About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. Then they started color
coding their power tools into cheaper built units. Looks like they are
leading PC sown that same path. The tools even look kinda B&D'ish.



For less than $160 you can get an 18v combo kit including a Drill/Driver,
Circle saw, Recip saw, and Flash light.

Or, a 120 volt 13amp circular saw with laser for $59.99.


http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/...y/PCPrices.pdf

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:...ter+Cable.aspx

On Aug 2, 8:38*am, "Leon" wrote:
About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. *Then they started color
coding their power tools into cheaper built units. *Looks like they are
leading PC sown that same path. *The tools even look kinda B&D'ish.

For less than $160 you can get an 18v combo kit including a Drill/Driver,
Circle saw, Recip saw, and Flash light.

Or, a 120 volt 13amp circular saw with laser for $59.99.

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/.../binary/PCPric...

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:...Tools+From+Por...

Yup! And another one gone, another bites the dust.....
I already am well aware of PC having done the moonwalk for a while.
Their production routers used to last me a few (as much as 8) years,
then the later ones they were dead in (max) 2 years. Bearings. That
all happened when the motors became too small to fit in the older
bases. Crap. Just another example of idiots at the wheel.

I won't even bundle them with B & D and Ryobi and such.. When you buy
today's B & D, you KNOW it's crap...to put a name like PC on it, is
downright misleading.

Those $ 200K MBA's are doing a bang-up job, eh? " Look, boss, I saved
us another 2 million by going to even cheaper plastic!!"

No wonder that the more serious (professional) tool jockeys are
spending extra for Festool. You just can't trust the other guys
anymore.

"Robatoy" wrote

Yup! And another one gone, another bites the dust.....
I already am well aware of PC having done the moonwalk for a while.
Their production routers used to last me a few (as much as 8) years,
then the later ones they were dead in (max) 2 years. Bearings. That
all happened when the motors became too small to fit in the older
bases.

Yep ... Last PC router I bought was PC plunge model circa 2005 ... POS, with
more plastic on it than Pamela Anderson. I have to use wrenches for setup
because all the plastic knobs/parts broke.

Hardly worth the fire sale price I paid for it ... at a garage sale!

Crap. Just another example of idiots at the wheel.

... and another example of what they KNOW an idiot public will accept!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Leon wrote:

About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. Then they started
color
coding their power tools into cheaper built units. Looks like they are
leading PC sown that same path. The tools even look kinda B&D'ish.



For less than $160 you can get an 18v combo kit including a Drill/Driver,
Circle saw, Recip saw, and Flash light.

Or, a 120 volt 13amp circular saw with laser for $59.99.



http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/...y/PCPrices.pdf


http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:...ter+Cable.aspx

It's funny and I knew it would happen, I even called PC back when B&D bought
them and had a hell of a time finding someone to talk to about my concerns.
He assured me they were separate identities and PC would only improve
towards the professionals. I told him I was not convinced. I also let him
know how many tools I had and what percentage were PC and the story of my
14.4 drill/driver which has been going strong for 7 years with only battery
replacements.

I remember all to well what AMC did to Harley Davidson. Hopefully PC will
get the same message and grab it back from B&D ****.

Rich

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. Then they started
color coding their power tools into cheaper built units. Looks like
they are leading PC sown that same path. The tools even look kinda
B&D'ish.

{snip}

IIRC, and please correct me if I am wrong about this, isn't there some
large corporation that owns B&D, PC, DeWalt, and Delta tools?

So, when are this mega corporation going to buy out Milwaukee tools, and/
or Makita (SP?) Tools, or will Hitachi buy out all of them?

I blame it all on Sears and Craftsman tools.

Phil

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 12:24:10 -0500, Phil Again
wrote:


About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. Then they started
color coding their power tools into cheaper built units. Looks like
they are leading PC sown that same path. The tools even look kinda
B&D'ish.

{snip}

IIRC, and please correct me if I am wrong about this, isn't there some
large corporation that owns B&D, PC, DeWalt, and Delta tools?

Black and Decker is the large corporation that owns the above
mentioned brands.

So, when are this mega corporation going to buy out Milwaukee tools, and/
or Makita (SP?) Tools, or will Hitachi buy out all of them?

I blame it all on Sears and Craftsman tools.

Phil

On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 05:55:22 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Aug 2, 8:38*am, "Leon" wrote:
About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. *Then they started color
coding their power tools into cheaper built units. *Looks like they are
leading PC sown that same path. *The tools even look kinda B&D'ish.

For less than $160 you can get an 18v combo kit including a Drill/Driver,
Circle saw, Recip saw, and Flash light.

Or, a 120 volt 13amp circular saw with laser for $59.99.

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/.../binary/PCPric...

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:...Tools+From+Por...

Yup! And another one gone, another bites the dust.....
I already am well aware of PC having done the moonwalk for a while.
Their production routers used to last me a few (as much as 8) years,

That was in the not so distant past when they used to wind their own
motors in house in Jackson, TN.

then the later ones they were dead in (max) 2 years. Bearings. That
all happened when the motors became too small to fit in the older
bases. Crap. Just another example of idiots at the wheel.

Now they buy those sets from whatever offshore source.........

I won't even bundle them with B & D and Ryobi and such.. When you buy
today's B & D, you KNOW it's crap...to put a name like PC on it, is
downright misleading.

Makes me want to cry.

Those $ 200K MBA's are doing a bang-up job, eh? " Look, boss, I saved
us another 2 million by going to even cheaper plastic!!"

I can assure you those guys have never used a tool.

No wonder that the more serious (professional) tool jockeys are
spending extra for Festool. You just can't trust the other guys
anymore.

See reference to crying above.

Frank

On Aug 2, 12:24 pm, Phil Again wrote:

So, when are this mega corporation going to buy out Milwaukee tools,

It was bought about three years ago by an investment group named TTI.
Until that time, there was no such animal as a Chiawanese Milwaukee
tool. TTI owns several brand names of tools, and in some cases acts a
jobber/manufacturer for other different companies.

or Makita (SP?) Tools, or will Hitachi buy out all of them?

A great deal of Hitachi is owned by B&D, hence the bizarro
colorations, decals, and plastic gizmos glued all over their tools
these days. I think at this time (not sure, no cite) that most
Hitachi and Skil tools come off the same Chinese production lines.

I blame it all on Sears and Craftsman tools.

Sorry, it happened long before that. I know it is popular to bitch
slap Sears as an easy target, but this all started well before Sears
started reducing the quality of their own branded products.

Robert

On Aug 2, 12:31 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:

Black and Decker is the large corporation that owns the above
mentioned brands.

This is the high points of B&D's history, a la B&D.

It gives an overview of their larger acquisitions, and the last
paragraph is pretty interesting. I didn't know they owned DeVilbiss.
Sadly, they don't list everything they own.

http://tinyurl.com/ywp8kk

Ironically, searching around on this subject, it appears that B&D is
actually a company with no centralized form of ownership itself. It
is a "hive" that is so large and so diverse that there are many
different investment companies such as Barclay's, Vanguard Funds,
etc., that own large chunks of this behemoth, including a lot of stock
in private hands.

The tools they sell are nothing more than another page on the
portfolio, right after microwaves, weedeaters, coffee makers, etc.

Sad, indeed.

Robert

wrote:

On Aug 2, 12:31 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:

Black and Decker is the large corporation that owns the above
mentioned brands.

This is the high points of B&D's history, a la B&D.

It gives an overview of their larger acquisitions, and the last
paragraph is pretty interesting. I didn't know they owned DeVilbiss.
Sadly, they don't list everything they own.

http://tinyurl.com/ywp8kk

Ironically, searching around on this subject, it appears that B&D is
actually a company with no centralized form of ownership itself. It
is a "hive" that is so large and so diverse that there are many
different investment companies such as Barclay's, Vanguard Funds,
etc., that own large chunks of this behemoth, including a lot of stock
in private hands.

The tools they sell are nothing more than another page on the
portfolio, right after microwaves, weedeaters, coffee makers, etc.

Sad, indeed.

Robert
I'm wondering if there is room for a new company that truly makes the best
tools made in all categories, sadly probably not. Guess this is called
progress. Can't imagine what tools will be available in 20 years.

Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.co.nr/

wrote:
On Aug 2, 12:24 pm, Phil Again
wrote:

So, when are this mega corporation going to buy out Milwaukee
tools,

It was bought about three years ago by an investment group named
TTI.
Until that time, there was no such animal as a Chiawanese Milwaukee
tool. TTI owns several brand names of tools, and in some cases acts
a
jobber/manufacturer for other different companies.

or Makita (SP?) Tools, or will Hitachi buy out all of them?

A great deal of Hitachi is owned by B&D,

Quite a trick for B&D to own "a great deal" of Hitachi, considering
that Hitachi is about 20 times the size. What B&D did do in 2002 was
enter into a "cooperative business arrangement" with Hitachi. The
current B&D annual report does not even contain the word "Hitachi".

hence the bizarro
colorations, decals, and plastic gizmos glued all over their tools
these days.

Funny that if the reason is B&D ownership, Dewalt, Porter Cable, and
Delta, all of which _are_ owned by Black and Decker, do not have
similar "bizarro colorations, decals, and plastic gizmos glued all
over their tools".

I think at this time (not sure, no cite) that most
Hitachi and Skil tools come off the same Chinese production lines.

Regardless of the brand, the Japanese produce a surprising amount of
stuff in China. But unlike American manufacturers seeking to have
stuff made over there, the Japanese know how to get results out of
recalcitrant Chinese.

Incidentally, you are aware are you not that Skil is owned by Bosch,
not Black and Decker, and that Bosch is a privately held company based
in Germany?

I blame it all on Sears and Craftsman tools.

Sorry, it happened long before that. I know it is popular to bitch
slap Sears as an easy target, but this all started well before Sears
started reducing the quality of their own branded products.

You are aware, are you not, that those "low quality made in China"
Craftsman hand tools are all stamped "Made in USA", not on a sticker
but in the die?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 13:14:18 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 2, 12:31 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:

Black and Decker is the large corporation that owns the above
mentioned brands.

This is the high points of B&D's history, a la B&D.

It gives an overview of their larger acquisitions, and the last
paragraph is pretty interesting. I didn't know they owned DeVilbiss.
Sadly, they don't list everything they own.

They own DAPC. That's DeVilbiss only in very small print. Part of the
agreement when the compressor part of the company was split from
DeVilbiss, the makers of high quality spray coating equipment.

Frank

http://tinyurl.com/ywp8kk

Ironically, searching around on this subject, it appears that B&D is
actually a company with no centralized form of ownership itself. It
is a "hive" that is so large and so diverse that there are many
different investment companies such as Barclay's, Vanguard Funds,
etc., that own large chunks of this behemoth, including a lot of stock
in private hands.

The tools they sell are nothing more than another page on the
portfolio, right after microwaves, weedeaters, coffee makers, etc.

Sad, indeed.

Robert

"evodawg" wrote in message
news:FZ3lk.59$T91.27@trnddc04...
wrote:
I'm wondering if there is room for a new company that truly makes the best
tools made in all categories, sadly probably not. Guess this is called
progress. Can't imagine what tools will be available in 20 years.


Not likely that 12 company will build the best of everything, there never
has been. Festool may be the closest today. Tools today will probably be
better than they are today. IMHO tools today are better than they were 20
years ago, they have just change names. GM and Ford used to be considered
top notch, Now Honda and Toyota fill the position and both of those are
much better than GM and Ford ever thought of being.

"Phil Again" wrote in message
m...

About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. Then they started
color coding their power tools into cheaper built units. Looks like
they are leading PC sown that same path. The tools even look kinda
B&D'ish.

{snip}

IIRC, and please correct me if I am wrong about this, isn't there some
large corporation that owns B&D, PC, DeWalt, and Delta tools?

B&D basically owns them all, B&D and DeWalt have been linked together since
at least the 70's.




So, when are this mega corporation going to buy out Milwaukee tools, and/
or Makita (SP?) Tools, or will Hitachi buy out all of them?

IIRC Milwaukee was bought some years ago, already many of their tools come
from the East.

wrote:
On Aug 2, 12:31 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:

Black and Decker is the large corporation that owns the above
mentioned brands.

This is the high points of B&D's history, a la B&D.

It gives an overview of their larger acquisitions, and the last
paragraph is pretty interesting. I didn't know they owned
DeVilbiss.
Sadly, they don't list everything they own.

http://tinyurl.com/ywp8kk

Ironically, searching around on this subject, it appears that B&D is
actually a company with no centralized form of ownership itself. It
is a "hive" that is so large and so diverse that there are many
different investment companies such as Barclay's, Vanguard Funds,
etc., that own large chunks of this behemoth, including a lot of
stock
in private hands.

This is the nature of publicly traded companies. You'll find that the
same is true for IBM and GM and any other big company that is listed
on the stock exchanges. If you want a piece of it all you have to do
is call your broker and pay the price, currently about 60 bucks a
share.

The tools they sell are nothing more than another page on the
portfolio, right after microwaves, weedeaters, coffee makers, etc.

This is also true for Bosch, which is privately held. Most of their
income comes from auto parts, not tools.

Sad, indeed.

Robert

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Aug 2, 4:52 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

Cool, Dude! With you around I feel like I have my own editor, fact
checker, and wife all in one shot! Thanks for the careful reread.

My comments were made in simple idle conversation with my Saturday
morning coffee, but once again I appreciate your efforts to bring my
meanderings up to the expected standards of this group.


A great deal of Hitachi is owned by B&D,

Quite a trick for B&D to own "a great deal" of Hitachi, considering
that Hitachi is about 20 times the size.

Our perspectives might be quite different. I had read somewhere that
B&D (sorry, no cite, but I am sure you will supply a "yeah" or "nay"
as needed!) had bought a stake in the tool arm of Hitachi America
which was (in my understanding) formed in order to manufacture and
distribute their current line of consumer tools.

It is perspective; for example (don't apply these to Hitachi/B&D when
you are looking the numbers up, I pulled them from the air for
purposed of illustration) if company X buys into a family member
company for 200 million, that may be a lot for the family member
company. If the parent company of the family member is worth a
trillion dollars, it isn't worth mentioning.

What B&D did do in 2002 was
enter into a "cooperative business arrangement" with Hitachi. The
current B&D annual report does not even contain the word "Hitachi".

Wouldn't argue that one. I have no doubt you have read all umpteen
thousand pages of the subsequent back up documents, so I believe you.


Funny that if the reason is B&D ownership, Dewalt, Porter Cable, and
Delta, all of which _are_ owned by Black and Decker, do not have
similar "bizarro colorations, decals, and plastic gizmos glued all
over their tools".

I wonder... it is possible that they have resisted putting all that
stuff on DeWalt, PC, etc. because some still consider them
professional tools? Are you saying that if they are all owned by the
same company they should all look alike and not target specific
markets? My personal opinion (ha!) is that with today's tools, the
marketing department identifies the niche, and the tool, the design of
the tool including how and where it is made are all done with the
niche (dollar specific) in mind. You could be right, though. Other
forces could be at work.


Incidentally, you are aware are you not that Skil is owned by Bosch,
not Black and Decker, and that Bosch is a privately held company based
in Germany?

No, am not aware, I am not, that Bosch is privately held. Bosch GmBH
is held by the Robert Bosch foundation, and 10% of the company is
held by the Bosch family. I am not trying to pick nits here, but I
didn't want you to fall into the same hole I did when I said "Hitachi"
and you took it to mean the entirety of Hitachi and all its
permutations and holdings.

I am guessing here, so feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong
(seriously... feel free! ;^) )
but I would think that you know that many of the Chinese manufacturers
of low end products are simply jobbers. They bid on jobs like I do.
I have a friend of a friend that gets a trade magazine from
manufacturers in China, and you can get anything you want made there
with your name on it.

Take a look at this, and go to the bottom of the page. http://tinyurl.com/5llmun

Any of that crap look familiar? No telling how many different brands
we know are made side by side on the same lines.

You are aware, are you not, that those "low quality made in China"
Craftsman hand tools are all stamped "Made in USA", not on a sticker
but in the die?

Once again, I am not aware, I am not. I looked at my cordless drill
and it says "Made in China" on a decal. Same with the light, same
with the saw (bundle kit - $129). No die marks anywhere... I even
checked the charger. I am sure they are Craftsman, though as I
purchased them there myself.

Makes me wonder. Now I am afraid to look at the rest of my tiny
Craftsman collection.

Still though, I wouldn't blame Sears for the rest of the manufacturers
making lousy tools, no matter where they are made.

I used a lot of really crappy tools and saw a whole lot more when the
venerated Rockwell tools decided (no, I don't know who did it or why)
to come up with a homeowner line. It was as bad as anything out
there, and the worst tools that I think (here's my opinion, no facts)
probably the worst tools mass manufactured (my definition of mass may
be different than yours!) in the USA for sale to the public.

Robert

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 21:04:37 +0000, evodawg wrote:

I'm wondering if there is room for a new company that truly makes the best
tools made in all categories, sadly probably not. Guess this is called
progress. Can't imagine what tools will be available in 20 years.

Steel City tools seem to be pretty good. Not up to Festool quality, but
neither are their prices.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:02:01 -0700, wrote:

Once again, I am not aware, I am not. I looked at my cordless drill
and it says "Made in China" on a decal. Same with the light, same
with the saw (bundle kit - $129). No die marks anywhere... I even
checked the charger. I am sure they are Craftsman, though as I
purchased them there myself.

He said hand tools, not power tools.

On Aug 2, 8:02*pm, "
wrote:
On Aug 2, 4:52 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

Cool, Dude! *With you around I feel like I have my own editor, fact
checker, and wife all in one shot! *Thanks for the careful reread.

My comments were made in simple idle conversation with my Saturday
morning coffee, but once again I appreciate your efforts to bring my
meanderings up to the expected standards of this group.

A great deal of Hitachi is owned by B&D,

Quite a trick for B&D to own "a great deal" of Hitachi, considering
that Hitachi is about 20 times the size.

Our perspectives might be quite different. *I had read somewhere that
B&D (sorry, no cite, but I am sure you will supply a "yeah" or "nay"
as needed!) had bought a stake in the tool arm of Hitachi America
which was (in my understanding) formed in order to manufacture and
distribute their current line of consumer tools.

It is perspective; for example (don't apply these to Hitachi/B&D when
you are looking the numbers up, I pulled them from the air for
purposed of illustration) if company X buys into a family member
company for 200 million, that may be a lot for the family member
company. *If the parent company of the family member is worth a
trillion dollars, it isn't worth mentioning.

What B&D did do in 2002 was

enter into a "cooperative business arrangement" with Hitachi. *The
current B&D annual report does not even contain the word "Hitachi".

Wouldn't argue that one. *I have no doubt you have read all umpteen
thousand pages of the subsequent back up documents, so I believe you.

Funny that if the reason is B&D ownership, Dewalt, Porter Cable, and
Delta, all of which _are_ owned by Black and Decker, do not have
similar "bizarro colorations, decals, and plastic gizmos glued all
over their tools".

I wonder... it is possible that they have resisted putting all that
stuff on DeWalt, PC, etc. because some still consider them
professional tools? *Are you saying that if they are all owned by the
same company they should all look alike and not target specific
markets? *My personal opinion (ha!) is that with today's tools, the
marketing department identifies the niche, and the tool, the design of
the tool including how and where it is made are all done with the
niche (dollar specific) in mind. *You could be right, though. *Other
forces could be at work.

Incidentally, you are aware are you not that Skil is owned by Bosch,
not Black and Decker, and that Bosch is a privately held company based
in Germany?

No, am not aware, I am not, that Bosch is privately held. *Bosch GmBH
is held by the Robert Bosch foundation, and 10% of the company is
held by the Bosch family. *I am not trying to pick nits here, but I
didn't want you to fall into the same hole I did when I said "Hitachi"
and you took it to mean the entirety of Hitachi and all its
permutations and holdings.

I am guessing here, so feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong
(seriously... feel free! *;^) *)
but I would think that you know that many of the Chinese manufacturers
of low end products are simply jobbers. *They bid on jobs like I do.
I have a friend of a friend that gets a trade magazine from
manufacturers in China, and you can get anything you want made there
with your name on it.

Take a look at this, and go to the bottom of the page. *http://tinyurl.com/5llmun

Any of that crap look familiar? *No telling how many different brands
we know are made side by side on the same lines.

You are aware, are you not, that those "low quality made in China"
Craftsman hand tools are all stamped "Made in USA", not on a sticker
but in the die?

Once again, I am not aware, I am not. *I looked at my cordless drill
and it says "Made in China" on a decal. *Same with the light, same
with the saw (bundle kit - $129). *No die marks anywhere... *I even
checked the charger. *I am sure they are Craftsman, though as I
purchased them there myself.

Makes me wonder. *Now I am afraid to look at the rest of my tiny
Craftsman collection.

Still though, I wouldn't blame Sears for the rest of the manufacturers
making lousy tools, no matter where they are made.

I used a lot of really crappy tools and saw a whole lot more when the
venerated Rockwell tools decided (no, I don't know who did it or why)
to come up with a homeowner line. *It was as bad as anything out
there, and the worst tools that I think (here's my opinion, no facts)
probably the worst tools mass manufactured (my definition of mass may
be different than yours!) in the USA for sale to the public.

Robert

You know what I find amazing, Robert, is that sudden realisation that
I had just yesterday whilst wandering through the Halls of Tooldom at
Home Depot.
First, a parallel to another line of products: DVD players. At first,
$ 1200.00. Then a hole range of players at $ 700.00... everybody
wanted a piece of Joe Consumer. Then, when the $ 700 units slowed down
in sales, the figured they had recouped enough of the investment and
they started dropping prices to leech out all the $ 400 buyers..then
down to $ 200, $ 50, $ 19.99... now they can't give the damned things
away because everybody has one. (Now, those slick MoFo's started an
'improved version of video disk so they're mostly obsolete anyway,
yadda, yadda)

Which raises the question: Doesn't (most) everybody already have a
jigsaw, cordless drill and such? What's with the 'end-of-aisle'
promotions by Makita, DeWalt, Ryobi...the list is endless, where you
can buy entire workshops in a bag for a couple of hundred dollars? Who
are they after? Are we at the almost total market saturation point
already? (The equivalent of the 19.99 DVD player WITHOUT an encore???)

That bearded douche nozzle Billy Mays (sp?), that MOST abrasive pitch-
dick, was selling a metal stick, with 2 prongs to be used as a weed
auger of some type...and wait!! There WAS more...a FREE rechargeable
drill!!! $ 19.99!! They are now throwing the ****ing things away!!
Nobody wants them, and nobody cares.
Maybe the next incarnation of the cordless drill is one that drill
more than one hole at the time, hell, it worked for Shick and Gilette!

Cheaper, better faster... and once Joe consumer buys that crappy 25
dollar sander......guess what? He's OFF the market for that $ 50,00
sander that might actually DO what he bought the 25 dollar one for.
grammar alert

Yes indeed, by selling him a piece of ****, you have just eliminated
one of your customers.

Smart, huh?

On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 20:27:15 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:


That bearded douche nozzle Billy Mays (sp?),

Uh, Mays is his middle name. His last name is Here, or Hear, or Hiere.

That's all I ever hear from him before I change the channel (or hit
the Mute). Billy Mays Here...



--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

LRod wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 20:27:15 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:


That bearded douche nozzle Billy Mays (sp?),

Uh, Mays is his middle name. His last name is Here, or Hear, or Hiere.

That's all I ever hear from him before I change the channel (or hit
the Mute). Billy Mays Here...



chortle.

wrote:
[snip]

I have to agree with Robatoy on this one. Indeed one piece of ****
eliminates one of your customers for a better model AND one of your
competitors better models. We are fast approaching the kitchen
appliance model for manufacturers where there are just a few
manufacturers of, for example, dishwashers. There are still many brands
available, just not much difference between them. So instead of paying
for a premium brand, look for the manufacturer and buy a less expensive
similar model.

On that note, I do live in the boondocks. Does Skil now own Bosch? The
other way around? Inquiring dicks want to know.
snort and humbug,
jo4hn

jo4hn wrote:
wrote:
[snip]

I have to agree with Robatoy on this one. Indeed one piece of ****
eliminates one of your customers for a better model AND one of your
competitors better models. We are fast approaching the kitchen
appliance model for manufacturers where there are just a few
manufacturers of, for example, dishwashers. There are still many
brands available, just not much difference between them. So instead
of paying for a premium brand, look for the manufacturer and buy a
less expensive similar model.

On that note, I do live in the boondocks. Does Skil now own Bosch?
The other way around? Inquiring dicks want to know.

Bosch is another huge company, like Hitachi, whose major business is
_not_ power tools. Bosch bought out Skil in 1996. That does not mean
that a Skil jigsaw is the same inside as a Bosch.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

jo4hn wrote:

LRod wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 20:27:15 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:


That bearded douche nozzle Billy Mays (sp?),

Uh, Mays is his middle name. His last name is Here, or Hear, or Hiere.

That's all I ever hear from him before I change the channel (or hit
the Mute). Billy Mays Here...


Yeah, but it's more like, "BILLY MAYS HERE! ..."



chortle.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:02:01 -0700, wrote:

Once again, I am not aware, I am not. I looked at my cordless drill
and it says "Made in China" on a decal. Same with the light, same
with the saw (bundle kit - $129). No die marks anywhere... I even
checked the charger. I am sure they are Craftsman, though as I
purchased them there myself.

He said hand tools, not power tools.

But the subject was power tools not hand tools.

On Aug 2, 9:22 pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:

He said hand tools, not power tools.

Hmmmm...... last time I used my cordless drill, I used my hands to
hold it and guide it. Using the drill press, I cannot hold it and use
it.

When I use my circular saw, I hold it in my hands and guide it; my
table saw stays in place and I can't move it.

Are you saying that a cordless drill is actually a stationary tool?
Are you saying that a cordless drill is not a hand tool?

If my cordless drill is supposed to be mounted on in some device to
make it stationary, or if it is not supposed to be held in my hands
when I drill, drive screws, sand or polish with it, I need a diagram
on its use as I have been using them the wrong way for years.

Robert

wrote:
On Aug 2, 9:22 pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:

He said hand tools, not power tools.

Hmmmm...... last time I used my cordless drill, I used my hands to
hold it and guide it. Using the drill press, I cannot hold it and
use
it.

When I use my circular saw, I hold it in my hands and guide it; my
table saw stays in place and I can't move it.

Are you saying that a cordless drill is actually a stationary tool?
Are you saying that a cordless drill is not a hand tool?

If my cordless drill is supposed to be mounted on in some device to
make it stationary, or if it is not supposed to be held in my hands
when I drill, drive screws, sand or polish with it, I need a diagram
on its use as I have been using them the wrong way for years.


If the power doesn't come from your muscles it's not a "hand tool".

A cordless drill or a circular saw is a "portable power tool", not a
"hand tool".

At least if you're looking them up in a tool catalog that's how you're
going to find them organized.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Aug 4, 3:44*am, "
wrote:
On Aug 2, 9:22 pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:

He said hand tools, not power tools.

Hmmmm...... last time I used my cordless drill, I used my hands to
hold it and guide it. *Using the drill press, I cannot hold it and use
it.

When I use my circular saw, I hold it in my hands and guide it; my
table saw stays in place and I can't move it.

Are you saying that a cordless drill is actually a stationary tool?
Are you saying that a cordless drill is not a hand tool?

If my cordless drill is supposed to be mounted on in some device to
make it stationary, or if it is not supposed to be held in my hands
when I drill, drive screws, sand or polish with it, I need a diagram
on its use as I have been using them the wrong way for years.

Robert

The 'cordless' feature would be kind of useless when mounted in some
kind of device, no?

On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 00:44:40 -0700, wrote:

Are you saying that a cordless drill is actually a stationary tool?

No.

Are you saying that a cordless drill is not a hand tool?

Yes.

A cordless drill is a power tool. Planes, chisels, scrapers, hammers,
etc. are hand tools. The definition of hand tools has always excluded
anything with a motor.

I'll admit that language changes over time, but I'm not ready to change
that definition yet :-).

On Aug 4, 10:34 am, Robatoy wrote:

The 'cordless' feature would be kind of useless when mounted in some
kind of device, no?

That was actually part of my own obtuse way of making my point. I
don't care who or what powers it, if I hold it and guide it in my hand
while using it, to me it is a "hand tool".

But, to expand on my point since at least part of this thread is
concerned with accuracy of the typed word, one must remember the
battery powered miter saws that were around for a while. Made to be
partnered to the gas powered trim guns, the theory was that you drove
up on the job with all batteries charged and with your gas powered
guns no longer needed any kind of air lines or power cords. Less
hassle when arriving and leaving, and less equipment to maintain, and
clutter inside a smaller house.

To me, the cordless miter box is not a hand tool since you don't hold,
support it, or guide it in your hands during its use. But the gas gun
you shoot the trim on with is indeed a hand tool.

More importantly to me personally, a few years ago when my truck was
broken into and several tools were stolen, the insurance company
considered anything in the tool box a hand tool.
Drills, saws, etc., were all classified the same.

They were not interested in the semantics, current accepted usage, or
any neander driven arguments about the labels of the tools stolen.
In fact to be honest, they weren't concerned with my loss at all.

Robert

I suppose you noticed that the tool line is for
Lowes Home Centers "only". Lowes is forver
coming up with the "bargin basement tool lines.

They are cheap and don't last long.

I'm not sure who goes after who, but the Hitachi
switch over has not proven to be a success and
now this fall, I bet you see another vendor.

On Aug 4, 3:20*pm, "
wrote:
On Aug 4, 10:34 am, Robatoy wrote:

The 'cordless' feature would be kind of useless when mounted in some
kind of device, no?

That was actually part of my own obtuse way of making my point. *I
don't care who or what powers it, if I hold it and guide it in my hand
while using it, to me it is a "hand tool".


(I forgot the 'tongue firmly planted in cheek' emoticon... izzit
something like 8^* ?)

I agree.
Stationary tools are tools to which you bring the piece that is being
worked on, a hand tool is a tool you take to the piece you're working
on.
Both are portable tools. Some more so than others. Some are movable
stationary tools. I would consider a stud-finder and a flashlight hand
tools, even though they're electrified. EEeeeelectrified!!!

But, I try not to pay too much attention to those who nit-pick at
semantics .. they're usually holed up in a basement with nothing else
to do...and never contribute anything worthwhile.

r

=0)

" wrote in news:28d1f5ed-
:


That was actually part of my own obtuse way of making my point. I
don't care who or what powers it, if I hold it and guide it in my hand
while using it, to me it is a "hand tool".

*snip*


Robert

The way I see things is that a "hand tool" is powered by hand. If you
move your hands to perform its function (but not to control the tool or
operate it) then it's a hand tool.

If you guide a tool, but the power to perform its function comes from any
source but your hand, it's a power tool. I realize such tools as a foot
powered sharpening stone or lathe would be considered a power tool by
this definition.

Think of it as "hand-powered tool" and "not hand-powered tool." There
are tools that fit in both categories.

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Aug 4, 2:43 pm, Robatoy wrote:

Stationary tools are tools to which you bring the piece that is being
worked on, a hand tool is a tool you take to the piece you're working
on.
Both are portable tools. Some more so than others. Some are movable
stationary tools. I would consider a stud-finder and a flashlight hand
tools, even though they're electrified. EEeeeelectrified!!!

We are like minded on that point.

But, I try not to pay too much attention to those who nit-pick at
semantics .. they're usually holed up in a basement with nothing else
to do...and never contribute anything worthwhile.

LOL. Probably more energy than it's worth to make a point with crowd
than it's worth anyway.
At the ballgame the other night, I am reminded of a conversation
between two of my friends about a third party that was no in
attendance.

"Damn that was one argumentative sombitch! He ****ed me off more than
once - I hope you don't bring him out here again. A little of him
sure goes a long way."

*chuckle* "Well, that's the way Bill is... for him, arguing is
sport. If have a white golf ball in your hand, he will argue with you
about what color it is".

Overhearing this, I responded - "why in the hell would you spend your
free time around a contentious asshole that has nothing better to do
than to stir up pointless crap for his own amusement?"

To borrow your "phrase" -- =0)

Robert

On Aug 4, 11:40 am, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 00:44:40 -0700, wrote:
Are you saying that a cordless drill is actually a stationary tool?

No.

Are you saying that a cordless drill is not a hand tool?

Yes.

A cordless drill is a power tool.

All of the eggbeater drills and breast drills I
have seen were cordless...

--

FF

"Leon" wrote in message
...
About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. Then they started
color coding their power tools into cheaper built units. Looks like they
are leading PC sown that same path. The tools even look kinda B&D'ish.

And you expected PC to improve after being acquired by B & D????

On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:46:18 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

Are you saying that a cordless drill is not a hand tool?

Yes.

A cordless drill is a power tool.

All of the eggbeater drills and breast drills I
have seen were cordless...

There's one in every crowd :-).

I should have seen that coming, as I have a small collection of push
drills :-).

On Aug 4, 10:50 pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:

There's one in every crowd :-).

I should have seen that coming, as I have a small collection of push
drills :-).

Woodwerkin' just gets harder and harder..


;^)

Robert

"Brent Beal" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
...
About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. Then they started
color coding their power tools into cheaper built units. Looks like they
are leading PC sown that same path. The tools even look kinda B&D'ish.

And you expected PC to improve after being acquired by B & D????


No, I thought it take a bit longer to lower the quality.

On Aug 5, 12:50*am, "
wrote:
On Aug 4, 10:50 pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:

There's one in every crowd :-).

I should have seen that coming, as I have a small collection of push
drills :-).

Woodwerkin' just gets harder and harder..

* ;^)

Robert

Nobody can look me in the eye and tell me that a 20-pound sledgehammer
is NOT a 'power tool'.

:}