On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 08:04:00 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
I now make parts for different people who e-mail/fax me drawings so I
can quote on them.
Some parts are such that I can't tell what they are or what they're
the purpose of them are.
Sometimes I see dimensions as obviously imperial ones, sometime it is
hard to tell, especially when I have NO clue what these parts are.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what system is used as I work in
both metric and imperial.
But what seems to be the reason for the US hold-out to stay with an
archaic system?

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9974/metricmap.jpg

Ok, What ia half of 5.3 mm?

What's 18.5" divided by 3?


-Kevin

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

The metric system? Used in the Bible? I don't think so.

There are 10 commandments but most people use only a fraction of them.

On Sep 9, 10:29*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message

The metric system? Used in the Bible? I don't think so.

There are 10 commandments but most people use only a fraction of them.

I thought there were 613 commandments.

"Robatoy" wrote in message the Duke
Of Gloucester on Yonge might be closer.... but that is in an iffy area...

Extremely close to where I live, but unfortunately it's on the second floor.
The first few years here I visited the Pilot Tavern on occasion until they
added several steps in the front door. However, if it's that type of pub
atmosphere that you're into, I know of several locations nearby that are
similar. Or, if you're ok for a dive, there's the Burgundy bar and grill ~
less than five minutes away.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message

The hold-out is that the US is still at least somewhat responsive to
the will of the people and the public doesn't _want_ some bizarre
French system
crammed down its throat.

So instead of getting paid in dollars and cents should we change to a
system of farthings, shillings, or ringgits?

Why should we change _anything_?

Dollars are 10 based, just like metric, and it works. You seem to think is
is bizarre.



Much of our country happily works with metric every day and have for
decades. Those people don't look any worse for wear.

Are they the majority? If not then what right do they have to impose
their
system on the majority?


They are your health care providers for starters.

Metric users are becoming the majority. Forward looking companies are
making their products with metric hardware so they can export them. Too
often, people lose sight of the world economy and the requirements of some
countries with standards. They don't want inches any more than we wanted
metric imported cars. That has been a sticking point with exporting in the
automobile industry for many years.

When our company started buying Austrian made machines, it was a little
learning curve. Like others I was a bit apprehensive about learning a new
system. Once I did, I found it easier to work with, as have all of our
supervisors, maintenance people, and so forth. Some are just afraid of
change, afraid of having to learn a new different system.

Some of our industry tooling suppliers resisted the change and started to
lose a lot of business. There has not been a US maker of our type of
equipment for over 25 years so it was adapt or lose. A few went out of
business, the others easily adapted and are doing well. In the future, it
will be adapt or die. Do you want to be a part of the rest of the world?
Perhaps you don't have to, but with more and more of our business being
international, I prefer to adapt. Doing our little part of offset the trade
imbalance.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
..

You bring up a good point. Let's face it, only Congress would know
what is best for us. We should do as the say.

Uh, Ed, I don't see how requiring "2L (2.1 QT)" instead of just "2L" or
just
"2.1 QT" is an example of "only Congress would know what is best for us".


Look up John, something just flew over your head.

On Sep 9, 10:34*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message *the Duke
Of Gloucester on Yonge might be closer.... but that is in an iffy area....

Extremely close to where I live, but unfortunately it's on the second floor.
The first few years here I visited the Pilot Tavern on occasion until they
added several steps in the front door. However, if it's that type of pub
atmosphere that you're into, I know of several locations nearby that are
similar. Or, if you're ok for a dive, there's the Burgundy bar and grill ~
less than five minutes away.

Van Morrison, The Cult, David Gray are all coming through this fall,
I'll be catching a couple of those...so I'll be in touch.

"Upscale" wrote in message

When you see Canadian grown food, is it measured in metric? Your US food
comes here in quarts, pints, pounds and ounces.

No matter where is comes from, it is usually sold that way here, with a few
expectations for pre-packed stuff.

The big controversy, IMO, comes down to resistance to change. If you fear
the change it will be difficult. Travel to another country and you'll be
amazed at how you can adapt. I can buy food using Euros per kilo just as
easily as dollars per pound. I either learned how or starved for a couple
of weeks.

Ed Edelenbos wrote:
"notbob" wrote in message
...
On 2009-09-09, J. Clarke wrote:

manufacturing and packaging, so how _do_ the manufacturers and
packagers figure it out?


I dunno... they hire French engineers to do the hard work? The work
that requires thought?

"French engineers" is an oxymoron.

They actually use their brains to THINK, a simple function of higher
animals that seems to be rapidly falling out of favor.

nb

They do it out of desperation, hoping they can recover some small
part of the business they've lost to foreign manufacturers who
changed over 50 years ago.

And you think that metric had something to do with that?

On 9/9/2009 6:36 PM Upscale spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
Interesting (that most of your food comes from here); seems like a lot
of the food I buy here in the U.S. comes from Canada. I buy most of my
food at Traitor Joe's, and it's surprising how much stuff says "product
of Canada".

When you see Canadian grown food, is it measured in metric? Your US food
comes here in quarts, pints, pounds and ounces.

Nope; typical packaging. F'rinstance, some crackers I regularly buy:
"Wheat Crisps"; 9 oz. (255 g.). Customary units first, pretend units second.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

On 9/9/2009 7:02 PM Doug Miller spake thus:

In article m, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Interesting (that most of your food comes from here); seems like a lot
of the food I buy here in the U.S. comes from Canada. I buy most of my
food at Traitor Joe's,

Whattsamatter, you don't like Joe very much?

I shop there every week. It's just a funny way of referring to them
(plus an antidote to how their stores seems to be metastasizing all over
the goddamn place).


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

On 9/9/2009 7:28 PM Kevin spake thus:

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 08:04:00 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:

Ok, What ia half of 5.3 mm?

What's 18.5" divided by 3?

Easy; 6-1/6".


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

On 9/9/2009 7:34 PM Robatoy spake thus:

On Sep 9, 10:29 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

The metric system? Used in the Bible? I don't think so.

There are 10 commandments but most people use only a fraction of them.

I thought there were 613 commandments.

613 - 603 (# of commandments universally ignored) = 10.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

"David Nebenzahl" wrote:

I shop there every week. It's just a funny way of referring to them
(plus an antidote to how their stores seems to be metastasizing all
over the goddamn place).

Keeps shortening the trip to pick up "$2 Chuck".

Lew

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:56:51 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 9/9/2009 5:44 PM Luigi Zanasi spake thus:

On Sep 9, 5:35 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

OK, new question: how big is an RCH? (Sorry if this has been covered
here before ad nasueam.)

I read one comment on a web page[1] that claimed it was 1/200" (OK, for
those who prefer fake units of measurement, that's 0.127mm).

The point is that a RCH is not convertible into other units. It's an
RCH.

Ah, sui generis. I see.

Now I just need to find me one ...

Betcha can't eat just one.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
The metric system? Used in the Bible? I don't think so.

There are 10 commandments but most people use only a fraction of them.

When you say "10", I don't know whether you're talking binary, octal,
decimal, hexadecimal, or what. At least have the common courtesy to
specify what number base you're using! Sheesh. :-)

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Ed Edelenbos wrote:
"notbob" wrote in message
...
On 2009-09-09, J. Clarke wrote:

manufacturing and packaging, so how _do_ the manufacturers and
packagers figure it out?


I dunno... they hire French engineers to do the hard work? The work
that requires thought?

"French engineers" is an oxymoron.

They actually use their brains to THINK, a simple function of higher
animals that seems to be rapidly falling out of favor.

nb

They do it out of desperation, hoping they can recover some small
part of the business they've lost to foreign manufacturers who
changed over 50 years ago.

And you think that metric had something to do with that?

Yes.

And I also think that at this point, you are acting dense for effect.

Ed

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:00:34 -0500, Morris Dovey
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/9/2009 4:21 PM Dan Coby spake thus:

Likewise the use of decimal (base 10) for representing numbers is
based on the minor detail that people have 10 fingers. Since most
people have stopped doing arithmetic on their fingers, we should
switch to a more rational base for our number system. Ask any
computer and it will tell you that binary is much more rational. The
only disadvantage of binary is that it takes a bunch of digits to
represent anything useful. Hexadecimal reduces the binary digit count
by a factor of four. Most numbers take fewer digits in hex than in
decimal.

OK, I want to see how adept you are at hex arithmetic. Quick: what are

1. A09E + B1AF

A09E
+B1AF
-----
1524D

2. 79 * AAAA

(79 * A = 4BA)

4BA
4BA
4BA
4BA
------
50AA5A

3. 2179 / 9D2

(division by repeated subtraction)

2179
-9D2
----
17A7
-9D2
----
DD5
-9D2
----
403

3 R403

Show your work.

Hmm - do you really have a calculator phobia?

There are 10 types of people in this world; those who can do binary
arithmetic and those who can't.

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:09:18 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 9/9/2009 7:28 PM Kevin spake thus:

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 08:04:00 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:

Ok, What ia half of 5.3 mm?

What's 18.5" divided by 3?

Easy; 6-1/6".

Yes. Got a tape/ruler that does sixths, do ya?

What happens when the calc spits out 5.2917364? Got your decimal
equivalents of the 32nds all memorized, do ya?

Imperial does powers of 2 really nicely, but metric does everything
equally well.


-Kevin

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

Uh, 9mm is just .38 caliber misspelled.



9mm is actually closer to a .357

So's a .38.


?

On 2009-09-10, Leon wrote:

?

(sigh)

OK. What is it you don't understand, this time, Leon?

HINT: no one makes rules for bullet calibers, either.

nb

Doug Miller wrote:
: In article , "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:
: [...]
:There were at least three metric systems. It isn't a French
:system. It is a standard - a unified German, British, French and Japanese.
:Oh - the US had people there - and they agreed. And yes
:the standard is generated in France.
:
:It was the measure used in the bible. It is much older than
:England or Britain.

: The metric system? Used in the Bible? I don't think so.

Yeah, it's right after the section on how to write iPhone apps.
Corinthians, I think.

You musta missed it somehow.

-- Andy Barss

On 9/9/2009 8:02 PM J. Clarke spake thus:

Ed Edelenbos wrote:

"notbob" wrote in message
...

On 2009-09-09, J. Clarke wrote:

manufacturing and packaging, so how _do_ the manufacturers and
packagers figure it out?

I dunno... they hire French engineers to do the hard work? The work
that requires thought?

"French engineers" is an oxymoron.

Really? Can you say "TGV"? "European extremely large telescope"?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

:
: Why should we change _anything_?

: Dollars are 10 based, just like metric, and it works. You seem to think is
: is bizarre.


Well, it's base 10, like the metric/SAI system (actually the dollar is
base 100, as witness the penny, the nickel, and the 25-cent and
50-cent pieces, none of which correspond to a power-of-ten division
of a dollar).

There's two separate things in the metric/Imperial debate (aka the wrong
vs. right way debate). These often get confused.

One is the numeric base. The Imperial system is a mix of base 12 and base
16. Metric is base 10. It's easier to divide Imperial units into thirds,
quarters, and so on than metric; and easier to divide metric amounts by
powers of 10. Both 12 and 16 have more integral divisors than 10 does,
and so Imperial makes it easier, one may argue, to divide lengths and
areas and so on into equal-sized parts.

The other is the relative utility/ergonomicness/intuitiveness of the size
of the basic units. In metric, the basic unit is the gram and kilogram;
the millimeter and meter; and so on. tghere is a 1000-fold jump between
the official units.

Some people feel, and I am one of
them, that these central units are clunky, too far apart in their ratios,
and don't corespond to the size discriminations I find useful to make.

Money is a very different thing, in that's it's a totally abstract system,
and isn't subject to the same usability constraints that physical
measurement systems are.


-- Andy Barss

Kevin wrote:

:Ok, What ia half of 5.3 mm?

: What's 18.5" divided by 3?

What's 18.5 mm divided by 3?

-- Andy Barss, quizzical

David Nebenzahl wrote:

: Nope; typical packaging. F'rinstance, some crackers I regularly buy:
: "Wheat Crisps"; 9 oz. (255 g.). Customary units first, pretend units second.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^


}:-}


-- Andy Barss

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 9/9/2009 6:36 PM Upscale spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
Interesting (that most of your food comes from here); seems like a lot
of the food I buy here in the U.S. comes from Canada. I buy most of my
food at Traitor Joe's, and it's surprising how much stuff says "product
of Canada".

When you see Canadian grown food, is it measured in metric? Your US food
comes here in quarts, pints, pounds and ounces.

Nope; typical packaging. F'rinstance, some crackers I regularly buy:
"Wheat Crisps"; 9 oz. (255 g.). Customary units first, pretend units
second.



I've started referring to them as "real people units". As in when someone
tells me "that's about 90 cm tall", my response is, "what is that in
real-people units?"



--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

On 2009-09-10, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Really? Can you say "TGV"? "European extremely large telescope"?

....or the fact France supplies 78% of their electrical power through
safe nuclear powerplants vs our shakey 18%. They were the first to
isolate and identify the aids virus.

I've worked with French engineers and scientists. They have a lot of
weird characteristics and some bizarre facets to their culture, but
stupidity isn't in it. They're some sharp cookies when they put their
minds to it.

nb

On Sep 9, 8:02*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
Ed Edelenbos wrote:
I dunno... *they hire French engineers to do the hard work? *The work
that requires thought?

"French engineers" is an oxymoron.

Hmm? TGV, Exocet, Pont de Millau, efficient and inexpensive nuclear
power, Rafale, etc., for very recent examples.

You can go back to French leadership aeronautical & automotive
engineering in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Don't forget the
Eiffel tower.

If you want to go even further back, just go to Reims, Chartres,
Rouen, Ile de la Cité in Paris, Sens, Beauvais, etc.

Not quite an oxymoron.

On Sep 9, 10:24*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/9/2009 6:36 PM Upscale spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
Interesting (that most of your food comes from here); seems like a lot
of the food I buy here in the U.S. comes from Canada. I buy most of my
food at Traitor Joe's, and it's surprising how much stuff says "product
of Canada".

When you see Canadian grown food, is it measured in metric? Your US food
comes here in quarts, *pints, pounds and ounces.

Nope; typical packaging. F'rinstance, some crackers I regularly buy:
"Wheat Crisps"; 9 oz. (255 g.). Customary units first, pretend units
second.

* I've started referring to them as "real people units". *As in when someone
tells me "that's about 90 cm tall", my response is, "what is that in
real-people units?"

So, the 95% or so of the world's population who would say 90cm are not
real people????

Luigi

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 02:04:34 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

The metric system? Used in the Bible? I don't think so.

Nor do I. I really wouldn't use the Bible as a scientific/engineering
guide. A cursory reading implies Pi = 3.000. KJV, I Kings 7: 26ff and
II Chronicles 4: 2ff

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

in 113640 20090910 064102 Luigi Zanasi wrote:

"French engineers" is an oxymoron.

Hmm? TGV, Exocet, Pont de Millau, efficient and inexpensive nuclear
power, Rafale, etc., for very recent examples.

IKIANB the Pont de Millau was designed by Norman Foster, an Englishman.
But I suppose building it was a lot harder than designing it.

notbob wrote in
:

*snip*


I've worked with French engineers and scientists. They have a lot of
weird characteristics and some bizarre facets to their culture, but
stupidity isn't in it. They're some sharp cookies when they put their
minds to it.

nb

Beware sharp cookies. Sometimes they bite back when you bite in to them!
Just stick with the safe rounded ones like homemade chocolate chip!
(Yum, Yum!)

Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Kevin wrote in
:


What's 18.5" divided by 3?


-Kevin

It's 6.(5/3).

It's valid... just unusual. You'd probably trip up quite a few computer
programs with it.

Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message

The hold-out is that the US is still at least somewhat responsive
to the will of the people and the public doesn't _want_ some
bizarre French system
crammed down its throat.

So instead of getting paid in dollars and cents should we change to
a system of farthings, shillings, or ringgits?

Why should we change _anything_?

Dollars are 10 based, just like metric, and it works. You seem to
think is is bizarre.

If you grew up in England then you might think it so.

Much of our country happily works with metric every day and have for
decades. Those people don't look any worse for wear.

Are they the majority? If not then what right do they have to impose
their
system on the majority?


They are your health care providers for starters.

So you're saying that we now live in a doctorocracy where "health care
providers" get to tell us how to live our lives?

Metric users are becoming the majority.

Fine. When they do then they'll vote to change the system and it will get
changed. Meanwhile, get a life or take some Ritalin or do whatever you need
to do in order to obtain some _PATIENCE_.

Forward looking companies are
making their products with metric hardware so they can export them.
Too often, people lose sight of the world economy and the
requirements of some countries with standards. They don't want inches
any more than we wanted metric imported cars. That has been a
sticking point with exporting in the automobile industry for many
years.

Yeah, like people walk into a car showroom and the first thing the do is
pull a fastener and check the threads to see if it's metric.

When our company started buying Austrian made machines, it was a
little learning curve. Like others I was a bit apprehensive about
learning a new system. Once I did, I found it easier to work with, as
have all of our supervisors, maintenance people, and so forth. Some
are just afraid of change, afraid of having to learn a new different
system.

You had to learn a new system in order to use Austrian made machines? What
system was that, or didn't you already know metric?

Please be aware that I've been USING metric for going on 40 years. I just
don't find it this totally wonderful life-improving convenience that its
advocates claim it to be.

Some of our industry tooling suppliers resisted the change and
started to lose a lot of business.

What change did they resist? Did the simply not make tooling for machinery
that was becoming popular? If so that's stupidity having nothing to do with
a measurement system.

There has not been a US maker of
our type of equipment for over 25 years so it was adapt or lose. A
few went out of business, the others easily adapted and are doing
well. In the future, it will be adapt or die.

I don't see where buying the tools you need is "adapting". You're making
far too big a deal out of the metric system. I have tools that are English
system and tools that are metric and a few that are neither. I use
whichever tool I need for a job and don't really worry about it.

Do you want to be a
part of the rest of the world? Perhaps you don't have to, but with
more and more of our business being international, I prefer to adapt.
Doing our little part of offset the trade imbalance.

"Adapt" all you want to. JUST DON'T GO AROUND PASSING LAWS THAT TELL OTHER
PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE TO.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
.

You bring up a good point. Let's face it, only Congress would know
what is best for us. We should do as the say.

Uh, Ed, I don't see how requiring "2L (2.1 QT)" instead of just "2L"
or just
"2.1 QT" is an example of "only Congress would know what is best for
us".


Look up John, something just flew over your head.

Obviously it did--would you be kind enough to explain it?

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/9/2009 8:02 PM J. Clarke spake thus:

Ed Edelenbos wrote:

"notbob" wrote in message
...

On 2009-09-09, J. Clarke wrote:

manufacturing and packaging, so how _do_ the manufacturers and
packagers figure it out?

I dunno... they hire French engineers to do the hard work? The
work that requires thought?

"French engineers" is an oxymoron.

Really? Can you say "TGV"? "European extremely large telescope".

JEEZUS, would you people get a humor transplant or something?

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/9/2009 6:36 PM Upscale spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
Interesting (that most of your food comes from here); seems like a
lot of the food I buy here in the U.S. comes from Canada. I buy
most of my food at Traitor Joe's, and it's surprising how much
stuff says "product of Canada".

When you see Canadian grown food, is it measured in metric? Your US
food comes here in quarts, pints, pounds and ounces.

Nope; typical packaging. F'rinstance, some crackers I regularly buy:
"Wheat Crisps"; 9 oz. (255 g.). Customary units first, pretend units
second.

I'm seeing a lot of foods marked in decimal pounds, pounds and ounces, and
metric. The people who want it in metric only or metric first are as
whackadoodle as the Francophone Quebecois who go around measuring signs to
make sure that the French is more prominent than the English.

Leon wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

Uh, 9mm is just .38 caliber misspelled.



9mm is actually closer to a .357

So's a .38.


?

Get out your reloading manual and check the bullet dimensions for the more
popular of the cartridges normally described as ".38".

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
whackadoodle as the Francophone Quebecois who go around measuring signs to
make sure that the French is more prominent than the English.

Now, that's a poor comparison. Metric conversion has only come to the
forefront as more and more manufacturing becomes a worldwide concern and
largely over the past 50 years. Whereas, Quebec French have always been
screwed up. After all, they're French, they're largely anti Canadian and
they think strangely. Thank God my father moved our family from Montreal to
Toronto when I was eleven and I didn't have to suffer my teenage years
through a totally crazy society. Growing up is tough enough. Doing it in
Quebec as an English speaking youth is totally whacked.