Any ideas on this one??

Making 4 dining room chairs. Using red oak that I bought rough and planed to
thickness. Milled all the pieces and am finishing them before the glue up so
NO glue or waxes etc have been applied to any of the wood.

Decided to use General Wipe on urethane in the dark mahogany color. I've
used it before and like the color. Started with a tack cloth to clean all
parts then wiped on a coat and immediately wiped down with a clean rag.
Color looked fine.

Approximately 24 hours later I am putting on the first coat of the General
Wipe on satin top coat.

On SOME of the pieces, the stain came off in splotches -exactly as you might
get if you had glue on a surface. Remember, this is stock that I milled
myself - I did not introduce and glue, silicone, etc to the surface.

Even though there is one coat of topcoat, I'm thinking I should sand down
again and repeat the process BUT I'm at a complete loss as to WHY it
blotched when it didn't wipe off when I applied the stain.

Any ideas? next time I'll just use a garnet shellac to get the finish.

Thanx,

Vic

Vic Baron wrote:

Any ideas? next time I'll just use a garnet shellac to get the finish.

Tack cloth ... did you buy it?

Some of the commercial ones are waxed, and if you rubbed hard ....


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...
Any ideas on this one??

Making 4 dining room chairs. Using red oak that I bought rough and planed
to thickness. Milled all the pieces and am finishing them before the glue
up so NO glue or waxes etc have been applied to any of the wood.

Decided to use General Wipe on urethane in the dark mahogany color. I've
used it before and like the color. Started with a tack cloth to clean all
parts then wiped on a coat and immediately wiped down with a clean rag.
Color looked fine.

Approximately 24 hours later I am putting on the first coat of the General
Wipe on satin top coat.

On SOME of the pieces, the stain came off in splotches -exactly as you
might get if you had glue on a surface. Remember, this is stock that I
milled myself - I did not introduce and glue, silicone, etc to the
surface.

Even though there is one coat of topcoat, I'm thinking I should sand down
again and repeat the process BUT I'm at a complete loss as to WHY it
blotched when it didn't wipe off when I applied the stain.

Any ideas? next time I'll just use a garnet shellac to get the finish.

Thanx,

Vic


General Finishes? Urethane stain? I thought that only Minwax had that kind
of stuff.
Anyway, most stains are meant to be wiped off after appication. If you
introduced a varnish to a stained surface that was not wiped down after
application you will often see this. Basically the varnish washes away the
layer that did not pentrate. AND it often happens in such a way that you
think you did something wrong during preperation, which you may have done
unknowingly.

[...snip...]

Decided to use General Wipe on urethane in the dark mahogany color. I've
used it before and like the color. Started with a tack cloth to clean all
parts then wiped on a coat and immediately wiped down with a clean rag.
Color looked fine.

Approximately 24 hours later I am putting on the first coat of the General
Wipe on satin top coat.

On SOME of the pieces, the stain came off in splotches -exactly as you might
get if you had glue on a surface. Remember, this is stock that I milled
myself - I did not introduce and glue, silicone, etc to the surface.

Even though there is one coat of topcoat, I'm thinking I should sand down
again and repeat the process BUT I'm at a complete loss as to WHY it
blotched when it didn't wipe off when I applied the stain.

Any ideas? next time I'll just use a garnet shellac to get the finish.

Thanx,

Vic


Hmm, polyurethane adhesion problems. I like the tack rag suggestion.

Other possible reasons? What was the temperature and humidity? High
humidity can mean it takes much longer to fully cure, more than 24
hours. Lower temperature, same thing.

Another suggestion I've seen; sanding with stearated sandpaper can
leave some material on the wood that affects adhesion.

More Google searching will no doubt find even more reasons the poly
didn't adhere; it is a too common problem.

next time I'll just use a garnet shellac to get the finish.

Well shellac is the finisher's friend. I use it for anything I can. If
you want more protection, put poly on for the last coat. They say
don't put poly over shellac but that doesn't apply if it is dewaxed
shellac.

the first coat of the General Wipe on satin top coat.

FYI, something that I recently read that makes sense to me, if you are
building up several coats but want a satin finish, use gloss on all
coats except the final coat, where you can use satin.. The flatteners
used to make it the surface satin will cloud up the finish more than
necessary.

Jim

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...
Any ideas on this one??


Hmm - possible tack cloth but it was a real old one that I bought a long
time ago and have used before w/o issue.

Temps did drop into the 40's last night but it was up in the 70'sll day
today. Started the top coat around 4pm - temp was 75.

out of about 48 pieces, about 12 have a problem - I'll take one and sand it
down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a dark
fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...

down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax Polyshades.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...

down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax
Polyshades.


To add to that a bit, my solution was to dab the stain back on and after
drying, dabbed a layer or two of varnish.
After the dabbed varnish dried I could apply successive coats of varnish in
the normal way.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...

down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax
Polyshades.


To add to that a bit, my solution was to dab the stain back on and after
drying, dabbed a layer or two of varnish.
After the dabbed varnish dried I could apply successive coats of varnish
in the normal way.



Since there are only a few small pieces, worst case scenario, I could remill
the parts - chair rails, etc but I think I'll try several approaches and see
what happens.

I'll resand down to bare wood and try again

I'll try sanding the 'blotched' area and reapplying stain

I'll try your approach above also and just reapply some stain, although I
did put a light coat of top coat on it already.


What is so frustrating is that there was no way to see this coming.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...

down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax
Polyshades.


To add to that a bit, my solution was to dab the stain back on and after
drying, dabbed a layer or two of varnish.
After the dabbed varnish dried I could apply successive coats of varnish
in the normal way.



Since there are only a few small pieces, worst case scenario, I could remill
the parts - chair rails, etc but I think I'll try several approaches and see
what happens.

I'll resand down to bare wood and try again

I'll try sanding the 'blotched' area and reapplying stain

I'll try your approach above also and just reapply some stain, although I
did put a light coat of top coat on it already.


What is so frustrating is that there was no way to see this coming.

On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 06:56:49 -0600, the infamous "Leon"
scrawled the following:


"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...

down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax Polyshades.

Yeah, a client made me use that one time on a project I built for them
and I was aghast at the blotchy, brushmarked finish. They were OK with
it. I tiptoed away and found a nice place to throw up. I won't make
that mistake again.

--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.

On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 06:56:49 -0600, the infamous "Leon"
scrawled the following:


"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...

down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax Polyshades.

Yeah, a client made me use that one time on a project I built for them
and I was aghast at the blotchy, brushmarked finish. They were OK with
it. I tiptoed away and found a nice place to throw up. I won't make
that mistake again.

--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:12:58 -0800, "Vic Baron"
wrote:

Any ideas on this one??

Making 4 dining room chairs. Using red oak that I bought rough and planed to
thickness. Milled all the pieces and am finishing them before the glue up so
NO glue or waxes etc have been applied to any of the wood.

Decided to use General Wipe on urethane in the dark mahogany color. I've
used it before and like the color. Started with a tack cloth to clean all
parts then wiped on a coat and immediately wiped down with a clean rag.
Color looked fine.

Approximately 24 hours later I am putting on the first coat of the General
Wipe on satin top coat.

On SOME of the pieces, the stain came off in splotches -exactly as you might
get if you had glue on a surface. Remember, this is stock that I milled
myself - I did not introduce and glue, silicone, etc to the surface.

Even though there is one coat of topcoat, I'm thinking I should sand down
again and repeat the process BUT I'm at a complete loss as to WHY it
blotched when it didn't wipe off when I applied the stain.

Any ideas? next time I'll just use a garnet shellac to get the finish.


I had something like that happen when I wore some cheap disposable
gloves while staining. Everywhere I touched it the stain wiped off.
Ah well, at least it wasn't a great big hard maple entertainment
center I had to sand down and redo. Oh wait, yes it was...


-Kevin

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:12:58 -0800, "Vic Baron"
wrote:

Any ideas on this one??

Making 4 dining room chairs. Using red oak that I bought rough and planed to
thickness. Milled all the pieces and am finishing them before the glue up so
NO glue or waxes etc have been applied to any of the wood.

Decided to use General Wipe on urethane in the dark mahogany color. I've
used it before and like the color. Started with a tack cloth to clean all
parts then wiped on a coat and immediately wiped down with a clean rag.
Color looked fine.

Approximately 24 hours later I am putting on the first coat of the General
Wipe on satin top coat.

On SOME of the pieces, the stain came off in splotches -exactly as you might
get if you had glue on a surface. Remember, this is stock that I milled
myself - I did not introduce and glue, silicone, etc to the surface.

Even though there is one coat of topcoat, I'm thinking I should sand down
again and repeat the process BUT I'm at a complete loss as to WHY it
blotched when it didn't wipe off when I applied the stain.

Any ideas? next time I'll just use a garnet shellac to get the finish.


I had something like that happen when I wore some cheap disposable
gloves while staining. Everywhere I touched it the stain wiped off.
Ah well, at least it wasn't a great big hard maple entertainment
center I had to sand down and redo. Oh wait, yes it was...


-Kevin

Leon wrote:
"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...
down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax Polyshades.

I never have that problem because I never use the stuff.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Leon wrote:
"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...
down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax Polyshades.

I never have that problem because I never use the stuff.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:32:27 -0800, the infamous "Vic Baron"
scrawled the following:



"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...

down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax
Polyshades.


To add to that a bit, my solution was to dab the stain back on and after
drying, dabbed a layer or two of varnish.
After the dabbed varnish dried I could apply successive coats of varnish
in the normal way.



Since there are only a few small pieces, worst case scenario, I could remill
the parts - chair rails, etc but I think I'll try several approaches and see
what happens.

I'll resand down to bare wood and try again

I'll try sanding the 'blotched' area and reapplying stain

I'll try your approach above also and just reapply some stain, although I
did put a light coat of top coat on it already.


What is so frustrating is that there was no way to see this coming.

Sure there is. While doing the prep (wiping with lacquer thinner)
look for differences in gloss. Water works for other adulterants, so
use it to raise the grain and check while doing it, then dry it and
use solvent to check again. It catches most crap easily.

I thought some nice clear cedar from the lumber yard was clean last
summer and found out the hard way that it wasn't. I should have caught
that in the prep, but I was too overheated to think that day and it
cost me a couple more days of stripping, sanding, prepping, and
repainting. That's right, the client wanted paint on $8/bf knot-free
cedar wood! I cried twice over that job.

--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.

On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:32:27 -0800, the infamous "Vic Baron"
scrawled the following:



"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...

down to bare wood and repeat the process and see what happens.

The discoloration looks exactly as it would if you spilled bleach on a
dark fabric - looks like a spill and lighter than the surrounding area.

Frustrating.

Sounds exactly like the problem I almost always have with Minwax
Polyshades.


To add to that a bit, my solution was to dab the stain back on and after
drying, dabbed a layer or two of varnish.
After the dabbed varnish dried I could apply successive coats of varnish
in the normal way.



Since there are only a few small pieces, worst case scenario, I could remill
the parts - chair rails, etc but I think I'll try several approaches and see
what happens.

I'll resand down to bare wood and try again

I'll try sanding the 'blotched' area and reapplying stain

I'll try your approach above also and just reapply some stain, although I
did put a light coat of top coat on it already.


What is so frustrating is that there was no way to see this coming.

Sure there is. While doing the prep (wiping with lacquer thinner)
look for differences in gloss. Water works for other adulterants, so
use it to raise the grain and check while doing it, then dry it and
use solvent to check again. It catches most crap easily.

I thought some nice clear cedar from the lumber yard was clean last
summer and found out the hard way that it wasn't. I should have caught
that in the prep, but I was too overheated to think that day and it
cost me a couple more days of stripping, sanding, prepping, and
repainting. That's right, the client wanted paint on $8/bf knot-free
cedar wood! I cried twice over that job.

--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:12:58 -0800, "Vic Baron"
wrote:

Any ideas on this one??

Making 4 dining room chairs. Using red oak that I bought rough and planed
to
thickness. Milled all the pieces and am finishing them before the glue up
so
NO glue or waxes etc have been applied to any of the wood.

Decided to use General Wipe on urethane in the dark mahogany color. I've
used it before and like the color. Started with a tack cloth to clean all
parts then wiped on a coat and immediately wiped down with a clean rag.
Color looked fine.

Approximately 24 hours later I am putting on the first coat of the General
Wipe on satin top coat.

On SOME of the pieces, the stain came off in splotches -exactly as you
might
get if you had glue on a surface. Remember, this is stock that I milled
myself - I did not introduce and glue, silicone, etc to the surface.

Even though there is one coat of topcoat, I'm thinking I should sand down
again and repeat the process BUT I'm at a complete loss as to WHY it
blotched when it didn't wipe off when I applied the stain.

Any ideas? next time I'll just use a garnet shellac to get the finish.


I had something like that happen when I wore some cheap disposable
gloves while staining. Everywhere I touched it the stain wiped off.
Ah well, at least it wasn't a great big hard maple entertainment
center I had to sand down and redo. Oh wait, yes it was...


-Kevin

Hmmm. Now that is an interesting concept. I always use those cheap
nitrile/latex disposables from Harbor Freight.

Vic Baron wrote:

Hmmm. Now that is an interesting concept. I always use those cheap
nitrile/latex disposables from Harbor Freight.

I use "Member's Mark" disposable nitrile gloves from Sam's when staining
and have never had the problem.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Dec 2, 11:09*am, Swingman wrote:
Vic Baron wrote:
Hmmm. *Now that is an interesting concept. I always use those cheap
nitrile/latex disposables from Harbor Freight.

I use "Member's Mark" disposable nitrile gloves from Sam's when staining
and have never had the problem.

I haven't had any problems with the nitriles from HF. I cannot
imagine affordable gloves from Sam's being much different from the HF
models. i have used several boxes of the HF with no problems.

Just couldn't afford the ones made in the USA anymore. They are too
expensive when you change gloves 4 - 5 times a day when finishing/
refinishing.

Robert

In ,
dropped this bit of wisdom:
On Dec 2, 11:09 am, Swingman wrote:
Vic Baron wrote:
Hmmm. Now that is an interesting concept. I always use those cheap
nitrile/latex disposables from Harbor Freight.

I use "Member's Mark" disposable nitrile gloves from Sam's when
staining and have never had the problem.

I haven't had any problems with the nitriles from HF. I cannot
imagine affordable gloves from Sam's being much different from the HF
models. i have used several boxes of the HF with no problems.

Just couldn't afford the ones made in the USA anymore. They are too
expensive when you change gloves 4 - 5 times a day when finishing/
refinishing.

Robert

BTB and maybe of topic: I have a box of those nitriles(?) used to keep strange bugs (H1N1) at bay. They are definitely no good for removing deck stain as the sodium hydroxide eats them up. ;-(

P D Q

"Mike Marlow" wrote:

Are you sure? I've never used sodium hydroxide, but I use lacquer
thinner by the gallon and they stand up to it. Of course, as I
said...

Sodium hydroxide AKA: Caustic will definitely chew up nitrile.

I use gloves from a safety clothing outfit that are not effected by
solvents or caustic.

About $7-$9/doz pairs.

Cuff is above the wrist.

Big use in food processing or so I'm told.

Lew


Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote:

Are you sure? I've never used sodium hydroxide, but I use lacquer
thinner by the gallon and they stand up to it. Of course, as I said...

Sodium hydroxide AKA: Caustic will definitely chew up nitrile.

I use gloves from a safety clothing outfit that are not effected by
solvents or caustic.

About $7-$9/doz pairs.

Cuff is above the wrist.

Big use in food processing or so I'm told.


Can you email me some additional information on these gloves? Always
interested in alternatives. I think the HF stuff is about the same price,
but for a lot more pairs.

--

-Mike-

On Dec 2, 1:13*pm, "Mike Marlow" wrote:

Sheet metal has a *really* tight grain...

Got a real chuckle out of that. Not much room for error there, eh?
Almost zero? =^0 !!

Robert