On Oct 8, 3:02*pm, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

"manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too high a price
to pay."

No, it's us. We have decided so with purchase after purchase of low-
cost saws from HFT, etc. When better quality, safer alternatives were
available for twice the price and maybe more.

It is the proverbial Free Market - or is it the fickle fingers of
fate?

zzzzzzzzzz AKA: Stupid
-------------------------------------
Stupid writes:

Nonsense. There is good reason I did *NOT* buy a SawStop.

-----------------------------
"Bill" writes:

Well, as long as you said that much, lets here it! : )
----------------------------------
Stupid writes:


I already said. It was more than twice the price of the Unisaur.
It is *not*
worth it.
--------------------------------
Hey Stupid, what's the cost of an E/R visit for a table saw cut
injury?

What's the cost of the follow-up medical care including the physical
therapy?

My guess is $5,000 doesn't begin to cover the costs.

Depending on your medical coverage, the co-pay on $5K could cover the
cost of several SawStops.

Lew

In article om,
says...

On 2011-10-09 10:47:47 -0400, "J. Clarke" said:

But Edison also did not lobby for legislation that required all other
forms of light to be replaced with his electric lights--he was content
to let the market take its course.

Not so fast, Bunky...

http://techrights.org/2010/09/03/pat...e-icon-shamed/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_...s#Current_wars

Bunk-y, do learn to read the crap you link before you use it in support
of your argument.

On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:08:36 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
still admire and like the SawStop. When it comes to my safety politics
and ill feelings don't factor in. If I buy a new saw it will most
likely a SawStop.

I agree with your outlook and also feel that safety is paramount
within reason. The Sawstop cabinet saw table top is too high for me to
operate comfortably so unfortunately it's not a saw I'd consider. I
inquired as to the possibility of lowering one of their saws and was
told that the internal mechanism didn't allow enough room for
lowering. So, when I'm again ready to buy, it will be one of General's
'Access' tablesaws which is lowered for people who have to sit, like
to sit or happen to be of shorter stature.

On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 22:56:43 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:
story, were all complete idiots or all paid by the SawStop people to support
them. I am sure the people here are all better informed what actually
happened than any stupid jurors could possibly be.

Par for the course, you know ****. That fact is that it's a lawyers
job to take an existing lawsuit and fashion an argument that logically
appears to fit that case. Along with a measure of induced sympathy,
stupid or not, jurors often find for a plaintiff.

The American justice system makes it too easy to sue someone. That has
advantages and disadvantages. Jurors are required to rule on the case
at hand and are not legally responsible if a particular decision has
wide ranging repercussions ~ which will or is about to happen with
SawStop and will also be exacerbated by the insurance industry in an
effort to protect themselves.

On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:30:12 -0700 (PDT), Hoosierpopi
No, it's us. We have decided so with purchase after purchase of low-
cost saws from HFT, etc. When better quality, safer alternatives were
available for twice the price and maybe more.

And *that* is the story of the entire North American market with the
bulk of it's manufacturing and services contracted somewhere overseas
or out of country. Good for the lifestyle of current generations, not
so good for soon to be future generations.

On 10/8/2011 11:31 AM, wrote:
On 08 Oct 2011 14:42:57 GMT, wrote:

The ridiculously frivolous suit of an ignorant laborer injured because of
stupidity has been upheld at the Appellate Court:
http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opin...-1824P-01A.pdf

As Mark Twain and others have said, "First, we shoot all the lawyers"

Guilty parties he
1. Whoever removed the blade guard - I can rip boards with the blade
guard in place. The things that requre removal of the guard (rabbet
on a flooring transition piece) are so infrequent tha I have to stop
and think about how the guard is removed.
2. The injured employee for being stupid (using a saw without a blade
guard). Unfortunately, our society makes "stupidity" a suitable trait
for litigation: blame anyone but me.
3. The employer for not buying a SawStop shop saw for use on a job
site - physically impractical if not impossible. The contractor
version of the SawStop is a recent addition to the line.
4. The "expert witness" who obviously has a monetary interest in this
case (publicly faulting the competition). His connection with a
competing product automatically makes him a biased witness and his
testimon should not have been allowed. That would have forced the
blame back to parties 1 or 3, none of whom have pockets as deep as
Ryobi and the lawyers would have gotten their cut of a much smaller
pie. If the injured employee removed the guard, he has no case.

I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

John

Just a minor aside. We bought one of the SawStop machines for another
shop . It is underpowered when compared to the same horsepower Delta
cabinet saw. By underpowered, I mean that you can easily push material
too fast and force the motor to bog and slow - reminiscent of cutting on
the typical contractor type saw. I have only used the thing 2 or 3
times and really don't care for the low power. I have suggested to that
shop manager that he contact them about the power situation as it
seriously compromises the saw's usability in my opinion, he has not seen
fit to do so.

They are on stop block number 7 or 8. Yes, there is a switch to prevent
this happening in wet wood, etc. Once a hidden nail, once a tin foil
backing on some 1/4" MDF, once a fella using an aluminum piece as a push
stick (he swears he didn't touch the blade). once cutting pressure
treated material (too much moisture). This is right at $100 per block.
Yes it does stop the blade and machine RIGHT NOW - it will scare the
tar out of ya they tell me.

At this point I am happy with my old Delta.

On 10/9/2011 9:56 PM, Josepi wrote:
The twelve jurors, that were present during the testimonies of the
``real`` story, were all complete idiots or all paid by the SawStop
people to support them. I am sure the people here are all better
informed what actually happened than any stupid jurors could possibly be.

American justice is just a crock anyway. Why bother.

----------
"Han" wrote in message ...

The ridiculously frivolous suit of an ignorant laborer injured because of
stupidity has been upheld at the Appellate Court:
http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opin...-1824P-01A.pdf




You are a classic example of stupid is as stupit does.

On 10/9/2011 11:19 PM, Hoosierpopi wrote:
"Osorio largely relied on the testimony of his witness, Dr.
Stephen Gass, inventor of "SawStop,"

Neat trick. You invent something, can't sell it to the industry, so
you get people to sue in hopes of forcing industry to adopt your
product/design. Then again, it just may have been a slick attorney
that turned Gass onto this idea. We may start seeing Ambulance Chasers
advertising on This Old House!

Ah, America . . .



Really no need to sell it to the industry, SawStop is selling more than
it's share of TS's by a wide margin.

On 10/9/2011 7:10 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:37:06 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/9/2011 4:31 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 12:16:38 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/9/2011 10:27 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:40:08 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/8/2011 7:53 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:56:37 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/8/2011 3:18 PM, HeyBub wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 1:50 pm, Gerald wrote:

This may be the beginning of the end of reasonably priced table saws
for occasional users like me. I still have my hand saws.

They're dangerous, too. A common injury back in the day was
"carpenter's thumb". That's where the saw jumped the kerf and bit
into the back of the thumb and cut the tendon. That left the poor sod
with a thumb that could be flexed but not straightened.

There simply will not be an overnight change in the entire saw
market. If and when the new regs roll out it will mean that only new
tools would be required to conform to the new and improved safety
regulations. Used tools will still be available, though the prices of
those will probably rise a bit as well. The regulations would have a
date of compliance set at some point in the future, which will allow
people to start hoarding existing saws, new and used.

Take a gamble - buy a dozen hobbiest tablesaws from Harbor Freight.
Shouldn't cost more than a few hundred and the potential payback might
be double that...if you live that long.


Look for instructions on the web on how to defeat SawStop, thereby saving
$100 or so on the false positives.

Defeating the required SawStop will be as common as removing the blade guard
and might be as simple as clipping a couple of wires...


Contact SawStop and ask them how many false stops that they have not
helped the owner out with. From what I have always heard by those that
had a story to go with the situation, SawStop always provided the
replacement parts.

Do they fork over $125 for a new blade, too?

Not sure but I recall some one saying that one must take responsibility
for ones mistakes.

Mistake? We were talking about a false-trip. The "mistake" is the SawStop's.

...or are you talking about the mistake being buying a SawStop? ;-)

I am thinking more in lines of, what if whose fault it cannot be proven
one way or the other. Perhaps the blade was touched and it was not
actually a false trip. It is not uncommon for a manufacturer to give
the customer the benefit of the doubt and replace parts but not accessories.

In that case, how can it *ever* be proven, short of blood dripping off the
mechanism.

Consider the fact that you CAN touch the spinning blade and set off the
trigger and you can touch the spinning blade with out harm on regular
saw. If you touch the mid side of the blade there are no teeth. There
are no guarantees either way but it is in Sawstops best interest to
assist in questionable incidents but not take full responsibility.

The fact is that they have no way of knowing. Any replacement program is
guesswork, at best.

Exactly, which gives the consumer the benefit of the doubt when on the
numerous occasions SawStop participated in the replacement of the TS parts.




Personally I don't know if they have replaced the blades in the past or
not but the early owners that were having false triggers were happily
reporting the participating by Sawstop to remedy the situation. They
seemed content with the steps taken by Sawstop.

Until you own the product you really can't **** and moan about what
might or might not be a fact about their customer service after the
sale. By all indicators that I have read a vast majority of the owners
are more than satisfied.

Nonsense. There is good reason I did *NOT* buy a SawStop.

Well you have to make you self feel good about you decisions, every one
does. I choose not to predigest my decisions.

On 10/9/2011 7:46 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 20:21:48 -0400, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Nonsense. There is good reason I did *NOT* buy a SawStop.

Well, as long as you said that much, lets here it! : )

I already said. It was more than twice the price of the Unisaur. It is *not*
worth it.

That was then, Can you still buy the old style Unisaw?





I'm planning ot purchase in the spring, or sooner if I run accross
something. I have been leaning toward the Unisaur.

An x5 is a good choice. The new style is stupid expensive.


Agreed.

On 10/10/2011 12:28 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz AKA: Stupid
-------------------------------------
Stupid writes:

Nonsense. There is good reason I did *NOT* buy a SawStop.

-----------------------------
"Bill" writes:

Well, as long as you said that much, lets here it! : )
----------------------------------
Stupid writes:


I already said. It was more than twice the price of the Unisaur.
It is *not*
worth it.
--------------------------------
Hey Stupid, what's the cost of an E/R visit for a table saw cut
injury?

What's the cost of the follow-up medical care including the physical
therapy?

My guess is $5,000 doesn't begin to cover the costs.

Depending on your medical coverage, the co-pay on $5K could cover the
cost of several SawStops.

Lew




Be nice Lew. ;~) I was one of those "it won't happen to me" people 20
years ago. Then I learned the hard way and my math skills became much
better.

On 10/8/2011 3:02 PM, Leon wrote:
On 10/8/2011 11:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:31 pm, wrote:

I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Supreme Court will overturn
it. I'm glad the suit happened, though, and got so much attention.
The major tool companies have had plenty of time to start retooling
and upgrading safety since SawStop came on the scene. They've known
which way the wind was blowing and something needed to be shaken
loose.

R

Totally agree! I am not too happy about SawStop pushing their product
through government intervention however I am equally unhappy about all
the other other manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too
high a price to pay.


The manufacturer already provides guards and splitters that provide a
margin of safety that, If used by the operator, would eliminate 99%+ of
all injuries, and has no false triggers that cost hundreds of dollars in
one-shot parts and blades each time they occur.

These are the saws that the consumer is buying.

Maybe each new saw sold by anybody should have a Sawstop Brochure and
price list attached to it, so it will be plain that the purchaser knew
they had an option and they chose otherwise.

Stuart

On 10/9/2011 7:08 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:22:18 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/9/2011 4:29 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 12:28:40 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 10/9/2011 10:11 AM, Jim Northey wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Oct 9, 1:22 am, wrote:

Ever try to cut dampish wood on a saw-stop equipped saw???
Gets real expensive and real difficult real fast.

You can't beat stupid. Make something idiotproof and they just come up
with a better idiot, and another dozen lawyers.

This has been gone over before and you're still spreading
disinformation.

From SawStop's FAQ:

6. Will cutting green or “wet” wood activate the SawStop safety
system?
SawStop saws cut most wet wood without a problem. However, if the wood
is very green or wet (for example, wet enough to spray a mist when
cutting), or if the wood is both wet and pressure treated, then the
wood may be sufficiently conductive to trigger the brake. Accordingly,
the best practice is to dry wet or green wood before cutting by
standing it inside and apart from other wood for about one day. You
can also cut wet pressure treated wood and other conductive material
by placing the saw in bypass mode to deactivate the safety system.

And after activating the bypass, some one then cuts a finger off . Do they
now sue the makers of Sawstop for telling them to turn off a feature that
they pushed through to stop that from happening ?
Jim



Not at all, the operator turned the system off. He pays the stupid tax
and hopefully he has insurance to cover the thousands of dollars that
his mistake just cost him.

That theory doesn't work for guards. Why should it for the bypass?

What theory?

"He pays the stupid tax". No, we all pay his "stupid tax" whenever someone
wins such a lawsuit.

We all pay the stupid tax when some one cuts them selves and uses
their/our insurance to pay for the repair. Rates go up,



Not all operations performed on a TS can be done with factory guards.
It is a correct procedure to remove the guard for
certain procedures.

Sure (how does SS do DADOs?), but the suit *was* about removed guards
(fence?). Damned fools will still hurt themselves.

SS does dado's the same way as it does with a standard blade and with
the guard off but it will still stop the dado blades if you touch them.

On 10/9/2011 11:30 PM, Hoosierpopi wrote:
On Oct 8, 3:02 pm, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

"manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too high a price
to pay."

No, it's us. We have decided so with purchase after purchase of low-
cost saws from HFT, etc. When better quality, safer alternatives were
available for twice the price and maybe more.


Cant agree with that statement. The SawStop is not low cost and it is
being well supported by the public. The other manufacturers are
reluctantly adding safety devices only as a result of the popularity and
success of the SawStop. Other manufacturers have had at least 10 years
to come up with their own safety devices since the introduction of the
SawStop. I bet they were thinking that SawStop would fail and then it
would be business as usual. Surprise!

We paid low prices for saws because most of the time a lower price saw
from Taiwan was equal to or better than domestic. In a world market you
have to be competitive, labor unions and over paid salaries are not your
friends.

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 9, 5:44 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 9, 8:14 am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Try building a PT privacy fence.
A. PT wood is VERY wet
B. Many times pickets have to be cut to fit
C. The solution, I suppose, is a circular saw.

Now that must have been a difficult thought process! I don't even
use my good circular saw on PT wood - the wood doesn't warrant it.

Uh, how do you get it to fit, gnaw the wood? Use a hand saw? Forget
that idea and erect chain-link? Screw the whole thing and let your
chickens go free-range?

Notice the comparative modifier in there? I use my beater saw to cut
beater wood. It's the same one I use to cut concrete with a diamond
blade if I don't have the cutoff saw. It's an old Makita 5007 that
refuses to die no matter how much I torture the poor sucker. The
thing hates me with a passion and I reciprocate the sentiment.

I take "beater saw" to mean one that will stand up to great abuse. Clearly,
that does not include a SawStop model.


So the SawStop - indeed any new saw - won't affect you at all. Got
it.

All it takes for bad men to triumph is for good men to do nothing. But you
and I share a sentiment: You cling to your 5007 to avoid a SawStop while I
stockpile current generation models.

Steve wrote:
On 2011-10-09 08:14:13 -0400, "HeyBub" said:

Try building a PT privacy fence.
A. PT wood is VERY wet
B. Many times pickets have to be cut to fit
C. The solution, I suppose, is a circular saw.

OR, turn off the sensing circuit.

Rule of systemantic (or why "systems" fight back): Fail-Safe systems often
fail by failing to fail safe.

Leon wrote:
Was the "bypass" option on the first saws, or was it added to
later production because of the "false triggering" problem??

It has always been there, the designer was an avid woodworker so he
knew what would be needed. Additionally I inquired about 10 years
ago before the saw was available as to whether the stop would engage
after the saw motor is turned off, it does.

Wonder what happens if you're using the saw in a light rain or heavy fog?
What if you spill your beer on the work? How does it function if you're
using your saw to cut meat?

A hush falls over the crowd...

Dave wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:30:12 -0700 (PDT), Hoosierpopi
No, it's us. We have decided so with purchase after purchase of low-
cost saws from HFT, etc. When better quality, safer alternatives were
available for twice the price and maybe more.

And *that* is the story of the entire North American market with the
bulk of it's manufacturing and services contracted somewhere overseas
or out of country. Good for the lifestyle of current generations, not
so good for soon to be future generations.

The United States is the world's leading manufacturer. No other country is
even close.

"Jobs" are not part of a zero-sum game. Jobs that move overseas do not, in
the aggregate, mean fewer jobs here. If anything, jobs that move to, say,
China mean MORE jobs are created here than are lost.

Hoosierpopi wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:31 pm, wrote:
On 08 Oct 2011 14:42:57 GMT, Han wrote:


I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

John

Hard for that to happen as the issue was not raised in the appeal. The
Court cannot rule on aspects of the rial not raisd in the appeals
themselves. (I think, not a lawyer spokesperson)

Right. Appellate courts only rule on matters of law. The trial-court jury
determines matters of fact.

On Oct 10, 8:57*am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Wonder what happens if you're using the saw in a light rain or heavy fog?
What if you spill your beer on the work? How does it function if you're
using your saw to cut meat?

The sad thing is that those are real questions about real issues for
you.

A hush falls over the crowd...

Now if only that hush would fall over your posting.

Replying to your other inane post:
Beater often equals appropriate. A beater is the item that you don't
care about as much, not that it's crap. I don't own any crap tools, I
give them away or donate them to Habitat and they make the choice
whether to use them or sell them. My beater Makita has been with me
since ~1994. It has been downgraded honorably due to it's long term,
slightly annoying service. I still hate it, but it does what it asks
and only makes _me_ complain. My beater bicycle is worth more than
your 1990 Chrysler soccer mom van, but it's my beater bike and I don't
worry as much leaving it locked up somewhere or letting someone borrow
it.

You know there's another possibility for you - buy a Festool track saw
instead of the SawStop. They're a safer saw with a retractable blade
and a riving knife, but I'm sure you'll figure out a way to **** up
the saw and remove them.

See? There's always hope and there are always alternatives.

R

Leon wrote:

SawStop turns even an economy saw into a "premium priced" saw.

That is why you would disable the safety feature???

No, I would avoid it altogether.


And as far as whether you consider it a premium priced saw or not, I
don't think it does. That is strictly a personal preference call. If
you don't want to spend the money, buy a used saw or buy the saw you
want now in the event that this is required in the future. Or wait
and see.

Answer me this: Wouldn't a sliding table result in the same number - or
close thereto - of reduced accidents as a SawStop?

How many manufacturers provide a crosscut for their economy saws - even at
extra cost?

Here's one for a Delta that costs as much as a SawStop
http://www.amazon.com/DELTA-34-555-S.../dp/B00002235P

Or, you can build your own for ten bucks
http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/howto_crosscut.htm

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 06:35:57 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/9/2011 9:56 PM, Josepi wrote:
The twelve jurors, that were present during the testimonies of the
``real`` story, were all complete idiots or all paid by the SawStop
people to support them. I am sure the people here are all better
informed what actually happened than any stupid jurors could possibly be.

American justice is just a crock anyway. Why bother.

----------
"Han" wrote in message ...

The ridiculously frivolous suit of an ignorant laborer injured because of
stupidity has been upheld at the Appellate Court:
http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opin...-1824P-01A.pdf

You are a classic example of stupid is as stupit does.

Note the witl^Hness for the ignorant worker, Dr. Stephen Gass.

Could he be angry that Ryobi didn't follow through with their contract
with him?

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On Oct 10, 1:56*am, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 22:56:43 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:

story, were all complete idiots or all paid by the SawStop people to support
them. I am sure the people here are all better informed *what actually
happened than any stupid jurors could possibly be.

Par for the course, you know ****. That fact is that it's a lawyers
job to take an existing lawsuit and fashion an argument that logically
appears to fit that case. Along with a measure of induced sympathy,
stupid or not, jurors often find for a plaintiff.

The American justice system makes it too easy to sue someone. That has
advantages and disadvantages. Jurors are required to rule on the case
at hand and are not legally responsible if a particular decision has
wide ranging repercussions ~ which will or is about to happen with
SawStop and will also be exacerbated by the insurance industry in an
effort to protect themselves.

I would love to see a YMBSM lawsuit designation attached to any
lawsuit before it goes through the courts. With the You Must Be
****ting Me designation a judge would quickly review a case and
determine if it's a nuisance/harassment/absurd case, and if so, apply
the YMBSM designation. The designation would be warning to the
plaintiff that if the case goes against them, they will be held liable
for all court costs, including the defendant's legal fees, and treble
the requested damages. One third of the treble damages would go to
the defendant, one third to the court, and one third to charity. The
losing plaintiff would be able to claim the charitable contribution on
his tax return so he wouldn't feel like he got nothing for his
efforts.

R

On 10/10/2011 8:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 06:35:57 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/9/2011 9:56 PM, Josepi wrote:
The twelve jurors, that were present during the testimonies of the
``real`` story, were all complete idiots or all paid by the SawStop
people to support them. I am sure the people here are all better
informed what actually happened than any stupid jurors could possibly be.

American justice is just a crock anyway. Why bother.

----------
"Han" wrote in message ...

The ridiculously frivolous suit of an ignorant laborer injured because of
stupidity has been upheld at the Appellate Court:
http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opin...-1824P-01A.pdf

You are a classic example of stupid is as stupit does.

Note the witl^Hness for the ignorant worker, Dr. Stephen Gass.

Could he be angry that Ryobi didn't follow through with their contract
with him?

Was there ever a contract with them? Angry? Why on earth wpuld he be
angry?

On 10/10/2011 8:01 AM, HeyBub wrote:
Dave wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:30:12 -0700 (PDT), Hoosierpopi
No, it's us. We have decided so with purchase after purchase of low-
cost saws from HFT, etc. When better quality, safer alternatives were
available for twice the price and maybe more.

And *that* is the story of the entire North American market with the
bulk of it's manufacturing and services contracted somewhere overseas
or out of country. Good for the lifestyle of current generations, not
so good for soon to be future generations.

The United States is the world's leading manufacturer. No other country is
even close.

"Jobs" are not part of a zero-sum game. Jobs that move overseas do not, in
the aggregate, mean fewer jobs here. If anything, jobs that move to, say,
China mean MORE jobs are created here than are lost.



If you take China out of the picture.

On 10/10/2011 5:50 AM, DanG wrote:

Just a minor aside. We bought one of the SawStop machines for another
shop . It is underpowered when compared to the same horsepower Delta
cabinet saw. By underpowered, I mean that you can easily push material
too fast and force the motor to bog and slow - reminiscent of cutting on
the typical contractor type saw. I have only used the thing 2 or 3 times
and really don't care for the low power. I have suggested to that shop
manager that he contact them about the power situation as it seriously
compromises the saw's usability in my opinion, he has not seen fit to do
so.

They are on stop block number 7 or 8. Yes, there is a switch to prevent
this happening in wet wood, etc. Once a hidden nail, once a tin foil
backing on some 1/4" MDF, once a fella using an aluminum piece as a push
stick (he swears he didn't touch the blade). once cutting pressure
treated material (too much moisture). This is right at $100 per block.
Yes it does stop the blade and machine RIGHT NOW - it will scare the tar
out of ya they tell me.

At this point I am happy with my old Delta.


No fair, Dude ... interjecting real experience into an argument based on
hypothetical bickering.

For shame ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 10/9/2011 11:19 PM, Hoosierpopi wrote:
"Osorio largely relied on the testimony of his witness, Dr.
Stephen Gass, inventor of "SawStop,"

Neat trick. You invent something, can't sell it to the industry, so
you get people to sue in hopes of forcing industry to adopt your
product/design. Then again, it just may have been a slick attorney
that turned Gass onto this idea. We may start seeing Ambulance Chasers
advertising on This Old House!

Ah, America . . .



Really no need to sell it to the industry, SawStop is selling more than
it's share of TS's by a wide margin.

If there's "no need to sell it to the industry" then why is there a need
to regulate the industry into buying it?

On 10/10/2011 6:56 AM, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
On 10/8/2011 3:02 PM, Leon wrote:
On 10/8/2011 11:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:31 pm, wrote:

I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Supreme Court will overturn
it. I'm glad the suit happened, though, and got so much attention.
The major tool companies have had plenty of time to start retooling
and upgrading safety since SawStop came on the scene. They've known
which way the wind was blowing and something needed to be shaken
loose.

R

Totally agree! I am not too happy about SawStop pushing their product
through government intervention however I am equally unhappy about all
the other other manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too
high a price to pay.


The manufacturer already provides guards and splitters that provide a
margin of safety that, If used by the operator, would eliminate 99%+ of
all injuries, and has no false triggers that cost hundreds of dollars in
one-shot parts and blades each time they occur.

These are the saws that the consumer is buying.

Maybe each new saw sold by anybody should have a Sawstop Brochure and
price list attached to it, so it will be plain that the purchaser knew
they had an option and they chose otherwise.

Stuart



I think the guards suck, they simply prevent many procedures from being
done on a TS with them installed. Kinda tough to cut a board to length
that needs to be say 60" long with a guard attached, or cut dado's, cove
moldings, 1/4" wide rips, etc.

BUT I think you are spot on with the notion that the manufacturer offers
the SawStop option and there can no longer be any law suits against
manufacturers in this regard.

On 10/10/2011 7:52 AM, HeyBub wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 9, 5:44 pm, wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 9, 8:14 am, wrote:

Try building a PT privacy fence.
A. PT wood is VERY wet
B. Many times pickets have to be cut to fit
C. The solution, I suppose, is a circular saw.

Now that must have been a difficult thought process! I don't even
use my good circular saw on PT wood - the wood doesn't warrant it.

Uh, how do you get it to fit, gnaw the wood? Use a hand saw? Forget
that idea and erect chain-link? Screw the whole thing and let your
chickens go free-range?

Notice the comparative modifier in there? I use my beater saw to cut
beater wood. It's the same one I use to cut concrete with a diamond
blade if I don't have the cutoff saw. It's an old Makita 5007 that
refuses to die no matter how much I torture the poor sucker. The
thing hates me with a passion and I reciprocate the sentiment.

I take "beater saw" to mean one that will stand up to great abuse. Clearly,
that does not include a SawStop model.

No by definition a beater is one that you don't care what happens to it,
no great loss if it gets torn up.

On 10/10/2011 7:57 AM, HeyBub wrote:
Leon wrote:
Was the "bypass" option on the first saws, or was it added to
later production because of the "false triggering" problem??

It has always been there, the designer was an avid woodworker so he
knew what would be needed. Additionally I inquired about 10 years
ago before the saw was available as to whether the stop would engage
after the saw motor is turned off, it does.

Wonder what happens if you're using the saw in a light rain or heavy fog?
What if you spill your beer on the work? How does it function if you're
using your saw to cut meat?

A hush falls over the crowd...



What if you are stupid enough to ask such questions???

On 10/10/2011 8:35 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If there's "no need to sell it to the industry" then why is there a need
to regulate the industry into buying it?

After beaucoup years, we _finally_ agree on something! g

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

I'm not a patent lawyer, but don't the major tablesaw manufacturers only
have to delay things for 20 years or so until the patents expire?


--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

On 10/10/2011 10:15 AM, Larry W wrote:
I'm not a patent lawyer, but don't the major tablesaw manufacturers only
have to delay things for 20 years or so until the patents expire?

I believe it's still 17 years ... but that can be changed by lobby
pressure on clowngressman, as they are doing with copyrights.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

In article ,
Swingman wrote:
On 10/10/2011 10:15 AM, Larry W wrote:
I'm not a patent lawyer, but don't the major tablesaw manufacturers only
have to delay things for 20 years or so until the patents expire?

I believe it's still 17 years ... but that can be changed by lobby
pressure on clowngressman, as they are doing with copyrights.


Man, that's a scary thought. Funny how Congress can stall for months over
a health care or budget bill, but when their high-$$ campaign contributors
want to get something done...

--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

In article , Leon
lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

The SawStop is not low cost and it is
being well supported by the public.

In my brief experience working retail sales of WW equipment, the
"public" is not buying Sawstops.

Institutions are buying Sawstops, to reduce their liability exposure.

--
Woodworking and more at http://www.woodenwabbits.com

In article ,
says...

I'm not a patent lawyer, but don't the major tablesaw manufacturers only
have to delay things for 20 years or so until the patents expire?

Sorta kinda. Gass is a patent lawyer--he knows the tricks--when the
intial patent expires he can patent some minor "improvement" that if
worded carefully enough can still give him control.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:37:05 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/10/2011 6:56 AM, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
On 10/8/2011 3:02 PM, Leon wrote:
On 10/8/2011 11:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:31 pm, wrote:

I predict that the Supreme Court will rule along the lines of the
testimony of the expert witness was biased and thus not acceptable.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Supreme Court will overturn
it. I'm glad the suit happened, though, and got so much attention.
The major tool companies have had plenty of time to start retooling
and upgrading safety since SawStop came on the scene. They've known
which way the wind was blowing and something needed to be shaken
loose.

R

Totally agree! I am not too happy about SawStop pushing their product
through government intervention however I am equally unhappy about all
the other other manufacturers that have decided that more safety is too
high a price to pay.


The manufacturer already provides guards and splitters that provide a
margin of safety that, If used by the operator, would eliminate 99%+ of
all injuries, and has no false triggers that cost hundreds of dollars in
one-shot parts and blades each time they occur.

These are the saws that the consumer is buying.

Maybe each new saw sold by anybody should have a Sawstop Brochure and
price list attached to it, so it will be plain that the purchaser knew
they had an option and they chose otherwise.

Stuart



I think the guards suck, they simply prevent many procedures from being
done on a TS with them installed. Kinda tough to cut a board to length
that needs to be say 60" long with a guard attached, or cut dado's, cove
moldings, 1/4" wide rips, etc.

Guards are easily sidestepped, too. Place your hand in the saw's path
and it will slide right under the guard. And you're right about the
splitters stopping dadoing, coves, rabbets, and the like. Preferred
are the top-mounted guards with dust collection and rip guides in the
zero-clearance inserts. Both are easily removed and installed so it
takes just a minute extra to set up for your specialty cuts.


BUT I think you are spot on with the notion that the manufacturer offers
the SawStop option and there can no longer be any law suits against
manufacturers in this regard.

Hah! What an optimist. While it means they shouldn't continue, you'd
better believe that the lawsuits will not stop. Slow, maybe, but stop?
No way. There are far too many ambulance-chasing speaking weasels and
stupid, greedy people out there.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:27:27 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/10/2011 8:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 06:35:57 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/9/2011 9:56 PM, Josepi wrote:
The twelve jurors, that were present during the testimonies of the
``real`` story, were all complete idiots or all paid by the SawStop
people to support them. I am sure the people here are all better
informed what actually happened than any stupid jurors could possibly be.

American justice is just a crock anyway. Why bother.

----------
"Han" wrote in message ...

The ridiculously frivolous suit of an ignorant laborer injured because of
stupidity has been upheld at the Appellate Court:
http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opin...-1824P-01A.pdf

You are a classic example of stupid is as stupit does.

Note the witl^Hness for the ignorant worker, Dr. Stephen Gass.

Could he be angry that Ryobi didn't follow through with their contract
with him?

Was there ever a contract with them? Angry? Why on earth wpuld he be
angry?

Negotiations failed (supposedly over a typo) and he lost them as
clients. Why would he be mad? Go figure. My guess is that they had
premature buyer's remorse since he failed to cover liability issues.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

Nobody needs to sell it to the industry.

The medical insurance industry wants to cut their losses and your
upcoming tax dollars to pay for idiots that operate TSs carelessly and
a government issued "TS Operator's permit"

Welcome to free Government Health Care!

Shall we apply the same talk about the idiots that fight in wars and
should be responsible for their own injuries?


---------------
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...
If there's "no need to sell it to the industry" then why is there a
need
to regulate the industry into buying it?