to naive. people.

Look at (I'm sorry, but it is in French)


http://www.smartool.fr/fr/produits-b...antes-smartool


this angle measurer has the same functionality and it costs just 9.90€.
You could even do it yourself, it's not necessary to feed the blood
suckers!!!

Good luck,

GD

The tool you linked to isn't the same thing.
The two tools I showed automatically bisect the angle giving you an
adjustment point for the miter saw without having to measure it or
divide the full angle in half.
Doesn't this tool at 5.97 do the same thing? plus side is no
heart attack if lost somewhere.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Johnson-P...0000/204513502

If you add an "extender" to it, I would more confidence with it. I
don't trust my ability to extend a 1" line to 24", accurately (try it
and see). Any error you make will be proportional to (i.e. multiplied
by) the number of inches you wish to extend the 1" line. Just ask Lew.
He's good with this stuff!

Bill

On 2/1/15 1:34 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:47:48 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 1/17/15 4:14 AM, G.Dubois wrote:


"-MIKE-" a écrit dans le message de
...
I've noticed a trend at Woodcraft of diminishing selection as
their Festool stock rises. I've been looking for a Bora
MiterMaster...

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153...uplicator.aspx





They stopped carrying them, around the time Festool came out with
this...

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/494...er-device.aspx





I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be
nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the
price of the Festool.

I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of
other branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the
Woodcraft shelves a short time after getting in bed with
Festool.


If both prices were not true ( Bora: 59.90€ y Festool: 160€) they
would seem addressed to naive. people.

Look at (I'm sorry, but it is in French)


http://www.smartool.fr/fr/produits-b...antes-smartool




this angle measurer has the same functionality and it costs just 9.90€.
You could even do it yourself, it's not necessary to feed the
blood suckers!!!

Good luck,

GD


The tool you linked to isn't the same thing. The two tools I showed
automatically bisect the angle giving you an adjustment point for
the miter saw without having to measure it or divide the full angle
in half.

Doesn't this tool at 5.97 do the same thing? plus side is no heart
attack if lost somewhere.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Johnson-P...0000/204513502


I have 2 of those and while they do show a measurement for a bisected
angle (if you can actually read those tiny lines and numbers) you still
have to transfer that measurement (did I mention how tiny those lines
are?) to your saw.

And as Bill mentioned, the legs on that little protractor are just too
short to be of any use. It does an ok job of measuring the angle on an
already cut piece of wood, but that's about it.
Probably 85% of wall corners I've ever trimmed are not straight enough
at the corners for that little protractor to be of any use. Because of
corner bead and taping, wall corners always have at least 2 to 4" inches
on each side where they bow out. In order for a protractor to be
useful, the legs have to bridge that section to read the true angle at
which the walls intersect, not the bowing of the last few inches.

The real point in all of this that seems to be getting lost here, and
what really sets the Bora and Festool apart from every other angle
finder, is the center line on each that allows you to just line up your
saw and cut.
There's no transferring a measurement. Heck, there's no reading a
measurement. The angle reading is actually irrelevant. You place the
tool on the wall (or whatever), tighten the knob, place it on the saw,
line up the blade with the bisection line, then cut. There's no room
for error.

I used the Bora Angle Master on my last crown job and it worked as
advertized. It saved a lot of time and was very accurate. There are
some design quirks that I would prefer be different but those are just
my preferences.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply