Could you guys say a bit more (from that prior thread)
about refrigerators not wanting to be placed in a
room where the temp was less than 40F.

If true, it presents us a big problem:

We've got a 2nd refrig (without which we couldn't
go to the store (cosco) just once a week), and right
now it lives in a normal room in the house (normal
temp, that is).

But circumstances are forcing us to need more space
in that room, and we were seriously thinking of
moving it out to the garage.

Well, we're in New York State (just north of NYC),
and it can get *cold* here -- and what with having
an old house, with the garage unheated, it can get
down to 30F, maybe sometimes 25F or a bit lower.

(We wrap the pipes with those plug-in things that
wrap around them in a spiral, and they do keep
them from freezing.)

We'd sure *like* to put that refrig out there --
if possible.

So, exactly *why* can't it be out there?

(hopefully clear enough that I can show it to
the "boss" and she'll really understand *why*
it can't be done -- if that is the case (and
I suspect it is.))

Wouldn't mind an opion also from that guy
who knows all the thermodynamics, etc -- for
me, *that's* what I can best understand...

THANKS!

David

(What a super newsgroup this is -- all the
knowledge its members contain!)

"David Combs" wrote in message
Well, we're in New York State (just north of NYC),
and it can get *cold* here -- and what with having
an old house, with the garage unheated, it can get
down to 30F, maybe sometimes 25F or a bit lower.


So, exactly *why* can't it be out there?


Wouldn't mind an opion also from that guy
who knows all the thermodynamics, etc -- for
me, *that's* what I can best understand...

Since you understand thermodynamics, you can easily understand the problem.
Inside the fridge is a thermostat Once the temperature get below about 35 to
40 (depending on setting), it shuts the compressor off. It does not matter
what the freezer temperature is, the other portion is satisfied so no need
to add more cooling (actually, heat extraction). Thus, the freezer will
also attain the same temperature as the fridge portion since the ambient
provides all the heat removal needed.

The other situation is the oil in the compressor. It may thicken and cause
other problems when it does want to start.

Third problem is freezing. If the ambient goes steadily below freezing, the
refrigerator will freeze also. That may or may not be a problem for you.
Ed

"David Combs" wrote in message
...
Could you guys say a bit more (from that prior thread)
about refrigerators not wanting to be placed in a
room where the temp was less than 40F.

If true, it presents us a big problem:

We've got a 2nd refrig (without which we couldn't
go to the store (cosco) just once a week), and right
now it lives in a normal room in the house (normal
temp, that is).

But circumstances are forcing us to need more space
in that room, and we were seriously thinking of
moving it out to the garage.

Well, we're in New York State (just north of NYC),
and it can get *cold* here -- and what with having
an old house, with the garage unheated, it can get
down to 30F, maybe sometimes 25F or a bit lower.

(We wrap the pipes with those plug-in things that
wrap around them in a spiral, and they do keep
them from freezing.)

We'd sure *like* to put that refrig out there --
if possible.

So, exactly *why* can't it be out there?

(hopefully clear enough that I can show it to
the "boss" and she'll really understand *why*
it can't be done -- if that is the case (and
I suspect it is.))

Wouldn't mind an opion also from that guy
who knows all the thermodynamics, etc -- for
me, *that's* what I can best understand...

THANKS!

David

(What a super newsgroup this is -- all the
knowledge its members contain!)


This is Turtle.

I do this type of work and Ed nailed to the floor with his reply.

Now with what he said. you can still use it there and just take a odds that come
with it but your major thing here is the freezer compartment can go above
freezing in this condition and thaw out the frozen product and the refrigerator
will not come on in certain conditions. So You can loose some frozen goods by
running it there. Just don't depend on the freezer area for keeping the frozen
product froze.

TURTLE

I do this type of work and Ed nailed to the floor with his reply.

Now with what he said. you can still use it there and just take a odds that come
with it but your major thing here is the freezer compartment can go above
freezing in this condition and thaw out the frozen product and the refrigerator
will not come on in certain conditions. So You can loose some frozen goods by
running it there. Just don't depend on the freezer area for keeping the frozen
product froze.

TURTLE




You all know about the bumble bee story.
It flies nevertheless, when the law of physics and aerodynamics say it
can't

Well, I live in Minnesota and 9 years ago I did move a GE Side by Side
refrigerator in the garage/workshop with the wife using it as overflow.
It has been working flawlessly (29years old GE) and we never noticed
anything un- thawed in the freezer!

Now I am sure that it will stop working , now that I know it is not
supposed to work in that cold place

YMMV

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

...the freezer will also attain the same temperature as the fridge portion
since the ambient provides all the heat removal needed.

Freezer space becomes fridge space...

The other situation is the oil in the compressor. It may thicken and cause
other problems when it does want to start.

Unplug it :-)

Third problem is freezing. If the ambient goes steadily below freezing, the
refrigerator will freeze also...

An EH38 "Easy Heat thermostatically controlled device" ($10.99 at Lowe's)
in series with a 100 W trouble light in a drawer can prevent freezing.

Nick

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message om...
"David Combs" wrote in message
Well, we're in New York State (just north of NYC),
and it can get *cold* here -- and what with having
an old house, with the garage unheated, it can get
down to 30F, maybe sometimes 25F or a bit lower.


So, exactly *why* can't it be out there?


Wouldn't mind an opion also from that guy
who knows all the thermodynamics, etc -- for
me, *that's* what I can best understand...

Since you understand thermodynamics, you can easily understand the problem.
Inside the fridge is a thermostat Once the temperature get below about 35 to
40 (depending on setting), it shuts the compressor off. It does not matter
what the freezer temperature is, the other portion is satisfied so no need
to add more cooling (actually, heat extraction). Thus, the freezer will
also attain the same temperature as the fridge portion since the ambient
provides all the heat removal needed.

The other situation is the oil in the compressor. It may thicken and cause
other problems when it does want to start.

Third problem is freezing. If the ambient goes steadily below freezing, the
refrigerator will freeze also. That may or may not be a problem for you.
Ed

Thanks. I never thought about the internal thermostat being in the
refrig compartment and no sensor in the freezer. Very clear
explanation.

Harry K

David Combs wrote:

Well, we're in New York State (just north of NYC),
and it can get *cold* here -- and what with having
an old house, with the garage unheated, it can get
down to 30F, maybe sometimes 25F or a bit lower.

(We wrap the pipes with those plug-in things that
wrap around them in a spiral, and they do keep
them from freezing.)

We'd sure *like* to put that refrig out there --
if possible.

So, exactly *why* can't it be out there?


Heat the garage.

"Lionel C. Abrahams" wrote in message
...
I do this type of work and Ed nailed to the floor with his reply.

Now with what he said. you can still use it there and just take a odds that
come
with it but your major thing here is the freezer compartment can go above
freezing in this condition and thaw out the frozen product and the
refrigerator
will not come on in certain conditions. So You can loose some frozen goods by
running it there. Just don't depend on the freezer area for keeping the
frozen
product froze.

TURTLE




You all know about the bumble bee story.
It flies nevertheless, when the law of physics and aerodynamics say it
can't

Well, I live in Minnesota and 9 years ago I did move a GE Side by Side
refrigerator in the garage/workshop with the wife using it as overflow.
It has been working flawlessly (29years old GE) and we never noticed
anything un- thawed in the freezer!

Now I am sure that it will stop working , now that I know it is not
supposed to work in that cold place

YMMV

This is Turtle.

Just don't talk around it and say anything about it's suppose to screw up or it
will.

They don't really blow the guts out of them till you see the Below 20ºF and like
10ºF or so. This is the temp that they like to really screw up at. I see a bunch
running at 30ºf or so and work good.

TURTLE

In article ,
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


Since you understand thermodynamics, you can easily understand the problem.
Inside the fridge is a thermostat Once the temperature get below about 35 to
40 (depending on setting), it shuts the compressor off. It does not matter
what the freezer temperature is, the other portion is satisfied so no need
to add more cooling (actually, heat extraction).

You're saying that a fridge has but *one* thermostat, and (I gather)
which watches the temperature inside the main box, *not* in the freezer.

I suppose that if there were *two* thermostats, one for each part,
then it'd have to cool (heat-remove) by "zones", no?

Can that be correct? Because surely we'd all *like* the two sections
to cool them independently from each other -- so you can get the
freezer down to 0F, and the main box to be at maybe 40F.

Maybe it simply costs too much to make them like that?

(I guess by posing my question I'm going to end up learning
something about how refrigerators are made!)

Thanks for the wake-up call!




Thus, the freezer will
also attain the same temperature as the fridge portion since the ambient
provides all the heat removal needed.

The other situation is the oil in the compressor. It may thicken and cause
other problems when it does want to start.

Third problem is freezing. If the ambient goes steadily below freezing, the
refrigerator will freeze also. That may or may not be a problem for you.
Ed



Well, I'm beginning to understand *why* keeping a fridg in the garage,
at least in the North-East, might not be such a great idea.

Thanks!

David

In article ,
wrote:

SNIP

Third problem is freezing. If the ambient goes steadily below freezing, the
refrigerator will freeze also...

An EH38 "Easy Heat thermostatically controlled device" ($10.99 at Lowe's)
in series with a 100 W trouble light in a drawer can prevent freezing.

Hmmm -- sounds interesting. But a few questions:

(1) In a drawer? What drawer? Perhaps some drawer *inside* the
fridge, eg the "meat drawer"?

(2) If so, how much power would be used in heating?
If the thermostat clicked-on, wouldn't the 110-volts
go unimpeded to that 100-watt light-bulb -- in an enclosed
space, that can get awfully darn hot, melt plastic, even try
to start a fire (not much oxygen, though, unless it burns
through).

Or is the operative term here is "trouble light", which
might be something totally different from what I imagine?

Or perhaps this drawer is *outside* the fridge?

I'm catching on, but it's slow...

Thanks!

David

In article ,
TURTLE wrote:


This is Turtle.

I do this type of work and Ed nailed to the floor with his reply.

Now with what he said. you can still use it there and just take a odds that come
with it but your major thing here is the freezer compartment can go above
freezing in this condition and thaw out the frozen product and the refrigerator
will not come on in certain conditions. So You can loose some frozen goods by
running it there. Just don't depend on the freezer area for keeping the frozen
product froze.

TURTLE



OK -- so I can keep it in the garage as long as I don't
use or depend on the freezer-part.

I can live with that!

Now, how cold does it have to get for the oil-viscosity
to become a problem, eg by putting too much load on
the compressor-motor?

(I guess it would be a problem for the fridge-part
to get too cold, eg 30F or even 25F.

Hmmm. Could you add some comments on
the Lowe's thermostat+trouble-light idea?)

Thanks!

David

(I was right -- ask a question here, and you end
up learning a lot!)

In article ,
JerryMouse wrote:

Heat the garage.



Not so easy: three of the four walls are outside-walls,
plus the roof, and no insulation anywhere. A pretty
expensive proposition, providing heat to the whole place.

What we did last winter for a 1-week or so spell of very
cold weather, was to take a parabolic radiant electric-
heater, and point it the small area of wall-space that
had the water-pipe. That did help.


David

David Combs wrote

An EH38 "Easy Heat thermostatically controlled device" ($10.99 at Lowe's)
in series with a 100 W trouble light in a drawer can prevent freezing.

(1) In a drawer? What drawer? Perhaps some drawer *inside* the
fridge, eg the "meat drawer"?

I put it in a bottom drawer, since warm air rises.

(2) If so, how much power would be used in heating?

Depends on the ambient temp. Keeping a typical fridge 36 F in a 30 F barn
(the average Jan temp in Phila) might take about (36-30)72ft^2/R10 = 43 Btu/h,
ie an average of 13 watts. I unplug the fridge from November through March.

The Easy Heat turns on at 38 F and off at 50 (average 44), so I put
2 water bottles in the drawer to reduce cycling and some fiberglass
insulation over the lamp and thermostat and closed the drawer to make
the fridge closer to 36 F. It's hard to do this exactly with a varying
outdoor temp, but it seems to work nicely. No frozen carrots.

36
R | 1/7.2 R = (44-36)/43 = 0.186 ~ R0.2/1ft^2.
44---www---*---www---30
43--

If the thermostat clicked-on, wouldn't the 110-volts
go unimpeded to that 100-watt light-bulb...

Yes.

in an enclosed space, that can get awfully darn hot, melt plastic,
even try to start a fire...

The trouble light is rated for a 100 W bulb at "room temp." I use
a long-life bulb. The drawer is about 10" wide x 16" deep x 8" tall.

Or is the operative term here is "trouble light", which
might be something totally different from what I imagine?

The $5 trouble light is a lamp socket with a plastic lamp guard on the end
of an extension cord. The Easy Heat is a 1"x1"x2" little shoebox with a plug
on one side and a receptacle on the other.

Nick

My new Kenmore frige says, Do not keep in a room that is below 55f.

(David Combs) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

You're saying that a fridge has but *one* thermostat, and (I gather)
which watches the temperature inside the main box, *not* in the freezer.

I suppose that if there were *two* thermostats, one for each part,
then it'd have to cool (heat-remove) by "zones", no?

Can that be correct? Because surely we'd all *like* the two sections
to cool them independently from each other -- so you can get the
freezer down to 0F, and the main box to be at maybe 40F.

Maybe it simply costs too much to make them like that?

(I guess by posing my question I'm going to end up learning
something about how refrigerators are made!)

Shop around. Basic fridges on the North American market have one
thermostat, and one compressor, and are designed to assume that if the
fridge compartment is at X then the freezer must be Y degrees cooler.

(I had a fridge whose freezer was cold but whose main compartment was
warm; turns out there's a fan that diverts cold air from the freezer
into the fridge, and the power connector was loose. So in fact, the
compressor cools the freezer, a fixed fraction of the cold air is
diverted into the fridge, and that's where the thermostat is.)

Some of the higher-end models have separate thermostats and,
presumably, some mechanism for zoning their cooling; these are a bit
more money. This feature is a selling point so they don't make a
secret of it. Just look in the freezer to see if there's a dial there
too.

A few very high-end units actually have separate compressors, so the
freezer works independently of the fridge. The only units I've seen
were euro imports that one retailer had in a corner of the shop. They
were ludicrously expensive, like C$3000, and I presume they were there
just to soften the customer's price sensitivity (is there a name for
that in marketing? kinda the opposite of a loss-leader.) They were an
odd brand, none of the common euro appliance brands - the sales dude
said it was the name found on some construction cranes, but I'd never
heard of it.

I have no idea if either of these designs work any better in cold
rooms.

Chip C

"David Combs" wrote in message
...
In article ,
TURTLE wrote:


This is Turtle.

I do this type of work and Ed nailed to the floor with his reply.

Now with what he said. you can still use it there and just take a odds that
come
with it but your major thing here is the freezer compartment can go above
freezing in this condition and thaw out the frozen product and the
refrigerator
will not come on in certain conditions. So You can loose some frozen goods by
running it there. Just don't depend on the freezer area for keeping the
frozen
product froze.

TURTLE



OK -- so I can keep it in the garage as long as I don't
use or depend on the freezer-part.

I can live with that!

Now, how cold does it have to get for the oil-viscosity
to become a problem, eg by putting too much load on
the compressor-motor?

(I guess it would be a problem for the fridge-part
to get too cold, eg 30F or even 25F.

Hmmm. Could you add some comments on
the Lowe's thermostat+trouble-light idea?)

Thanks!

David

(I was right -- ask a question here, and you end
up learning a lot!)


This is Turtle.

The oil will thicken up too much at -20ºF to -30ºF , So ambiants of 0ºF or below
would become a problem. Now nothing says that it can't have a flood back at 39ºF
Ambiant and bust the valves in the conpressor. I think Murphy's law applies
here.

The Low's trouble light system , well I don't know anything about it for most
people or customers really don't like to screw up with freezers or refrigerators
running in freezing weather and I have no call for it. My customers and people
will just have to screw up on their on without my help.

I will say this just unplug it when it get's below +20ºF ambiant that it's
running in. When it gets back ''''' above '''' +20ºF plug it back in.

TURTLE

Thanks for the explanation!

However, for me, no HVAC-person,
I think I could use a bit more prose..l
In article ,
wrote:
David Combs wrote
...
(2) If so, how much power would be used in heating?

Depends on the ambient temp. Keeping a typical fridge 36 F in a 30 F barn
(the average Jan temp in Phila) might take about (36-30)72ft^2/R10 = 43 Btu/h,

Please explain that formula a bit -- clearly, the temperatures in it are in
fahrenheight;

What's the 72 square-feet, the area of the surface of the fridge?

What's the R10? And, why the "10"?

Does this formula have a lookupable name? --




ie an average of 13 watts. I unplug the fridge from November through March.

The Easy Heat turns on at 38 F and off at 50 (average 44), so I put
2 water bottles in the drawer to reduce cycling and some fiberglass
insulation over the lamp and thermostat and closed the drawer to make
the fridge closer to 36 F. It's hard to do this exactly with a varying
outdoor temp, but it seems to work nicely. No frozen carrots.

36
R | 1/7.2 R = (44-36)/43 = 0.186 ~ R0.2/1ft^2.
44---www---*---www---30
43--



Nice picture!

Me not being an HVAC-person, I not too sure just what
it depicts, though. I can see that the 44, 36, 43, and 30
are temperatures (in Fahrenheight),

, and I suppose the 1/7.2 is a resistance (ohms?)?,

and the "R = " formula is a percentage-growth (if multiplied
by 100.) of temperature, but the .186 approximately equal
to the R0 term -- I surely don't understand that -- something
per square foot, looks like...





If the thermostat clicked-on, wouldn't the 110-volts
go unimpeded to that 100-watt light-bulb...

Yes.

in an enclosed space, that can get awfully darn hot, melt plastic,
even try to start a fire...

The trouble light is rated for a 100 W bulb at "room temp." I use
a long-life bulb. The drawer is about 10" wide x 16" deep x 8" tall.

Or is the operative term here is "trouble light", which
might be something totally different from what I imagine?

The $5 trouble light is a lamp socket with a plastic lamp guard on the end
of an extension cord. The Easy Heat is a 1"x1"x2" little shoebox with a plug
on one side and a receptacle on the other.

I'm not totally worry-free yet -- that 100-watts is a LOT of heat for that
confined space (of one drawer) -- even *more* confined wrapped the way
you described.

Here, a stupidly-placed (by me) 100watt bulb, in the *open air* except
for a tiny piece touching a wood bookcase, *scorched* that spot
to, well, almost-charchoal.

Perhaps I need some more convincing -- although in your
experience it seems to have worked out quite well!

(Safely, too!)



Nick


Nick -- thank you *so very much* for taking the
time to send your answer (above), and hopefully
for answering,commenting-on *this* post.

Thanks!

David
'

In article ,
TURTLE wrote:

SNIP

This is Turtle.

The oil will thicken up too much at -20ºF to -30ºF , So ambiants of 0ºF or below
would become a problem. Now nothing says that it can't have a flood back at 39ºF
Ambiant and bust the valves in the conpressor. I think Murphy's law applies
here.

The Low's trouble light system , well I don't know anything about it for most
people or customers really don't like to screw up with freezers or refrigerators
running in freezing weather and I have no call for it. My customers and people
will just have to screw up on their on without my help.

I will say this just unplug it when it get's below +20ºF ambiant that it's
running in. When it gets back ''''' above '''' +20ºF plug it back in.

TURTLE



Looks like that's the solution.

Though, what about the (later in thread) comment by the
guy who just got a new fridge, the instructions for
which said to not use in a room less than 50F?

Thanks,

David

David Combs wrote:

...Keeping a typical fridge 36 F in a 30 F barn (the average Jan temp
in Phila) might take about (36-30)72ft^2/R10 = 43 Btu/h,

Please explain that formula a bit -- clearly, the temperatures in it are in
fahrenheight;

Sure.

What's the 72 square-feet, the area of the surface of the fridge?

Yes.

What's the R10? And, why the "10"?

I was thinking the insulation might be 2" of R5/inch Styrofoam.

Does this formula have a lookupable name? --

Ohm's law for heatflow, aka Newton's Law of Cooling.
Newton died in 1727. Sir Turtle seems still alive,
albeit misinformed.

The Easy Heat turns on at 38 F and off at 50 (average 44), so I put
2 water bottles in the drawer to reduce cycling and some fiberglass
insulation over the lamp and thermostat and closed the drawer to make
the fridge closer to 36 F. It's hard to do this exactly with a varying
outdoor temp, but it seems to work nicely. No frozen carrots.

36
R | 1/7.2 R = (44-36)/43 = 0.186 ~ R0.2/1ft^2.
44---www---*---www---30
43--

Nice picture!

Me not being an HVAC-person, I not too sure just what it depicts...

Pity. This would be a nice opportunity for HVAC-criminal help. Hello?

, and I suppose the 1/7.2 is a resistance (ohms?)?,

Yes, in thermal ohms.

and the "R = " formula is a percentage-growth (if multiplied
by 100.) of temperature...

No. Just think of this as a simple electrical circuit with different units.

Nick