On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:28:55 -0500, the infamous "Mike Marlow"
scrawled the following:


"Nonny" wrote in message
...

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but of
equal relevance here. Grin

Electricity explained
I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly,
it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
110
comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
Since
most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
up
and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
and
up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
side only gives you 110 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
instance, it
will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
then
turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
down
sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just


Finally! An authoritative explanation of all those things that have been so
confusing for so long!

Well, all I want to know is how do they get the electricity past that
extreme barrier called the Equator? Normally, things from either
hemisphere don't mix. Is this magic or science which allows 'lectrons
from Oz to come up here?

--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents ****-Poor Performance

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:12:03 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:40:43 -0600, the infamous
(Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:

In article ,
dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 11, 12:01 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

That's a big assumption. The fact is that we use light to see.
Well, I can assert that in my case (the only one that actually matters
to me ) it's not an assumption at all. I see fine using the same
wattage-rated bulb in 130V version as the 120V and as long as that is so
it's a win if they last longer...

Then why don't you use a 60W in stead of a 100W, for example?

Because the difference in a 60W @120V wouldn't be enough for a location
that has a 100W in it, either. The substitution is as earlier
stated--simply 130V of whatever I'd use 120V in that location and I'm
good to go.

A 100 W 130V bulb operated at 120V has just about the same output as a 75W 120V
bulb. It's a wash on electricity cost, balanced against the cost difference
for the 130V bulbs, vs 120V ones. Plus the "convenience factor" of less
frequent bulb replacement. Drawback: the 130V bulbs give off a "yellower"
light than the 120V ones -- one may, or may not, notice it.

A 60W 120V bulb has somewhat more output than a 75W 130V bulb at 120V.
The 120v bulb is the _clear_ winner in this case. bulb is less expensive,
gives off more light, and uses less electricity. The -only- advantage to
the 130V bulb is less-frequent replacement.

At lower wattages (60W@130/40W@120 and 40W@130/25W@120), the cost advantage
also goes to the rated 120V bulb. Again, the -only- advantage to the 130V
bulb is less-frequent replacement.

Why don't ALL OF YOU stop wasting electricity and get rid of the
ghastly yellow lighting at the same time? CFLs are the way to go.

Speaking of ghastly, CFLs define the term. Yuck! Wouldn't own one.

http://fwd4.me/83K ULA lights have worked well for me so far, and I
bought a dozen. They're a nice cool white. Whatever you do, don't buy
Lights of America brand which Homey's Despot used to sell. I had
HORRIBLE experiences with their cheap crap.

My electric bill last month was $18 and change. The only incans I have
in the house are in the fridge, stove (no replacements available for
the two previous lamps), laundry room (130v Rough Service which was
here when I moved in and refuses to die), and a pair of Reveal bulbs
in the security light outside.

Get real. The reason you have an $18 bill has nothing to do with
CFLs. Hell, I'd put up with CFLs if they'd run my heat pump and water
heater.

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:28:59 -0600,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Dec 10, 9:36*pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
We bought a new house once and the contractor put in 130v bulbs.
Not he 115v ones we buy in the store - and run them on 120 or 125v.

Anyway - when we sold the house 11 years later we still had some of
the original bulbs.

Consider : *P=E*I * If E drops - the power drops. *The bulb runs cooler.
* * * * * * *P=E^2/R *or R = E^2/P * 130*130/100 *= 13*13 = 269 ohms hot.
* * * * * * *(rule of thumb 1/10 of hot = cold resistance or 27 ohms for
surges).
* * * * * * *I=P/E = 100/130 = .76 amps
* * Now - using the 130 bulb with 269 ohm filament and we run it at 120 :

* * * * * * * P (used) = 120*120/269 * *or 14400/269 = 53.53 watts.
* * * * * * * P=E*I * so I=P/E *I = 53/120 = .44 amps

You assume that the temparature, thus the resistance, of the filament
is the same at 130V as it is at 120V. This is certainly *not* true.
At 120V, the lower filament temperature not only will the bulb use
less power (though less than expected using your calculations) will
make the bulb less efficient (lumens per watt), costing you money too.

lower used wattage, longer life due to the derrating.

Much longer, yes. Bulb life is a function of something like the 16th
power of service voltage.

Eleventh power. not 16th. grin
a 5% decrease in voltage equates to an over 70% increase in bulb life.

I've heard everything in between too. I haven't seen any definitive
reference, though.

It's still not saving money, unless there
is a cost associated with replacement in addition to the bulb cost.


Depends on what you're measuring. grin

"Per lumen of light output", the de-rated bulb is more expensive to operate.

Generally light bulbs are used to make light.

If the de-rated output is 'adequate', and you're just looking at the cost of
operating "a bulb", the 130V bulb does save a little (circa 10%) operating
money. Plus a little more for the reduced replacement frequency. The only
_real_ advantage comes if the bulb is located somewhere where it is _hard_
to change -- i.e., with a significant 'labor' cost involved in performing
the replacement.

If can get by with less light, use a lower wattage bulb. If the bulb
is a PITA to get to, spend the money. It really is that simple.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:33:18 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:28:55 -0500, the infamous "Mike Marlow"
scrawled the following:


"Nonny" wrote in message
...

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but of
equal relevance here. Grin

Electricity explained
I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly,
it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
110
comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
Since
most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
up
and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
and
up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
side only gives you 110 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
instance, it
will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
then
turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
down
sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just


Finally! An authoritative explanation of all those things that have been so
confusing for so long!

Well, all I want to know is how do they get the electricity past that
extreme barrier called the Equator? Normally, things from either
hemisphere don't mix. Is this magic or science which allows 'lectrons
from Oz to come up here?

Maybe they use transformers at the equator. Which way do electrons
spin down there?

krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:33:18 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:28:55 -0500, the infamous "Mike Marlow"
scrawled the following:

"Nonny" wrote in message
...
"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but of
equal relevance here. Grin

Electricity explained
I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly,
it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
110
comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
Since
most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
up
and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
and
up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
side only gives you 110 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
instance, it
will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
then
turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
down
sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just

Finally! An authoritative explanation of all those things that have been so
confusing for so long!
Well, all I want to know is how do they get the electricity past that
extreme barrier called the Equator? Normally, things from either
hemisphere don't mix. Is this magic or science which allows 'lectrons
from Oz to come up here?

Maybe they use transformers at the equator. Which way do electrons
spin down there?
Simple. Opposite Poles attract.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 12:05:56 -0800, jo4hn
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:33:18 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:28:55 -0500, the infamous "Mike Marlow"
scrawled the following:

"Nonny" wrote in message
...
"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but of
equal relevance here. Grin

Electricity explained
I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly,
it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
110
comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
Since
most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
up
and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
and
up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
side only gives you 110 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
instance, it
will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
then
turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
down
sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just

Finally! An authoritative explanation of all those things that have been so
confusing for so long!
Well, all I want to know is how do they get the electricity past that
extreme barrier called the Equator? Normally, things from either
hemisphere don't mix. Is this magic or science which allows 'lectrons
from Oz to come up here?

Maybe they use transformers at the equator. Which way do electrons
spin down there?
Simple. Opposite Poles attract.

Must be why the Earth has an equatorial bulge.

"Stuart" wrote in message
...


Well, for a start there's the one in the bog/toilet/loo/little
boys room
or whatever term you use for the room where you take a **** :-)

Back yard, neighbor's tree, neighbor's gas tank, hotel sink?

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:23:40 -0800, "Nonny" wrote:


"Stuart" wrote in message
...


Well, for a start there's the one in the bog/toilet/loo/little
boys room
or whatever term you use for the room where you take a **** :-)

Back yard, neighbor's tree, neighbor's gas tank, hotel sink?

Indeed. More places CFLs aren't useful.

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:55:33 -0600, the infamous Swingman
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:


The scary part of that is that it means your 4 homes don't have any
kind of local grounding rods. It's all at the pole!

If I were you, I'd instantly run one.

Not necessarily so. AAMOF, I'm fairly certain that Leon's electrical
service entrance is grounded as per code, considering where he lives.

OK, I'll take your word for it.


From his description the problem he was experiencing is typically a
problem with the center tap connection on the secondary side of the
service transformer, and should have nothing to do with whether his
electric service entrance was grounded.

I saw this exact same scenario just recently when a new service
transformer was improperly installed that was serving the area I was
building in, and had just that day passed a rigorous final electrical
inspection, including, of course, the proper grounding of the electrical
service entrance.

Interesting. I'll bet the electrical company was embarrased.

I have my own personal transformer on the pole nearest my house, a
little guy not much larger in diameter than the pole it's attached to.
I lost power one day and went outside to see if one of the
on-transformer breakers had blown. I saw one of the 17kv lines on the
street, so I called immediately and they got a crew out here within
the hour. I was up and running again within 4 hours.

--
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen
to what the world tells you you ought to prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

"Larry Jaques" wrote

I have my own personal transformer on the pole nearest my house, a
little guy not much larger in diameter than the pole it's attached to.
I lost power one day and went outside to see if one of the
on-transformer breakers had blown. I saw one of the 17kv lines on the
street, so I called immediately and they got a crew out here within
the hour. I was up and running again within 4 hours.
--
I used to live across from an elementary school. As neighbors of the school,
we would keep an eye on the school and report any suspicious activity. We
called in a couple of things and some bad guys got caught.

Early one morning there was a big explosion. It rattled the windows for the
whole block. I had a friend who was staying over the night and was sleeping
on the couch in front of the window that faced the school. It knocked him
off the couch. We were surprised that the windows did not break.

After a number of frantic 911 calls, the cops raced to the scene and looked
everything over. They quickly found a charred, black feather under a power
pole. They looked up and saw a transformer with the side blown out of it. A
crow had got into the transformer and shorted it out. Needless to say, a
couple feathers was all that was left of the crow. Apparently this was a
common enough of a problem tht the police first check the power poles after
the report of an explosion.

They had to shut the power down for the whole neighborhood for about six
hours. And the utility company decided to start installing "crow resistant"
transformers". But only after this happened many times. Who was the bird
brain that didn't make the transformers "crow resistant" in the first place?

On 12/15/09 6:22 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote

I have my own personal transformer on the pole nearest my house, a
little guy not much larger in diameter than the pole it's attached to.
I lost power one day and went outside to see if one of the
on-transformer breakers had blown. I saw one of the 17kv lines on the
street, so I called immediately and they got a crew out here within
the hour. I was up and running again within 4 hours.
--
I used to live across from an elementary school. As neighbors of the school,
we would keep an eye on the school and report any suspicious activity. We
called in a couple of things and some bad guys got caught.

Early one morning there was a big explosion. It rattled the windows for the
whole block. I had a friend who was staying over the night and was sleeping
on the couch in front of the window that faced the school. It knocked him
off the couch. We were surprised that the windows did not break.

After a number of frantic 911 calls, the cops raced to the scene and looked
everything over. They quickly found a charred, black feather under a power
pole. They looked up and saw a transformer with the side blown out of it. A
crow had got into the transformer and shorted it out. Needless to say, a
couple feathers was all that was left of the crow. Apparently this was a
common enough of a problem tht the police first check the power poles after
the report of an explosion.

They had to shut the power down for the whole neighborhood for about six
hours. And the utility company decided to start installing "crow resistant"
transformers". But only after this happened many times. Who was the bird
brain that didn't make the transformers "crow resistant" in the first place?

It isn't just birds, I have personally seen a raccoon and a squirrel
that got
fried on transformers in two separate incidents.

The coon, was still alive, but rather disoriented.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in
message ...

"Larry Jaques" wrote

I have my own personal transformer on the pole nearest my
house, a
little guy not much larger in diameter than the pole it's
attached to.
I lost power one day and went outside to see if one of the
on-transformer breakers had blown. I saw one of the 17kv lines
on the
street, so I called immediately and they got a crew out here
within
the hour. I was up and running again within 4 hours.
--
I used to live across from an elementary school. As neighbors of
the school, we would keep an eye on the school and report any
suspicious activity. We called in a couple of things and some
bad guys got caught.

Early one morning there was a big explosion. It rattled the
windows for the whole block. I had a friend who was staying over
the night and was sleeping on the couch in front of the window
that faced the school. It knocked him off the couch. We were
surprised that the windows did not break.

After a number of frantic 911 calls, the cops raced to the scene
and looked everything over. They quickly found a charred, black
feather under a power pole. They looked up and saw a transformer
with the side blown out of it. A crow had got into the
transformer and shorted it out. Needless to say, a couple
feathers was all that was left of the crow. Apparently this was
a common enough of a problem tht the police first check the
power poles after the report of an explosion.

They had to shut the power down for the whole neighborhood for
about six hours. And the utility company decided to start
installing "crow resistant" transformers". But only after this
happened many times. Who was the bird brain that didn't make the
transformers "crow resistant" in the first place?

One day, during my college years, I was walking back to the
married student housing building from class. It was along a
fairly busy street in KC. As I walked under a power pole, with
transformer on it, there was a very gentle "fwwuummppp," sound,
followed by a cascade of boiling oil falling onto the sidewalk.
I'd just passed the pole and was not even splattered, though there
were oil spots on the concrete within a couple feet of where I was
standing.

I guess it just wasn't my time, and somehow God wanted me back at
work rodding out clogged toilets with my electrical fish tape.

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:33:00 -0500, the infamous FrozenNorth
scrawled the following:

On 12/15/09 6:22 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote

I have my own personal transformer on the pole nearest my house, a
little guy not much larger in diameter than the pole it's attached to.
I lost power one day and went outside to see if one of the
on-transformer breakers had blown. I saw one of the 17kv lines on the
street, so I called immediately and they got a crew out here within
the hour. I was up and running again within 4 hours.
--
I used to live across from an elementary school. As neighbors of the school,
we would keep an eye on the school and report any suspicious activity. We
called in a couple of things and some bad guys got caught.

Early one morning there was a big explosion. It rattled the windows for the
whole block. I had a friend who was staying over the night and was sleeping
on the couch in front of the window that faced the school. It knocked him
off the couch. We were surprised that the windows did not break.

After a number of frantic 911 calls, the cops raced to the scene and looked
everything over. They quickly found a charred, black feather under a power
pole. They looked up and saw a transformer with the side blown out of it. A
crow had got into the transformer and shorted it out. Needless to say, a
couple feathers was all that was left of the crow. Apparently this was a
common enough of a problem tht the police first check the power poles after
the report of an explosion.

They had to shut the power down for the whole neighborhood for about six
hours. And the utility company decided to start installing "crow resistant"
transformers". But only after this happened many times. Who was the bird
brain that didn't make the transformers "crow resistant" in the first place?

Good question. Ditto the poles to which no bird perch board had been
added after eagles were getting blown up. The dumb birds tried to nest
in the insulators.


It isn't just birds, I have personally seen a raccoon and a squirrel
that got
fried on transformers in two separate incidents.

The coon, was still alive, but rather disoriented.

A few other, larger, animals find their way up there sometimes, too.
This one didn't blow the transformer, though. http://fwd4.me/8Y6

--
Every day above ground is a Good Day(tm).
-----------

"Stuart" wrote:

I'm rather glad we go in for underground cabling with large
transformers
serving a local area, at ground level, in secure cabinets, usually
fenced,
in the UK.

For the last 30+ years, residential developments have been built with
pad mount transformers and underground distribution; however, for most
of the 20th century, above ground distribution was the norm, thus
there is a lot of above ground still in existence.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Stuart" wrote:

I'm rather glad we go in for underground cabling with large transformers
serving a local area, at ground level, in secure cabinets, usually
fenced,
in the UK.

For the last 30+ years, residential developments have been built with pad
mount transformers and underground distribution; however, for most of the
20th century, above ground distribution was the norm, thus there is a lot
of above ground still in existence.

Lew

this is highly location dependent. maybe in your area it is, but not around
my locale.

blanket statements usually aren't.

Yep - I have two (two-phase) High Voltage lines and a ground line
that branches off the highway my road attaches to. It is 12 to 1500 feet long
and has two transformers on it for me and I shared my line with the neighbor
who put in a shop. His house was powered off the highway.

I have two 'dummy' transformers - they are primary connected only as line
terminations while the house branches off and then the shop. Oddly,
both house and shop are on the same line. They are in the air and
has caused a lot of expense in tree trimming. Thankfully most of it was
by the power company and the rest by myself.

This county doesn't consider it an easement and tax the ground as tree property.
Martin



Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Stuart" wrote:

I'm rather glad we go in for underground cabling with large
transformers
serving a local area, at ground level, in secure cabinets, usually
fenced,
in the UK.

For the last 30+ years, residential developments have been built with
pad mount transformers and underground distribution; however, for most
of the 20th century, above ground distribution was the norm, thus
there is a lot of above ground still in existence.

Lew

On Dec 8, 1:28*am, sibosop wrote:
I realize this isn't exactly a woodworking question, but when I asked
about 220 V wiring for my shed in an earlier thread a lot of
electricians came out of the 'woodwork'.

So. I now have 220 V in my shed for my Walker Turner table saw. I
noticed that the plug from the saw only has two wires. The ground is
not connected. *My shed has a ground stake.
Should I run the ground wire to the saw? It certainly has a whooping
iron chasis.
Should I not do this?

(For those of you who helped me the last time, I finally decided to
get an electrician to wire it. He took the 220V
line from my 30 amp circuit for the house drier (I have a gas drier,
so I don't use it), ran #10 wires out to a 30 amp
breaker panel in the shed, split out two 110V circuits and a 20 amp
220v and put in a ground stake. This took him
6 hours. It would have taken me about 2 months).

thanks,
b

Brian - Truthfully now.

Did you ever imagine your straight-forward inquiry would return 151
(errrrr...152) responses :^} ??

In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.


Swingman wrote:


The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to the
cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:


The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.

In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.

Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Naaaw...we got the same bunch up here you got.

I'm not sure exactly who got that thinking in place,
but that's the way it's been for a very long time.

They are even taking down older aerial hook ups and
putting them back with underground.

We have had our share of hurricanes in the Carolina's
and the underground does pay off.

Swingman wrote:

Swingman wrote:



Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course?

In article ,
krw wrote:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:28:59 -0600,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Dec 10, 9:36*pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
We bought a new house once and the contractor put in 130v bulbs.
Not he 115v ones we buy in the store - and run them on 120 or 125v.

Anyway - when we sold the house 11 years later we still had some of
the original bulbs.

Consider : *P=E*I * If E drops - the power drops. *The bulb runs cooler.
* * * * * * *P=E^2/R *or R = E^2/P * 130*130/100 *= 13*13 = 269 ohms hot.
* * * * * * *(rule of thumb 1/10 of hot = cold resistance or 27 ohms for
surges).
* * * * * * *I=P/E = 100/130 = .76 amps
* * Now - using the 130 bulb with 269 ohm filament and we run it at 120 :

* * * * * * * P (used) = 120*120/269 * *or 14400/269 = 53.53 watts.
* * * * * * * P=E*I * so I=P/E *I = 53/120 = .44 amps

You assume that the temparature, thus the resistance, of the filament
is the same at 130V as it is at 120V. This is certainly *not* true.
At 120V, the lower filament temperature not only will the bulb use
less power (though less than expected using your calculations) will
make the bulb less efficient (lumens per watt), costing you money too.

lower used wattage, longer life due to the derrating.

Much longer, yes. Bulb life is a function of something like the 16th
power of service voltage.

Eleventh power. not 16th. grin
a 5% decrease in voltage equates to an over 70% increase in bulb life.

I've heard everything in between too. I haven't seen any definitive
reference, though.

I have. grin The '11th power' figure comes from a college dorm-mate.
He'd interned with GE in their lighting manufacturing operation. And his
masters thesis was on the subject.


It's still not saving money, unless there
is a cost associated with replacement in addition to the bulb cost.


Depends on what you're measuring. grin

"Per lumen of light output", the de-rated bulb is more expensive to operate.

Generally light bulbs are used to make light.

yup. But many people (erroneously!) consider _only_ the cost 'per hour of
operation', in which case the de-rated bulb is _always_ less expensive _per_
_hour_ than the one operated as rated.

If the de-rated output is 'adequate', and you're just looking at the cost of
operating "a bulb", the 130V bulb does save a little (circa 10%) operating
money. Plus a little more for the reduced replacement frequency. The only
_real_ advantage comes if the bulb is located somewhere where it is _hard_
to change -- i.e., with a significant 'labor' cost involved in performing
the replacement.

If can get by with less light, use a lower wattage bulb.

With standard light-bulbs, that may _not_ be an option. Try and find an
off-the-shelf (i.e., that you can by in a grocery, hardware, or home-
improvement store) 'lower wattage bulb' with, say 10% less lumens than a
standard 100 watt 120V one. Quite simply, they don't exist.


If the bulb
is a PITA to get to, spend the money. It really is that simple.

On -that-, we are in complete agreement.

In article ,
Max wrote:
"jo4hn" wrote in message
om...
Nonny wrote:

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but
of equal relevance here. Grin

Electricity explained
I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly,
it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
110
comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes
from
below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
Since
most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
up
and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
and
up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either
individual
side only gives you 110 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which
side
of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
instance, it
will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the
slices
of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
then
turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
down
sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just
using Canadian tools with it.

Robert,
You know that's a bunch of bull. If you have an Australian saw and it runs
backwards all you have to do is to mount the blade backwards.
Sheesh.


One minor detail -- *I* didn't write _that_ bull. Nonny did. He left
in the "Robert Bonomi.. wrote", while taking out everything I'd said
in my posting.

That said, when _I_ am in Australia, I just mount the saw to the ceiling,
and everything runs in the proper direction for me.

In article ,
Mike Marlow wrote:

"Nonny" wrote in message
...

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message

Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about voltage,
resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go ahead and give a
general explanation of electricity for those of you all who don't really
understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another newsgroup, but of
equal relevance here. Grin

Electricity explained
I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so
different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly,
it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines
coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The up and down
110
comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from
below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water
flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth, it goes
clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise.
Since
most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an
up
and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down
and
up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual
side only gives you 110 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools- which side
of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for
instance, it
will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure,
you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden.
Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian
electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I knew one
person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices
of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110
volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned
from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and
then
turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and
down
sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box
sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just


Finally! An authoritative explanation of all those things that have been so
confusing for so long!

Watts that? There is a more than ample supply of things about electricity
that are confusing. At least for those who show reluctance to learning
about it, like Henry.

"Robert Bonomi" wrote:

I have. grin The '11th power' figure comes from a college
dorm-mate.
He'd interned with GE in their lighting manufacturing operation. And
his
masters thesis was on the subject.

Ever spend any time at Nela Park?

Lew

In article ,
Lew Hodgett wrote:

"Robert Bonomi" wrote:

I have. grin The '11th power' figure comes from a college
dorm-mate.
He'd interned with GE in their lighting manufacturing operation. And
his
masters thesis was on the subject.

Ever spend any time at Nela Park?

Lew

Me? no. (I was studying entirely different things -- and succeeding at
that (got one assignment back from the Prof. with "and now for something
completely different:" scrawled across the top f it.)

Him? I dunno.

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
Naaaw...we got the same bunch up here you got.

I'm not sure exactly who got that thinking in place,
but that's the way it's been for a very long time.

They are even taking down older aerial hook ups and
putting them back with underground.

We have had our share of hurricanes in the Carolina's
and the underground does pay off.

In the little town I live in (population 2000), all our power is on poles.
The towns around us, one of which is butted right up against us, have
underground systems. In the 17 years I have lived here, the longest we have
ever lost power was about 20 minutes. Not so with the towns around us. They
loose power for at least a few hours per year. One time, for two weeks in a
certain section. I remember my boss coming in in a less than good mood for a
couple of weeks when his power was out due to an ice storm. I lost a couple
of antenna but I still had power. I'm not advocating above ground power.
This doesn't make sense but I'm glad it has been that way.

Robert Bonomi" wrote:


Me? no. (I was studying entirely different things -- and succeeding
at
that (got one assignment back from the Prof. with "and now for
something
completely different:" scrawled across the top f it.)

Just curious.

Some of your posts suggest you have/had the Monogram tattooed on both
cheeks.

Lew

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:26:31 -0600,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
krw wrote:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:28:59 -0600,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Dec 10, 9:36*pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
We bought a new house once and the contractor put in 130v bulbs.
Not he 115v ones we buy in the store - and run them on 120 or 125v.

Anyway - when we sold the house 11 years later we still had some of
the original bulbs.

Consider : *P=E*I * If E drops - the power drops. *The bulb runs cooler.
* * * * * * *P=E^2/R *or R = E^2/P * 130*130/100 *= 13*13 = 269 ohms hot.
* * * * * * *(rule of thumb 1/10 of hot = cold resistance or 27 ohms for
surges).
* * * * * * *I=P/E = 100/130 = .76 amps
* * Now - using the 130 bulb with 269 ohm filament and we run it at 120 :

* * * * * * * P (used) = 120*120/269 * *or 14400/269 = 53.53 watts.
* * * * * * * P=E*I * so I=P/E *I = 53/120 = .44 amps

You assume that the temparature, thus the resistance, of the filament
is the same at 130V as it is at 120V. This is certainly *not* true.
At 120V, the lower filament temperature not only will the bulb use
less power (though less than expected using your calculations) will
make the bulb less efficient (lumens per watt), costing you money too.

lower used wattage, longer life due to the derrating.

Much longer, yes. Bulb life is a function of something like the 16th
power of service voltage.

Eleventh power. not 16th. grin
a 5% decrease in voltage equates to an over 70% increase in bulb life.

I've heard everything in between too. I haven't seen any definitive
reference, though.

I have. grin The '11th power' figure comes from a college dorm-mate.
He'd interned with GE in their lighting manufacturing operation. And his
masters thesis was on the subject.

AFOAF? ;-) Doesn't much matter which, the point stands.

It's still not saving money, unless there
is a cost associated with replacement in addition to the bulb cost.


Depends on what you're measuring. grin

"Per lumen of light output", the de-rated bulb is more expensive to operate.

Generally light bulbs are used to make light.

yup. But many people (erroneously!) consider _only_ the cost 'per hour of
operation', in which case the de-rated bulb is _always_ less expensive _per_
_hour_ than the one operated as rated.

If the de-rated output is 'adequate', and you're just looking at the cost of
operating "a bulb", the 130V bulb does save a little (circa 10%) operating
money. Plus a little more for the reduced replacement frequency. The only
_real_ advantage comes if the bulb is located somewhere where it is _hard_
to change -- i.e., with a significant 'labor' cost involved in performing
the replacement.

If can get by with less light, use a lower wattage bulb.

With standard light-bulbs, that may _not_ be an option. Try and find an
off-the-shelf (i.e., that you can by in a grocery, hardware, or home-
improvement store) 'lower wattage bulb' with, say 10% less lumens than a
standard 100 watt 120V one. Quite simply, they don't exist.

You assume *exact* illumination is required. Like most physiological
things, vision is logarithmic. There really isn't that much
difference between a 75W bulb and a 100W bulb that a 100W 130V bulb
would squeeze between.

If the bulb
is a PITA to get to, spend the money. It really is that simple.

On -that-, we are in complete agreement.

I may do that for my great room can lights and ceiling fans. The fans
only take a 10' ladder to get to, but the can lights are going to be a
real PITA. I don't use them because I really don't want to get up
there until I have to paint the ceiling. ;-)

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
Max wrote:
"jo4hn" wrote in message
news:W5idnX1BdO_Tcr_WnZ2dnUVZ_hFi4p2d@supernews. com...
Nonny wrote:

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in
message

Since there's been a lot of great thought posted here about
voltage,
resistance, light output and longevity, I thought I'd go
ahead and give a
general explanation of electricity for those of you all who
don't really
understand it fully. It's a repeat of a post to another
newsgroup, but
of equal relevance here. Grin

Electricity explained
I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why
it is so
different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as
big.
Secondly,
it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110
volt lines
coming to your house from different parts of the globe. The
up and down
110
comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up
version comes
from
below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the
direction water
flows when it goes down the drain. On the top of the earth,
it goes
clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter
clockwise.
Since
most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow
gives you an
up
and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives
you a down
and
up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while
either
individual
side only gives you 110 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power
tools- which
side
of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian
saw, for
instance, it
will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt
source. Sure,
you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an
unnecessary burden.
Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from
Australian
electricity to American electricity, with horrible results. I
knew one
person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it
froze the
slices
of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two
US-generated 110
volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a
trick I learned
from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own
fuse box and
then
turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the
two up and
down
sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn
the box
sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be
limited to just
using Canadian tools with it.

Robert,
You know that's a bunch of bull. If you have an Australian saw
and it runs
backwards all you have to do is to mount the blade backwards.
Sheesh.


One minor detail -- *I* didn't write _that_ bull. Nonny did.
He left
in the "Robert Bonomi.. wrote", while taking out everything I'd
said
in my posting.

That said, when _I_ am in Australia, I just mount the saw to the
ceiling,
and everything runs in the proper direction for me.

That's ridiculous, you'd get sawdust in your hair. grin Sorry
for not clearing out the attribution properly.

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:55:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:


The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.

In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.

IL, NY, and VT, too. Not sure when they did it in AL (we've only been
here a year) but all the new developments are underground.

Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course?

Bad assumption. Underground utilities aren't coming out of the
politicians pockets either. Politicians never care about unfunded
mandates.

krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:55:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:

The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.
In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.

IL, NY, and VT, too. Not sure when they did it in AL (we've only been
here a year) but all the new developments are underground.

Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course?

Bad assumption. Underground utilities aren't coming out of the
politicians pockets either. Politicians never care about unfunded
mandates.

Utilities here are regulated by the State, and payola to politicians for
favorable regulation, would of course, never cross their minds, and
politicians would never think to accept such favor.

Yeah, right ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:52:41 -0600, Swingman wrote:

krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:55:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:

The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.
In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.

IL, NY, and VT, too. Not sure when they did it in AL (we've only been
here a year) but all the new developments are underground.

Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course?

Bad assumption. Underground utilities aren't coming out of the
politicians pockets either. Politicians never care about unfunded
mandates.

Utilities here are regulated by the State, and payola to politicians for
favorable regulation, would of course, never cross their minds, and
politicians would never think to accept such favor.

Yeah, right ...

Underground utilities are funded mostly by builders (costs passed on
to buyers, obviously).

krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:52:41 -0600, Swingman wrote:

krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:55:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:

The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.
In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.
IL, NY, and VT, too. Not sure when they did it in AL (we've only been
here a year) but all the new developments are underground.

Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course?
Bad assumption. Underground utilities aren't coming out of the
politicians pockets either. Politicians never care about unfunded
mandates.
Utilities here are regulated by the State, and payola to politicians for
favorable regulation, would of course, never cross their minds, and
politicians would never think to accept such favor.

Yeah, right ...

Underground utilities are funded mostly by builders (costs passed on
to buyers, obviously).

Being a "builder", I agree to the extent that I do so for that which I
build ... unfortunately, it is not a requirement for builder's to do so
in this state, and even if it was, the chain is only as strong as it's
weakest link ... for neither are the utilities, responsible for the
"infrastructure", required to do so ... a fact to which my original
remarks were addressed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:43:14 -0600, Swingman wrote:

krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:52:41 -0600, Swingman wrote:

krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:55:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:

The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.
In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.
IL, NY, and VT, too. Not sure when they did it in AL (we've only been
here a year) but all the new developments are underground.

Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course?
Bad assumption. Underground utilities aren't coming out of the
politicians pockets either. Politicians never care about unfunded
mandates.
Utilities here are regulated by the State, and payola to politicians for
favorable regulation, would of course, never cross their minds, and
politicians would never think to accept such favor.

Yeah, right ...

Underground utilities are funded mostly by builders (costs passed on
to buyers, obviously).

Being a "builder", I agree to the extent that I do so for that which I
build ... unfortunately, it is not a requirement for builder's to do so
in this state, and even if it was, the chain is only as strong as it's
weakest link ... for neither are the utilities, responsible for the
"infrastructure", required to do so

It certainly was a requirement in NY and VT when I lived there. It
wasn't a requirement on the power company beyond the housing
developments, though. With only a few exceptions (only one I can
think of) it wasn't a requirement for any transmission.

... a fact to which my original remarks were addressed.

The requirement is an unfunded mandate on business, thus politicians
love it, was my point.

In article ,
krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:26:31 -0600,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
krw wrote:


[[ sneck ]]

Much longer, yes. Bulb life is a function of something like the 16th
power of service voltage.

Eleventh power. not 16th. grin
a 5% decrease in voltage equates to an over 70% increase in bulb life.

I've heard everything in between too. I haven't seen any definitive
reference, though.

I have. grin The '11th power' figure comes from a college dorm-mate.
He'd interned with GE in their lighting manufacturing operation. And his
masters thesis was on the subject.

AFOAF? ;-)

Try reading again. I knew the guy, personally. His masters thesis was
on the subject of optimizing lightbulb construction. I actually read the
whole thing -- before submission, in fact, as he wanted my editorial help,
and knew I could also follow the math.

The gathered experimental data fit a simple 11th order curve (with an error
under 5 parts in 10,000), over a range of more than three orders of magnitude,
in bulb life. i.e., of the form ax^11+k, no other elements.

Doesn't much matter which, the point stands.

Actually, it does, when you're justifying running some lighting circuits
off a (slight step-down auto-transformer. Accurate predictions of
results _do_ lead to repeat business.

It's still not saving money, unless there
is a cost associated with replacement in addition to the bulb cost.

Depends on what you're measuring. grin

"Per lumen of light output", the de-rated bulb is more expensive to
operate.

Generally light bulbs are used to make light.

yup. But many people (erroneously!) consider _only_ the cost 'per hour of
operation', in which case the de-rated bulb is _always_ less expensive _per_
_hour_ than the one operated as rated.

If the de-rated output is 'adequate', and you're just looking at the cost of
operating "a bulb", the 130V bulb does save a little (circa 10%) operating
money. Plus a little more for the reduced replacement frequency. The only
_real_ advantage comes if the bulb is located somewhere where it is _hard_
to change -- i.e., with a significant 'labor' cost involved in performing
the replacement.

If can get by with less light, use a lower wattage bulb.

With standard light-bulbs, that may _not_ be an option. Try and find an
off-the-shelf (i.e., that you can by in a grocery, hardware, or home-
improvement store) 'lower wattage bulb' with, say 10% less lumens than a
standard 100 watt 120V one. Quite simply, they don't exist.

You assume *exact* illumination is required.

No I don't. For many kinds of environments there is a _minimum_ recommended
level of illumination for the task(s) done there. (more below)

For standard incandescent bulbs, going up 'one standard wattage' results
in about 50% more light output. Note; at the _same_ service life, light
output _does_ correlate linearly with power consumption. One gets 50% more
light from a 75 watt bulb, vs a 60 watt one, because of design differences
that result in a 25% _lower_ life expectancy for the 75 watt bulb.

Like most physiological
things, vision is logarithmic. There really isn't that much
difference between a 75W bulb and a 100W bulb that a 100W 130V bulb
would squeeze between.

_That_ depends on the environment, and the situation. In business settings
you have to have certain minimums to keep OSHA inspectors, insurers, etc.
happy. With built-in fixtures, you can't change the source to work-
surface distance, so all you _can_ play with is the light output of the
bulb. 'Subjective' perception, or not, that circa 50% range between
adjacent standard bulb ratings _is_ enough that the 'legal' requirement
can preclude using the next lower standard rating, but still allow the
use of a, say, de-rated 130V bulb.

is a PITA to get to, spend the money. It really is that simple.

On -that-, we are in complete agreement.

I may do that for my great room can lights and ceiling fans. The fans
only take a 10' ladder to get to, but the can lights are going to be a
real PITA. I don't use them because I really don't want to get up
there until I have to paint the ceiling. ;-)

If they're regular bulbs, in flush-mount ceiling fixtures, there is a
'grabber' pole that makes that height pretty much a non-issue. grin

Now a _cord-supported_ can hanging 30+ ft above the nearest floor surface
(and 6-8 ft below the ceiling) is an entirely different story. Can't use
the grabber pole -- the fixture isn't 'stable' enough to grab the bulb,
Have to bring in the portable man lift, move furniture out of the way for
_that_, etc. it can easily take an hour or more, all told, to change a
=single= light bulb. (One can probably, however, change at least 5-6 bulbs
in the same room in 90 minutes total.

Robert Bonomi wrote:

snip of head spinning tech stuff

=single= light bulb. (One can probably, however, change at least 5-6 bulbs
in the same room in 90 minutes total.

Damn, Sam! ... and all this time I thought you were a lawyer ... go
figure!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"krw" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:55:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:


The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.

In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.

IL, NY, and VT, too. Not sure when they did it in AL (we've only been
here a year) but all the new developments are underground.

NY still has tons of overhead power. New services too. It's far from
mostly underground.

--

-Mike-

In the little forest town I used to live in the power is on poles.

Downtown was a bit ugly with power poles on both sides and lots of other
phone and cable wires..

The group of store owners got together and pressed the county commissioners
and the power company was pressed to put it under ground.

The power company didn't look back - it was great. Even house moves didn't
require them to come and parades didn't have to look at float heights...

It was a win - win concept.

Martin

krw wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:55:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:

The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.
In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.

IL, NY, and VT, too. Not sure when they did it in AL (we've only been
here a year) but all the new developments are underground.

Then you have much better politicians then we have ... assuming that
there is such a thing as a "better politician", of course?

Bad assumption. Underground utilities aren't coming out of the
politicians pockets either. Politicians never care about unfunded
mandates.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:25:46 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"krw" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:55:30 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Pat Barber wrote:

Swingman wrote:


The Gulf Coast desperately needs a change to underground electrical
infrastructure due to the historical and ever present hurricane threat.

In every house I build I try mightily to install an underground feed
from the pole/line to the new service even though it adds +/- $1k to
the cost, location and municipal building requirements permitting.

In North Carolina, you would be hard pressed to NOT
find a underground service. They made that the standard
here well over 30 years ago.

IL, NY, and VT, too. Not sure when they did it in AL (we've only been
here a year) but all the new developments are underground.

NY still has tons of overhead power. New services too. It's far from
mostly underground.

*NEW* developments are underground.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:31:14 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

In the little forest town I used to live in the power is on poles.

Downtown was a bit ugly with power poles on both sides and lots of other
phone and cable wires..

The group of store owners got together and pressed the county commissioners
and the power company was pressed to put it under ground.

The power company didn't look back - it was great. Even house moves didn't
require them to come and parades didn't have to look at float heights...

It was a win - win concept.

I rather like underground utilities. I don't like unfunded mandates
(or politicians who love unfunded mandates).