On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:02:40 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/8/2011 11:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:31 pm, wrote:

I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Supreme Court will overturn
it. I'm glad the suit happened, though, and got so much attention.
The major tool companies have had plenty of time to start retooling
and upgrading safety since SawStop came on the scene. They've known
which way the wind was blowing and something needed to be shaken
loose.

R

Totally agree! I am not too happy about SawStop pushing their product
through government intervention however I am equally unhappy about all
the other other manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too
high a price to pay.
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

You can't beat stupid. Make something idiotproof and they just come up
with a better idiot, and another dozen lawyers.

On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve to
pay the stupid tax.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Stuart Wheaton wrote:


The problem with this seems to be that Sawstop has the technology very
thoroughly patented, and is not willing to license for anything
reasonable, then they start a suit to result in their tech being
required.

A lot of people are saying this, but I'm not so sure it's completely true.
The only things that I have seen that related to licensing fees were the
fees that Gass attempted to get in his conversations with the manufacturers.
I have not heard anyone here state that they have any real information on
the negotiations that were attempted between Gass and any of the
manufacturers. For him to come in high, and be negotiated down, would be
normal business.

On the other hand, the other side of that whole thing is that the lawyers
for the manufacturers tried to avoid any liabilities that would potentially
arise if the manufacturers "admitted" safety issues by adopting this new
technology. While Gass may have been guilty of trying to charge too much
for his product, he's not the one responsible for this line of thinking by
the manufacturers.


My understanding is that the principal in Sawstop is actually a patent
lawyer.


Yes, he is as well as two of his partners in the venture. And that means...
what?

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:


Totally agree! I am not too happy about SawStop pushing their product
through government intervention however I am equally unhappy about all
the other other manufacturers that have decided that more safety is
too high a price to pay.

My thoughts exactly. I'm not fond of his approach with the CPSC, but that's
just what makes me the loveable fellow that I am. That said - I see nothing
unethical about what he's doing. I see it as more unethical that the
manufacturers chose the route they did.

--

-Mike-

On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:40:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/8/2011 7:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:56:37 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/8/2011 3:18 PM, HeyBub wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 1:50 pm, Gerald wrote:

This may be the beginning of the end of reasonably priced table saws
for occasional users like me. I still have my hand saws.

They're dangerous, too. A common injury back in the day was
"carpenter's thumb". That's where the saw jumped the kerf and bit
into the back of the thumb and cut the tendon. That left the poor sod
with a thumb that could be flexed but not straightened.

There simply will not be an overnight change in the entire saw
market. If and when the new regs roll out it will mean that only new
tools would be required to conform to the new and improved safety
regulations. Used tools will still be available, though the prices of
those will probably rise a bit as well. The regulations would have a
date of compliance set at some point in the future, which will allow
people to start hoarding existing saws, new and used.

Take a gamble - buy a dozen hobbiest tablesaws from Harbor Freight.
Shouldn't cost more than a few hundred and the potential payback might
be double that...if you live that long.


Look for instructions on the web on how to defeat SawStop, thereby saving
$100 or so on the false positives.

Defeating the required SawStop will be as common as removing the blade guard
and might be as simple as clipping a couple of wires...


Contact SawStop and ask them how many false stops that they have not
helped the owner out with. From what I have always heard by those that
had a story to go with the situation, SawStop always provided the
replacement parts.

Do they fork over $125 for a new blade, too?

Not sure but I recall some one saying that one must take responsibility
for ones mistakes.

If those were false positives, then SawStop is the responsible party.
But just try to get blood out of a gilded turnip.

--
The most decisive actions of our life - I mean those that are most
likely to decide the whole course of our future - are, more often
than not, unconsidered.
-- Andre Gide

RicodJour wrote:

I'm sorry, but Gass is a self-serving ****head. If you think
otherwise you're a damned fool.

Who's he supposed to be serving - you? It's his fookin' business, and
he gets to run it any way he sees fit. I don't give a rat's ass about
Gass and it's not a popularity contest anyway.

There's an old saying, "You can't blame a guy for asking." He's
asking the CPSC for something. It's up to them whether they say yes
or no. Nobody's holding a gun to their heads.

Your righteous indignation is misplaced, and mis-timed. Your beef
shouldn't be with him. If you have a beef it should be with the CPSC
- IF they essentially pass a SawStop mandate. That's a big if. When
and if that mandate happens, then you can tell me I told you so. I
won't be holding my breath.


Look at two great American inventors:

Ben Franklin
Lightning rod
Bifocals
Franklin stove
Urinary catheter
The odometer

Thomas Edison
Electric light
Phonograph
Motion picture camera
1093 various patents

Ben Franklin put his inventions into the public domain and never charged a
penny for anything.

The only thing Edison gave away was the electric chair.

-MIKE- wrote:
On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve
to pay the stupid tax.

Try building a PT privacy fence.
A. PT wood is VERY wet
B. Many times pickets have to be cut to fit
C. The solution, I suppose, is a circular saw.

On Oct 9, 1:22*am, wrote:

* Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

You can't beat stupid. Make something idiotproof and they just come up
with a better idiot, and another dozen lawyers.

This has been gone over before and you're still spreading
disinformation.

From SawStop's FAQ:

6. Will cutting green or “wet” wood activate the SawStop safety
system?
SawStop saws cut most wet wood without a problem. However, if the wood
is very green or wet (for example, wet enough to spray a mist when
cutting), or if the wood is both wet and pressure treated, then the
wood may be sufficiently conductive to trigger the brake. Accordingly,
the best practice is to dry wet or green wood before cutting by
standing it inside and apart from other wood for about one day. You
can also cut wet pressure treated wood and other conductive material
by placing the saw in bypass mode to deactivate the safety system.

That really doesn't sound too expensive or difficult. Well, other
than that someone would be doing their tablesaw a nasty turn by
cutting wood that was wet enough to spray. If someone is used to
cutting wood that's that wet with their tablesaw, maybe they should
invest in a beater saw and not ruin the good one.

Waiting a day (or ten) for wood to dry doesn't seem like a lot to ask,
especially when nearly every one on this newsgroup has concurred that
you let green wood dry in a stickered pile for a year per inch of
thickness. Peter Follansbee might disagree, but he doesn't use any
power tools at all so his opinion doesn't count.

R

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:18 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

Look for instructions on the web on how to defeat SawStop, thereby
saving $100 or so on the false positives.

Defeating the required SawStop will be as common as removing the
blade guard and might be as simple as clipping a couple of wires...

That should be just about as effective as clipping a couple of wires
inside your computer to circumvent Windows registration. Sheesh.

I said it "might" be as simple as clipping a couple of wires. Defeating the
saw stop may require buying an add-on electronic module or maybe just
removing the whole mechanism.


BTW, who exactly is "defeating" the SawStop? A business? An
individual?

Let's see how that works...
"Oh, I'm soooo sorry for you accident, Mr. HeyRube, but we at
Northwest South Federal Insurance and Bowling have investigated the
situation and since you "defeated" the safety mechanism, you're ****
out of luck. Would you be interested in adding your autos to your
insurance policy?"

And how does that conversation differ from one that would take place after
the owner removes the blade guard/splitter? Removing blade guards is quite
common; I've never seen a table saw in use (or for sale on Craigslist) that
had it's blade guard in place.

My impression is that neither conversation would take place because the saw
owner realizes the cause of the injury is entirely his.

On Oct 9, 12:24*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
says...
On Oct 8, 10:47 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
says...
On Oct 8, 6:30 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

Merceces-Benz licenses their antiskid braking patents at no charge (or
did while they were still in force, they may be expired now). If Mr.
Sawstop was really all that interested in preventing injury instead of
lining his own pockets he'd do the same.

ABS were first used in airplanes in the 30's or 40's. Chrysler had
anti-skid technology in the early 70's. Bosch and Mercedes
collaborated in the late 70's and MB rolled them out in the 80's. Not
quite the same thing as having a totally unique technology. I'd also
be very interested to see where they gave away their technology when
there were already competing technologies out there. That's not the
purpose of a patent and it makes no sense from any angle. I did a
quick search but couldn't find anything about it - do you have a link
that I could check out?

You used Mercedes as an example of how you think Gass should run his
business licensing his invention. I've looked some more, and still
can't find anything on Mercedes giving away ABS technology. Was that
one of those illustrative parables used to make a point? You know -
made up?

I also find it curious that you use a company that worked with the
Nazis as an example of how businesses should work. Wouldn't it be
only fair to give Gass fifty years to become magnanimous?

Please don't attribute some moral lapse in not taking the high road to
a guy that all the major manufacturer's told to get lost. Anyone
would have a bone to pick with them in that situation, and now he's
set on making his point and teaching them a lesson. After all - he's
a LAWYER. Lawyer's don't necessarily differentiate between making
money and doing good. They're not automatically mutually exclusive.

As far as Gass' position, I could see him negotiating downwards once
the regulations come out. It would be in his best interests to make
the money while he can as numerous billion dollar companies can afford
to lawyer-spank anybody. And it would be in the major players
interest to avoid lawyer fees and work with existing proven technology
instead of losing time in development.

I'm sorry, but Gass is a self-serving ****head. If you think otherwise
you're a damned fool.

Who's he supposed to be serving - you?

No, the government is supposed to be serving me and by trying to get it
to force businesses to buy his product he is subverting the free market.

The government is not supposed to be serving any one individual. I
don't foresee any major problem (other than for the competing tool
manufacturers), so I'm not overly concerned. You're getting worked up
about something that probably won't happen the way you seem to be
imagining it. Have you taken any action to help prevent the problem
you see looming on the horizon? Made a phone call, written a
letter...anything?

There's also no such thing as a free market, not in any sense of the
word. If you want a truly open market, there's always a flea.

It's his fookin' business, and
he gets to run it any way he sees fit. *I don't give a rat's ass about
Gass and it's not a popularity contest anyway.

It would be fine if he was content to run his own business, what makes
him a sack of **** is his attempt to run everyone else's business as
well.

He is running his business. His aims don't coincide with yours. Why
is this so strange and upsetting to you? I get more upset by China
exporting kids toys with lead paint, and making _fake_ chicken eggs
for consumption. I get more upset by oil companies falsifying data to
circumvent regulations. Gass' actions barely register on the meter.

There's an old saying, "You can't blame a guy for asking." *He's
asking the CPSC for something. *It's up to them whether they say yes
or no. *Nobody's holding a gun to their heads.

You most assuredly can blame a guy for asking. *Or would you be
perfectly cool if some guy with AIDS asked you if he could **** your
daughter in the ass?

What curious analogies run through your mind. But okay, let's run
with it. If the guy were asking randomly and just for the sport of a
it, I'd say no, and _might_ get heated about it. More likely I'd
realize the guy was a looney tune, and there's no use continuing the
interaction. But if the guy were a doctor and he was the only one
with the invention/technology that would be able to save my daughter's
life, I'd take it under consideration - with the final decision made
by the imaginary daughter, of course.

Your righteous indignation is misplaced, and mis-timed. *Your beef
shouldn't be with him. *If you have a beef it should be with the CPSC
- IF they essentially pass a SawStop mandate. *That's a big if. *When
and if that mandate happens, then you can tell me I told you so. *I
won't be holding my breath.

That's a separate beef. *He should not be asking.

Your opinion has been duly noted.

R

On Oct 9, 8:20*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:18 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

Look for instructions on the web on how to defeat SawStop, thereby
saving $100 or so on the false positives.

Defeating the required SawStop will be as common as removing the
blade guard and might be as simple as clipping a couple of wires...

That should be just about as effective as clipping a couple of wires
inside your computer to circumvent Windows registration. *Sheesh.

I said it "might" be as simple as clipping a couple of wires. Defeating the
saw stop may require buying an add-on electronic module or maybe just
removing the whole mechanism.

Sure - that's possible!

It's also possible that someone could read the manual and then they'd
know how to put the SawStop into bypass mode without having to do
something stupid.

R

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:02:40 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/8/2011 11:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:31 pm, wrote:

I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Supreme Court will overturn
it. I'm glad the suit happened, though, and got so much attention.
The major tool companies have had plenty of time to start retooling
and upgrading safety since SawStop came on the scene. They've known
which way the wind was blowing and something needed to be shaken
loose.

R

Totally agree! I am not too happy about SawStop pushing their product
through government intervention however I am equally unhappy about all
the other other manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too
high a price to pay.
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

There's a button for that you know.

You can't beat stupid. Make something idiotproof and they just come up
with a better idiot, and another dozen lawyers.

In article ,
says...

RicodJour wrote:

I'm sorry, but Gass is a self-serving ****head. If you think
otherwise you're a damned fool.

Who's he supposed to be serving - you? It's his fookin' business, and
he gets to run it any way he sees fit. I don't give a rat's ass about
Gass and it's not a popularity contest anyway.

There's an old saying, "You can't blame a guy for asking." He's
asking the CPSC for something. It's up to them whether they say yes
or no. Nobody's holding a gun to their heads.

Your righteous indignation is misplaced, and mis-timed. Your beef
shouldn't be with him. If you have a beef it should be with the CPSC
- IF they essentially pass a SawStop mandate. That's a big if. When
and if that mandate happens, then you can tell me I told you so. I
won't be holding my breath.


Look at two great American inventors:

Ben Franklin
Lightning rod
Bifocals
Franklin stove
Urinary catheter
The odometer

Thomas Edison
Electric light
Phonograph
Motion picture camera
1093 various patents

Ben Franklin put his inventions into the public domain and never charged a
penny for anything.

The only thing Edison gave away was the electric chair.

But Edison also did not lobby for legislation that required all other
forms of light to be replaced with his electric lights--he was content
to let the market take its course.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Oct 9, 1:22 am, wrote:

Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

You can't beat stupid. Make something idiotproof and they just come up
with a better idiot, and another dozen lawyers.

This has been gone over before and you're still spreading
disinformation.

From SawStop's FAQ:

6. Will cutting green or “wet” wood activate the SawStop safety
system?
SawStop saws cut most wet wood without a problem. However, if the wood
is very green or wet (for example, wet enough to spray a mist when
cutting), or if the wood is both wet and pressure treated, then the
wood may be sufficiently conductive to trigger the brake. Accordingly,
the best practice is to dry wet or green wood before cutting by
standing it inside and apart from other wood for about one day. You
can also cut wet pressure treated wood and other conductive material
by placing the saw in bypass mode to deactivate the safety system.

And after activating the bypass, some one then cuts a finger off . Do they
now sue the makers of Sawstop for telling them to turn off a feature that
they pushed through to stop that from happening ?
Jim

On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:40:08 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/8/2011 7:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:56:37 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/8/2011 3:18 PM, HeyBub wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 1:50 pm, Gerald wrote:

This may be the beginning of the end of reasonably priced table saws
for occasional users like me. I still have my hand saws.

They're dangerous, too. A common injury back in the day was
"carpenter's thumb". That's where the saw jumped the kerf and bit
into the back of the thumb and cut the tendon. That left the poor sod
with a thumb that could be flexed but not straightened.

There simply will not be an overnight change in the entire saw
market. If and when the new regs roll out it will mean that only new
tools would be required to conform to the new and improved safety
regulations. Used tools will still be available, though the prices of
those will probably rise a bit as well. The regulations would have a
date of compliance set at some point in the future, which will allow
people to start hoarding existing saws, new and used.

Take a gamble - buy a dozen hobbiest tablesaws from Harbor Freight.
Shouldn't cost more than a few hundred and the potential payback might
be double that...if you live that long.


Look for instructions on the web on how to defeat SawStop, thereby saving
$100 or so on the false positives.

Defeating the required SawStop will be as common as removing the blade guard
and might be as simple as clipping a couple of wires...


Contact SawStop and ask them how many false stops that they have not
helped the owner out with. From what I have always heard by those that
had a story to go with the situation, SawStop always provided the
replacement parts.

Do they fork over $125 for a new blade, too?

Not sure but I recall some one saying that one must take responsibility
for ones mistakes.

Mistake? We were talking about a false-trip. The "mistake" is the SawStop's.

....or are you talking about the mistake being buying a SawStop? ;-)

On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:32:26 -0400, "Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at
comcast dot net wrote:



wrote

Before using any dangerous tool it's good to think; "now if this
falls...".
It's really no different than thinking about where a knife is about to go
if
it slips.

Same thing for blacksmiths. I was watching one work once and he told me he
dropped a piece of hot metal once and tried to catch it. It cured him of
that habit forever. To this day, if something falls in the house, he just
lets it fall. To the chagrin of his wife.

I'll catch normal things. Not knives, of course.

On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:02:11 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve to
pay the stupid tax.
Does not need to be soaking wet. Had one go off at the woodworking
club when a guy had wiped down a peice of wood to accentuate the grain
so he cood see which side he wanted to be "exposed. He wiped it with a
damp rag, put it into the saw, and BANG!!!!!!

On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 10:28:40 -0500, "
wrote:

On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:32:26 -0400, "Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at
comcast dot net wrote:



wrote

Before using any dangerous tool it's good to think; "now if this
falls...".
It's really no different than thinking about where a knife is about to go
if
it slips.

Same thing for blacksmiths. I was watching one work once and he told me he
dropped a piece of hot metal once and tried to catch it. It cured him of
that habit forever. To this day, if something falls in the house, he just
lets it fall. To the chagrin of his wife.

I'll catch normal things. Not knives, of course.
I used to have a bad habit, as an apprentice mechanic, of sticking
my foot out to catch a dropped wrench etc, so it wouldn't skittar way
across the floor. One afternoon I went in to change the tanks on the
torch in regular shoes and the big two stage brass regulator slipped
from my hand.

That cured me of sticking my foot out to catch things!!!!!!

On Oct 9, 11:11*am, "Jim Northey" wrote:

And after activating the bypass, some one then cuts a finger off . Do they
now sue the makers of Sawstop for telling them to turn off a feature that
they pushed *through *to stop that from happening ?

I guess you'd have to ask that person, eh?

I was addressing the disinformation about the difficulty about cutting
wet wood, not the ability of a person/lawyer to sue over any damned
thing at all.

R

On Oct 9, 12:11*pm, wrote:

* I used to have a bad habit, as an apprentice mechanic, of sticking
my foot out to catch a dropped wrench etc, so it wouldn't skittar way
across the floor. One afternoon I went in to change the tanks on the
torch in regular shoes and the big two stage brass regulator slipped
from my hand.

That cured me of sticking my foot out to catch things!!!!!!

That's funny. I remember doing the same thing - sticking out my foot
to break the fall of the inanimate object. I don't recall when I
stopped doing that, but I'm sure it was an ouch! moment that did the
trick.

R

On 10/9/11 7:14 AM, HeyBub wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve
to pay the stupid tax.

Try building a PT privacy fence.
A. PT wood is VERY wet

Everything I've read on their website and from 3rd party accounts says
PT wood isn't a problem unless it's so wet it's spraying a mist when
cutting. My questions is who is using a $3000 table saw and $100 blade
to build a deck and why?

B. Many times pickets have to be cut to fit

Again, who's using a table saw for this?

C. The solution, I suppose, is a circular saw.

zactly. Why the discussion? :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Oct 9, 12:05 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011, -MIKE- wrote:
On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:

Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve to
pay the stupid tax.

Does not need to be soaking wet. Had one go off at the woodworking
club when a guy had wiped down a peice of wood to accentuate the grain
so he cood see which side he wanted to be "exposed. He wiped it with a
damp rag, put it into the saw, and BANG!!!!!!

That's interesting. That kind of fits in with SawStop's what-I-
thought-was odd instructions to let wet wood dry for only a day. I'm
guessing that the sensor reads surface moisture only. There's no
point in monitoring capacitance/moisture once the blade is halfway
through a finger.

Let's keep talking about it, reverse-engineer it, patent the
rec.woodworking alternative, and we can all buy our own islands. Or
for those who object to making money while doing good, donate your
islands to charity.

R

On 10/9/2011 10:27 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:40:08 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/8/2011 7:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:56:37 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/8/2011 3:18 PM, HeyBub wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 1:50 pm, Gerald wrote:

This may be the beginning of the end of reasonably priced table saws
for occasional users like me. I still have my hand saws.

They're dangerous, too. A common injury back in the day was
"carpenter's thumb". That's where the saw jumped the kerf and bit
into the back of the thumb and cut the tendon. That left the poor sod
with a thumb that could be flexed but not straightened.

There simply will not be an overnight change in the entire saw
market. If and when the new regs roll out it will mean that only new
tools would be required to conform to the new and improved safety
regulations. Used tools will still be available, though the prices of
those will probably rise a bit as well. The regulations would have a
date of compliance set at some point in the future, which will allow
people to start hoarding existing saws, new and used.

Take a gamble - buy a dozen hobbiest tablesaws from Harbor Freight.
Shouldn't cost more than a few hundred and the potential payback might
be double that...if you live that long.


Look for instructions on the web on how to defeat SawStop, thereby saving
$100 or so on the false positives.

Defeating the required SawStop will be as common as removing the blade guard
and might be as simple as clipping a couple of wires...


Contact SawStop and ask them how many false stops that they have not
helped the owner out with. From what I have always heard by those that
had a story to go with the situation, SawStop always provided the
replacement parts.

Do they fork over $125 for a new blade, too?

Not sure but I recall some one saying that one must take responsibility
for ones mistakes.

Mistake? We were talking about a false-trip. The "mistake" is the SawStop's.

...or are you talking about the mistake being buying a SawStop? ;-)

I am thinking more in lines of, what if whose fault it cannot be proven
one way or the other. Perhaps the blade was touched and it was not
actually a false trip. It is not uncommon for a manufacturer to give
the customer the benefit of the doubt and replace parts but not accessories.

On Oct 9, 8:14*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:

* *Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve
to pay the stupid tax.

Try building a PT privacy fence.
A. PT wood is VERY wet
B. Many times pickets have to be cut to fit
C. The solution, I suppose, is a circular saw.

Now that must have been a difficult thought process! I don't even use
my good circular saw on PT wood - the wood doesn't warrant it.

BTW, have you ever paid more than $150 for a tablesaw, new or used?
You're the Harbor Freight guy, so I tend to doubt it.

R

On 10/9/2011 12:22 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:02:40 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/8/2011 11:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:31 pm, wrote:

I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Supreme Court will overturn
it. I'm glad the suit happened, though, and got so much attention.
The major tool companies have had plenty of time to start retooling
and upgrading safety since SawStop came on the scene. They've known
which way the wind was blowing and something needed to be shaken
loose.

R

Totally agree! I am not too happy about SawStop pushing their product
through government intervention however I am equally unhappy about all
the other other manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too
high a price to pay.
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

You can't beat stupid. Make something idiotproof and they just come up
with a better idiot, and another dozen lawyers.

With this apparently being common knowledge and it most likely coming
with a warning to override the system...... Don't run you car into
telephone poles if you don't want it to have dents. Don't cut damp wood
on your TS it will make the top rust.

On 10/9/2011 1:02 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve to
pay the stupid tax.



Eggsactly! ;~)

On 10/9/2011 7:14 AM, HeyBub wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve
to pay the stupid tax.

Try building a PT privacy fence.
A. PT wood is VERY wet
B. Many times pickets have to be cut to fit
C. The solution, I suppose, is a circular saw.



That is why I always use/used a circular saw for all cuts on the 30+
fences that I have built. And no not "all" PT wood is very wet, I often
used kiln dried PT to guard against excessive warping.

On 10/9/2011 11:05 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:02:11 -0500,
wrote:

On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:
Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve to
pay the stupid tax.
Does not need to be soaking wet. Had one go off at the woodworking
club when a guy had wiped down a peice of wood to accentuate the grain
so he cood see which side he wanted to be "exposed. He wiped it with a
damp rag, put it into the saw, and BANG!!!!!!

Sounds like the saw worked as designed. Was there much rust on the TS
top after that experiment?

On 10/9/2011 10:11 AM, Jim Northey wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Oct 9, 1:22 am, wrote:

Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

You can't beat stupid. Make something idiotproof and they just come up
with a better idiot, and another dozen lawyers.

This has been gone over before and you're still spreading
disinformation.

From SawStop's FAQ:

6. Will cutting green or “wet” wood activate the SawStop safety
system?
SawStop saws cut most wet wood without a problem. However, if the wood
is very green or wet (for example, wet enough to spray a mist when
cutting), or if the wood is both wet and pressure treated, then the
wood may be sufficiently conductive to trigger the brake. Accordingly,
the best practice is to dry wet or green wood before cutting by
standing it inside and apart from other wood for about one day. You
can also cut wet pressure treated wood and other conductive material
by placing the saw in bypass mode to deactivate the safety system.

And after activating the bypass, some one then cuts a finger off . Do they
now sue the makers of Sawstop for telling them to turn off a feature that
they pushed through to stop that from happening ?
Jim



Not at all, the operator turned the system off. He pays the stupid tax
and hopefully he has insurance to cover the thousands of dollars that
his mistake just cost him.

On 10/9/2011 5:45 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Stuart Wheaton wrote:



My understanding is that the principal in Sawstop is actually a patent
lawyer.


Yes, he is as well as two of his partners in the venture. And that means...
what?

Well actually it means that Gass and his investors had the knowledge of
how to successfully bring a good idea to market despite the competitions
avoidance to participate.
It is unbelievable how many good ideas get bought and **** caned to keep
it becoming available.

On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 10:47:47 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

But Edison also did not lobby for legislation that required all other
forms of light to be replaced with his electric lights--he was content
to let the market take its course.

You're wasting your time - they'll never grasp the idea. Apparently the
state of business ethics is such nowadays that anything goes - even
government coercion. Ethanol anyone?

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Oct 9, 1:35*pm, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 10/9/2011 5:45 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Stuart Wheaton wrote:

My understanding is that the principal in Sawstop is actually a patent
lawyer.

Yes, he is as well as two of his partners in the venture. *And that means...
what?

Well actually it means that Gass and his investors had the knowledge of
how to successfully bring a good idea to market despite the competitions
avoidance to participate.
It is unbelievable how many good ideas get bought and **** canned to keep
it becoming available.

This was Stanley Tools MO for decades. Engulf and devour. They'd buy
competing companies, keep some products or throw the entire company
away as it was the easiest way to bury the competition, particularly
with companies that had patents and good products.

Leonard Bailey invented and patented one of the earliest (that we know
about) plane adjusting mechanism, Stanley bought him and his patents,
he ended the relationship and went out on his own again in competition
with Stanley, patent disputes, yada-yada, he lost, sold his company,
started up again, patent disputes, yada-yada, and Stanley bought his
company again and just stopped producing Bailey's planes.

This mindset lives on at B&D/Stanley.

R

On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:02:11 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.

It's not a problem because the saw comes with a switch to turn off the
sensor. Of course, I'm waiting for the day that someone turns it off,
forgets to turn it back on, loses a finger, and sues SawStop for letting
it happen.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 10/8/2011 9:49 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:52:29 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/8/2011 2:45 PM, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
On 10/8/2011 3:26 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:02:40 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/8/2011 11:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:31 pm, wrote:

I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Supreme Court will overturn
it. I'm glad the suit happened, though, and got so much attention.
The major tool companies have had plenty of time to start retooling
and upgrading safety since SawStop came on the scene. They've known
which way the wind was blowing and something needed to be shaken
loose.

R

Totally agree! I am not too happy about SawStop pushing their product
through government intervention however I am equally unhappy about all
the other other manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too
high a price to pay.

Do you know what that "price" was?

Furthermore, all the people I know who have one in their shops have had
triggers. Some of them were on wet wood, stray metal or other nuisance
reasons, some were for no known reason. None were for human/blade
contact. Each trigger costs at least $100, often more depending on the
value of the blade. This is a solution looking for a problem, especially
when you consider that a standard guard, or any after market guard would
solve the problem just as well.

Stuart

And every false trigger that I have heard of was taken care of by SawStop.

Nice! They charge you double the regular rate for a saw of that
particular quality (an extra $1,600 or so) and then give you a couple
$50 freebies to make up for it. Whatta guy!

--
The most decisive actions of our life - I mean those that are most
likely to decide the whole course of our future - are, more often
than not, unconsidered.
-- Andre Gide
Have you priced a Powermatic or The new Unisaw "with out" any the blade
brake lately? Are you normally this ignorant or do you simply have a
bug up your butt?

On 10/9/2011 7:20 AM, HeyBub wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:18 pm, wrote:

Look for instructions on the web on how to defeat SawStop, thereby
saving $100 or so on the false positives.

Defeating the required SawStop will be as common as removing the
blade guard and might be as simple as clipping a couple of wires...

That should be just about as effective as clipping a couple of wires
inside your computer to circumvent Windows registration. Sheesh.

I said it "might" be as simple as clipping a couple of wires. Defeating the
saw stop may require buying an add-on electronic module or maybe just
removing the whole mechanism.


BTW, who exactly is "defeating" the SawStop? A business? An
individual?

Let's see how that works...
"Oh, I'm soooo sorry for you accident, Mr. HeyRube, but we at
Northwest South Federal Insurance and Bowling have investigated the
situation and since you "defeated" the safety mechanism, you're ****
out of luck. Would you be interested in adding your autos to your
insurance policy?"

And how does that conversation differ from one that would take place after
the owner removes the blade guard/splitter? Removing blade guards is quite
common; I've never seen a table saw in use (or for sale on Craigslist) that
had it's blade guard in place.

My impression is that neither conversation would take place because the saw
owner realizes the cause of the injury is entirely his.




That is pretty rich and explains your non founded hard on against
SawStop. You want to buy a premium saw and disable it's best feature.

On 10/9/2011 12:52 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 10:47:47 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

But Edison also did not lobby for legislation that required all other
forms of light to be replaced with his electric lights--he was content
to let the market take its course.

You're wasting your time - they'll never grasp the idea. Apparently the
state of business ethics is such nowadays that anything goes - even
government coercion. Ethanol anyone?


Sorry that this did not turn out to be "vaporware? ;~)

On 10/9/2011 12:59 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:02:11 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.

It's not a problem because the saw comes with a switch to turn off the
sensor. Of course, I'm waiting for the day that someone turns it off,
forgets to turn it back on, loses a finger, and sues SawStop for letting
it happen.


That will be interesting, hopefully the jury will send a message to the
stupid.

On Oct 9, 2:09*pm, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 10/9/2011 7:20 AM, HeyBub wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:18 pm, *wrote:

Look for instructions on the web on how to defeat SawStop, thereby
saving $100 or so on the false positives.

Defeating the required SawStop will be as common as removing the
blade guard and might be as simple as clipping a couple of wires...

That should be just about as effective as clipping a couple of wires
inside your computer to circumvent Windows registration. *Sheesh.

I said it "might" be as simple as clipping a couple of wires. Defeating the
saw stop may require buying an add-on electronic module or maybe just
removing the whole mechanism.

BTW, who exactly is "defeating" the SawStop? *A business? *An
individual?

Let's see how that works...
"Oh, I'm soooo sorry for you accident, Mr. HeyRube, but we at
Northwest South Federal Insurance and Bowling have investigated the
situation and since you "defeated" the safety mechanism, you're ****
out of luck. *Would you be interested in adding your autos to your
insurance policy?"

And how does that conversation differ from one that would take place after
the owner removes the blade guard/splitter? Removing blade guards is quite
common; I've never seen a table saw in use (or for sale on Craigslist) that
had it's blade guard in place.

My impression is that neither conversation would take place because the saw
owner realizes the cause of the injury is entirely his.

That is pretty rich and explains your non founded hard on against
SawStop. *You want to buy a premium saw and disable it's best feature.

No, no, no. You misunderstand him. He does not want to _buy_ a
premium saw, he just wants to bitch about it.

R

In article b2311670-c21a-4a98-bb64-7b6ad3817270
@d28g2000vby.googlegroups.com, says...

On Oct 9, 12:05 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011, -MIKE- wrote:
On 10/9/11 12:22 AM, wrote:

Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

Everything I've read says it's not a problem.
Even so, here's the real issue. Who's cutting soaking wet wood with a
table saw anyway? There are too many other concerns for me to be using
wet wood before I would even approach a table saw with it. If you're
using wood that's wet enough to set off the sawstop, then you deserve to
pay the stupid tax.

Does not need to be soaking wet. Had one go off at the woodworking
club when a guy had wiped down a peice of wood to accentuate the grain
so he cood see which side he wanted to be "exposed. He wiped it with a
damp rag, put it into the saw, and BANG!!!!!!

That's interesting. That kind of fits in with SawStop's what-I-
thought-was odd instructions to let wet wood dry for only a day. I'm
guessing that the sensor reads surface moisture only. There's no
point in monitoring capacitance/moisture once the blade is halfway
through a finger.

Let's keep talking about it, reverse-engineer it, patent the
rec.woodworking alternative, and we can all buy our own islands. Or
for those who object to making money while doing good, donate your
islands to charity.

No, you'll be battling Gass in court for the rest of your life, because
he's the sort who'll keep the suits going until somebody kills him.

In article , says...

On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:02:11 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:

Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.


Everything I've read says it's not a problem.

It's not a problem because the saw comes with a switch to turn off the
sensor. Of course, I'm waiting for the day that someone turns it off,
forgets to turn it back on, loses a finger, and sues SawStop for letting
it happen.

It doesn't give that option. Every time you cycle the power the bypass
resets and you have to turn it off again if you want it to stay off.