On 7/26/2015 9:48 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article 729365498459608725.798858lcb11211-
, says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article s.com,
says...

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.

You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.

I wonder however how many mortises you could cut in a single size with a
single bit.

If you're using the same bit that Festool uses you should get the same
number unless you manage to break the bit. Nothing magic about a router
bit.

Well there is nothing about a router bit, but the domino bit is
considerable different than a router bit. The whole plunge process
probably makes 20 back and forth passes while plunging. The side of the
bit past the first 3/16" or so from the tip does no cutting. I used to
do a lot of plunge cutting for Steve Knight and typical two wong carbide
blades hardly made it past 400 plunges 2" wide. Once I went to an end
mill bit I upped that to at least 1,000 cuts.





For certain my single 5mm bit has cut 8,000 + perfect
mortises. When I bought my Domino I knew I would use it but was clueless
that I would use it as much as I have. Even as a person that sells 80
percent of my work I do this for fun and certainly my volume does not come
near a living, and the time savings has paid for the tool countless times.

Yep, like I said, if you're doing it commercially in volume and getting
paid for it, it justifies itself on time saved.

My work has increased in quality because I have the Domino. The Domino
lets you focus more on designing and building the desired piece vs. doing
the same and with complicated jigs.
A lot of the type of work that I do with the Domino was not even on the
radar when I bought the tool. What I normally would have used a plunge
router for with or with our jigs I do with the Domino.
Basically what I am saying here is that I value my free time and that the
Domino solves more problems than I ever could have imagined without the
needs to design and build jigs. I use it in more ways than I imagined when
considering the purchase.
I think that some of the jigs needed for a plunge router to do the same
cuts that I make with the Domino one might need to be more skilled to
design and build those jigs than need be to simply make the complicated
cuts with a a Domino.

No question once you've got such a tool you find uses for it. But the
request was for something with less durability and more limited
capability and I was merely pointing out that jigs and a plunge router
provide that option.

Agreed but once you actually cut a thousand or so mortises the price of
the Domino seems insignificant.

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/26/2015 9:48 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article 729365498459608725.798858lcb11211-
, says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article s.com,
says...

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.

You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.

I wonder however how many mortises you could cut in a single size with a
single bit.

If you're using the same bit that Festool uses you should get the same
number unless you manage to break the bit. Nothing magic about a router
bit.

Well there is nothing about a router bit, but the domino bit is
considerable different than a router bit. The whole plunge process
probably makes 20 back and forth passes while plunging. The side of the
bit past the first 3/16" or so from the tip does no cutting.

So you don't plunge it more than 3/16 in a pass. The point is that
there's nothing that prevents you from sticking a Domino bit in a plunge
router.

I used to
do a lot of plunge cutting for Steve Knight and typical two wong carbide
blades hardly made it past 400 plunges 2" wide. Once I went to an end
mill bit I upped that to at least 1,000 cuts.

No question once you've got such a tool you find uses for it. But
the
request was for something with less durability and more limited
capability and I was merely pointing out that jigs and a plunge router
provide that option.

Agreed but once you actually cut a thousand or so mortises the price of
the Domino seems insignificant.

On 7/26/2015 2:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/26/2015 9:48 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article 729365498459608725.798858lcb11211-
, says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article s.com,
says...

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.

You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.

I wonder however how many mortises you could cut in a single size with a
single bit.

If you're using the same bit that Festool uses you should get the same
number unless you manage to break the bit. Nothing magic about a router
bit.

Well there is nothing about a router bit, but the domino bit is
considerable different than a router bit. The whole plunge process
probably makes 20 back and forth passes while plunging. The side of the
bit past the first 3/16" or so from the tip does no cutting.

So you don't plunge it more than 3/16 in a pass. The point is that
there's nothing that prevents you from sticking a Domino bit in a plunge
router.

A side note here the Domino bits screw on to a male threaded shaft so
they are hollow on the screw end and they are just less than 10MM in
diameter so they might fit in a 10mm collet. And those bit's are
designed to cut in a sweeping arc, they may not cut as well or last as
long cutting in a straight line. The cutting end is rather unique.

I understand that all of this could be done with a plunge router but
some of us prefer to be spending more time actually building something
other than jigs. ;~) I think a jig is great if it saves you time.

But seriously have you got a jig that will allow your plunge router to
cut these? Keep in mind the bottoms of these mortises are 27mm from the
very end of these pieces of wood, not the surface that the mortise
begins. And the 5mm bit will not cut a 27mm deep mortise. The bit has
a shoulder that prevents this deep of a plunge cut. The mortises have
to be cut "after" the 1/2" deep and 1/2" wide section of material is
removed.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Then those mortises have to match and index properly with these.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Now, for another example. I am going to assume you have a biscuit
cutter. I'm also going to assume you have cut hundreds of slots for
biscuits.
Before you bought your biscuit jointer did you seriously consider
cutting that many biscuits slots before you bought it?
Did you consider or actually build a jig and use a plunge router to cut
that many slots before buying the biscuit cutter?

If your goal is to build 6~8 pieces of furniture for your home in a
decade your suggestion makes a lot of sense if you have the skill to
design the many jigs necessary to make the multiple types of mortises
that you may need to cut. In the last 4 years I have built 11 large
pieces of furniture for our home and never would have had the extra time
to build the other 25 or so pieces in the same period for my customers.
With the Domino my production has probably increased 500 percent. And
Sketchup plus Cutlist Plus have been significant times savers too.

On 07/26/2015 5:08 PM, Leon wrote:
....

But seriously have you got a jig that will allow your plunge router to
cut these? Keep in mind the bottoms of these mortises are 27mm from the
very end of these pieces of wood, not the surface that the mortise
begins. And the 5mm bit will not cut a 27mm deep mortise. The bit has a
shoulder that prevents this deep of a plunge cut. The mortises have to
be cut "after" the 1/2" deep and 1/2" wide section of material is removed.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

....

No, but I would simply cut a standard tenon on the rail and the matching
mortise on the stile instead...same end result although I'd probably not
both with cutting the tenon down but leave it full width as it would
take more handwork otherwise.

I don't quite get the purpose of the overlapping front edge, anyways,
though??? One's got a but joint visible from the front either way so
there's no difference in precision in length or squareness or anything
to get the fit...

--

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/26/2015 2:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/26/2015 9:48 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article 729365498459608725.798858lcb11211-
, says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article s.com,
says...

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.

You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.

I wonder however how many mortises you could cut in a single size with a
single bit.

If you're using the same bit that Festool uses you should get the same
number unless you manage to break the bit. Nothing magic about a router
bit.

Well there is nothing about a router bit, but the domino bit is
considerable different than a router bit. The whole plunge process
probably makes 20 back and forth passes while plunging. The side of the
bit past the first 3/16" or so from the tip does no cutting.

So you don't plunge it more than 3/16 in a pass. The point is that
there's nothing that prevents you from sticking a Domino bit in a plunge
router.

A side note here the Domino bits screw on to a male threaded shaft so
they are hollow on the screw end and they are just less than 10MM in
diameter so they might fit in a 10mm collet. And those bit's are
designed to cut in a sweeping arc, they may not cut as well or last as
long cutting in a straight line. The cutting end is rather unique.

I understand that all of this could be done with a plunge router but
some of us prefer to be spending more time actually building something
other than jigs. ;~) I think a jig is great if it saves you time.

But seriously have you got a jig that will allow your plunge router to
cut these? Keep in mind the bottoms of these mortises are 27mm from the
very end of these pieces of wood, not the surface that the mortise
begins. And the 5mm bit will not cut a 27mm deep mortise. The bit has
a shoulder that prevents this deep of a plunge cut. The mortises have
to be cut "after" the 1/2" deep and 1/2" wide section of material is
removed.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Then those mortises have to match and index properly with these.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

I'm pretty sure the Incra on the router table could handle those. Might
use up some scrap getting the adjustment right.

Now, for another example. I am going to assume you have a biscuit
cutter. I'm also going to assume you have cut hundreds of slots for
biscuits.
Before you bought your biscuit jointer did you seriously consider
cutting that many biscuits slots before you bought it?
Did you consider or actually build a jig and use a plunge router to cut
that many slots before buying the biscuit cutter?

Plunge router isn't the right tool for biscuits. But no, I've got a
biscuit joiner but I hardly ever bother with it. Thinking about it, I
_could_ have used it for something today--thanks for reminding me that I
have the thing.

If your goal is to build 6~8 pieces of furniture for your home in a
decade your suggestion makes a lot of sense if you have the skill to
design the many jigs necessary to make the multiple types of mortises
that you may need to cut. In the last 4 years I have built 11 large
pieces of furniture for our home and never would have had the extra time
to build the other 25 or so pieces in the same period for my customers.
With the Domino my production has probably increased 500 percent. And
Sketchup plus Cutlist Plus have been significant times savers too.

My goal is to relax and take my mind off of work by doing something
creative that I enjoy. Furniture is a side effect. Building a jig
accomplishes my objective just as effectively as making furniture.

I don't really care about "increasing my production" and since I've
already stipulated that the Domino is easy to justify in any kind of
production environment I don't really understand why you are so
defensive about it.

dpb wrote:
On 07/26/2015 5:08 PM, Leon wrote:
...

But seriously have you got a jig that will allow your plunge router to
cut these? Keep in mind the bottoms of these mortises are 27mm from the
very end of these pieces of wood, not the surface that the mortise
begins. And the 5mm bit will not cut a 27mm deep mortise. The bit has a
shoulder that prevents this deep of a plunge cut. The mortises have to
be cut "after" the 1/2" deep and 1/2" wide section of material is removed.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

...

No, but I would simply cut a standard tenon on the rail and the matching
mortise on the stile instead...same end result although I'd probably not
both with cutting the tenon down but leave it full width as it would take
more handwork otherwise.

I don't quite get the purpose of the overlapping front edge, anyways,
though??? One's got a but joint visible from the front either way so
there's no difference in precision in length or squareness or anything to get the fit...

--

Those rails and stiles are for the back face frame of a cabinet. The lap
joints allow me to rabbit the pieces to form an indention for the back
panel to fit into. The floating tenons reinforce the joints.

Here is how that fits together
https://flic.kr/p/hQxWqZ
https://flic.kr/p/hQxWWt

On 7/26/2015 8:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/26/2015 2:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/26/2015 9:48 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article 729365498459608725.798858lcb11211-
, says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article s.com,
says...

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.

You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.

I wonder however how many mortises you could cut in a single size with a
single bit.

If you're using the same bit that Festool uses you should get the same
number unless you manage to break the bit. Nothing magic about a router
bit.

Well there is nothing about a router bit, but the domino bit is
considerable different than a router bit. The whole plunge process
probably makes 20 back and forth passes while plunging. The side of the
bit past the first 3/16" or so from the tip does no cutting.

So you don't plunge it more than 3/16 in a pass. The point is that
there's nothing that prevents you from sticking a Domino bit in a plunge
router.

A side note here the Domino bits screw on to a male threaded shaft so
they are hollow on the screw end and they are just less than 10MM in
diameter so they might fit in a 10mm collet. And those bit's are
designed to cut in a sweeping arc, they may not cut as well or last as
long cutting in a straight line. The cutting end is rather unique.

I understand that all of this could be done with a plunge router but
some of us prefer to be spending more time actually building something
other than jigs. ;~) I think a jig is great if it saves you time.

But seriously have you got a jig that will allow your plunge router to
cut these? Keep in mind the bottoms of these mortises are 27mm from the
very end of these pieces of wood, not the surface that the mortise
begins. And the 5mm bit will not cut a 27mm deep mortise. The bit has
a shoulder that prevents this deep of a plunge cut. The mortises have
to be cut "after" the 1/2" deep and 1/2" wide section of material is
removed.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Then those mortises have to match and index properly with these.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

I'm pretty sure the Incra on the router table could handle those. Might
use up some scrap getting the adjustment right.

Yet another tool... ;~) Getting more complicated.




Now, for another example. I am going to assume you have a biscuit
cutter. I'm also going to assume you have cut hundreds of slots for
biscuits.
Before you bought your biscuit jointer did you seriously consider
cutting that many biscuits slots before you bought it?
Did you consider or actually build a jig and use a plunge router to cut
that many slots before buying the biscuit cutter?

Plunge router isn't the right tool for biscuits.

Really!!! Why not? Put a slot cutting blade on the router and the deed
is done lickety split. I use a slot cutting blade for cutting the panel
grove in arched door rails, surprisingly smooooooooth. For face in panel
slots change bits to straight. Ever easier than using for cutting
mortices for floating tenons.



But no, I've got a
biscuit joiner but I hardly ever bother with it. Thinking about it, I
_could_ have used it for something today--thanks for reminding me that I
have the thing.

Mine is under a pile of dust somewhere. ;~)




If your goal is to build 6~8 pieces of furniture for your home in a
decade your suggestion makes a lot of sense if you have the skill to
design the many jigs necessary to make the multiple types of mortises
that you may need to cut. In the last 4 years I have built 11 large
pieces of furniture for our home and never would have had the extra time
to build the other 25 or so pieces in the same period for my customers.
With the Domino my production has probably increased 500 percent. And
Sketchup plus Cutlist Plus have been significant times savers too.

My goal is to relax and take my mind off of work by doing something
creative that I enjoy. Furniture is a side effect. Building a jig
accomplishes my objective just as effectively as making furniture.

And that is perfectly fine. I am only advocating the Domino for those
wanting to speed up production and use more M&T jointery.



I don't really care about "increasing my production" and since I've
already stipulated that the Domino is easy to justify in any kind of
production environment I don't really understand why you are so
defensive about it.


And I did not mean to sound defensive. When I bought mine I was not
nearly as busy, as I was pretty picky about what jobs I would take. Too
complicated and that became too much time involved. I would have been
right beside you on the comments about the doing this with another tool.
BUT after having the thing I can do the complicated joints quickly and
accurately so naturally I turn less work down and my production is
faster. Different strokes.... There are a few here that have
eventually bought a Domino and I don't think they have regretted it
whether it was justified or not. AND FWIW The Domino is crazy more
accurate than a biscuit joiner, except maybe the Llamelo which is about
the same price as the Domino. Any way....

I think if there was any way at all I could justify buying a Domino, I would. I have only used it to cut a test slot, but having seen what it can do I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I needed it. Having seen Leon's use of it over the years as well as understanding how he uses it has sold me. I don't know of anyone that has been more creative in that tool's use. I have seen him use it for building great joints, as an alignment device that gives great connectivity and even as a decorative feature in a joinery.

The Domino reminds me of when I got my first "hole shooter" or drill that was powerful enough to drive screws back in '75. You could buy a drill to make a hole in general carpentry use, but a real Milwaukee "hole shooter" along with long Phillips screws that were drivable changed everything. In '75 a "good drill" was about $30. A Milwaukee drill that could drive screws all day long was a whopping $90. Drivable screws were expensive themselves and hard to come by, but after about 2-3 years the screws were everywhere.

We soon found out in use you couldn't drive the longer screws with cheap drills. More and more we were screwing things together as we found out that you didn't need to clamp, you didn't need room to apply a mechanical fastener, and they held very well. I was working in commercial then, and we started screwing everything together. My screw driving drill was just as important to me as my circular saw. Strangely, most of my carpenter friends wouldn't invest in a powerful drill to drive screws. What a shame.., my forty year old drill still works, so I would say it was certainly worth it.

I think another similarity is the fact that the more we screwed things together, the more things we thought of we could do more easily by screwing instead of nailing. We didn't need to clamp as much and the joints still snugged up tight so that made their use much quicker to connect wood, and even dissimilar materials. When we started doing all steel framing, it required the ubiquitous "sheetrock screw" that you see in all sizes now. Then suddenly, there were screwguns, screw shooters, and we started to get details from architects that required components to be screwed together.

I see the Domino that way, and if they ever get to the point where their patents expire or the license out their technology, I would be that there would be a slew of new uses for that machine, just like the old screwshooters.

And like the Fein multitool. Now that I have beat the living snot out of my HF model, I would have bought the Fein model and gladly paid the fortune they were asking for it had I known how useful it is. I had no idea... but the longer I have it the more I find to do with it.

Robert

" wrote:
I think if there was any way at all I could justify buying a Domino, I
would. I have only used it to cut a test slot, but having seen what it
can do I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I needed it. Having seen Leon's
use of it over the years as well as understanding how he uses it has
sold me. I don't know of anyone that has been more creative in that
tool's use. I have seen him use it for building great joints, as an
alignment device that gives great connectivity and even as a decorative
feature in a joinery.

The Domino reminds me of when I got my first "hole shooter" or drill that
was powerful enough to drive screws back in '75. You could buy a drill
to make a hole in general carpentry use, but a real Milwaukee "hole
shooter" along with long Phillips screws that were drivable changed
everything. In '75 a "good drill" was about $30. A Milwaukee drill that
could drive screws all day long was a whopping $90. Drivable screws were
expensive themselves and hard to come by, but after about 2-3 years the
screws were everywhere.

We soon found out in use you couldn't drive the longer screws with cheap
drills. More and more we were screwing things together as we found out
that you didn't need to clamp, you didn't need room to apply a mechanical
fastener, and they held very well. I was working in commercial then, and
we started screwing everything together. My screw driving drill was just
as important to me as my circular saw. Strangely, most of my carpenter
friends wouldn't invest in a powerful drill to drive screws. What a
shame.., my forty year old drill still works, so I would say it was certainly worth it.

I think another similarity is the fact that the more we screwed things
together, the more things we thought of we could do more easily by
screwing instead of nailing. We didn't need to clamp as much and the
joints still snugged up tight so that made their use much quicker to
connect wood, and even dissimilar materials. When we started doing all
steel framing, it required the ubiquitous "sheetrock screw" that you see
in all sizes now. Then suddenly, there were screwguns, screw shooters,
and we started to get details from architects that required components to
be screwed together.

I see the Domino that way, and if they ever get to the point where their
patents expire or the license out their technology, I would be that there
would be a slew of new uses for that machine, just like the old screwshooters.

And like the Fein multitool. Now that I have beat the living snot out of
my HF model, I would have bought the Fein model and gladly paid the
fortune they were asking for it had I known how useful it is. I had no
idea... but the longer I have it the more I find to do with it.

Robert

I have an old, relatively old, DeWalt 3/8 corded drill. It is a decent
drill and probably the best corded that I have owned. Swingman has a
Milwaukee hole shooter and I have used it. That will be my next corded
drill. Those drills simply spin the chuck and anything attached to the
chuck "or" it spins the operator. :-). There is no staling that drill,
pull the trigger and something is going to spin, the chuck or the drill and
what is holding the drill. It has a simple task and it does that better
than any drill that I have ever used.

And speaking of drills, here it comes, wait for it, there is something
similar to the hole shooter in the cordless drills. Four years ago I was
using the best brand of cordless drill that I had ever owned, Makita. It
was a 12 volt model and I also had its side kick the impact driver. That
was my first impact and as most know the impact is one of those tools you
don't really understand its versatility until you start using one. It
effectively replaced the corded DeWalt when extra grunt was needed. I
would say that 98% of what I needed to spin was done with the combination
of those two Makita tools.
Four years ago I was on my second set of batteries and in need of my third
set and after 7-8 years there were improved models out there. Last
Christmas 3 years ago my wife bought me the Festool T-15-3 cordless drill
set. Well I could have bought another new Makita drill, impact, charger,
and a pair of batteries for less than half of what she paid. It was at
least comforting to know that with Festool's pricing policy that she did
not have to shop the suppliers to get the best price.
So for the last 3-1/2 years neither of the Makitas, or the Bosch impact,
that mysteriously showed up on my door step several years ago, or the
corded DeWalt have seen any action. I thought surely I would have to keep
one of the impacts going but have not found that to be true. I went from
using the Makita impact for 65% of my driving needs to zero after getting
the Festool t-15 drill.
I'm not sure if it is the brushless technology or simply the Festool's
superior quality but it drives 3-1/2" deck screws with no hesitation. Now
most any drill will do that but I can drive the screw at most any speed,
even at a crawl, and stop 3/4 into the edge of a 2x4 and resume driving
that screw with just a slight pull of the trigger.
I was almost overjoyed to learn a few days ago that Festool warrants their
new replacement batteries with the same 3 year warranty as all of their
other tools. And equally as happy that they announced that they dropped
their pricing on their batteries. A little research with an on line
retailer indicated that I can buy a new Li-ion 5.2 amp battery for $55,
shipped.

On 7/29/2015 1:19 AM, wrote:
The Domino reminds me of when I got my first "hole shooter" or drill that was powerful enough to drive screws back in '75.

Reminds me of a time when I focused on building recording studios.

All of the interior framing (double stud) was done with a hole shooter
and screws, maybe not IBC by today's standards, but guaranteed
effective, and still standing.

--
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