I have a relatively cheap 8 gallon compressor but still would like to
run some air supply lines including to avoid having to drag the
compressor along:
- 1 to central workbench area (20 ft)
- 1 to top of garage bulkhead (40 ft) to facilitate outdoor projects
and filling bicycle or car tires

- What piping material should I use? (copper? plastic? rubber?)
- What diameter piping would be best given length of run and size of
compressor?

"blueman" wrote in message
...
I have a relatively cheap 8 gallon compressor but still would like to
run some air supply lines including to avoid having to drag the
compressor along:
- 1 to central workbench area (20 ft)
- 1 to top of garage bulkhead (40 ft) to facilitate outdoor projects
and filling bicycle or car tires

- What piping material should I use? (copper? plastic? rubber?)
- What diameter piping would be best given length of run and size of
compressor?

Copper if price is no object. Black pipe if price *is* important.

Max

"blueman" wrote in message
...
I have a relatively cheap 8 gallon compressor but still would like to
run some air supply lines including to avoid having to drag the
compressor along:
- 1 to central workbench area (20 ft)
- 1 to top of garage bulkhead (40 ft) to facilitate outdoor projects
and filling bicycle or car tires

- What piping material should I use? (copper? plastic? rubber?)
- What diameter piping would be best given length of run and size of
compressor?

Actually the rubber hose would work and probably be the easiest to install.
Or the cheaper air hose from HD, IIRC $20 for 100' with male ends.

On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:08:40 -0400, blueman wrote:

Anything but PVC for the material.

No one addressed the size, yet, but here are my thoughts on it. For
the short run, it doesn't make much difference. Anything from 1/4" on
up will work. As you get into the longer runs, the smaller sizes wind
up hurting you in the flow department (CFM), even if you are able to
keep a reasonable pressure. And an 8 gallon compressor is unlikely to
get you more than 100 PSI (not because it's 8 gallons, but because
compressors with 8 gallon tanks usually don't have a lot of oomph),
and a longer run at small diameter will be something less than that.
Okay for sprayers--not so hot for bike tires.

The thing about the longer run, is that it winds up being a storage
manifold as well as a delivery manifold, and if you use 3/4" or 1"
pipe, you can effectively increase the capacity of your compressor.

For example (and assuming my math is right--I'm sure someone will
check it), 3/4" pipe has a cross-sectional area of .4415 in^2 and
consequently, a volume of 5.29 in^3 per foot. A 40' run, then, would
have 211.95 in^3, or approximately .9 gallon.

Similarly, a 1" pipe has a cross section nearly double 3/4" (.785
in^2) and a volume of 9.42 in^3 per foot. Your 40' run yields more
than 1½ gallons (1.63) in 1".

Note that that extra storage applies to both the outlet at the end of
the 40' run and the end of the shorter run--it's in the system.

- What piping material should I use? (copper? plastic? rubber?)
- What diameter piping would be best given length of run and size of
compressor?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"blueman" wrote in message
...
I have a relatively cheap 8 gallon compressor but still would like to
run some air supply lines including to avoid having to drag the
compressor along:
- 1 to central workbench area (20 ft)
- 1 to top of garage bulkhead (40 ft) to facilitate outdoor projects
and filling bicycle or car tires

- What piping material should I use? (copper? plastic? rubber?)
- What diameter piping would be best given length of run and size of
compressor?

The larger the pipe the more storage you have, but it also takes longer to
come up to pressure.

Do NOT use PVC. It is a danger and prohibited in industry by OSHA as it can
explode and make shard of plastic flying around.

Copper is the easiest to work with, but copper prices are high. I'd look at
buying some 3/4" air hose for the long run, 1/2" for the short run.

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 22:26:37 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"blueman" wrote in message
...
I have a relatively cheap 8 gallon compressor but still would like to
run some air supply lines including to avoid having to drag the
compressor along:
- 1 to central workbench area (20 ft)
- 1 to top of garage bulkhead (40 ft) to facilitate outdoor projects
and filling bicycle or car tires

- What piping material should I use? (copper? plastic? rubber?)
- What diameter piping would be best given length of run and size of
compressor?

The larger the pipe the more storage you have, but it also takes longer to
come up to pressure.

Do NOT use PVC. It is a danger and prohibited in industry by OSHA as it can
explode and make shard of plastic flying around.

Copper is the easiest to work with, but copper prices are high. I'd look at
buying some 3/4" air hose for the long run, 1/2" for the short run.

I'd say don't waste your money on hose. Bite the bullet and put in the
copper now, rather tahan later. Or do it in black pipe or galvanized
water pipe if you are a masochist
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

blueman wrote in :

*snip*

- What piping material should I use? (copper? plastic? rubber?)
- What diameter piping would be best given length of run and size of
compressor?

Just a somewhat random question... Has anyone given any thought to using
Pex? You know, that stuff that's replacing copper for water piping in new
construction?

Just a thought...

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

LRod writes:
On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:08:40 -0400, blueman wrote:

Anything but PVC for the material.

No one addressed the size, yet, but here are my thoughts on it. For
the short run, it doesn't make much difference. Anything from 1/4" on
up will work. As you get into the longer runs, the smaller sizes wind
up hurting you in the flow department (CFM), even if you are able to
keep a reasonable pressure. And an 8 gallon compressor is unlikely to
get you more than 100 PSI (not because it's 8 gallons, but because
compressors with 8 gallon tanks usually don't have a lot of oomph),
and a longer run at small diameter will be something less than that.
Okay for sprayers--not so hot for bike tires.

The thing about the longer run, is that it winds up being a storage
manifold as well as a delivery manifold, and if you use 3/4" or 1"
pipe, you can effectively increase the capacity of your compressor.

For example (and assuming my math is right--I'm sure someone will
check it), 3/4" pipe has a cross-sectional area of .4415 in^2 and
consequently, a volume of 5.29 in^3 per foot. A 40' run, then, would
have 211.95 in^3, or approximately .9 gallon.

Similarly, a 1" pipe has a cross section nearly double 3/4" (.785
in^2) and a volume of 9.42 in^3 per foot. Your 40' run yields more
than 1½ gallons (1.63) in 1".

Note that that extra storage applies to both the outlet at the end of
the 40' run and the end of the shorter run--it's in the system.


Thanks for the detailed exposition!
So, I guess I'm thinking of biting the bullet and using copper. I'm
trying to decide now between 1/2" and 3/4" (while I appreciate the
extra manifold capicty of 1", I'm not sure it is worth the extra cost
or bulk).

- Would I see much difference between 1/2 and 3/4"?
i.e. Would it be "penny wise, pound foolish to put in 1/2" now just
to save a few tens of dollars on copper piping and fittings?

- Would type 'L' be preferable to type 'M' or is type 'M' good enough
for air at pressures of 90-125PSI?

Now I know from simple geometry that 3/4" has a tad more than twice
the area of 1/2" but I'm not sure of how to do the Ohm's law type math
to see what type of pressure drop I would be seeing with 1/2" vs. 3/4"
for typical uses.

Assume average pressure of 100PSI at the tank with an average steady
state 4 CFM.

"Edwin Pawlowski" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
I have a relatively cheap 8 gallon compressor but still would like to
run some air supply lines including to avoid having to drag the
compressor along:
- 1 to central workbench area (20 ft)
- 1 to top of garage bulkhead (40 ft) to facilitate outdoor projects
and filling bicycle or car tires

- What piping material should I use? (copper? plastic? rubber?)
- What diameter piping would be best given length of run and size of
compressor?

The larger the pipe the more storage you have, but it also takes longer to
come up to pressure.

Do NOT use PVC. It is a danger and prohibited in industry by OSHA as it can
explode and make shard of plastic flying around.


If I want to make up a short (1-2') section of flexible hose to go
from the compressor to the fixed pipe run, can I make (or buy) a short
run out of easily accessible materials? (i.e. what types of hose
material and what type of fittings)

Copper is the easiest to work with, but copper prices are high. I'd look at
buying some 3/4" air hose for the long run, 1/2" for the short run.

RE Subject

For a small shop, use 1 black iron pipe, pitched 1/4/ft with a derain
petcock at the low point.

Buy 1 nipples, 60" lg, then couple together with 1x1x1 tees.

Bush down side tapwith 1x1/2 reducer bushings.

Assemble with side tap facing up, then use 2, 1/2" street ells to turn
180 degrees to point down.

Hang hose from street ell

Isolate pipe from compressor with a 3-6 ft 3/4" rubber hose.

Have fun.

Lew

"blueman" wrote in message
...


If I want to make up a short (1-2') section of flexible hose to go
from the compressor to the fixed pipe run, can I make (or buy) a short
run out of easily accessible materials? (i.e. what types of hose
material and what type of fittings)


Whips are commonly available. They come with the ends attached and are far
superior to trying to make your own. Cheap too. If you have a Harbor
Freight near you, just pick one up there. By the looks of some of your
questions ("what types of hose material and what type of fittings"), it
appears you're not too familiar with what's out there. I suggest you head
out and take a look at what is on the market. You'll answer more of your
questions with a quick look than you'd think.

As for your pipe diameter - just go with 3/4" all over and you'll be fine.
No need to step down at some distance as you'll likely never be using air in
two places at the same time where you really need to worry about even
pressure at each location. Do put in water drops as previously suggested.

--

-Mike-

On Aug 6, 12:05 pm, LRod wrote:
On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:08:40 -0400, blueman wrote:

Anything but PVC for the material.


I'm sure there are stats and such to back this up, but personal
experience says "bunk."

We used 3/4" SCH40 White PVC piping all over our shop with drop/drain
lines at every "wall outlet" to collect and allow us to drain the
moisture.

We used a big old eighty-gallon unit with a 5HP motor and heavy-duty
two-stage compressor we got from a body shop that closed down.

We're talking nearly ten years of use w/o issues and moved the system
to a new warehouse where its been doing nicely for seven more years.

We run air tools and spray materials.

I've heard this "No PVC" stand before - but no practical experience
with issues that would preclude its use.

Surely his **** ant compressor would put less strain on the piping
than our setup.

As for the HFT tubing solution - it strikes me that, if you ran it so
as to be able to "pull" it out in case of a problem, it might be fine
for this application (although the CFM /air flow would be impacted.
But I use about 100' feet of it with my air nailers off a Portable PC
w/o issues. BTW, the 3/4" PVC provides extra storage - like adding a
second tank.

Enjoy

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"blueman" wrote in message
...


If I want to make up a short (1-2') section of flexible hose to go
from the compressor to the fixed pipe run, can I make (or buy) a short
run out of easily accessible materials? (i.e. what types of hose
material and what type of fittings)


Whips are commonly available. They come with the ends attached and are
far superior to trying to make your own. Cheap too. If you have a Harbor
Freight near you, just pick one up there. By the looks of some of your
questions ("what types of hose material and what type of fittings"), it
appears you're not too familiar with what's out there. I suggest you head
out and take a look at what is on the market. You'll answer more of your
questions with a quick look than you'd think.

As for your pipe diameter - just go with 3/4" all over and you'll be fine.
No need to step down at some distance as you'll likely never be using air
in two places at the same time where you really need to worry about even
pressure at each location. Do put in water drops as previously suggested.

--

-Mike-


big boxes also sell air hose in bulk. a couple of fittings and hose clamps
would also work.

According to a catalog I have, Schedule 80 PVC is good for a max of 200psi.
The media should not matter since it is at ambient temp.

Whatever is purchased off the shelf should have a psi rating on it.

Before hauling rigid pipe though, I would look at what he is runing.

He might be able to get by with pulling a 3/8" semirigid poly tube as well.
Less joints to make up and less places for leaks.

I used a 1/2" poly from the compressor in my garage into a hobby room and my
shop. Also pulled a 1/4" line connected to the blowdown port on the bottom
of the tank and ran it to the work shop so I could drain the water without
going to the gagrage.

I have had this arrangement in the basement for about 7 years with only one
leak caused by the cable guy last year.

I used heavy gage 2" PVC to create a header and reservoir of sorts in the
shop.






"Hoosierpopi" wrote in message
...
On Aug 6, 12:05 pm, LRod wrote:
On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:08:40 -0400, blueman wrote:

Anything but PVC for the material.


I'm sure there are stats and such to back this up, but personal
experience says "bunk."

We used 3/4" SCH40 White PVC piping all over our shop with drop/drain
lines at every "wall outlet" to collect and allow us to drain the
moisture.

We used a big old eighty-gallon unit with a 5HP motor and heavy-duty
two-stage compressor we got from a body shop that closed down.

We're talking nearly ten years of use w/o issues and moved the system
to a new warehouse where its been doing nicely for seven more years.

We run air tools and spray materials.

I've heard this "No PVC" stand before - but no practical experience
with issues that would preclude its use.

Surely his **** ant compressor would put less strain on the piping
than our setup.

As for the HFT tubing solution - it strikes me that, if you ran it so
as to be able to "pull" it out in case of a problem, it might be fine
for this application (although the CFM /air flow would be impacted.
But I use about 100' feet of it with my air nailers off a Portable PC
w/o issues. BTW, the 3/4" PVC provides extra storage - like adding a
second tank.

Enjoy

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 05:17:05 GMT, blueman wrote:


If I want to make up a short (1-2') section of flexible hose to go
from the compressor to the fixed pipe run, can I make (or buy) a short
run out of easily accessible materials? (i.e. what types of hose
material and what type of fittings)

I've used several of these and been happy with them:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=1824


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 05:14:21 GMT, blueman wrote:



Thanks for the detailed exposition!
So, I guess I'm thinking of biting the bullet and using copper. I'm
trying to decide now between 1/2" and 3/4" (while I appreciate the
extra manifold capicty of 1", I'm not sure it is worth the extra cost
or bulk).

- Would I see much difference between 1/2 and 3/4"?
i.e. Would it be "penny wise, pound foolish to put in 1/2" now just
to save a few tens of dollars on copper piping and fittings?

- Would type 'L' be preferable to type 'M' or is type 'M' good enough
for air at pressures of 90-125PSI?

L would be preferred, but M would be acceptable.

Now I know from simple geometry that 3/4" has a tad more than twice
the area of 1/2" but I'm not sure of how to do the Ohm's law type math
to see what type of pressure drop I would be seeing with 1/2" vs. 3/4"
for typical uses.

Assume average pressure of 100PSI at the tank with an average steady
state 4 CFM.

At 4cfm you would not see a difference between 1/2" and 3/4" at
100psi. At 14CFM you might.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Hoosierpopi wrote:
....
I'm sure there are stats and such to back this up, but personal
experience says "bunk."

Below link outlines the issue and at least one alternative--

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/...lse/6547/Issue

Here's the link to and an excerpt from the OSHA (I think original on the
subject) announcement--

http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/new..._air_lines.htm

....
MEMORANDUM FOR REGIONAL ADMINISTRATORS
....
FROM: EDWARD BAIER
Director
Directorate of Technical Support

SUBJECT: Safety Hazard Information Bulletin on
the Use of Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Pipe
in Above ground Installations

The Dallas Regional Office has brought to our attention a potential
serious hazard existing with the use of polyvinyl chloride (PVC) plastic
pipes for transporting compressed gases in above ground installations.
An employee in a Texas plant was injured recently by a rupture in a PVC
compressed air line. Plastic projectiles from the point of rupture
caused lacerations of the employee's hand. This is noteworthy because
the Plastic Pipe Institute, in its Recommendation B dated January 19,
1972, recommends against the use of thermoplastic pipe to transport
compressed air or other compressed gases in exposed plant piping. ...

Furthermore, sections 842.32, 842.43 and 849.52(b) of the American
National Standards Institute/American Society of Mechanical Engineers
(ANSI/ASME) B31.8-1986, Gas Transmission and Distribution Piping Systems
Standard, limit the operating pressure of plastic piping distribution
systems to 100 pounds per inch (psi) and prohibit the installation of
such systems above ground except where ". . . the above ground portion
of the plastic service line is completely enclosed in a conduit or
casing of sufficient strength to provide protection from external damage
and deterioration."

....
We used a big old eighty-gallon unit with a 5HP motor and heavy-duty
two-stage compressor we got from a body shop that closed down.

Size/HP of the compressor aren't the issue nearly as much as the
operating pressure and to a somewhat lesser degree the piping sizing
(larger diameter -- more schrapnel in case of fracture). The OSHA
mandate is for 100 psi systems I believe.


We're talking nearly ten years of use w/o issues and moved the system
to a new warehouse where its been doing nicely for seven more years.

Regarding a specific system and experience, it's only an issue when it
becomes one; unfortunately when that happens it could cause a
significant injury.

It's one of those things where I'm not going to tell anybody they have
to do something but it is imo irresponsible to recommend it.

--

Jay R wrote:


I've heard this "No PVC" stand before - but no practical experience
with issues that would preclude its use.

Surely his **** ant compressor would put less strain on the piping
than our setup.

I think UV, ozone, and fume exposure can greatly affect PVC.

I've built items that literally crumbled after a few years.

Hoosierpopi wrote:
On Aug 6, 12:05 pm, LRod wrote:
On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:08:40 -0400, blueman wrote:

Anything but PVC for the material.


I'm sure there are stats and such to back this up, but personal
experience says "bunk."

We used 3/4" SCH40 White PVC piping all over our shop with drop/drain
lines at every "wall outlet" to collect and allow us to drain the
moisture.

We used a big old eighty-gallon unit with a 5HP motor and heavy-duty
two-stage compressor we got from a body shop that closed down.

We're talking nearly ten years of use w/o issues and moved the system
to a new warehouse where its been doing nicely for seven more years.

We run air tools and spray materials.

I've heard this "No PVC" stand before - but no practical experience
with issues that would preclude its use.

Hit it in a area exposed to sunlight with a metal tool while it's
pressurized.

dpb wrote:
Hoosierpopi wrote:
...
I'm sure there are stats and such to back this up, but personal
experience says "bunk."

Below link outlines the issue and at least one alternative--

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/...lse/6547/Issue

Here's the link to and an excerpt from the OSHA (I think original on
the subject) announcement--

http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/new..._air_lines.htm

...
MEMORANDUM FOR REGIONAL ADMINISTRATORS
...
FROM: EDWARD BAIER
Director
Directorate of Technical Support

SUBJECT: Safety Hazard Information Bulletin on
the Use of Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Pipe
in Above ground Installations

The Dallas Regional Office has brought to our attention a potential
serious hazard existing with the use of polyvinyl chloride (PVC)
plastic pipes for transporting compressed gases in above ground
installations. An employee in a Texas plant was injured recently by
a
rupture in a PVC compressed air line. Plastic projectiles from the
point of rupture caused lacerations of the employee's hand. This is
noteworthy because the Plastic Pipe Institute, in its Recommendation
B dated January 19, 1972, recommends against the use of
thermoplastic
pipe to transport compressed air or other compressed gases in
exposed
plant piping. ...

Furthermore, sections 842.32, 842.43 and 849.52(b) of the American
National Standards Institute/American Society of Mechanical
Engineers
(ANSI/ASME) B31.8-1986, Gas Transmission and Distribution Piping
Systems Standard, limit the operating pressure of plastic piping
distribution systems to 100 pounds per inch (psi) and prohibit the
installation of such systems above ground except where ". . . the
above ground portion of the plastic service line is completely
enclosed in a conduit or casing of sufficient strength to provide
protection from external damage and deterioration."

...
We used a big old eighty-gallon unit with a 5HP motor and
heavy-duty
two-stage compressor we got from a body shop that closed down.

Size/HP of the compressor aren't the issue nearly as much as the
operating pressure and to a somewhat lesser degree the piping sizing
(larger diameter -- more schrapnel in case of fracture). The OSHA
mandate is for 100 psi systems I believe.


We're talking nearly ten years of use w/o issues and moved the
system
to a new warehouse where its been doing nicely for seven more
years.

Regarding a specific system and experience, it's only an issue when
it
becomes one; unfortunately when that happens it could cause a
significant injury.

It's one of those things where I'm not going to tell anybody they
have
to do something but it is imo irresponsible to recommend it.

It's kind of like running into someone who rides a motorcycle and says
"I've never crashed so why wear a helmet?".

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 07:52:01 -0700 (PDT), Hoosierpopi
wrote:

On Aug 6, 12:05 pm, LRod wrote:
On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:08:40 -0400, blueman wrote:

Anything but PVC for the material.

I'm sure there are stats and such to back this up, but personal
experience says "bunk."

Lucky you.

Kind of irresponsible to advocate its use based on personal experience
when there are "stats and such" extant, however, don't you think?

This would be one of those areas where I would have counseled erring
on the side of silence.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

On Aug 7, 7:52*am, Hoosierpopi wrote:
On Aug 6, 12:05 pm, LRod wrote:

On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:08:40 -0400, blueman wrote:

Anything but PVC for the material.

I'm sure there are stats and such to back this up, but personal
experience says "bunk."

We used 3/4" SCH40 White PVC piping all over our shop with drop/drain
lines at every "wall outlet" to collect and allow us to drain the
moisture.

We used a big old eighty-gallon unit with a 5HP motor and heavy-duty
two-stage compressor we got from a body shop that closed down.

We're talking nearly ten years of use w/o issues and moved the system
to a new warehouse where its been doing nicely for seven more years.

We run air tools and spray materials.

I've heard this "No PVC" stand before - but no practical experience
with issues that would preclude its use.

Surely his **** ant compressor would put less strain on the piping
than our setup.

As for the HFT tubing solution - it strikes me that, if you ran it so
as to be able to "pull" it out in case of a problem, it might be fine
for this application (although the CFM /air flow would be impacted.
But I use about 100' feet of it with my air nailers off a Portable PC
w/o issues. *BTW, the 3/4" PVC provides extra storage - like adding a
second tank.

Enjoy

Aside from UV and solvent issues I thought another reason to avoid PVC
was because how quickly it would fail in a fire. Obviously more of an
issue in a commercial shop than a home shop but rushing air would sure
fan the the flames in either place...