Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...65730&pn=65730

And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...90224&pn=90224

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
but not as big.

Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the
past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
length.

Thanks.
Sonny

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 11, 8:11*pm, Sonny wrote:
Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. *To me, in the
past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
length.

No question, the biscuit joiner is a lot faster. Lay out you boards,
mark a line every foot or so using your square, an go for it. But it
might have a little more slop in the alignment as not all biscuits are
created equal and you might move the machine an infinitesimal amount.
I prefer to use cauls and clamps.

Or you might consider the Lee Valley panel clamps & glue up a whole
bunch at once.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...81&cat=1,43838

Luigi

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Sonny" wrote:

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but
I
do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.

A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for
#20 biscuits.

Lew

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Lew Hodgett wrote:


"Sonny" wrote:

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but
I
do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.

A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for
#20 biscuits.

Lew
I use my biscuit slot cutter all the time, works like a charm.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

In article 04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938
@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, says...
Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...65730&pn=65730

And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...90224&pn=90224

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
but not as big.

Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the
past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
length.

Thanks.
Sonny


If you're really slow and super-careful I am sure dowels will be more
accurate - I can be really careful with bisquits and still sometimes get
an alignment error of 1/2mm or so (that's around 0.02 inches). It cleans
up with the minimal glue squeezeout.

However, bisquits are MUCH faster once you get to know some tricks, I'd
say by a factor of 10 or more (that is, I used to have locator jigs for
dowels but no drilling jig), and (good) bisquits are also considerably
stronger i.m.o.. Ever seen a chair or cheap table where dowels have
broken out the stretchers? Doesn't happen with bisquits. No way would I
go back to using dowels because of that alone. N O W A Y. It's the
way forces and leverages act on dowels and get transmitted back to the
board they're in. Not an issue with making panels, I grant you.

B.t.w. there's bisquits and then there's bisquits. I once ordered a box
of Lamello bisquits (compressed beech hardwood, manufactured to very
high standards) and got given some cheap pine ones instead --- I
foolishly accepted the delivery but in the end I gave that box away
after using about 20 or 50 of the sloppy uneven horrid things. (BIX
brand).

Makita and Lamello bisquit joiners are both very good, no idea about
other brands like PC; they're not sold here. Don't get a cheap knock-
off, but you knew that ;-) Friend tried to save some money and nearly
lost his thumb because of a design flaw. Couple of months' worth of
involuntary holiday resulted ... he's got a Lamello now.

-P.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Sonny wrote:
Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...65730&pn=65730

And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...90224&pn=90224

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
but not as big.

Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the
past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
length.

Biscuits go very quickly, and the limited depth means that they can be used
where dowels aren't really practical. On the other hand they shouldn't be
used as a substitute for a mortise and tenon like dowels can.

For limited production you can cut biscuit slots with a router and a slot
cutter, but it's not nearly as convenient as using the purpose-made tool.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? *I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
do have the dowel jig. *I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
project. *I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
but not as big.


All I will do is vote with some of the previous posts. Biscuits are
quick and do add some strength; but they do not guarantee smooth
joints in themselves. You will still have to check joint smoothness
or do some sanding/planing afterward.

BTW, 1,200 bd ft will build a lot of entertainment center. Would love
to see pics when done (or in process).

RonB

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Sonny" wrote:

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.

A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20
biscuits.

Lew


Only good for th edges/ends of a board. Yo need a biscuit jointer if you
want to have a shelf in the middle of a panel.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Sonny" wrote in message
...
Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...65730&pn=65730

And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...90224&pn=90224

Snip


The PlateJoiner will be less fussy with left and right alingment. It will
also be a faster process.
A warning however, alswys use the fence to index the plat joiner and have
the edge/ end of the wood always hang over the end of the bence. This will
help insure that the plate jointer does not rest on the table/bench top.
Debris under the work piece and or plate joiner will throw off slot
locations.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 11, 11:11*pm, Sonny wrote:
Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9976&filter=65730&pn=65730

And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1309&filter=90224&pn=90224

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? *I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
do have the dowel jig. *I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
project. *I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
but not as big.

Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. *To me, in the
past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
length.

Thanks.
Sonny

Domino. Best of both worlds.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 12, 3:35*pm, Angela Sekeris wrote:
On Jul 11, 11:11*pm, Sonny wrote:





Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9976&filter=65730&pn=65730

And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1309&filter=90224&pn=90224

How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
aligned, than is using dowels? *I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
do have the dowel jig. *I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
project. *I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
but not as big.

Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. *To me, in the
past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
length.

Thanks.
Sonny

Domino. Best of both worlds.

Buying me one?

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

I Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.

A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered
for #20 biscuits.

Lew
------------------------------------------------------

"Leon" wrote:
=====================================
Only good for th edges/ends of a board. Yo need a biscuit jointer
if you want to have a shelf in the middle of a panel.
==================================

Read again.

Think that 5/32" straight bit might be ueful for something?

Lew

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

BTW, 1,200 bd ft will build a lot of entertainment center. Would love
to see pics when done (or in process).


RonB

Last year, I inherited a partial woodshop and a shed of lumber....
about the same amount of cherry and, also, lots of white oak and
walnut. Some of you may recall, back then, I had asked about an old
1950s Craftsman table saw and lathe. I did donate the table saw to a
worthy cause. A machinist friend made an extension for the lathe bed,
so now I can turn items nearly 8' long. I gave the old lathe cabinet
(on wheels - custom made) to a local young woodworker. I re-wired the
shaper (dry rotted wiring) and am debating keeping it or giving it.
There is a work table (2 solid doors hinged together, ie., flip top),
such that, not flipped, the table top work space is 30" X 7'.
Flipping half of the top, opened to a 60" X 7' work surface.... pretty
neat! I'm debating giving away this work table. Some time ago, I
bought the house next door and have been remodeling it for a
woodshop. Some of these inherited items don't fit my remodel/set-up
ideas/plans.

Actually, I've been looking at the cherry, also, so I'm not dead set
on using the mahogany. I've pulled out about 300 bd ft of each and
have been inspecting and trying to decide what might be best for the
project. Most boards are 1" X 8" X 12' (some 14 & 16 footers) and
many with coon/possum/roach/spider **** and other similar surface
stains. A light planing has taken care of most of the stains.

Today, I made 12 sets of panel clamps, 2" X 3" X 40" long to 60" long,
so buying them won't be necessary. My widest (back) panel will be
50". I'm still debating buying a bisquit jointer. I've been looking
at the slot cutters. I'll probably get both.

I do have an inspiration picture, but I can't post on abpw. I can
email the pic for those who want to see.

Sonny

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message
Domino. Best of both worlds.

Worst of the 'paying for it' world though. But, it's one of those things
that exemplifies 'you get what you pay for'. Only real consideration is how
often might it be used? If it's three or four times a year on relatively
small jobs, then it's just not worth the cost IMHO.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message
...

Domino. Best of both worlds.


Well, I was gunna say that but it is a bit more expensive.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 12, 2:37*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Jul 12, 3:35*pm, Angela Sekeris wrote:


Domino. Best of both worlds.

Buying me one?

Jeez.... I know you love to stir stuff up a bit, but let's not start
sock puppet theater.

;^)

We're watching, you know.

Robert

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 13, 9:24*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 12, 2:37*pm, Robatoy wrote:

On Jul 12, 3:35*pm, Angela Sekeris wrote:
Domino. Best of both worlds.

Buying me one?

Jeez.... I know you love to stir stuff up a bit, but let's not start
sock puppet theater.

* ;^)

We're watching, you know.

Robert

LMAO!. The visual cracks me up.

Angela started up something with Google, I'm not sure what. I plop my
ass down in her study (adjacent to the kitchen) and go online while
the green tea steeps.
I don't always check who is logged in.... obviously.

Her comment?

"You talking to yourself now?"

r

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Robatoy" wrote

Her comment?

"You talking to yourself now?"
==========================

Well......., you rarely get into trouble talking to yourself. And people
tend to leave you alone too.

It is like buying presents for yourself. You always get what you want. No
need to suggest or change topics. With yourself, you are always on topic.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Peter Huebner wrote:
In article 04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938
@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, says...

I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
but not as big.

Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the
past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
length.

If you're really slow and super-careful I am sure dowels will be more
accurate - I can be really careful with bisquits and still sometimes get
an alignment error of 1/2mm or so (that's around 0.02 inches). It cleans
up with the minimal glue squeezeout.

I have a doweling jig and used it once when I was a beginner ww, it
sucked, was really hard to use. Then I used the table saw to run a
grove and used a plywood spline, easier, but a pita. I then got a glue
joint for my molding head, still a pita. I then learned joints simply
need glued, no reason for dowels, splines or fancy glue joints.

I never used a biscuit joiner but I've seen them in use and they look
simple as all get out. On the other hand, I use clamps and cauls as
needed and never had a problem. I just glue the stuff up and get joints
just as accurate as you get with a biscuit jointer, and never once had a
glue up failure. I guess if I were in a small production commercial
shop, I would look into the biscuit thing in place of cauls? I know I
see Norm and Scott on TV use about a hundred biscuits every couple of
feet. I think the most I would need in an 8' glue up would be 4, which
is about one more than should be needed? How warped is that wood?

I guess if I spent $700+ on a biscuit joiner that wasn't needed for
strength, and only lined things up a bit easier than using cauls, but
not any better, I'd use the thing. Otherwise, spend the money on a
bunch of various types of clamps of which you can never have too many
and have at it:-)

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Lee Michaels" wrote in
:


Well......., you rarely get into trouble talking to yourself. And
people tend to leave you alone too.

It is like buying presents for yourself. You always get what you
want. No need to suggest or change topics. With yourself, you are
always on topic.


If you argue with yourself, don't forget the other guy's an idiot. :-)

Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 13, 11:00*am, Jack Stein wrote:
Peter Huebner wrote:
In article 04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938
@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, says...
I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
project. *I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
but not as big.

Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. *To me, in the
past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
length.
If you're really slow and super-careful I am sure dowels will be more
accurate - I can be really careful with bisquits and still sometimes get
an alignment error of 1/2mm or so (that's around 0.02 inches). It cleans
up with the minimal glue squeezeout.

I have a doweling jig and used it once when I was a beginner ww, it
sucked, was really hard to use. *Then I used the table saw to run a
grove and used a plywood spline, easier, but a pita. *I then got a glue
joint for my molding head, still a pita. *I then learned joints simply
need glued, no reason for dowels, splines or fancy glue joints.

I never used a biscuit joiner but I've seen them in use and they look
simple as all get out. *On the other hand, I use clamps and cauls as
needed and never had a problem. *I just glue the stuff up and get joints
just as accurate as you get with a biscuit jointer, and never once had a
glue up failure. I guess if I were in a small production commercial
shop, I would look into the biscuit thing in place of cauls? *I know I
see Norm and Scott on TV use about a hundred biscuits every couple of
feet. *I think the most I would need in an 8' glue up would be 4, which
is about one more than should be needed? *How warped is that wood?

I guess if I spent $700+ on a biscuit joiner that wasn't needed for
strength, and only lined things up a bit easier than using cauls, but
not any better, I'd use the thing. *Otherwise, spend the money on a
bunch of various types of clamps of which you can never have too many
and have at it:-)

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server:http://www.eternal-september.org/http://jbstein.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My father has a biscuit jointer, and I borrowed it once for doing some
edging. After a bit of trying, I found that no matter how careful I
was, I ended up getting errors as often as not(about 1/2 mm or so),
which added a lot of extra work. It might have been the model of
biscuit jointer, or my inexperience, I don't know. In any case, I got
out my router, and cut some splines. I got no error whatsoever after
many edges, so that's my prefered method now.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 12, 4:16*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message
Domino. Best of both worlds.

Only real consideration is how often might it be used? If it's three
or four times a year on relatively small jobs, then it's just not
worth the cost IMHO.

A tool not worth the cost??????

You simply do not understand and are committing a serious heresy with
those words. Do you really belong on the wreck or are you just
trolling?

:-)

Luigi

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 12, 11:17*pm, "Leon" wrote:
"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message

...

Domino. Best of both worlds.

Well, * * * *I was gunna say that *but it is a bit more expensive.

A good tool will (almost) always find a way for it to be used. I
allows you to tackle jobs you might not have otherwise.

(Mr. Watson, did you notice I inserted the *(almost)* nebulizer? Keeps
the anal nit-picking ****s away from my nits. G)

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Leon wrote:
"Angela Sekeris" wrote in message
...

Domino. Best of both worlds.


Well, I was gunna say that but it is a bit more expensive.

Unfortunately, it's probably not. Way back when the biscuit joiner was
introduced, people were running around touting it as the best thing
since sliced bread. Then everyone started using them and... they're
just not. They're great for alignment, certainly, but they're really
not going to add any strength to your joints and you can certainly do a
lot better. Now the tool is ubiquitous. The same will be true of the
Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.

In the end, the Domino will just be another piece of early-adopter junk,
in a few years everyone will have their own versions out, you can pick a
cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our
own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a
faster way.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.

Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
joints?

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

On Jul 14, 2:34*am, "Upscale" wrote:
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
Domino. *Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! *Sure, but does it
make them strong? *Not according to all the tests I've seen.

Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
joints?

EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength,
and more.
Scientific enough for me to prove that biscuits add strength.

http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchi...abstract1.html

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Upscale wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message
EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength,
and more.

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our
own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a
faster way.

NOT biscuits. Documentation that Domino joints are weaker and not a better
way.

FWW did a pretty comprehensive set of joint style/fit/glues test a year
or two ago at the lab at (iirc) Case Western.

I _believe_ I remember that loose tenons came in _slightly_ behind
integral ones; not greatly, but a little iirc.

--

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Jack Stein wrote:
....
... There is
little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a
properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. ...

I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the
biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...

OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
included biscuits--I don't recall.

--

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Jack Stein wrote:
...
... There is little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is
comparable to a properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. ...

I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the
biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...

OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
included biscuits--I don't recall.

Biscuits came out far worse than loose tenons. Loose tenons in turn are
slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker than real tenons. He tested
both initial failure and residual strength after first failure.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

dpb wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:
...
... There is
little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a
properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. ...

I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the
biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...

OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
included biscuits--I don't recall.

A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a biscuit
joint do that?

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

"Robatoy" wrote in message
EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength,
and more.

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our
own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a
faster way.

NOT biscuits. Documentation that Domino joints are weaker and not a better
way.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

MikeWhy wrote:
....
Biscuits came out far worse than loose tenons. Loose tenons in turn are
slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker than real tenons. He
tested both initial failure and residual strength after first failure.

That's exactly what one would expect given the mechanical differences
between them--and I was pretty sure I remembered the test results
confirming it for the two m&ts, but didn't remember whether the biscuits
were included in that set of testing or not.

I'd never think of using them for the purpose for anything other than
simply holding a face frame together or some other similar non-critical,
non-stressed location.

--

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Upscale wrote:
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.

Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
joints?

Perhaps he meant strongER. Edge gluing long grain to make panels rather
than using plywood is what the guy was asking about. It is well known
today's glue makes long grain joints stronger than the wood itself.
Ergo, the only purpose of dowels or biscuits in this type of joint is
alignment, not strength. My experience is to just glue up the joint
with no dowels, biscuits, splines or anything else is easy and
sufficient. IF I had a nice biscuit joiner, I might use it sparingly to
align things easily, but not for strength.

It is also well known that end grain joints require more than glue, and
need mortise and tenons, biscuits or dowels for strength. There is
little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a
properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. The biscuit joint is a heck of
a lot faster to make. Dowel joints suck and are difficult to make
without the proper equipment, and the little dowel jigs sold at hardware
stores ain't the proper equipment, in my limited experience.

From watching all the tool salesman on TV, they seem to use biscuits
mostly for edge gluing, and they use like a million of them on each
edge, with glue squirting out everywhere. Really lame.

Mortise and tenon is occasionally still used by Norm to sell the Delta
mortiser I reckon, but Scott tends to use the Kreg Pocket hole machine
for about everything. I do have the pocket hole thingee, also have a
mortise machine. Not sure why the $700 Festool gadget is not used for
this stuff, as it seems it's mainly what it's good for.

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
included biscuits--I don't recall.

A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a biscuit
joint do that?



That's a silly question. You would never use a biscuit w/o glue. Biscuits
are compressed at manufacture so that the glue will expand them for a tight
fit upon *proper* installation.

So... you are asking how well a product performs when improperly installed.

By contrast the M&T joint was designed before the invention of modern glue.
Back in the day, when glue could be expected to fail over time, that was a
real consideration.

-Steve

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

StephenM wrote:
OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
included biscuits--I don't recall.

A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a
biscuit joint do that?



That's a silly question. You would never use a biscuit w/o glue.
Biscuits are compressed at manufacture so that the glue will expand
them for a tight fit upon *proper* installation.

So... you are asking how well a product performs when improperly
installed.

Google "rhetorical question".

By contrast the M&T joint was designed before the invention of modern
glue. Back in the day, when glue could be expected to fail over time,
that was a real consideration.

ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat surprise
coming.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Upscale wrote:
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.

Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
joints?

They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not
mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did
not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and
look at the moment.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat surprise
coming.

I never say never

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

StephenM wrote:
ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat
surprise coming.

I never say never

When rely on glue and glue alone to hold up someone you care about, you
_are_ saying "never". And if your wife or mother ends up with a chair leg
up her butt because you made the chair with biscuits instead of dowels or
mortise and tenon then you will never hear the end of it.

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

Brian Henderson wrote:
: Upscale wrote:
: "Brian Henderson" wrote in message
: Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
: make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.
:
: Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
: joints?

: They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not
: mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did
: not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and
: look at the moment.

Their initial 2007 review was extremely positive:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/ar..._From_Festool/

They also gave it a "best new tool" award a couple of years ago.


I couldn't find a strength test (or more recent review) on their site.

-- Andy Barss

Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig
 

J. Clarke wrote:
StephenM wrote:
ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat
surprise coming.
I never say never

When rely on glue and glue alone to hold up someone you care about, you
_are_ saying "never". And if your wife or mother ends up with a chair leg
up her butt because you made the chair with biscuits instead of dowels or
mortise and tenon then you will never hear the end of it.

Most modern glues are stronger than the woods we use them on, if
something fails, it's invariably the wood, not the glue itself.
Therefore, the consideration, as you point out, is the joints we use, we
cannot put forces on the joints that exceed their breaking strength and
far too many people overestimate the strength of joints because they're
fast or easy. The best joints are always going to be integral M&T and
dovetail, I wouldn't risk anything ending up my wife's backside by using
less.