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#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...65730&pn=65730 And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer- http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...90224&pn=90224 How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past, but not as big. Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set length. Thanks. Sonny |
#2
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 11, 8:11*pm, Sonny wrote:
Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. *To me, in the past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set length. No question, the biscuit joiner is a lot faster. Lay out you boards, mark a line every foot or so using your square, an go for it. But it might have a little more slop in the alignment as not all biscuits are created equal and you might move the machine an infinitesimal amount. I prefer to use cauls and clamps. Or you might consider the Lee Valley panel clamps & glue up a whole bunch at once. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...81&cat=1,43838 Luigi |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Sonny" wrote: How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router. A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20 biscuits. Lew |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Sonny" wrote: How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router. A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20 biscuits. Lew I use my biscuit slot cutter all the time, works like a charm. -- "You can lead them to LINUX but you can't make them THINK" Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586 Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/ |
#5
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ... "Sonny" wrote: How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router. A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20 biscuits. Lew Only good for th edges/ends of a board. Yo need a biscuit jointer if you want to have a shelf in the middle of a panel. |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
I Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router. A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20 biscuits. Lew ------------------------------------------------------ "Leon" wrote: ===================================== Only good for th edges/ends of a board. Yo need a biscuit jointer if you want to have a shelf in the middle of a panel. ================================== Read again. Think that 5/32" straight bit might be ueful for something? Lew |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
BTW, 1,200 bd ft will build a lot of entertainment center. Would love to see pics when done (or in process). RonB Last year, I inherited a partial woodshop and a shed of lumber.... about the same amount of cherry and, also, lots of white oak and walnut. Some of you may recall, back then, I had asked about an old 1950s Craftsman table saw and lathe. I did donate the table saw to a worthy cause. A machinist friend made an extension for the lathe bed, so now I can turn items nearly 8' long. I gave the old lathe cabinet (on wheels - custom made) to a local young woodworker. I re-wired the shaper (dry rotted wiring) and am debating keeping it or giving it. There is a work table (2 solid doors hinged together, ie., flip top), such that, not flipped, the table top work space is 30" X 7'. Flipping half of the top, opened to a 60" X 7' work surface.... pretty neat! I'm debating giving away this work table. Some time ago, I bought the house next door and have been remodeling it for a woodshop. Some of these inherited items don't fit my remodel/set-up ideas/plans. Actually, I've been looking at the cherry, also, so I'm not dead set on using the mahogany. I've pulled out about 300 bd ft of each and have been inspecting and trying to decide what might be best for the project. Most boards are 1" X 8" X 12' (some 14 & 16 footers) and many with coon/possum/roach/spider **** and other similar surface stains. A light planing has taken care of most of the stains. Today, I made 12 sets of panel clamps, 2" X 3" X 40" long to 60" long, so buying them won't be necessary. My widest (back) panel will be 50". I'm still debating buying a bisquit jointer. I've been looking at the slot cutters. I'll probably get both. I do have an inspiration picture, but I can't post on abpw. I can email the pic for those who want to see. Sonny |
#8
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ... "Sonny" wrote: How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router. A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20 biscuits. Lew Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done? Thank you |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"SBH" wrote: Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done? What part of a router bit doing it's job (cutting wood) do you need explained? Lew |
#10
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Lew Hodgett" wrote "SBH" wrote: Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done? What part of a router bit doing it's job (cutting wood) do you need explained? The router bit goes round and round, round and round, round and round. |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 15, 6:10*pm, "SBH" wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ... "Sonny" wrote: How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? *I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. *I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router. A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20 biscuits. Lew Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done? Thank you I think you 'll be able to find an explanation when you do a Google search. (Don't tell anybody, but the natives get a little cranky sometimes....) =0) |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Robatoy wrote:
: On Jul 15, 6:10*pm, "SBH" wrote: : "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message : : ... : : "Sonny" wrote: : : How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards : aligned, than is using dowels? *I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I : do have the dowel jig. *I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. : : You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router. : : A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20 : biscuits. : : Lew : : Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done? : : Thank you : I think you 'll be able to find an explanation when you do a Google : search. (Don't tell anybody, but the natives get a little cranky : sometimes....) : =0) Good suggestion, but the basics for the original poster a The advantage of a dedicated biscuit joiner are that you can put slots into the edge of a piece of wood or plywood (there is a fence that pivots down; fence is placed against the wide part of the board, and the spring-mounted joiner is pushed into the wood, cuting a slot), and the face of a piece of wood, by clamping a fence (i.e. another piece of wood) across the board, retracting the joiner's fence, and placing the joiner up against the board. You can do the same operations, but not quite as comfortably, with a plunge router (assuming you have one). For edge jointing, you use a bit that has a narrow, wide cutter (like an upside down T, with the upright part the shaft of the router bit), which cuts into the wood's edge. For slots in the middle of a board, you plunge a straight bit into the wood and move the router along a fence so it's the right length. Personally, I'd use a biscuit joiner if I have more than a few of these slots to cut. -- Andy Barss |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Peter Huebner wrote:
In article 04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938 @r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, says... I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past, but not as big. Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set length. If you're really slow and super-careful I am sure dowels will be more accurate - I can be really careful with bisquits and still sometimes get an alignment error of 1/2mm or so (that's around 0.02 inches). It cleans up with the minimal glue squeezeout. I have a doweling jig and used it once when I was a beginner ww, it sucked, was really hard to use. Then I used the table saw to run a grove and used a plywood spline, easier, but a pita. I then got a glue joint for my molding head, still a pita. I then learned joints simply need glued, no reason for dowels, splines or fancy glue joints. I never used a biscuit joiner but I've seen them in use and they look simple as all get out. On the other hand, I use clamps and cauls as needed and never had a problem. I just glue the stuff up and get joints just as accurate as you get with a biscuit jointer, and never once had a glue up failure. I guess if I were in a small production commercial shop, I would look into the biscuit thing in place of cauls? I know I see Norm and Scott on TV use about a hundred biscuits every couple of feet. I think the most I would need in an 8' glue up would be 4, which is about one more than should be needed? How warped is that wood? I guess if I spent $700+ on a biscuit joiner that wasn't needed for strength, and only lined things up a bit easier than using cauls, but not any better, I'd use the thing. Otherwise, spend the money on a bunch of various types of clamps of which you can never have too many and have at it:-) -- Jack Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/ http://jbstein.com |
#15
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 13, 11:00*am, Jack Stein wrote:
Peter Huebner wrote: In article 04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938 @r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, says... I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this project. *I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past, but not as big. Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. *To me, in the past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set length. If you're really slow and super-careful I am sure dowels will be more accurate - I can be really careful with bisquits and still sometimes get an alignment error of 1/2mm or so (that's around 0.02 inches). It cleans up with the minimal glue squeezeout. I have a doweling jig and used it once when I was a beginner ww, it sucked, was really hard to use. *Then I used the table saw to run a grove and used a plywood spline, easier, but a pita. *I then got a glue joint for my molding head, still a pita. *I then learned joints simply need glued, no reason for dowels, splines or fancy glue joints. I never used a biscuit joiner but I've seen them in use and they look simple as all get out. *On the other hand, I use clamps and cauls as needed and never had a problem. *I just glue the stuff up and get joints just as accurate as you get with a biscuit jointer, and never once had a glue up failure. I guess if I were in a small production commercial shop, I would look into the biscuit thing in place of cauls? *I know I see Norm and Scott on TV use about a hundred biscuits every couple of feet. *I think the most I would need in an 8' glue up would be 4, which is about one more than should be needed? *How warped is that wood? I guess if I spent $700+ on a biscuit joiner that wasn't needed for strength, and only lined things up a bit easier than using cauls, but not any better, I'd use the thing. *Otherwise, spend the money on a bunch of various types of clamps of which you can never have too many and have at it:-) -- Jack Using FREE News Server:http://www.eternal-september.org/http://jbstein.com- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My father has a biscuit jointer, and I borrowed it once for doing some edging. After a bit of trying, I found that no matter how careful I was, I ended up getting errors as often as not(about 1/2 mm or so), which added a lot of extra work. It might have been the model of biscuit jointer, or my inexperience, I don't know. In any case, I got out my router, and cut some splines. I got no error whatsoever after many edges, so that's my prefered method now. |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Sonny wrote:
Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig - http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...65730&pn=65730 And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer- http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...90224&pn=90224 How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past, but not as big. Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set length. Biscuits go very quickly, and the limited depth means that they can be used where dowels aren't really practical. On the other hand they shouldn't be used as a substitute for a mortise and tenon like dowels can. For limited production you can cut biscuit slots with a router and a slot cutter, but it's not nearly as convenient as using the purpose-made tool. |
#17
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? *I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. *I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this project. *I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past, but not as big. All I will do is vote with some of the previous posts. Biscuits are quick and do add some strength; but they do not guarantee smooth joints in themselves. You will still have to check joint smoothness or do some sanding/planing afterward. BTW, 1,200 bd ft will build a lot of entertainment center. Would love to see pics when done (or in process). RonB |
#18
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Sonny" wrote in message ... Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig - http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...65730&pn=65730 And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer- http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...90224&pn=90224 Snip The PlateJoiner will be less fussy with left and right alingment. It will also be a faster process. A warning however, alswys use the fence to index the plat joiner and have the edge/ end of the wood always hang over the end of the bence. This will help insure that the plate jointer does not rest on the table/bench top. Debris under the work piece and or plate joiner will throw off slot locations. |
#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 11, 11:11*pm, Sonny wrote:
Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9976&filter=65730&pn=65730 And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1309&filter=90224&pn=90224 How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? *I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. *I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this project. *I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past, but not as big. Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. *To me, in the past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set length. Thanks. Sonny Domino. Best of both worlds. |
#20
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 12, 3:35*pm, Angela Sekeris wrote:
On Jul 11, 11:11*pm, Sonny wrote: Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9976&filter=65730&pn=65730 And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1309&filter=90224&pn=90224 How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? *I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. *I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this project. *I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past, but not as big. Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. *To me, in the past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set length. Thanks. Sonny Domino. Best of both worlds. Buying me one? |
#21
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 12, 2:37*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Jul 12, 3:35*pm, Angela Sekeris wrote: Domino. Best of both worlds. Buying me one? Jeez.... I know you love to stir stuff up a bit, but let's not start sock puppet theater. ;^) We're watching, you know. Robert |
#22
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 13, 9:24*am, "
wrote: On Jul 12, 2:37*pm, Robatoy wrote: On Jul 12, 3:35*pm, Angela Sekeris wrote: Domino. Best of both worlds. Buying me one? Jeez.... I know you love to stir stuff up a bit, but let's not start sock puppet theater. * ;^) We're watching, you know. Robert LMAO!. The visual cracks me up. Angela started up something with Google, I'm not sure what. I plop my ass down in her study (adjacent to the kitchen) and go online while the green tea steeps. I don't always check who is logged in.... obviously. Her comment? "You talking to yourself now?" r |
#23
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Robatoy" wrote Her comment? "You talking to yourself now?" ========================== Well......., you rarely get into trouble talking to yourself. And people tend to leave you alone too. It is like buying presents for yourself. You always get what you want. No need to suggest or change topics. With yourself, you are always on topic. |
#24
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message Domino. Best of both worlds. Worst of the 'paying for it' world though. But, it's one of those things that exemplifies 'you get what you pay for'. Only real consideration is how often might it be used? If it's three or four times a year on relatively small jobs, then it's just not worth the cost IMHO. |
#25
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 12, 4:16*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message Domino. Best of both worlds. Only real consideration is how often might it be used? If it's three or four times a year on relatively small jobs, then it's just not worth the cost IMHO. A tool not worth the cost?????? You simply do not understand and are committing a serious heresy with those words. Do you really belong on the wreck or are you just trolling? :-) Luigi |
#26
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message ... Domino. Best of both worlds. Well, I was gunna say that but it is a bit more expensive. |
#27
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 12, 11:17*pm, "Leon" wrote:
"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message ... Domino. Best of both worlds. Well, * * * *I was gunna say that *but it is a bit more expensive. A good tool will (almost) always find a way for it to be used. I allows you to tackle jobs you might not have otherwise. (Mr. Watson, did you notice I inserted the *(almost)* nebulizer? Keeps the anal nit-picking ****s away from my nits. G) |
#28
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Leon wrote:
"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message ... Domino. Best of both worlds. Well, I was gunna say that but it is a bit more expensive. Unfortunately, it's probably not. Way back when the biscuit joiner was introduced, people were running around touting it as the best thing since sliced bread. Then everyone started using them and... they're just not. They're great for alignment, certainly, but they're really not going to add any strength to your joints and you can certainly do a lot better. Now the tool is ubiquitous. The same will be true of the Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen. In the end, the Domino will just be another piece of early-adopter junk, in a few years everyone will have their own versions out, you can pick a cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a faster way. |
#29
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen. Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker joints? |
#30
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 14, 2:34*am, "Upscale" wrote:
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message Domino. *Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! *Sure, but does it make them strong? *Not according to all the tests I've seen. Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker joints? EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength, and more. Scientific enough for me to prove that biscuits add strength. http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchi...abstract1.html |
#31
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Upscale wrote:
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen. Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker joints? Perhaps he meant strongER. Edge gluing long grain to make panels rather than using plywood is what the guy was asking about. It is well known today's glue makes long grain joints stronger than the wood itself. Ergo, the only purpose of dowels or biscuits in this type of joint is alignment, not strength. My experience is to just glue up the joint with no dowels, biscuits, splines or anything else is easy and sufficient. IF I had a nice biscuit joiner, I might use it sparingly to align things easily, but not for strength. It is also well known that end grain joints require more than glue, and need mortise and tenons, biscuits or dowels for strength. There is little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. The biscuit joint is a heck of a lot faster to make. Dowel joints suck and are difficult to make without the proper equipment, and the little dowel jigs sold at hardware stores ain't the proper equipment, in my limited experience. From watching all the tool salesman on TV, they seem to use biscuits mostly for edge gluing, and they use like a million of them on each edge, with glue squirting out everywhere. Really lame. Mortise and tenon is occasionally still used by Norm to sell the Delta mortiser I reckon, but Scott tends to use the Kreg Pocket hole machine for about everything. I do have the pocket hole thingee, also have a mortise machine. Not sure why the $700 Festool gadget is not used for this stuff, as it seems it's mainly what it's good for. -- Jack Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/ http://jbstein.com |
#32
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Upscale wrote:
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen. Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker joints? They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and look at the moment. |
#33
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:11:35 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote: Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig - http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...65730&pn=65730 And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer- http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...90224&pn=90224 How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer. I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past, but not as big. Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set length. Thanks. Sonny When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a glue line edge. I machine biscuit slots about two inches in from a line that coincides with what the finished ends will be and about every twelve inches throughout the length. I use one biscuit on the centerline for boards up to about 5/4 and a pair of biscuits set no less than 1/4 from the faces above that thickness. Here is where I differ from what some guys do: In my opinion, and it is only an opinion but it is based on observation and experience; I don't count on the biscuits for strength, I think the glue line provides the strength. I use the biscuits to reduce the clamp time so that I can have a quicker turn around time on the glued up panels. I also don't count on the biscuits for alignment, except in a very rough sense. I use a Lamello biscuit joiner and Lamello biscuits, which I believe to be more consistent in their properties than others that I have tried - and I still can't count on perfect alignment. So, what I do is drive finish nails into one edge of each of the boards , more or less in the center of the edge of the board and more or less on the centerline between the biscuit slots. Then I nip the heads off, leaving about a heavy eighth inch standing proud of the board edge. When I carefully assemble the boards together during a later step the pins will keep the boards even along their faces as I apply clamping pressure. It doesn't take very much time and it works. I almost always use cauls top and bottom - this provides my final check for flatness of the glue up - but the pins help avoid all the beating and hollering that too often goes on at this point. As always, YMMV Regards, Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ |
#34
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Jul 15, 10:36*am, Tom Watson wrote:
*I also don't count on the biscuits for alignment, except in a very rough sense. *I use a Lamello biscuit joiner and Lamello biscuits, which I believe to be more consistent in their properties than others that I have tried - and I still can't count on perfect alignment. *So, what I do is drive finish nails into one edge of each of the boards , more or less in the center of the edge of the board and more or less on the centerline between the biscuit slots. *Then I nip the heads off, leaving about a heavy eighth inch standing proud of the board edge. *When I carefully assemble the boards together during a later step the pins will keep the boards even along their faces as I apply clamping pressure. *It doesn't take very much time and it works. How do you get the pins to go into the spot that creates perfect alignment? The slightest pressure up or down could create an extremely shallow "V", resulting into slightly misaligned boards. I don't know if I'm explaining myself properly, but if you don't clamp with exact even pressure, you might get misaligned boars. I.e. What do you mean by "carefully assemble the boards together". I almost always use cauls top and bottom - this provides my final check for flatness of the glue up - but the pins help avoid all the beating and hollering that too often goes on at this point. I would think that the pins might create some beating and hollering rather than avoiding it. Sorry, I don't get it??? I am also happy to note that after a gazillion years of people saying that they use biscuits "for alignment" in panel glue ups, that everybody is fessing up that they actually cause a slight misalignment. So it's not only me or my biscuit joiner or my biscuits. :-) Luigi |
#35
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:28:15 -0700 (PDT), Luigi Zanasi
wrote: How do you get the pins to go into the spot that creates perfect alignment? The slightest pressure up or down could create an extremely shallow "V", resulting into slightly misaligned boards. I don't know if I'm explaining myself properly, but if you don't clamp with exact even pressure, you might get misaligned boars. I.e. What do you mean by "carefully assemble the boards together". I have the boards resting flat on the bottom cauls and I push them together, one at a time. It doesn't seem to be a problem in practice. I find that most misalignment problems show up when you try to clamp the panel assembly up. The way that I do this is to put both the top and bottom cauls in place and apply moderate pressure with the clamps that go on the cauls, with the intent of keeping the panel flat.. Then I apply the side clamping pressure. What I see too many guys do is apply the side pressure before the cauls are engaged in keeping stuff planar. Then, if they don't use pins, the joint lines creep and they have so much clamping pressure applied that the caul clamps have a hard time making up the difference. That's when most of the beating and hollering occurs. I am also happy to note that after a gazillion years of people saying that they use biscuits "for alignment" in panel glue ups, that everybody is fessing up that they actually cause a slight misalignment. So it's not only me or my biscuit joiner or my biscuits. :-) Well, it's true in a general sense. It is a lot easier to align a face frame to a carcase using biscuits than it is to just slap on some glue and try to clamp it up. Of course, you still need the judicious application of force to get things into final alignment. That's why I own a three pound dead blow. My goal is to get panels or assemblies like the face frame to carcase to line up good enough that a few scrapes with a cabinet scraper is all that is needed. Regards, Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ |
#36
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Luigi Zanasi wrote:
I am also happy to note that after a gazillion years of people saying that they use biscuits "for alignment" in panel glue ups, that everybody is fessing up that they actually cause a slight misalignment. So it's not only me or my biscuit joiner or my biscuits. :-) I find it amazing anyone even uses a biscuit joiner, let alone a $700 Festool domino? I always knew they were not needed in the least for strength in panel glue ups, but thought they would work nicely for alignment, but knew from experience I could glue up table tops and door panels easily with just clamps and cauls. I guess thats why I never bought one, but really, I like tools and could have talked myself into buying one eventually. This thread pretty much convinced me I don't need one at all. Sort of like a nail gun, I really, really want one (two), but have no use for it (them)... -- Jack Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/ http://jbstein.com |
#37
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Jack Stein" wrote in message ... Luigi Zanasi wrote: I find it amazing anyone even uses a biscuit joiner, let alone a $700 Festool domino? I always knew they were not needed in the least for strength in panel glue ups, but thought they would work nicely for alignment, but knew from experience I could glue up table tops and door panels easily with just clamps and cauls. LOL, No you certainly don't need any of them but they do make life easier and speed up production. Think about trading your TS in for a hand saw. ;~) The biscuit joiner is mostly helpful for alignment but does in deed add significant strength when gluing end grain. The biscuit adds strength to 45 degree mitered joints and to butt joints. I have had 2 biscuit joiners and eventually got the Domino. Now I have a machine that does what the biscuit joiner did and a machine that affords me the opportunity to quickly and easily make floating tennon joints which do indeed add lots of strength to any joint I guess thats why I never bought one, but really, I like tools and could have talked myself into buying one eventually. This thread pretty much convinced me I don't need one at all. Sort of like a nail gun, I really, really want one (two), but have no use for it (them)... ;~) I started with one finish nailer 20 years ago, I have added a palm nailer, brad nailer, air stapler, pinner, and framing nailer since. Can I do the work with out them? Absolutely. If one broke today would I replace it? Probably before the end of the day. It's one of those deals where you wonder how you did with out them after you start using them. The specialized tools open up more opportunities. |
#38
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
Tom Watson wrote:
When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a glue line edge. At this point, I definitely have no need for anything but glue, clamps and cauls. Hardly need cauls if everything is prepped to perfection. I machine biscuit slots about two inches in from a line that coincides with what the finished ends will be and about every twelve inches throughout the length. I use one biscuit on the centerline for boards up to about 5/4 and a pair of biscuits set no less than 1/4 from the faces above that thickness. Wow! Here is where I differ from what some guys do: In my opinion, and it is only an opinion but it is based on observation and experience; I don't count on the biscuits for strength, I think the glue line provides the strength. Yet you put one (or two) every 12"? I use the biscuits to reduce the clamp time so that I can have a quicker turn around time on the glued up panels. Not sure how that helps much, but OK. I generally do other things while the glue dries, and there is seldom enough time for me to get other stuff done. Also, if the glue isn't dry enough, I don't think I would depend on biscuits much to keep things together... I also don't count on the biscuits for alignment, except in a very rough sense. I use a Lamello biscuit joiner and Lamello biscuits, which I believe to be more consistent in their properties than others that I have tried - and I still can't count on perfect alignment. So then the whole purpose of biscuits is to reduce gluing time, because alignment ain't it, and strength ain't it? So, what I do is drive finish nails into one edge of each of the boards , more or less in the center of the edge of the board and more or less on the centerline between the biscuit slots. Then I nip the heads off, leaving about a heavy eighth inch standing proud of the board edge. When I carefully assemble the boards together during a later step the pins will keep the boards even along their faces as I apply clamping pressure. It doesn't take very much time and it works. Yes, that sounds like an idea. Personally, I like cauls and clamps, and really like as little metal as possible in my woodwork. I think the nail pins you use would be particularly useful if one had no planer, or sander to insure perfect equal thickness of the boards and needed one face flat, and the other could vary a bit. Then a domino, or pins would be helpful to get one flat face. I almost always use cauls top and bottom - this provides my final check for flatness of the glue up - but the pins help avoid all the beating and hollering that too often goes on at this point. A little beating and hollering gives a piece character, or at least keeps the wife and kids out of your way:-) -- Jack Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/ http://jbstein.com |
#39
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Jack Stein" wrote in message ... Tom Watson wrote: When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a glue line edge. At this point, I definitely have no need for anything but glue, clamps and cauls. Hardly need cauls if everything is prepped to perfection.. Jack consider also that when thinking about a joint even an edge joint we typically do not consider lthe board having a less than desirable edge. I work with a lot of red oak and the edge of a perfectly straight board may very well have grain that runs at an angle to the edge and eventually will open up on the edge of the board. It is true that glue is most often stronger than the wood itself so the joint line is unlikely to break. BUT the wood itself is often weaker than the glue line and the extra tennon and or biscuit in that joint adds strength to the board in from the joint line . I have seen glued up boards break right beside the joint line along a weak grain line. The better tennon or biscuit will help to reinforce the weaker areas of of the board near the joint line. |
#40
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Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
"Jack Stein" wrote in message
... Tom Watson wrote: When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a glue line edge. At this point, I definitely have no need for anything but glue, clamps and cauls. Hardly need cauls if everything is prepped to perfection. I machine biscuit slots about two inches in from a line that coincides with what the finished ends will be and about every twelve inches throughout the length. I use one biscuit on the centerline for boards up to about 5/4 and a pair of biscuits set no less than 1/4 from the faces above that thickness. Wow! Here is where I differ from what some guys do: In my opinion, and it is only an opinion but it is based on observation and experience; I don't count on the biscuits for strength, I think the glue line provides the strength. Yet you put one (or two) every 12"? It's for face alignment during the glue up, not strength afterward. There's nothing scientific about it. For an edge joint 3' or 4' long, 3 biscuits "feels" too few; 4 biscuits works out to about a foot or so between each; 5 feels a bit over done. |
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