I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?

John

"John" wrote in message
...
I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?

John

They will be used.

Dovetails can be made with a $20 saw and a $8 chisel.

I think box joints are strong and ugly. I think dovetails are strong and
attractive.

What is a Knapp joint?

"John" wrote in message
...
I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?

John

DT joints are stronger than box joints. They will hold with out glue, not
permanently of course. A big advantag of the DT over the bok joint is that
on many of the better jigs you can adjust spacing and the tails and pins to
fit the project. Bokjoints dictate that the project be designed around the
joint length.

"Lowell Holmes" wrote in message
...

"John" wrote in message
...
I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?

John

They will be used.

Dovetails can be made with a $20 saw and a $8 chisel.

I think box joints are strong and ugly. I think dovetails are strong and
attractive.

What is a Knapp joint?
I googled a Knapp joint. It is unique, but it looks difficult to me. I like
dovetails better.

Leon wrote:

DT joints are stronger than box joints. They will hold with out glue, not
permanently of course. A big advantag of the DT over the bok joint is that
on many of the better jigs you can adjust spacing and the tails and pins to
fit the project. Bokjoints dictate that the project be designed around the
joint length.

It's true that dovetails will hold without glue.

However, box joints can be can be cut to any finger width desired if you
have the right jig.

Also, box joints can be made as strong as or stronger than dovetail
joints because you can easily cut narrower fingers thus providing more
glue surface. (See http://woodgears.ca/dovetail/index.html for one test
of this.)

Chris

Leon wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?

John

DT joints are stronger than box joints. They will hold with out glue, not
permanently of course. A big advantag of the DT over the bok joint is that
on many of the better jigs you can adjust spacing and the tails and pins to
fit the project. Bokjoints dictate that the project be designed around the
joint length.



Leon, granted that a DT will hold without glue over a box joint, and the
DTs would also give mechanical resistance over a box joint.

However, would it not also be a consideration that a box joint has more
glue surface and that would counteract the mechanical advantage of a DT?

Regardless of the answer to that, my opinion is that dovetails are much
prettier than box joints, and as someone also pointed out, neither an
Akeda nor Leigh jig is necessary to make them. I've made them with a
cheap saw and cheaper chisels - not Akeda quality and uniformity, to be
sure, but passable and sssstrong as hell.

Tanus

"Tanus" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
Snip




Leon, granted that a DT will hold without glue over a box joint, and the
DTs would also give mechanical resistance over a box joint.

However, would it not also be a consideration that a box joint has more
glue surface and that would counteract the mechanical advantage of a DT?

A box joint could have more have more glue surface or less depending on
whether the box fingers are smaller than the tails and pins.


Regardless of the answer to that, my opinion is that dovetails are much
prettier than box joints, and as someone also pointed out, neither an
Akeda nor Leigh jig is necessary to make them. I've made them with a cheap
saw and cheaper chisels - not Akeda quality and uniformity, to be sure,
but passable and sssstrong as hell.


I used to make a bunch on a Sears $39 DT jig back in the early 80's. ;~)

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...
Leon wrote:

DT joints are stronger than box joints. They will hold with out glue,
not
permanently of course. A big advantag of the DT over the bok joint is
that
on many of the better jigs you can adjust spacing and the tails and pins
to
fit the project. Bokjoints dictate that the project be designed around
the
joint length.

It's true that dovetails will hold without glue.

However, box joints can be can be cut to any finger width desired if you
have the right jig.

That is also correct, I was looking more at the aspect that they would need
to be all the same size, "any" size needed might be difficult.



Also, box joints can be made as strong as or stronger than dovetail
joints because you can easily cut narrower fingers thus providing more
glue surface. (See http://woodgears.ca/dovetail/index.html for one test
of this.)


Chris, Ill give this one. ;~) I was mostly thinking through DT joints
which are certainly stronger than a blind DT and not totally not unlike box
joints.

On Jul 21, 5:23*pm, John wrote:
I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? *There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. *As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. *It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

Learn to chop them by hand. DAGS "Frank Klausz dovetail" to see how
fast it can be done.*

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?

Dovetails will _absolutely_ stop being used...as soon as we run out of
wood, wood-substitutes and people who appreciate quality.

R

* Your speed may vary by -0/+1000%

Leon wrote:
"Tanus" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
Snip


Leon, granted that a DT will hold without glue over a box joint, and the
DTs would also give mechanical resistance over a box joint.

However, would it not also be a consideration that a box joint has more
glue surface and that would counteract the mechanical advantage of a DT?

A box joint could have more have more glue surface or less depending on
whether the box fingers are smaller than the tails and pins.

Regardless of the answer to that, my opinion is that dovetails are much
prettier than box joints, and as someone also pointed out, neither an
Akeda nor Leigh jig is necessary to make them. I've made them with a cheap
saw and cheaper chisels - not Akeda quality and uniformity, to be sure,
but passable and sssstrong as hell.


I used to make a bunch on a Sears $39 DT jig back in the early 80's. ;~)



I'm doing a follow up to my own post. While my dovetails are now
passable, it was not without a certain amount of pain getting there. I
made a vow to make a set each day for 30 days and document how each one
didn't measure up until I got it right. I made it til about 15 days, and
then real life interrupted. Tage Frid taught a trick of using veneer to
cover up mistakes (his example was one piece of veneer for 4 gazillion
dovetails - I ended up using 14 pieces for 14 joints)

I've also had wood split when I was a bit too judicious in driving the
joints home with a mallet.

I once made pins for both sides of a joint (Gawd, don't ask me how I
managed that)

I've overcut and undercut, and made the tails too wide. I've made SURE
that one side of the board was to be outside and then cut pins that
meant that side had to face inside.

I've forgotten about glue squeeze-out on the inside of a joint until it
was the hardness of dried concrete and impossible to reach without a
team of ants with scary-sharp (*™) micro chisels (available from Lee
Valley at $98/set)

Damn. After reviewing all those little issues, that Akeda is starting to
sound pretty good. How can I get one again?

Tanus

"Tanus" wrote in message ...

I'm doing a follow up to my own post. While my dovetails are now passable,
it was not without a certain amount of pain getting there. I made a vow to
make a set each day for 30 days and document how each one didn't measure
up until I got it right. I made it til about 15 days, and then real life
interrupted. Tage Frid taught a trick of using veneer to cover up mistakes
(his example was one piece of veneer for 4 gazillion dovetails - I ended
up using 14 pieces for 14 joints)

I've also had wood split when I was a bit too judicious in driving the
joints home with a mallet.

I once made pins for both sides of a joint (Gawd, don't ask me how I
managed that)

I've overcut and undercut, and made the tails too wide. I've made SURE
that one side of the board was to be outside and then cut pins that meant
that side had to face inside.

I've forgotten about glue squeeze-out on the inside of a joint until it
was the hardness of dried concrete and impossible to reach without a team
of ants with scary-sharp (*™) micro chisels (available from Lee Valley at
$98/set)

Damn. After reviewing all those little issues, that Akeda is starting to
sound pretty good. How can I get one again?

Tanus


LOL. thanks for the laugh!

"John" wrote:

I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of
furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?


When you figure out a way to use a box joint to replace a half blind
dovetail for attaching a drawer front to a drawer side for example,
come on back and we'll talk some more.

BTW, built my box jigs for maybe $5 and that's pushing it.

Box joints have a lot of applications on a boat and can be very
attractive; however, when you need a dovetail..................

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...
When you figure out a way to use a box joint to replace a half blind
dovetail for attaching a drawer front to a drawer side for example, come
on back and we'll talk some more.


Actually I built a dozen small cubby boxes to hold little stuff in the
kitchen. I used a veneer on the fronts to hide the box joints.

"Leon" wrote:

Actually I built a dozen small cubby boxes to hold little stuff in
the kitchen. I used a veneer on the fronts to hide the box joints.


The operative word above is SMALL.

Lew

I agree - it seems to me that dovetail joints will be around for a
long time because of their aesthetic appeal.

On Jul 21, 4:36*pm, "Lowell Holmes" wrote:
"John" wrote in message

...



I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? *There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. *As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. *It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?

John

They will be used.

Dovetails can be made with a $20 saw and a $8 chisel.

I think box joints are strong and ugly. I think dovetails are strong and
attractive.

What is a Knapp joint?

"Leon" wrote

I used to make a bunch on a Sears $39 DT jig back in the early 80's. ;~)
It is hard to imagine that.

Was this before or after you got the Laguna, Festools, etc? G

Lew Hodgett wrote:

When you figure out a way to use a box joint to replace a half blind
dovetail for attaching a drawer front to a drawer side for example,
come on back and we'll talk some more.

It'd just an opinion, of course, but I kinda like half-blind box joints.
/Pinned/ half-blind box joints can be interesting, too - just leave the
pin standing when cutting the "blind" recess...



--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote

I used to make a bunch on a Sears $39 DT jig back in the early 80's. ;~)
It is hard to imagine that.

Was this before or after you got the Laguna, Festools, etc? G




Long long long long long long before the spensive stuff.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote:

Actually I built a dozen small cubby boxes to hold little stuff in the
kitchen. I used a veneer on the fronts to hide the box joints.


The operative word above is SMALL.

Lew



6" tall and about 6" wide out of 1/4" thick stock.

RicodJour wrote:

On Jul 21, 5:23Â*pm, John wrote:
I just read the post on the Akida Jig, and my first impression was
that it looks really cool, and easy to use, and is way out of my
budget (especailly when you add shipping).

But, I have to ask myself is there really a need for a $460 dovetail
jig these days? Â*There's been a lot of posts lately about how glue
joints are stronger than the wood, so the advantages of dovetail
joints to me seems dated now. Â*As far as I'm aware, box joints are
stronger, faster and cheaper than dovetails (I built a box-joint jig
for around $40. Â*It even has a clamp for sacrifical wood to prevent
tearout, which the dovetail jigs still don't seem to have...).

Learn to chop them by hand. DAGS "Frank Klausz dovetail" to see how
fast it can be done.*

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?

Dovetails will _absolutely_ stop being used...as soon as we run out of
wood, wood-substitutes and people who appreciate quality.

R

* Your speed may vary by -0/+1000%

... and the above is the operative word. I could work to do the dovetails
by hand, but one mis-cut and I've wasted a lot of time. Once a jig is set
up, while there is potential for error, it is minimized.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Well for starters dovetail joints look good and "right". I know that is purely
subjective, but I don't think I alone there. The machinery to make them is
readily available for high end mass production, cabinet shops, and the home
shop. They can even be made by hand. This indicates to me that they will be
around for a long time to come.

None of the above can be said about the Knapp joint.

Box joints meet most of the above but they just don't look right on
furniture to me. For utility use though they are fine. (IMHO.)
I don't see why one couldn't make a half blind box joint just as easily as a
half blind dovetail joint by using a similar template and router except using
a straight bit.
Art

"Artemus" wrote:

I don't see why one couldn't make a half blind box joint just as
easily as a
half blind dovetail joint by using a similar template and router
except using
a straight bit.

You could make the joint; however, you loose the wood to wood
interference and must depend on the shear strength of the adhesive
when on say a drawer, you pull on the front to open the drawer.

Lew

Leon wrote:
"Tanus" wrote in message ...

Regardless of the answer to that, my opinion is that dovetails are much
prettier than box joints, and as someone also pointed out, neither an
Akeda nor Leigh jig is necessary to make them. I've made them with a cheap
saw and cheaper chisels - not Akeda quality and uniformity, to be sure,
but passable and sssstrong as hell.

I used to make a bunch on a Sears $39 DT jig back in the early 80's. ;~)

Me too. I still have that jig and last time I used it, it worked fine.

As far as box joints vs DT joints... both have there place. My first
ever project was a 13 drawer work bench and my first ever drawers were
box joints. 35 years later and they not only look great on a work
bench, they are strong as hell, and will never fail other than if in a
fire or (big) explosion.

--
Jack
Public toilets vs private toilets, that is the question!
http://jbstein.com

So, are dovetails going to be a tell-tale sign of the age of furniture
the same way Knapp joints are now, or is there some reason that they
will continue to be used?


There is lots of precident in architecture/design previously functional
elements becomming a part of the aesthetic domain long after their origin
purpose became moot.

By analogy, hops used to be a beer presevative, now it's a required
flavoring.

I have no doubt that maufacturers will continue to mass-produce ineligantly
proportioned DT's obscured by epoxy-coated drawer slides in "cherry-finish"
kitchen cuboards.

For me, I don't think I will ever make a dovetail again for purely
functional reasons. I've cut them by hand and I have cut them with a jig.
I'm sure that I will do it for "heirloom" work (BTW, kitchen drawers to not
quality), but certainly would not bother anymore for a shop drawer.

A lock-rabbet in conjuction with a glued-in plywood bottom creates drawer
that would only come apart by smashing the drawer to bits. That's strong
enough for my needs, it presents face grain on the front and is a whole lot
quicker to execute.

-Steve

Lew Hodgett wrote:

When you figure out a way to use a box joint to replace a half blind
dovetail for attaching a drawer front to a drawer side for example,
come on back and we'll talk some more.

I don't see the problem. Use a router with a bit the size of the
desired fingers. Same mechanism as half-blind dovetails.

Not much point though except maybe on a really tiny box where you could
use a 1/8" straight bit for itty bitty fingers.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

When you figure out a way to use a box joint to replace a half blind
dovetail for attaching a drawer front to a drawer side for example,
come on back and we'll talk some more.

I don't see the problem. Use a router with a bit the size of the
desired fingers. Same mechanism as half-blind dovetails.

Not much point though except maybe on a really tiny box where you
could use a 1/8" straight bit for itty bitty fingers.

The problem with that approach is that the diameter of the router bit has to
be dead nuts accurate, which in my experience most of them aren't, or else
you need to do some fine tweaking on spacing to avoid a joint that is too
loose or too tight. With dovetails you can fine tune the fit with cut
depth, with box joints you don't have that option.

J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

When you figure out a way to use a box joint to replace a half blind
dovetail for attaching a drawer front to a drawer side for example,
come on back and we'll talk some more.

I don't see the problem. Use a router with a bit the size of the
desired fingers. Same mechanism as half-blind dovetails.

Not much point though except maybe on a really tiny box where you
could use a 1/8" straight bit for itty bitty fingers.

The problem with that approach is that the diameter of the router bit has to
be dead nuts accurate, which in my experience most of them aren't, or else
you need to do some fine tweaking on spacing to avoid a joint that is too
loose or too tight. With dovetails you can fine tune the fit with cut
depth, with box joints you don't have that option.

The Leigh jig uses an elliptical bushing and a bit smaller than the
desired finger size. You turn the router base slightly to adjust the fit.

Woodworking magazine used a pattern bit smaller than the desired finger
size and aluminum tape on the sides of the fingers to adjust the fit.

Chris

karmstrn wrote:
I agree - it seems to me that dovetail joints will be around for a
long time because of their aesthetic appeal.
....

Only if a long time is defined as "as long as wood is used for making
furniture"...

--

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...

The problem with that approach is that the diameter of the router bit has
to
be dead nuts accurate, which in my experience most of them aren't, or
else
you need to do some fine tweaking on spacing to avoid a joint that is too
loose or too tight. With dovetails you can fine tune the fit with cut
depth, with box joints you don't have that option.

The Leigh jig uses an elliptical bushing and a bit smaller than the
desired finger size. You turn the router base slightly to adjust the fit.

Actually you adjust the bushing slightly and keep the router orientated the
same for a repeatable cut.

I have to wonder however why they changed over to this set upas the D series
system used a tapered bushing. Rotating the router had no adverse effect on
the cut assuming the set up had the bit centered in the bushing.

"Jack Stein" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
"Tanus" wrote in message
...

Regardless of the answer to that, my opinion is that dovetails are much
prettier than box joints

.............. and they have been/can be elaborated on
http://tinyurl.com/2go9tv

Jeff, showing off.

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

Jeff Gorman wrote:


"Jack Stein" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
"Tanus" wrote in message
...

Regardless of the answer to that, my opinion is that dovetails are much
prettier than box joints

............. and they have been/can be elaborated on
http://tinyurl.com/2go9tv

Jeff, showing off.


OK, now you're just making the rest of us look bad. :-)

Nice job, neat effect.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough