I need to brighten/ bleach my pine picnic table 2"x12"x8' boards that have
the blackened water marks, etc. before I finish with Spar. Its great to see
after its done so. I have liquid pool chlorine, which does a great job of
whitening, but may have its own drawbacks (maybe not), but someone mentioned
oxalic acid instead. The problem with pool chlorine is that the poly
doesn't stick after, but I've only ever done it once or so to know whatever
I did or didn't do didn't adequately rid/neutralize it. Again someone
mentioned sanding. I could work chlorine in earlier to the overall re&re
process this time. I probably did nothing or a light water rinse before,
&/or maybe a light sand. Again any further comments about neutralizing for
either the chlorine or oxalic acid, or any other product. Oh ya, and where
do I get it in Toronto? Not LV, CT, HH, or HD!

Has another used or will recommend buying the accessories that you can buy
from Lee Valley for sharpening a cabinet scraper? I think I can sharpen and
flatten the scraper alright without extra tools. Just need a good flat file
after it is normal and true then take a few final level swipes. But I have
yet to get a piece of (round) metal stock of hardness greater than the
scraper for putting the crucial finish on it, and you just can't find
something anywhere around the whole house can you. There are two (2) items
I think might do the job, a piston wrist pin or a valve lifer, form an
automobile, but don't know if either is a good fit. To get the hook I get
the feeling (experimenting with a kitchen knife sharpening tool) that a load
of exertion is required, and then there is the skill level too. I'm no
craftsman but for getting rid of bondo on a door jamb there is no other
tool, and the list goes on. But I wish I could get mine working right;
barely useable as a paper weight when I am done with it currently. So here
are the LV products. Are they good investments? About $37 for a sharpener!
Or should I get to the auto rebuilders with a fiver?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,310,41070
Veritas® Variable Burnisher
05K37.01 Not the round one (to make a hook cuz I've made better with a
blow torch and stair railing)

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,43072,43089
Veritas® Jointer/Edger
05M07.01 I am pretty sure I don't need this (for flattening/truing)


BTW Is the simple act of posting here in NGs lately causing my junk mail
quantity to increase? You can e-mail me an answer if you wish!?


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bent wrote:
....
oxalic acid, or any other product. Oh ya, and where do I get it in
Toronto? Not LV, CT, HH, or HD!

Many of the deck cleaners that HD had last time I was painting were
oxalic-acid based. Can't imagine they don't have the crystals, either,
but I don't know Toronto. If not, any full line paint supplier
certainly should...

--

Any notes on neutralizing this stuff after so the Spar poly will stickum
goodly?


"dpb" wrote in message ...
bent wrote:
...
oxalic acid, or any other product. Oh ya, and where do I get it in
Toronto? Not LV, CT, HH, or HD!

Many of the deck cleaners that HD had last time I was painting were
oxalic-acid based. Can't imagine they don't have the crystals, either,
but I don't know Toronto. If not, any full line paint supplier certainly
should...

--


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bent wrote:
Any notes on neutralizing this stuff after so the Spar poly will stickum
goodly?
....

Water, water, water...

Never had any problem, but normally am painting. Don't see why should
be any different. Prepare surface as suggested by finish manufacturer.

--

On 7/6/2008 1:05 PM bent spake thus:

Has another used or will recommend buying the accessories that you
can buy from Lee Valley for sharpening a cabinet scraper? I think I
can sharpen and flatten the scraper alright without extra tools. Just
need a good flat file after it is normal and true then take a few
final level swipes. But I have yet to get a piece of (round) metal
stock of hardness greater than the scraper for putting the crucial
finish on it, and you just can't find something anywhere around the
whole house can you. There are two (2) items I think might do the
job, a piston wrist pin or a valve lifer, form an automobile, but
don't know if either is a good fit.

I've used the stem of an old automobile valve with good results; it's
hardened, probably as hard or harder than the scraper. They make special
tools ("scraper burnishers") for this, but they're expen$ive.


--
"Wikipedia ... it reminds me ... of dogs barking idiotically through
endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it.
It drags itself out of the dark abyss of pish, and crawls insanely up
the topmost pinnacle of posh. It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and
doodle. It is balder and dash."

- With apologies to H. L. Mencken

bent wrote:
Any notes on neutralizing this stuff after so the Spar poly will
stickum goodly?

b:

Use a sodium bicarbonate slurry. If you want to be exact, get some ph
strips (try your
local nursery) and test on the runoff from a section to determine what
concentration
it takes to get your residual solution either near neutral or to the ph of
your tap water.
Baker's supply stores have bicarbonate in economical larger quantities.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

"dpb" wrote in message ...
bent wrote:
...
oxalic acid, or any other product. Oh ya, and where do I get it
in Toronto? Not LV, CT, HH, or HD!

Many of the deck cleaners that HD had last time I was painting were
oxalic-acid based. Can't imagine they don't have the crystals,
either, but I don't know Toronto. If not, any full line paint
supplier certainly should...

--


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Try here for an inexpensive burnisher:
http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?fam...oductID=142576

I use this for the whole job:
http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?fam...oductID=141025

As for oxalic acid, I just had my local hardware store order a case of
24 1 lb containers. Any good hardware or paint store should be able to
do the same thing. I'd urge not using a chlorine bleach. The results
with oxalic acid will be far better. Water is all that is needed after
bleaching with oxalic acid. No neutralization with a base is needed.



bent wrote:
I need to brighten/ bleach my pine picnic table 2"x12"x8' boards that
have the blackened water marks, etc. before I finish with Spar. Its
great to see after its done so. I have liquid pool chlorine, which does
a great job of whitening, but may have its own drawbacks (maybe not),
but someone mentioned oxalic acid instead. The problem with pool
chlorine is that the poly doesn't stick after, but I've only ever done
it once or so to know whatever I did or didn't do didn't adequately
rid/neutralize it. Again someone mentioned sanding. I could work
chlorine in earlier to the overall re&re process this time. I probably
did nothing or a light water rinse before, &/or maybe a light sand.
Again any further comments about neutralizing for either the chlorine or
oxalic acid, or any other product. Oh ya, and where do I get it in
Toronto? Not LV, CT, HH, or HD!

Has another used or will recommend buying the accessories that you can
buy from Lee Valley for sharpening a cabinet scraper? I think I can
sharpen and flatten the scraper alright without extra tools. Just need
a good flat file after it is normal and true then take a few final level
swipes. But I have yet to get a piece of (round) metal stock of
hardness greater than the scraper for putting the crucial finish on it,
and you just can't find something anywhere around the whole house can
you. There are two (2) items I think might do the job, a piston wrist
pin or a valve lifer, form an automobile, but don't know if either is a
good fit. To get the hook I get the feeling (experimenting with a
kitchen knife sharpening tool) that a load of exertion is required, and
then there is the skill level too. I'm no craftsman but for getting rid
of bondo on a door jamb there is no other tool, and the list goes on.
But I wish I could get mine working right; barely useable as a paper
weight when I am done with it currently. So here are the LV products.
Are they good investments? About $37 for a sharpener! Or should I get
to the auto rebuilders with a fiver?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,310,41070
Veritas® Variable Burnisher
05K37.01 Not the round one (to make a hook cuz I've made better with a
blow torch and stair railing)

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,43072,43089
Veritas® Jointer/Edger
05M07.01 I am pretty sure I don't need this (for flattening/truing)


BTW Is the simple act of posting here in NGs lately causing my junk
mail quantity to increase? You can e-mail me an answer if you wish!?

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So you are telling me that you are aware that this problem specifically
exists, and this is a precise proven remedy? I have had the problem and if
this is serious (as opposed to a suggestion) I will probably take this
advice. I must be sure this is not in the early stages of an educated guess
before I can and will rely on it.
Q1
This (specifically) is serious advice?

Is this for either of the chlorine &/or the oxalic acid solution? because
I'm inclined to go directly to the chlorine solution, because I know it is
effective colour- (brightening) wise. However I don't know what the oxalic
acid method is like, and the latter adhesion? I don't know if the Cl not
sticking is a pH thing requiring your solution, but I can see why the oxalic
acid is a pH thing (acidpH)!?
Q2
Does this solution advice pertain to my Chlorine "brightening" previous
non-adhesion problem?

I already have test strips for pool water. They read pH with a dipped strip
compared to five swatch colours on the back of the bottle: 6.2 6.8 7.2 7.8
and 8.4, but with colours it is easy to see if the pH is on either side of
the scale.
Q3
So is this the type of strip that's gonna work?

I think I have carbonate something also from the pool chemical supplies.
Hey, is this a joke... ok I have....there's bottles labeled literally "pH
Up" which contains "sodium carbonate", "pH Down" which contains "acid
sulphate of soda". I had a post about a week ago in alt.home.repair about
pool chemicals & pH.
Q4 Is a sodium carbonate slurry the right stuff?

Sorry I didn't mean to get carried away. TIA. I am grateful to have
learned this. This pool stores web page has "pH Down", "pH Up", and "Insta
Test", the same type of stuff I already have. Found at interpools.com,
using the search text string "pH Up":

http://www.interpools.com/webstore.t...ED992348719C13


Use a sodium bicarbonate slurry. If you want to be exact, get some ph
strips (try your
local nursery) and test on the runoff from a section to determine what
concentration
it takes to get your residual solution either near neutral or to the ph of
your tap water.
Baker's supply stores have bicarbonate in economical larger quantities.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey


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Sure, come on, you'll love it, everyone needs a car, only $25, 000.00....
and then theres the gas, maintenance, this and that, only another $88,
000.99...


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I have to point out (now of course) I was thinking of a free or $5 wrist pin
from an engine rebuilders or something. I'd have to call and drive out to
pick it up from wherever.

Actually with a round stock metal tool, (with the looks of a knife
sharpener), I think theres little difference to a piston's wrist pin. It
requires some skill level, which I am asking if it is taken out of the
picture with the other kind (at LV or your all in one tool)? If I were to
go into $20 I may put this tool into the category of the tool that LV has,
the one like your's. Same level of commitment. But is it only half the
tool of the adjustable one from LV~!? I am curious what people think about
the need of one though, compared with having something that is "by hand"
(like the first of your links, or a (free or $5 wrist pin). Or for that
matter if a wrist pin is worth sourcing used comopared to the round tool; if
there gonna be much of a difference between those two?


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bent wrote:
So you are telling me that you are aware that this problem
specifically exists, and this is a precise proven remedy? I have had the
problem and if this is serious (as opposed to a suggestion) I will
probably take
this advice. I must be sure this is not in the early stages of an
educated guess before I can and will rely on it.
Q1
This (specifically) is serious advice?

Is this for either of the chlorine &/or the oxalic acid solution? because
I'm inclined to go directly to the chlorine solution, because I
know it is effective colour- (brightening) wise. However I don't
know what the oxalic acid method is like, and the latter adhesion? I
don't know if the
Cl not sticking is a pH thing requiring your solution, but I can see why
the oxalic acid is a pH thing (acidpH)!?
Q2
Does this solution advice pertain to my Chlorine "brightening"
previous non-adhesion problem?

I already have test strips for pool water. They read pH with a
dipped strip compared to five swatch colours on the back of the
bottle: 6.2 6.8 7.2 7.8 and 8.4, but with colours it is easy to see if
the pH is on either
side of the scale.
Q3
So is this the type of strip that's gonna work?

I think I have carbonate something also from the pool chemical
supplies. Hey, is this a joke... ok I have....there's bottles labeled
literally "pH Up" which contains "sodium carbonate", "pH Down" which
contains
"acid sulphate of soda". I had a post about a week ago in
alt.home.repair about pool chemicals & pH.
Q4 Is a sodium carbonate slurry the right stuff?

Sorry I didn't mean to get carried away. TIA. I am grateful to
have learned this. This pool stores web page has "pH Down", "pH Up",
and "Insta Test", the same type of stuff I already have. Found at
interpools.com, using the search text string "pH Up":

B:

I haven't seen your prior post. Short answer, your best advice is always
from the
manufacturer of the paint you intend to finish with.

What I am saying is if you want to make your substrate as neutral as it can
be given
the nature of its composition, the bicarbonate will balance the oxalic acid
and, quite
likely, so will your base (carbonate) pool chemicals. And, yes, your pool
test strips
will work here.

One chemical reason chlorine and fluorine
are used in potable water is because halogens combine destructively with
many other contaminating elements, including those in bacteria. If you
painted over a deck with
chlorine still wetted in the substrate, that would not be good. Neither
would painting anything wet to begin with. Not that you would do either of
those two things. However, since the halogens have a short life in the
atmosphere because of their reactivity. Sun and oxygenation should degrade
them quite rapidly. If you wash any wood with energetic chemicals, you
should rinse heavily and let it get about 3 days of a good sun drying
before thinking of painting and then you should be
good to go.

Frankly, I've not used the oxalic approach since I've never had a situation
that couldn't be addressed
by a good wash with clean water and detergent, rinsing and drying. But if
you decide to use the oxalic
approach and are worried about residuals after rinsing, the addition of a
slurry of neutralizing bases
and a good rinse will address that.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

"bent" wrote in message
...
Again any further comments about neutralizing for
either the chlorine or oxalic acid, or any other product. Oh ya, and
where do I get it in Toronto? Not LV, CT, HH, or HD!

If paint/hardware stores don't work out..... a commercial Janitor supply
house might......I also years ago (1980's) in a pinch got some from a
pharmacy, I'd think not the cheapest source but it worked well for me on a
large mahogany water marked/stained window ledge and for the project the
cost was incidental...customer was happy. I don't recall any significant
problem with neutralizing, if I recall I just used a careful water rinse,
maybe several. If you still can't find it there is also a product called
ZUD, basically a scouring powder with Oxalic acid, it works great on stained
porcelain, but would require more effort to rinse unless you can just hose
it off.

Has another used or will recommend buying the accessories that you can buy
from Lee Valley for sharpening a cabinet scraper? I think I can sharpen
and flatten the scraper alright without extra tools. Just need a good
flat file after it is normal and true then take a few final level swipes.
But I have yet to get a piece of (round) metal stock of hardness greater
than the scraper for putting the crucial finish on it, and you just can't
find something anywhere around the whole house can you.

I use an old smooth "steel"....normally used for knives...... In a pinch a
good screw driver shaft will get you by and I've oft heard a old automotive
valve stem works fine.....any very hard smooth metal shaft will get the job
done.

Rod

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
"bent" wrote in message
...
Again any further comments about neutralizing for
either the chlorine or oxalic acid, or any other product. Oh ya,
and
where do I get it in Toronto? Not LV, CT, HH, or HD!

If paint/hardware stores don't work out..... a commercial Janitor
supply house might......I also years ago (1980's) in a pinch got
some
from a pharmacy, I'd think not the cheapest source but it worked
well
for me on a large mahogany water marked/stained window ledge and for
the project the cost was incidental...customer was happy. I don't
recall any significant problem with neutralizing, if I recall I just
used a careful water rinse, maybe several. If you still can't find
it there is also a product called ZUD, basically a scouring powder
with Oxalic acid, it works great on stained porcelain, but would
require more effort to rinse unless you can just hose it off.

Another possibility is "Barkeeper's Friend", similar to ZUD. Their
web site (http://barkeepersfriend.com) lists retail locations,
including several in Toronto.

Has another used or will recommend buying the accessories that you
can buy from Lee Valley for sharpening a cabinet scraper? I think
I
can sharpen and flatten the scraper alright without extra tools.
Just need a good flat file after it is normal and true then take a
few final level swipes. But I have yet to get a piece of (round)
metal stock of hardness greater than the scraper for putting the
crucial finish on it, and you just can't find something anywhere
around the whole house can you.

I use an old smooth "steel"....normally used for knives...... In a
pinch a good screw driver shaft will get you by and I've oft heard a
old automotive valve stem works fine.....any very hard smooth metal
shaft will get the job done.

The shank of a drill bit will generally do it. The main advantage of
the purpose-made tools is that you can get a good grip on them. Being
a klutzone I gouge myself regularly on a corner of the scraper if I
don't use something with a bit of a handle on it.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Edward Hennessey wrote:
....
Frankly, I've not used the oxalic approach ...

I've used it extensively...

... worried about residuals after rinsing, the addition of a
slurry of neutralizing bases
and a good rinse will address that.

....and can avow it's totally unnecessary and simply leaves one w/ a case
of now making sure aren't the other way imo...

Use manufacturer's recommendations as noted and all will be well.

--

Afa preparing the scrapers edge: after the file method (and a little draw
filing) I would use a fine stone (like the 3/8"x3/8"x1-1/4" that comes with
rotary tool acc. kits, etc.), or a piece of sandpaper on a 1/4" glass,
etc.. Just to illustrate the extent of the most difficult part of the
job. I think anyone can do this step adequately, and there is no need for
any tool. Unless anyone states otherwise.

I cannot even remember when a hook is necc, or more beneficial, and the
rough to fine edges' properties/characteristics, but I know this requires a
lot of force energy and maybe a little experience. But hoping to create a
hook with anything but the best of equipment design and materials is a
daunting task if you ask me! You might as well ask me to try to drill a
hole in a brick with a stick. If I were to use a drill bit the first thing
I would need is a pair of thick gloves ( supposed to be a knife sharp edge
(diff ) all the way up). I am not sure if I have tried a drill bit. The
$37 tool must have magical properties! I am sure I tried a screwdriver, as
I am sure it left only gouges in the shaft. Mind you, enough shaft exists
that I may be able get the job done, but not well. There is a reason things
are the way they are. If nothing else I have read Machinery Handbook, so I
understand a little bit of the metallurgical physics. Without the hardness
on your side from the outset, for me its a losing battle. I have tried the
best of the bad methods (materials) in a mechanics vice on several
occasions, sweating and freaking out, for time till completion and my coat
had the only hook around!

Forget about it. The material of screwdriver blade shafts just isn't hard
enough. It can be hardened (then tempered) but the steel must start out its
life in a generally strengthish state and that is exponentially expensive to
the end user. There is literally nothing around anywhere the the exception
of a few surfaces in our automobiles. Even these are often inserts and the
entire design changed to reflect that. The fact that the business end of
the tool is a tiny piece is no coincidence. HSS (high speed steel: well
documented properties) drill bits are not that hard, nor are the
gold-coloured bits (with the low percentage of the element cobalt I think).
Even -Carbides, or the binding element allows the name, e.g. Ti, within a
name, to be used. A little Carbon, a large dose of price. The percentages
and properties are regulated. Regardless of where its bought its all from
off the rack stock. Things like router bit inserts are different. The tips
(largest total volume about the size of a chicklet, ~$75) are welded onto
tool steels of HSS-like harness. Titanium is dull gray in colour, not even
close to gold. The cost and hardness is directly proportional as is the
quantity available, these are not hardness- competing animals. A $100 small
drill bit set is harder than a gold-colour set, which is harder than a HSS
set, which is harder than most things around the home anywhere. I am out of
my total depth here, I am aware of the rest, but none is as hard as I need.
You are taking the square corner of a piece of high hardness (harder than
all the above) even in steady state steel, about 1/16" thick and pushing it
with your fingers to become something else. But this is not a simple, quick
job. I can easily see slicing your arm wide open, or breaking a finger,
bashed knuckles. You could bash the thing with a hammer and not get the
edge you need. In fact I could see a tool coming with a hand crank to get
the job done!



Rod wrote,
In a pinch a good screw driver shaft will get you by and I've oft heard a
old automotive
valve stem works fine.....any very hard smooth metal shaft will get the job
done.

& then
--John
wrote

The shank of a drill bit will generally do it. The main advantage of
the purpose-made tools is that you can get a good grip on them. Being
a klutzone I gouge myself regularly on a corner of the scraper if I
don't use something with a bit of a handle on it.



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I am trying to figure out why gold bits are called titanium, but its not
really important. If it was to me I wouldn't be asking. Theres a
ga-billion ways, with all kinds of factors to consider. Some titanium
nitride coated, say on a moly vanadium bar stock are gold. I was just
trying to point out a basic point, which may not be any or all factual.


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On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 18:55:49 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

I've used the stem of an old automobile valve with good results;

If you do this, fit a handle. It's far to easy to slip otherwise - one
way you ding the sscraper, the other way it's your knuckles.

They make special tools ("scraper burnishers") for this, but they're expen$ive.

Mine was cheap. So cheap that it's easier than putting handles on
valves.

The Veritas adjustable angle one is really pretty good.