Hi.

Silly question time. Enjoy your laughs!

I am adding a 22 mm pipe run along the back wall which will feed 2
rads and a towel rail. Should I join the feed and return pipes at the
end of the run (making it into the proverbial loop) or make going
through a rad the only way back for the water?

If I join the ends, I assume the path of least resistance will mean
the water won't be keen to run through the rads at all, just keep
going round the loop. But if there is no loop what happens if all the
TRV's are closed and there is no return route? Is this accounted for
in boiler design so it just stops?

I think that not joining is the correct answer, but I want to be sure
before I finalise the pipework, so answers on a postcard please.

Thanks.



--
Regards from Mike Barnard
South Coast, UK.

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I am by far the least expert on this here (!) but here goes:

I am adding a 22 mm pipe run along the back wall which will feed 2
rads and a towel rail. Should I join the feed and return pipes at the
end of the run (making it into the proverbial loop) or make going
through a rad the only way back for the water?

Don't join them - the ends of each pipe end at the rad. So there is no way
anywhere that water can get back without going thru a rad (or the HW
cylinder) - but see below

If I join the ends, I assume the path of least resistance will mean
the water won't be keen to run through the rads at all, just keep
going round the loop. But if there is no loop what happens if all the
TRV's are closed and there is no return route? Is this accounted for
in boiler design so it just stops?

If you have all TRVs you either need to fit a bypass which will allow water
back to the boiler if all the TRVs and HW cylinder are off, or make sure one
rad has no TRV and is never shut off - maybe the bathroom one but check it
has sufficient flow for the boiler spec. Or some boilers will shut down
where there is no flow but you need to check!

If I join the ends, I assume the path of least resistance will mean
the water won't be keen to run through the rads at all, just keep
going round the loop. But if there is no loop what happens if all the
TRV's are closed and there is no return route? Is this accounted for
in boiler design so it just stops?

There are several ways of doing this. Just connecting flow to return will
entirely short out the radiators and isn't one of the ways.

1. Use a radiator without a TRV and with lockshields both ends to prevent
being turned off by misinformed users. This radiator would normally be
placed in the room with a room thermostat, which turns the boiler off when
the room is up to temperature.

2. Use a fixed bypass. This is a dead short, but with a valve set to only
pass a little water.

3. Use an automatic bypass. This senses the pressure difference. This will
open when the pressure gets too much. Some boilers have an internal
automatic bypass valve.

Note that if you have an all-TRV system rather than a room stat system, then
you are not compliant with building regulations for energy efficiency unless
you have a system for detecting that the TRVs have closed so that the boiler
can be turned off. This is achievable using a flow switch that measures
water actually going through the radiators rather than through the bypass
(which is positioned as the first "radiator" on the circuit, before the flow
switch).

Christian.

"Mike Barnard" wrote in message
...
Hi.

Silly question time. Enjoy your laughs!

I am adding a 22 mm pipe run along the back wall which will feed 2
rads and a towel rail. Should I join the feed and return pipes at the
end of the run (making it into the proverbial loop) or make going
through a rad the only way back for the water?

If I join the ends, I assume the path of least resistance will mean
the water won't be keen to run through the rads at all, just keep
going round the loop. But if there is no loop what happens if all the
TRV's are closed and there is no return route? Is this accounted for
in boiler design so it just stops?

I think that not joining is the correct answer, but I want to be sure
before I finalise the pipework, so answers on a postcard please.

Thanks.



An Automatic Bypass Valve (ABV) fitted after the pump but before the zone
valves is a good solution - it is adjustable, with all trv's open you
increase the pressure setting on the valve until all radiators heat
normally - then as the trv's close, it gradually automatically opens to
balance the flow and cuts-down the noise of water that would otherwise rush
through the trv's.
It is only a mechanical spring loaded valve - but can be fairly expensive
(£15-20)
Alternatively/additionally it is possible to get a pump that senses the
increases in pressure and automatically compensates by reducing the pump
speed (Grundfos Alpha).

Dave

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mike Barnard wrote:

Hi.

Silly question time. Enjoy your laughs!

I am adding a 22 mm pipe run along the back wall which will feed 2
rads and a towel rail. Should I join the feed and return pipes at the
end of the run (making it into the proverbial loop) or make going
through a rad the only way back for the water?

If I join the ends, I assume the path of least resistance will mean
the water won't be keen to run through the rads at all, just keep
going round the loop. But if there is no loop what happens if all the
TRV's are closed and there is no return route? Is this accounted for
in boiler design so it just stops?


Is it fair to asume that these are additional radiators being added to an
existing system? If so, this provides alternative flow paths on top of the
existing ones - so if they are all closed off, it's no different from the
current situation.

Either way, *do not* connect the flow and return pipes directly together. If
your system is such that, with all TRVs closed, you could have insufficient
flow to stop the boiler from overheating, you need a bi-pass valve -
preferably an automatic one. You should have at least one rad with no TRV -
and a room stat to turn the whole lot off - anyway.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article ,
"Christian McArdle" writes:
If I join the ends, I assume the path of least resistance will mean
the water won't be keen to run through the rads at all, just keep
going round the loop. But if there is no loop what happens if all the
TRV's are closed and there is no return route? Is this accounted for
in boiler design so it just stops?

There are several ways of doing this. Just connecting flow to return will
entirely short out the radiators and isn't one of the ways.

Well, this isn't electricity. A radiator will present lower
resistance than going all the way to the end of the pipe run
and returning. This is used in some industrial installations.
However, as you and others point out, this might not match
the design of the rest of the system, particularly for a
modern domestic installation.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:43:56 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

Hi.

Silly question time. Enjoy your laughs!

etc...

Thanks for your answers folks. I've done a bit of research and now I
understand what the building regs require. Will have a roomstat in
the (open plan) lounge / hall / stairs so will have no TRV here, just
lock valves. All others TRV and NO loops on the ends of the feeds!

Thanks again. I know more now than I did so thats good aint it?


--
Regards from Mike Barnard
South Coast, UK.

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