It does involve wood so I thought I'd start with the 'wreck.

As the only uncle in the family that knows which end of the hammer
to hold, I get, um "volunteered" to "help" the rest of the family
from time. In this case, I am being asked to frame a garage
that was updated with second floor living quarters above.

Ordinarily, I'd just build the framing, erect it, nail it to the floor
with a .22 nailer, and screw it into the joists above. Unfortunately,
the ceiling is already drywalled and there is no way to determine
exactly where the joists are, what is ductwork, what is conduit,
what is venting. The quality of construction in this house is so
uneven, I rather doubt I can count on it having been built to any
real standard. The walls of the garage are cinder block.
Is it feasible to put cleats on the cinder and secure the studding
to those cleats? I sort of don't think .22 nailing into cinder block
is a great idea so does this mean I have to use anchors to go into
the block.

One other stupid question. When I've seen foundations done with cinder
block, they got filled with concrete. Given this is a garage wall,
can I reasonably assume the same here or could I be dealing with
hollow centers? I kind of doubt it because they built this giant
master bedroom above the garage and I wonder if hollow cinder could
support the load.


Sigh...

And Thanks IN Advance,
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message


One other stupid question. When I've seen foundations
done with cinder block, they got filled with concrete. Given this is a
garage wall, can I reasonably assume the
same here or could I be dealing with hollow centers? I
kind of doubt it because they built this giant master
bedroom above the garage and I wonder if hollow cinder
could support the load.

Most of the block is probably hollow. The cells at corners and where there
are penetrations - windows, doors - generally have vertical steel and the
cells are filled. The top course is (around here, at least) a "U" shaped
lintel; it too has steel, horizontally, which is tied into all vertical
steel and the "U" is then filled with grout (concrete/mortar on the watery
side so it will flow).



--

dadiOH
____________________________

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Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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On 11/2/2013 9:50 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
The walls of the garage are cinder block.
Is it feasible to put cleats on the cinder and secure the studding
to those cleats? I sort of don't think .22 nailing into cinder block
is a great idea so does this mean I have to use anchors to go into
the block.

If you can attach to both ceiling joists above, and the floor, it is
often unnecessary to attach to the concrete block wall also.

If you feel you must, my preference is to use Tapcon screws and/or
concrete anchors into the cinder block walls, and the concrete floor.

I would also take the time to find as many ceiling joists as possible
and nail the top plate into them, as well as screw the sill plates down
with Tapcon/concrete anchors as mentioned above

Since the area where the nails will go in the ceiling will be covered by
the top plate, there should be no objection to using a nail, knife or
other method for finding joists to nail to.

This is important enough to make the effort.

Scroll the photos and take a close look at what appears to be a similar
interior framing job I just did in a bathroom demo/rebuild where two
adjoining walls were concrete blocks:

https://plus.google.com/photos/11135...809?banner=pwa

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Scary.

I'm building a metal building. A library & new office, work room
and a game room. The first two are in the same room.

28x70 - the center room is 14' and the other two rooms are equal.

We are hanging lots of bar lights in the room. Our ceiling is made
from a Lam beam that is 18x6x28' two of those, one in each large room.
From that beam to the wood wall are 2x6's (#1's). Built like a tank,
but won't falter in the load. But consider the beam weighs about the
same as the 2x6's and only hold up bar lights and not a single fan.

If the walls can handle the weight, can the decking that forms the
floor hold the load while over your head ?

I worked with my contractor to spec the beam and he went with our
work to an expert. He got it approved.

We put the long beam down the long center so we might shorten
the 2x6's and lower the over all cost. Still expensive!

I'd take down the drywall ceiling and walls. I'd look and make
a decision. Life might be at the balance point.

Martin

On 11/2/2013 9:50 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
It does involve wood so I thought I'd start with the 'wreck.

As the only uncle in the family that knows which end of the hammer
to hold, I get, um "volunteered" to "help" the rest of the family
from time. In this case, I am being asked to frame a garage
that was updated with second floor living quarters above.

Ordinarily, I'd just build the framing, erect it, nail it to the floor
with a .22 nailer, and screw it into the joists above. Unfortunately,
the ceiling is already drywalled and there is no way to determine
exactly where the joists are, what is ductwork, what is conduit,
what is venting. The quality of construction in this house is so
uneven, I rather doubt I can count on it having been built to any
real standard. The walls of the garage are cinder block.
Is it feasible to put cleats on the cinder and secure the studding
to those cleats? I sort of don't think .22 nailing into cinder block
is a great idea so does this mean I have to use anchors to go into
the block.

One other stupid question. When I've seen foundations done with cinder
block, they got filled with concrete. Given this is a garage wall,
can I reasonably assume the same here or could I be dealing with
hollow centers? I kind of doubt it because they built this giant
master bedroom above the garage and I wonder if hollow cinder could
support the load.


Sigh...

And Thanks IN Advance,

dadiOH wrote:
"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message


One other stupid question. When I've seen foundations
done with cinder block, they got filled with concrete. Given this
is a garage wall, can I reasonably assume the
same here or could I be dealing with hollow centers? I
kind of doubt it because they built this giant master
bedroom above the garage and I wonder if hollow cinder
could support the load.

Most of the block is probably hollow. The cells at corners and where
there are penetrations - windows, doors - generally have vertical
steel and the cells are filled. The top course is (around here, at
least) a "U" shaped lintel; it too has steel, horizontally, which is
tied into all vertical steel and the "U" is then filled with grout
(concrete/mortar on the watery side so it will flow).

That would be a very regional thing. Around here, the cores are often not
filled at all, if they are, it's often at random intervals, and there is no
cap as described by dadiOH, above, nor are there any special corner
treatments. Standard hollow block is indeed plenty strong enough to support
itself and the building above it, and that is evidenced by the number of
basements.

Can't you cut a test hole here and there that will be covered by the walls
later on, and determine the location and spacing of the floor joists for the
second floor? You can then secure the tops of your walls to them, and screw
or nail the shoe into the floor.

--

-Mike-

On 11/2/2013 11:11 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

If the walls can handle the weight, can the decking that forms the
floor hold the load while over your head ?

I worked with my contractor to spec the beam and he went with our
work to an expert. He got it approved.

Hopefully that "expert" was a licensed PE (Professional Engineer), and
you got his a 'wet seal' approval of the work performed, in writing ..
normally in the form of an "As Built" letter.

In any _structural modification_ that may involve load bearing
components to an existing house, or modify those components, the routine
should always be to hire a PE to make a plan based on an inspection of
the structure prior to any work; then inspect that work after the fact
to insure that it conforms to the plan before issuing an "As Built"
letter stating that the work does indeed conform to his plan.

With third party inspections now routinely a major part of a home sale,
you, or your heirs, may well need it for future sale in order to prove
that the work was done in conformance with local codes.

We put the long beam down the long center so we might shorten
the 2x6's and lower the over all cost. Still expensive!

I'd take down the drywall ceiling and walls. I'd look and make
a decision. Life might be at the balance point.

If the OP is not making any structural modification, like removing, or
modifying, a load bearing wall, it may well be that, and depending upon
which way the ceiling joists run, a new interior wall may actually
strengthen the existing floor above.

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 11/02/2013 09:50 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
It does involve wood so I thought I'd start with the 'wreck.

Thanks everyone for taking the time. I think perhaps the best
strategy here will be to find something up in the joists
to screw into.




--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/