On 8/25/12 12:16 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:34:47 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/24/12 11:17 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.


How freakin hot is your shop?
I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120 degrees
before it affects performance.

Any heat is bad for batteries. Chemical processes go something like the
square of the temperature, doubling every 10C. I always keep them in the
house during the summer. My garage (and attic where most of my tools are) can
*easily* get to 120F in the summer. It'll be much nicer in the basement of
the new place. ;-)


I'm pretty sure he didn't mean storage, maybe he did. In any case, like
you pointed out, heat like that is going to effect any battery. I've
been working with battery powered tools, and audio/video equipment for
30 years and I've been through most of the evolution and had a lot of
experience with every generation/technology. I'll take LiIon over any of
them, up until this point. Whatever is down the creek will probably be
better.

For many tasks LiIon is the best, though NiCd still has its place.


Not for me. NiCad was better than the previous generation of batteries,
but just barely. NiCads couldn't go away fast enough in my book. I can't
think of a single use for which I would prefer NiCad batteries... except
maybe ballast under my buffing wheel. :-)



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote in
:

On 8/25/12 12:16 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:34:47 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/24/12 11:17 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.


How freakin hot is your shop?
I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120
degrees before it affects performance.

Any heat is bad for batteries. Chemical processes go something
like the square of the temperature, doubling every 10C. I always
keep them in the house during the summer. My garage (and attic
where most of my tools are) can *easily* get to 120F in the summer.
It'll be much nicer in the basement of the new place. ;-)


I'm pretty sure he didn't mean storage, maybe he did. In any case,
like you pointed out, heat like that is going to effect any battery.
I've been working with battery powered tools, and audio/video
equipment for 30 years and I've been through most of the evolution
and had a lot of experience with every generation/technology. I'll
take LiIon over any of them, up until this point. Whatever is down
the creek will probably be better.

For many tasks LiIon is the best, though NiCd still has its place.


Not for me. NiCad was better than the previous generation of
batteries, but just barely. NiCads couldn't go away fast enough in my
book. I can't think of a single use for which I would prefer NiCad
batteries... except maybe ballast under my buffing wheel. :-)

Sometimes it is the execution of the technology. I had a NiCad 9.6V
battery-driven Sears (yeah, I know) drill/driver (973.274960) that
couldn't hold a charge. I had the 2 sets of batteries rebuilt by
Primecell in March '11, and now it holds charge really fine. The old
charger works with them. Not an especially fast high powered drill, but
now the batteries work fine. It was cheaper (but maybe not that much)
than buying a new drill.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:31:17 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/25/12 12:16 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:34:47 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/24/12 11:17 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.


How freakin hot is your shop?
I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120 degrees
before it affects performance.

Any heat is bad for batteries. Chemical processes go something like the
square of the temperature, doubling every 10C. I always keep them in the
house during the summer. My garage (and attic where most of my tools are) can
*easily* get to 120F in the summer. It'll be much nicer in the basement of
the new place. ;-)


I'm pretty sure he didn't mean storage, maybe he did. In any case, like
you pointed out, heat like that is going to effect any battery. I've
been working with battery powered tools, and audio/video equipment for
30 years and I've been through most of the evolution and had a lot of
experience with every generation/technology. I'll take LiIon over any of
them, up until this point. Whatever is down the creek will probably be
better.

For many tasks LiIon is the best, though NiCd still has its place.


Not for me. NiCad was better than the previous generation of batteries,
but just barely. NiCads couldn't go away fast enough in my book. I can't
think of a single use for which I would prefer NiCad batteries... except
maybe ballast under my buffing wheel. :-)

NiCd works better for appliances that need a very large current (NiCd has a
low series resistance and won't go bang). NiCd is probably better for
cordless saws, for this reason. Drills are certainly within the scope of
LiIon, though.

NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
application. ;-)

On 25 Aug 2012 17:58:56 GMT, Han wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in
:

On 8/25/12 12:16 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:34:47 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/24/12 11:17 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.


How freakin hot is your shop?
I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120
degrees before it affects performance.

Any heat is bad for batteries. Chemical processes go something
like the square of the temperature, doubling every 10C. I always
keep them in the house during the summer. My garage (and attic
where most of my tools are) can *easily* get to 120F in the summer.
It'll be much nicer in the basement of the new place. ;-)


I'm pretty sure he didn't mean storage, maybe he did. In any case,
like you pointed out, heat like that is going to effect any battery.
I've been working with battery powered tools, and audio/video
equipment for 30 years and I've been through most of the evolution
and had a lot of experience with every generation/technology. I'll
take LiIon over any of them, up until this point. Whatever is down
the creek will probably be better.

For many tasks LiIon is the best, though NiCd still has its place.


Not for me. NiCad was better than the previous generation of
batteries, but just barely. NiCads couldn't go away fast enough in my
book. I can't think of a single use for which I would prefer NiCad
batteries... except maybe ballast under my buffing wheel. :-)

Sometimes it is the execution of the technology. I had a NiCad 9.6V
battery-driven Sears (yeah, I know) drill/driver (973.274960) that
couldn't hold a charge. I had the 2 sets of batteries rebuilt by
Primecell in March '11, and now it holds charge really fine. The old
charger works with them. Not an especially fast high powered drill, but
now the batteries work fine. It was cheaper (but maybe not that much)
than buying a new drill.

Lookign at what they want for rebuilds now, I don't think they are cheaper
than buying new tools. :-(

" wrote in
:

On 25 Aug 2012 17:58:56 GMT, Han wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in
:

On 8/25/12 12:16 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:34:47 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/24/12 11:17 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/24/12 9:33 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Lion batteries can't handle heat. e.g. when the shop gets hot,
the battery is failing. They are great in room temp places.


How freakin hot is your shop?
I'm pretty sure ambient temperature has to get well over 120
degrees before it affects performance.

Any heat is bad for batteries. Chemical processes go something
like the square of the temperature, doubling every 10C. I always
keep them in the house during the summer. My garage (and attic
where most of my tools are) can *easily* get to 120F in the
summer.
It'll be much nicer in the basement of the new place. ;-)


I'm pretty sure he didn't mean storage, maybe he did. In any case,
like you pointed out, heat like that is going to effect any
battery. I've been working with battery powered tools, and
audio/video equipment for 30 years and I've been through most of
the evolution and had a lot of experience with every
generation/technology. I'll take LiIon over any of them, up until
this point. Whatever is down the creek will probably be better.

For many tasks LiIon is the best, though NiCd still has its place.


Not for me. NiCad was better than the previous generation of
batteries, but just barely. NiCads couldn't go away fast enough in
my book. I can't think of a single use for which I would prefer
NiCad batteries... except maybe ballast under my buffing wheel. :-)

Sometimes it is the execution of the technology. I had a NiCad 9.6V
battery-driven Sears (yeah, I know) drill/driver (973.274960) that
couldn't hold a charge. I had the 2 sets of batteries rebuilt by
Primecell in March '11, and now it holds charge really fine. The old
charger works with them. Not an especially fast high powered drill,
but now the batteries work fine. It was cheaper (but maybe not that
much) than buying a new drill.

Lookign at what they want for rebuilds now, I don't think they are
cheaper than buying new tools. :-(

I believe this was March 2010. I now have superior batteries.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/25/12 7:32 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
application. ;-)


Lead Acid is one battery that is the exception to my rule that the next
gen is always better.... sort of.....

At my last "real" job, I managed and maintained all the audio/video
production gear for a college that taught production. The NiCad batts we
had for video cameras wore out so fast and were so expensive that I had
to come up with a better solution for the students in the field video
prod classes.

After researching, I decided that emergency lighting batteries would
work great. Video cameras run on 12 volts DC, in an operating range
around 10.5-14 volts. These lead acid "brick" batteries would charge up
to 14 volts, had an incredibly high amp-hour capacity for the current
draw of the cameras, and wouldn't develop a "memory."

I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:44:18 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/25/12 7:32 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
application. ;-)


Lead Acid is one battery that is the exception to my rule that the next
gen is always better.... sort of.....

At my last "real" job, I managed and maintained all the audio/video
production gear for a college that taught production. The NiCad batts we
had for video cameras wore out so fast and were so expensive that I had
to come up with a better solution for the students in the field video
prod classes.

After researching, I decided that emergency lighting batteries would
work great. Video cameras run on 12 volts DC, in an operating range
around 10.5-14 volts. These lead acid "brick" batteries would charge up
to 14 volts, had an incredibly high amp-hour capacity for the current
draw of the cameras, and wouldn't develop a "memory."

They're terrible if you discharge them completely, though. Lead-acid
batteries have to be cared for like a newborn baby. They're a natural for car
starters or emergency lighting, for pretty much everything else they're sub
optimum. I did design some SLACs into a mainframe, a little over 20 years
ago (stored crypto keys with power off) but they weren't without problems.
LiIon would have been a much better solution today.

The "memory" problem isn't. It hasn't been an issue with NiCds for at *least*
thirty years, probably forty. Over-charging or reverse-charging (during
discharge) is what kills NiCds.

I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:44:18 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/25/12 7:32 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
application. ;-)


Lead Acid is one battery that is the exception to my rule that the next
gen is always better.... sort of.....

At my last "real" job, I managed and maintained all the audio/video
production gear for a college that taught production. The NiCad batts we
had for video cameras wore out so fast and were so expensive that I had
to come up with a better solution for the students in the field video
prod classes.

After researching, I decided that emergency lighting batteries would
work great. Video cameras run on 12 volts DC, in an operating range
around 10.5-14 volts. These lead acid "brick" batteries would charge up
to 14 volts, had an incredibly high amp-hour capacity for the current
draw of the cameras, and wouldn't develop a "memory."

I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

Until they short out agains't a Field production audio mixer, this was
a fix I participated in when working at Shure Brothers many years ago.

The mixer was general toasted.

On 8/25/12 11:55 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:44:18 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/25/12 7:32 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
application. ;-)


Lead Acid is one battery that is the exception to my rule that the next
gen is always better.... sort of.....

At my last "real" job, I managed and maintained all the audio/video
production gear for a college that taught production. The NiCad batts we
had for video cameras wore out so fast and were so expensive that I had
to come up with a better solution for the students in the field video
prod classes.

After researching, I decided that emergency lighting batteries would
work great. Video cameras run on 12 volts DC, in an operating range
around 10.5-14 volts. These lead acid "brick" batteries would charge up
to 14 volts, had an incredibly high amp-hour capacity for the current
draw of the cameras, and wouldn't develop a "memory."

They're terrible if you discharge them completely, though. Lead-acid
batteries have to be cared for like a newborn baby. They're a natural for car
starters or emergency lighting, for pretty much everything else they're sub
optimum. I did design some SLACs into a mainframe, a little over 20 years
ago (stored crypto keys with power off) but they weren't without problems.
LiIon would have been a much better solution today.

The "memory" problem isn't. It hasn't been an issue with NiCds for at *least*
thirty years, probably forty. Over-charging or reverse-charging (during
discharge) is what kills NiCds.

I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).


They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
ni-cads, for this particular application.

I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
ever in danger.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/26/12 9:40 AM, Markem wrote:
I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

Until they short out agains't a Field production audio mixer, this was
a fix I participated in when working at Shure Brothers many years ago.

The mixer was general toasted.


I generally wouldn't send batteries out to power equipment they
outweighed by five fold. :-) I sent them out with cameras that were
much heavier.

But I'm curious about how this can happen, if you care to explain what
happened in your situation. Are you saying the the battery terminals
shorted against the mixer's housing? Or that there was a short in the
wiring. Most of our professional and even pro-sumer field gear had
internal fusing to protect against current overloads or shorts.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:30:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/26/12 9:40 AM, Markem wrote:
I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

Until they short out agains't a Field production audio mixer, this was
a fix I participated in when working at Shure Brothers many years ago.

The mixer was general toasted.


I generally wouldn't send batteries out to power equipment they
outweighed by five fold. :-) I sent them out with cameras that were
much heavier.

But I'm curious about how this can happen, if you care to explain what
happened in your situation. Are you saying the the battery terminals
shorted against the mixer's housing? Or that there was a short in the
wiring. Most of our professional and even pro-sumer field gear had
internal fusing to protect against current overloads or shorts.

Primary problem was draining the battery when it shorted out agains't
the mixers frame, but occasionally it fried the mixer, solution was to
put a fuse from the external power jack so it would blow and not drain
the battery. This was one of the changes from Shures FP-32 to FP-33.

Mark

On 8/26/12 11:46 AM, Markem wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:30:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/26/12 9:40 AM, Markem wrote:
I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

Until they short out agains't a Field production audio mixer, this was
a fix I participated in when working at Shure Brothers many years ago.

The mixer was general toasted.


I generally wouldn't send batteries out to power equipment they
outweighed by five fold. :-) I sent them out with cameras that were
much heavier.

But I'm curious about how this can happen, if you care to explain what
happened in your situation. Are you saying the the battery terminals
shorted against the mixer's housing? Or that there was a short in the
wiring. Most of our professional and even pro-sumer field gear had
internal fusing to protect against current overloads or shorts.

Primary problem was draining the battery when it shorted out agains't
the mixers frame, but occasionally it fried the mixer, solution was to
put a fuse from the external power jack so it would blow and not drain
the battery. This was one of the changes from Shures FP-32 to FP-33.

Mark


I put the batteries in a plastic tool box with an in-line fuse to the
4-pin xlr power jack.
I only remember one time having a fuse blow and I never could get a
straight answer from the student about what precipitated it. I later
discovered a power cable with a slice half way through it. I suspect
whatever made the cut had shorted two wires in the cable.

BTW, we used a bunch of Shure 4-ch mono mixers. I forget the model
number (M267?) but they were probably late 80's models with the big analog
needle VU and big round knobs on the front. Those things were workhorses
and stood up to a lot of abuse. Easy to repair, too.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/25/12 11:55 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:44:18 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/25/12 7:32 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
NiCds aren't heavy enough for ballast. You need lead-acid batteries, for that
application. ;-)


Lead Acid is one battery that is the exception to my rule that the next
gen is always better.... sort of.....

At my last "real" job, I managed and maintained all the audio/video
production gear for a college that taught production. The NiCad batts we
had for video cameras wore out so fast and were so expensive that I had
to come up with a better solution for the students in the field video
prod classes.

After researching, I decided that emergency lighting batteries would
work great. Video cameras run on 12 volts DC, in an operating range
around 10.5-14 volts. These lead acid "brick" batteries would charge up
to 14 volts, had an incredibly high amp-hour capacity for the current
draw of the cameras, and wouldn't develop a "memory."

They're terrible if you discharge them completely, though. Lead-acid
batteries have to be cared for like a newborn baby. They're a natural for car
starters or emergency lighting, for pretty much everything else they're sub
optimum. I did design some SLACs into a mainframe, a little over 20 years
ago (stored crypto keys with power off) but they weren't without problems.
LiIon would have been a much better solution today.

The "memory" problem isn't. It hasn't been an issue with NiCds for at *least*
thirty years, probably forty. Over-charging or reverse-charging (during
discharge) is what kills NiCds.

I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).


They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
ni-cads, for this particular application.

As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
operation, that's a good plan. SLACs are actually great technology as long as
you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.

I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
ever in danger.

Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.

On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:
As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).


They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
ni-cads, for this particular application.

As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
operation, that's a good plan.

I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.


SLACs are actually great technology as long as
you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.

I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
ever in danger.

Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.


That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:15:36 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:
As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).


They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
ni-cads, for this particular application.

As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
operation, that's a good plan.

I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.

NiCds don't mind being run right down to zero, as long as the individual cells
aren't reverse-charged in the process. IOW, a single-cell flashlight won't be
damaged at all by being left on until it's dead. A multi-cell battery will
only be harmed if the cells are badly matched. Lead-acids care a *lot*.

SLACs are actually great technology as long as
you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.

I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
ever in danger.

Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.


That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.

Exactly. As long as they aren't run down below about 50% and are otherwise
kept charged (on a charger designed for the purpose) they'll last many years.
Ten years isn't unusual. The thing that kills car batteries is the heat under
the hood. Even then, in the North it's not unusual to have a car battery last
eight years.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:37:00 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/26/12 11:46 AM, Markem wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:30:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 8/26/12 9:40 AM, Markem wrote:
I wired two of these "bricks" together in small plastic tool boxes. They
would power the cameras for hours at a time and I used simple 12v power
supplies to charge them. I recall that it cost me less to make two of
these double battery tool boxes for less than a single camera battery.
They provided about 20x the power of the camera batts and lasted for years.

Until they short out agains't a Field production audio mixer, this was
a fix I participated in when working at Shure Brothers many years ago.

The mixer was general toasted.


I generally wouldn't send batteries out to power equipment they
outweighed by five fold. :-) I sent them out with cameras that were
much heavier.

But I'm curious about how this can happen, if you care to explain what
happened in your situation. Are you saying the the battery terminals
shorted against the mixer's housing? Or that there was a short in the
wiring. Most of our professional and even pro-sumer field gear had
internal fusing to protect against current overloads or shorts.

Primary problem was draining the battery when it shorted out agains't
the mixers frame, but occasionally it fried the mixer, solution was to
put a fuse from the external power jack so it would blow and not drain
the battery. This was one of the changes from Shures FP-32 to FP-33.

Mark


I put the batteries in a plastic tool box with an in-line fuse to the
4-pin xlr power jack.
I only remember one time having a fuse blow and I never could get a
straight answer from the student about what precipitated it. I later
discovered a power cable with a slice half way through it. I suspect
whatever made the cut had shorted two wires in the cable.

BTW, we used a bunch of Shure 4-ch mono mixers. I forget the model
number (M267?) but they were probably late 80's models with the big analog
needle VU and big round knobs on the front. Those things were workhorses
and stood up to a lot of abuse. Easy to repair, too.

I remember those I believe they still make them though it has been 16
years since I was in Shures employ. Fixed a lot of them when I worked
in the production facility. Though I started out fixing the Home
Theater Surround systems, but I fixed every piece of equipment that
they manufactured in the mid 80's through about 90 when I moved to
R&D. And you got the model number correct.

Mark

On 08/26/2012 03:30 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:15:36 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:
As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).


They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
ni-cads, for this particular application.

As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
operation, that's a good plan.

I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.

NiCds don't mind being run right down to zero, as long as the individual cells
aren't reverse-charged in the process. IOW, a single-cell flashlight won't be
damaged at all by being left on until it's dead. A multi-cell battery will
only be harmed if the cells are badly matched. Lead-acids care a *lot*.

SLACs are actually great technology as long as
you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.

I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
ever in danger.

Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.


That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.

Exactly. As long as they aren't run down below about 50% and are otherwise
kept charged (on a charger designed for the purpose) they'll last many years.
Ten years isn't unusual. The thing that kills car batteries is the heat under
the hood. Even then, in the North it's not unusual to have a car battery last
eight years.


About two years here in the Arizona desert.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 8/26/12 5:30 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:15:36 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:
As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).


They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
ni-cads, for this particular application.

As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
operation, that's a good plan.

I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.

NiCds don't mind being run right down to zero, as long as the individual cells
aren't reverse-charged in the process. IOW, a single-cell flashlight won't be
damaged at all by being left on until it's dead. A multi-cell battery will
only be harmed if the cells are badly matched. Lead-acids care a *lot*.


I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
stupid" part.



SLACs are actually great technology as long as
you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.

I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
ever in danger.

Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.


That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.

Exactly. As long as they aren't run down below about 50% and are otherwise
kept charged (on a charger designed for the purpose) they'll last many years.
Ten years isn't unusual. The thing that kills car batteries is the heat under
the hood. Even then, in the North it's not unusual to have a car battery last
eight years.


Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
adverse effect.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/26/12 6:06 PM, Markem wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:37:00 -0500, -MIKE-
Primary problem was draining the battery when it shorted out agains't
the mixers frame, but occasionally it fried the mixer, solution was to
put a fuse from the external power jack so it would blow and not drain
the battery. This was one of the changes from Shures FP-32 to FP-33.

Mark


I put the batteries in a plastic tool box with an in-line fuse to the
4-pin xlr power jack.
I only remember one time having a fuse blow and I never could get a
straight answer from the student about what precipitated it. I later
discovered a power cable with a slice half way through it. I suspect
whatever made the cut had shorted two wires in the cable.

BTW, we used a bunch of Shure 4-ch mono mixers. I forget the model
number (M267?) but they were probably late 80's models with the big analog
needle VU and big round knobs on the front. Those things were workhorses
and stood up to a lot of abuse. Easy to repair, too.

I remember those I believe they still make them though it has been 16
years since I was in Shures employ. Fixed a lot of them when I worked
in the production facility. Though I started out fixing the Home
Theater Surround systems, but I fixed every piece of equipment that
they manufactured in the mid 80's through about 90 when I moved to
R&D. And you got the model number correct.

Mark


You guys made great stuff... great quality, tough, dependable, easy to
repair/modify. Shure was always at the top of the list for new gear
acquisitions. Shure and Sony never let down.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:11:31 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 5:30 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:15:36 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 3:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:11:32 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:
As long as they're constantly charged and never fully discharged, lead-acid
batteries will last a long time. A couple of complete discharges and they're
dead. It's rather the opposite of NiCds (there aren't any applications where
they can be interchanged - one or the other is sub-optimum).


They were never fully discharged... not even close. They couldn't be,
since the voltage operating range of the equipment was so high. That's
one of the things that made them perfect, and much, much better than the
ni-cads, for this particular application.

As long as they don't do anything stupid when the voltage goes too low for
operation, that's a good plan.

I don't see how that statement wouldn't apply to any battery.

NiCds don't mind being run right down to zero, as long as the individual cells
aren't reverse-charged in the process. IOW, a single-cell flashlight won't be
damaged at all by being left on until it's dead. A multi-cell battery will
only be harmed if the cells are badly matched. Lead-acids care a *lot*.


I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
stupid" part.

Well, your camera wasn't intended to use Pb batteries and I've seen many
designers do "something stupid". It's easy, when batteries are involved.
BTDT. ;-)

SLACs are actually great technology as long as
you treat them right. They're heavy and not very dense, though.

I don't know at what voltage those emergency lights operate, nor how far
down they would drain those lead acid cricks. But the equipment I used
them to power shuts off due to low power long before the batteries were
ever in danger.

Emergency lights often run them right down into the ground. The idea is that
they're only used for emergencies. ;-) The reason for lead-acid technology,
here is their float charge capability. They'll last years without
maintenance. Only LiIon is starting to approach that now.


That might be one reason they lasted so long for our particular use.

Exactly. As long as they aren't run down below about 50% and are otherwise
kept charged (on a charger designed for the purpose) they'll last many years.
Ten years isn't unusual. The thing that kills car batteries is the heat under
the hood. Even then, in the North it's not unusual to have a car battery last
eight years.


Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
adverse effect.

Yes, you've said that. I was making a more general point, though. Not all
equipment behaves nicely when it runs out of power.

On 8/26/12 7:34 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
stupid" part.

Well, your camera wasn't intended to use Pb batteries and I've seen many
designers do "something stupid". It's easy, when batteries are involved.
BTDT. ;-)

I really doubt the camera knows the difference between the 12 volts DC
coming from a lead acid battery and a nicad or nickel or lithium, etc.


Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
adverse effect.

Yes, you've said that. I was making a more general point, though. Not all
equipment behaves nicely when it runs out of power.


Ours did... every time. It very nicely, just shut right off like good
boys.
You apparently are just looking to have the last word, so go ahead. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 7:34 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
stupid" part.

Well, your camera wasn't intended to use Pb batteries and I've seen many
designers do "something stupid". It's easy, when batteries are involved.
BTDT. ;-)

I really doubt the camera knows the difference between the 12 volts DC
coming from a lead acid battery and a nicad or nickel or lithium, etc.

Good grief. The device designer may not have cared if the device ran the
battery into the ground (hence the "doing something stupid" comment). NiCds
don't care (with the restrictions stated elsewhere).

Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
adverse effect.

Yes, you've said that. I was making a more general point, though. Not all
equipment behaves nicely when it runs out of power.


Ours did... every time. It very nicely, just shut right off like good
boys.
You apparently are just looking to have the last word, so go ahead. :-)

Can you read?

On 8/26/12 8:08 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 7:34 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
stupid" part.

Well, your camera wasn't intended to use Pb batteries and I've seen many
designers do "something stupid". It's easy, when batteries are involved.
BTDT. ;-)

I really doubt the camera knows the difference between the 12 volts DC
coming from a lead acid battery and a nicad or nickel or lithium, etc.

Good grief. The device designer may not have cared if the device ran the
battery into the ground (hence the "doing something stupid" comment). NiCds
don't care (with the restrictions stated elsewhere).

Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
adverse effect.

Yes, you've said that. I was making a more general point, though. Not all
equipment behaves nicely when it runs out of power.


Ours did... every time. It very nicely, just shut right off like good
boys.
You apparently are just looking to have the last word, so go ahead. :-)

Can you read?


I'm wondering the same thing about you. I've said probably 6 times that
the equipment won't allow the batteries to be run down but you keep
bringing it up.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 20:19:08 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 8:08 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:43:38 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

On 8/26/12 7:34 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
I know that... I was referring to the "As long as they don't do anything
stupid" part.

Well, your camera wasn't intended to use Pb batteries and I've seen many
designers do "something stupid". It's easy, when batteries are involved.
BTDT. ;-)

I really doubt the camera knows the difference between the 12 volts DC
coming from a lead acid battery and a nicad or nickel or lithium, etc.

Good grief. The device designer may not have cared if the device ran the
battery into the ground (hence the "doing something stupid" comment). NiCds
don't care (with the restrictions stated elsewhere).

Being run down that far would be impossible the way we ran them. Like I
said... what, four times, now? :-)...... the gear shuts down way, way,
way before the batteries are anywhere near discharged enough to have an
adverse effect.

Yes, you've said that. I was making a more general point, though. Not all
equipment behaves nicely when it runs out of power.


Ours did... every time. It very nicely, just shut right off like good
boys.
You apparently are just looking to have the last word, so go ahead. :-)

Can you read?


I'm wondering the same thing about you. I've said probably 6 times that
the equipment won't allow the batteries to be run down but you keep
bringing it up.

You're impossible.