I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Tom Watson wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

In an article by Mike Cox, the Michigan Attorney General, he sates the
following:

"A manufacturer does have a legal right to set a suggested retail price
(a manufacturer's suggested retail price or MSRP). The manufacturer also
has the right to unilaterally terminate a retailer who prices below the
MSRP. Frequently, when prices are identical for a product at every
store, it is because each retailer has decided to adhere to the MSRP. "

http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-...4650--,00.html

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Tom Watson wrote:
: I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
: from price fixing.

I think price fixing nly occurs when different suppliers of a
product collude to make sure no one undersells, i.e. all the
manufacturers of X decide to not compete with one another.

Any one manufacturer is allowed to set their price at whatever they
want, and I think in this case (see also Lie-Nielsen planes) they
require their distributors to match the MSRP. So, if you are a Festool
distributor and decide to sell for 10% less than Woodcraft,
Festool can drop you as a distributor.


This is all stuff I've gathered -- I'm neither a lwayer nor a
business person, so I may be wrong.


-- Andy Barss

Tom Watson wrote:
I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

It's only price fixing if there is an agreement between the manufacturer
and retailer, or between multiple retailers, or between multiple
manufacturers.

Apparently the fact that Festool can terminate doing business with the
retailer if they don't abide by minimum prices doesn't count as an
"agreement" to sell at the minimum price...not sure how that works.

For what it's worth, Toyota is basically the same around here. No give
on pricing at all.

Chris

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:30:22 GMT, Nova wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

In an article by Mike Cox, the Michigan Attorney General, he sates the
following:

"A manufacturer does have a legal right to set a suggested retail price
(a manufacturer's suggested retail price or MSRP). The manufacturer also
has the right to unilaterally terminate a retailer who prices below the
MSRP. Frequently, when prices are identical for a product at every
store, it is because each retailer has decided to adhere to the MSRP. "

http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-...4650--,00.html



Jack:

When I read the linked article I find the following:


"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal."


I don't see how this is not in conflict with what you've quoted,
particularly regarding coercion.

Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
product coercive?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal."

Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
product coercive?

Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not "legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to sell at a
given price other than wanting to do business with the supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any number of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under that license,
or not obtaining it at all.

Chris

Tom Watson wrote:

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:30:22 GMT, Nova wrote:


Tom Watson wrote:


I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

In an article by Mike Cox, the Michigan Attorney General, he sates the
following:

"A manufacturer does have a legal right to set a suggested retail price
(a manufacturer's suggested retail price or MSRP). The manufacturer also
has the right to unilaterally terminate a retailer who prices below the
MSRP. Frequently, when prices are identical for a product at every
store, it is because each retailer has decided to adhere to the MSRP. "

http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-...4650--,00.html




Jack:

When I read the linked article I find the following:


"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal."


I don't see how this is not in conflict with what you've quoted,
particularly regarding coercion.

Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
product coercive?



The manufacture has terminated the retailer's ability to purchase the
produce at a wholesale/dealer price.

The practice is often used to protect the small retailer and apparently
it is not illegal:

"It is frequently difficult in antitrust enforcement to determine when a
retail price is set based upon a manufacturer's unilateral pricing
policies and when the retail prices are set based upon an illegal
agreement. The basic rule of thumb is: if the manufacturer's decision to
set a suggested retail price and the retailers choice to adhere to that
price are independent decisions, then it is probably not considered
price fixing under the law. But if manufacturers and retailers agree
that a certain price will be charged, the agreement will be considered
illegal."

http://www.artrm.com/retail/msrp/

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Tom Watson" wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?

It depends.

If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
price since they never assumed ownership.

There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
sale rebates to the retailer.

My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.

They maintain a display, but no stock.

All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las
Vegas.

OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.

Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
market.

As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.

HTH

Lew

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?


Very open ended question. Cannot be answered on it's own merit.

--

-Mike-

Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is
illegal."

Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
product coercive?

Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to sell at a
given price other than wanting to do business with the supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under that
license, or not obtaining it at all.

If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman, Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing". But each
manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools that they
manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain that price as
long as they don't collude with the other manufacturers.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?


Nope! A company can dictate a price but several cannot get together and
predetermine a fixed price to. If all were able to fix their prices there
would be no choice. You have the choice to buy Festool brand or another
brand.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...

When I read the linked article I find the following:


"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal."


I don't see how this is not in conflict with what you've quoted,
particularly regarding coercion.

Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
product coercive?

You have to look at all angles. It is illegal to fix the price but is legal
to suggest a price. Festool suggests that no one drop the price below their
suggested price. If a retailer drops his price below that price, the
manufacturer could raise the retailers cost of the product, eliminate
discounts on stock orders, or any number of different things Unless you
read the actual contract you really don't know what the circumstances are.
Sales people rarely really know what the agreement is. I'd suggest that no
retailer wants to drop his price because that would lower his gross profit.
The retailer could also charge more than suggested and include some other
benefits and that would not be a problem. If the retailer can sell above
the suggested price then the price is not fixed.
GM has been doing this for years with the Saturn.

Personally I like to shop for a bargain but I also feel good about knowing
that I could not have done better after buying from my favorite dealer.

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...
Tom Watson wrote:
I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

It's only price fixing if there is an agreement between the manufacturer
and retailer, or between multiple retailers, or between multiple
manufacturers.

Apparently the fact that Festool can terminate doing business with the
retailer if they don't abide by minimum prices doesn't count as an
"agreement" to sell at the minimum price...not sure how that works.

For what it's worth, Toyota is basically the same around here. No give on
pricing at all.


Fortunately Toyota gives quite a bit in the Houston area.

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:50:59 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1


The combination of a MAP pricing agreement (the dealer gets something
for following the MAP so he agrees follow it) and the marigin that the
dealer can make at the MAP price may be enough to make all pricing the
same.

Frank

On Jun 4, 2:46*pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:50:59 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?

Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

The combination of a *MAP pricing agreement (the dealer gets something
for following the MAP so he agrees follow it) and the marigin that the
dealer can make at the MAP price may be enough to make all pricing the
same.

Frank

I think it is simpler than all that. If the dealer knows he can get
full-pop, why shouldn't he?
If some low-overhead schmuck flogs that same tool on the net, what
incentive is there to the dealer to even display/demo the tool?

But, having said that, the way around all that is the creation of an
'agent'. Not a stocking dealer. A consignment structure where Festool
owns the inventory until it is sold. A few complaints from the
competition, and the supply slows down.

When price fixing runs afoul of the law in these parts, is when it is
done to hurt the competition.
MSRP in the Festool realm, is also the price the DEALER/AGENT knows he
can get. So why discount?

To set the record straight, Dealers now own there stock, and the warehouse
is in Lebanon, In, also repair is done there.
At least that is the case for Woodcraft.

KK



"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Jun 4, 2:46 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:50:59 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?

Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

The combination of a MAP pricing agreement (the dealer gets something
for following the MAP so he agrees follow it) and the marigin that the
dealer can make at the MAP price may be enough to make all pricing the
same.

Frank

I think it is simpler than all that. If the dealer knows he can get
full-pop, why shouldn't he?
If some low-overhead schmuck flogs that same tool on the net, what
incentive is there to the dealer to even display/demo the tool?

But, having said that, the way around all that is the creation of an
'agent'. Not a stocking dealer. A consignment structure where Festool
owns the inventory until it is sold. A few complaints from the
competition, and the supply slows down.

When price fixing runs afoul of the law in these parts, is when it is
done to hurt the competition.
MSRP in the Festool realm, is also the price the DEALER/AGENT knows he
can get. So why discount?

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:27:24 -0400, "Ken" wrote:







"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Jun 4, 2:46 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:50:59 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?

Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

The combination of a MAP pricing agreement (the dealer gets something
for following the MAP so he agrees follow it) and the marigin that the
dealer can make at the MAP price may be enough to make all pricing the
same.

Frank

I think it is simpler than all that. If the dealer knows he can get
full-pop, why shouldn't he?
If some low-overhead schmuck flogs that same tool on the net, what
incentive is there to the dealer to even display/demo the tool?

But, having said that, the way around all that is the creation of an
'agent'. Not a stocking dealer. A consignment structure where Festool
owns the inventory until it is sold. A few complaints from the
competition, and the supply slows down.

When price fixing runs afoul of the law in these parts, is when it is
done to hurt the competition.
MSRP in the Festool realm, is also the price the DEALER/AGENT knows he
can get. So why discount?



To set the record straight, Dealers now own there stock, and the warehouse
is in Lebanon, In, also repair is done there.
At least that is the case for Woodcraft.

KK

moved the top post to the bottom for continuity

Dealers owning the stock is the norm. Dealers either buy at wholesale
from the manufacturer and are free to sell at any price they want or
they enter into a MAP agreement with the manufacturer and cannot sell,
by contract, lower than the agreed minimum price. They can sell
higher, just not lower. The manufacturer gives them something,
usually some form of cooperative advertising or other support, for the
agreement. I have to believe it does not violate existing antitrust,
it is a common arrangement.

Frank

For what it's worth, Toyota is basically the same around here. No give
on pricing at all.


Fortunately Toyota gives quite a bit in the Houston area.
SHMBO just bought a Toyota on Monday, First price, 22K. Check was 20.1K,
almost 10 %

"Rick Samuel" wrote in message
...

For what it's worth, Toyota is basically the same around here. No give
on pricing at all.


Fortunately Toyota gives quite a bit in the Houston area.
SHMBO just bought a Toyota on Monday, First price, 22K. Check was 20.1K,
almost 10 %


I bought a Tundra on July 16 last year, Sticker was around 33k+about 1.4k
for ttl. I drove out for 28k less trade in.
I imagine I could get a better deal today on the same vehicle but probably
not on a car.

J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is
illegal."
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to sell at a
given price other than wanting to do business with the supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under that
license, or not obtaining it at all.

If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman, Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing". But each
manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools that they
manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain that price as
long as they don't collude with the other manufacturers.

Something like the sale of gas?

Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is
illegal."
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell
the
product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to sell at
a
given price other than wanting to do business with the supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any
number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under that
license, or not obtaining it at all.

If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman, Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all
sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing". But
each manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools that
they manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain that
price as long as they don't collude with the other manufacturers.

Something like the sale of gas?

Standard Oil was one of the first targets of the Sherman Antitrust Act
you know.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

When I worked in retail, we had companies that stated the MSRP and told us
under no uncertain terms that THAT was what the items would sell for or we
would lose our distributorship.
There are a LOT of companies that do that, more than most people realize.

Kate


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:30:22 GMT, Nova wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

In an article by Mike Cox, the Michigan Attorney General, he sates the
following:

"A manufacturer does have a legal right to set a suggested retail price
(a manufacturer's suggested retail price or MSRP). The manufacturer also
has the right to unilaterally terminate a retailer who prices below the
MSRP. Frequently, when prices are identical for a product at every
store, it is because each retailer has decided to adhere to the MSRP. "

http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-...4650--,00.html



Jack:

When I read the linked article I find the following:


"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal."


I don't see how this is not in conflict with what you've quoted,
particularly regarding coercion.

Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
product coercive?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

At least in Australia Festo and their local agents HAVE been
successfully prosecuted for price fixing, and fined several hundred
thousand dollars. Unfortunately this conviction & fine seems to have
had no effect on Festo retail pricing.

In the US Festo prices are relatively much lower than in Australia or
even in Germany - a replacement battery that sells for $75US cost
around $250US in Australia, and according to a number of US suppliers
Festo have now advised their US retailers that anyone selling &
shipping ANY Festo products outside the US will be 'terminated'.

regards
Bruce

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:50:59 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
from price fixing.

Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?



Regards,

Tom

Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is
illegal."
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell
the
product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to sell at
a
given price other than wanting to do business with the supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any
number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under that
license, or not obtaining it at all.
If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman, Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all
sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing". But
each manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools that
they manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain that
price as long as they don't collude with the other manufacturers.

Something like the sale of gas?

Standard Oil was one of the first targets of the Sherman Antitrust Act
you know.

Gas just went up ten cents a liter or about 41 cents an imperial gallon.
We,re now paying &1.41 a liter.

Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is
illegal."
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell
the
product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to sell
at
a
given price other than wanting to do business with the supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any
number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under that
license, or not obtaining it at all.
If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman, Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers
of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all
sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing". But
each manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools
that
they manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain that
price as long as they don't collude with the other manufacturers.

Something like the sale of gas?

Standard Oil was one of the first targets of the Sherman Antitrust
Act you know.

Gas just went up ten cents a liter or about 41 cents an imperial
gallon. We,re now paying &1.41 a liter.

Not in the US you aren't. We don't use "imperial gallons" nor do we
charge by the "liter". And the Sherman Antitrust Act has absolutely
no force whatsoever outside the US. Of course if you really want it
to you could try orchstrating a terrrorist attack against us . . .

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is
illegal."
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell
the
product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to sell
at
a
given price other than wanting to do business with the supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any
number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under that
license, or not obtaining it at all.
If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman, Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers
of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all
sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing". But
each manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools
that
they manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain that
price as long as they don't collude with the other manufacturers.

Something like the sale of gas?
Standard Oil was one of the first targets of the Sherman Antitrust
Act you know.

Gas just went up ten cents a liter or about 41 cents an imperial
gallon. We,re now paying &1.41 a liter.

Not in the US you aren't. We don't use "imperial gallons" nor do we
charge by the "liter". And the Sherman Antitrust Act has absolutely
no force whatsoever outside the US. Of course if you really want it
to you could try orchstrating a terrrorist attack against us . . .

Why would we do that. We'll just let you do it to yourselves.

Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is
illegal."
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to
sell
the
product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to
sell
at
a
given price other than wanting to do business with the
supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any
number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of
them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under
that
license, or not obtaining it at all.
If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman,
Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers
of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all
sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing".
But
each manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools
that
they manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain
that
price as long as they don't collude with the other
manufacturers.

Something like the sale of gas?
Standard Oil was one of the first targets of the Sherman
Antitrust
Act you know.

Gas just went up ten cents a liter or about 41 cents an imperial
gallon. We,re now paying &1.41 a liter.

Not in the US you aren't. We don't use "imperial gallons" nor do
we
charge by the "liter". And the Sherman Antitrust Act has
absolutely
no force whatsoever outside the US. Of course if you really want
it
to you could try orchstrating a terrrorist attack against us . . .

Why would we do that. We'll just let you do it to yourselves.

Do what, apply the Sherman Antitrust Act to your benighted region?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is
illegal."
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to
sell
the
product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to
sell
at
a
given price other than wanting to do business with the
supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any
number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of
them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under
that
license, or not obtaining it at all.
If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman,
Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers
of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all
sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing".
But
each manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools
that
they manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain
that
price as long as they don't collude with the other
manufacturers.

Something like the sale of gas?
Standard Oil was one of the first targets of the Sherman
Antitrust
Act you know.

Gas just went up ten cents a liter or about 41 cents an imperial
gallon. We,re now paying &1.41 a liter.
Not in the US you aren't. We don't use "imperial gallons" nor do
we
charge by the "liter". And the Sherman Antitrust Act has
absolutely
no force whatsoever outside the US. Of course if you really want
it
to you could try orchstrating a terrrorist attack against us . . .

Why would we do that. We'll just let you do it to yourselves.

Do what, apply the Sherman Antitrust Act to your benighted region?

No, follow the terrorist route against yourself. You seem to do an
adequate job.

Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:

"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it
cannot
coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between
the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement
is
illegal."
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to
sell
the
product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not
"legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to
sell
at
a
given price other than wanting to do business with the
supplier.

A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any
number
of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of
them.

In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a
specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under
that
license, or not obtaining it at all.
If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman,
Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other
manufacturers
of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would
all
sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing".
But
each manufacturer has every right to set a price for the
tools
that
they manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain
that
price as long as they don't collude with the other
manufacturers.

Something like the sale of gas?
Standard Oil was one of the first targets of the Sherman
Antitrust
Act you know.

Gas just went up ten cents a liter or about 41 cents an imperial
gallon. We,re now paying &1.41 a liter.
Not in the US you aren't. We don't use "imperial gallons" nor do
we
charge by the "liter". And the Sherman Antitrust Act has
absolutely
no force whatsoever outside the US. Of course if you really want
it
to you could try orchstrating a terrrorist attack against us . .
.

Why would we do that. We'll just let you do it to yourselves.

Do what, apply the Sherman Antitrust Act to your benighted region?

No, follow the terrorist route against yourself. You seem to do an
adequate job.

Oh, I see, you can't follow a conversation and have no sense of humor.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

replying to Lew Hodgett, HarveyWildes wrote:
lewhodgett wrote:

It depends.
If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
price since they never assumed ownership.
There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
sale rebates to the retailer.
My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.
They maintain a display, but no stock.
All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las
Vegas.
OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.
Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
market.
As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.
HTH
Lew


As far as I can tell, this is the best answer. My (U.S.) company is not
allowed to tell resellers what to charge for our products. Once we sell
product, it is no longer ours, and the new owner can sell it for whatever
they want. Any attempt to tell the new owner what to sell the product for
is considered to be anti-competitive. The argument that Festool sells
dealer expertise in the price, and uses that as a reason for price fixing
the basic tool price is also anticompetitive, since not all buyers will
want that service. You can certainly include service in the price of the
tool, but you can't use that as an excuse for price fixing. The only way
that I can figure out that what Festool is doing is legal is if, as this
poster suggests, Festool somehow is maintaining ownership of the tool
until it is delivered to the ultimate customer, perhaps with sales
incentives or rebates involved. That said, if that is not true, then
small dealers without a legal department often cannot prove/resist illegal
pressure from suppliers, and in many cases it may not be in their best
interest to do so - I'd imagine that dealers do fairly well with Festool
sales. If it were in anyone's best interest to pursue the issue, it would
be a large seller like Amazon, but their Prime memberships already provide
a competitive free shipping, tax-free price, so they may not care either.

Price fixing regulations are designed to protect consumers. Consumers are
the ones being harmed by price fixing, and consumers do not have
visibility to the negotiations being held between Festool and their
dealers, so it is very difficult for a consumer to assert anti-competitive
practices. That's why government regulators get involved. Clearly
regulators in the U.K and Australia think that Festool is misbehaving, so
I would not be surprised to see action in the U.S. at some point. In the
long run, it could end up either jacking up Festool prices or reducing the
quality, but when Dominos are already selling well for $875 because they
are the only tool on the market that does what they do well (I'm not
counting biscuit joiners as real competition), there is clearly a business
opportunity for other tool companies if they can figure out how to provide
a competitive tool that doesn't infringe Festool's patents. If another
tool manufacturer sold a tool that performed as well as a Domino at half
the cost, with fair quality but perhaps not with the same service or
expected life, I'd buy the less expensive tool.

--

In article .com,
says...

replying to Lew Hodgett, HarveyWildes wrote:
lewhodgett wrote:

It depends.
If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
price since they never assumed ownership.
There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
sale rebates to the retailer.
My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.
They maintain a display, but no stock.
All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las
Vegas.
OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.
Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
market.
As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.
HTH
Lew


As far as I can tell, this is the best answer. My (U.S.) company is not
allowed to tell resellers what to charge for our products.

Perhaps you are. The notion that this was forbidden was the result of
Albrecht v Herald Co, which was overturned by State Oil v Khan.

Once we sell
product, it is no longer ours, and the new owner can sell it for whatever
they want. Any attempt to tell the new owner what to sell the product for
is considered to be anti-competitive. The argument that Festool sells
dealer expertise in the price, and uses that as a reason for price fixing
the basic tool price is also anticompetitive, since not all buyers will
want that service. You can certainly include service in the price of the
tool, but you can't use that as an excuse for price fixing. The only way
that I can figure out that what Festool is doing is legal is if, as this
poster suggests, Festool somehow is maintaining ownership of the tool
until it is delivered to the ultimate customer, perhaps with sales
incentives or rebates involved. That said, if that is not true, then
small dealers without a legal department often cannot prove/resist illegal
pressure from suppliers, and in many cases it may not be in their best
interest to do so - I'd imagine that dealers do fairly well with Festool
sales. If it were in anyone's best interest to pursue the issue, it would
be a large seller like Amazon, but their Prime memberships already provide
a competitive free shipping, tax-free price, so they may not care either.

Price fixing regulations are designed to protect consumers. Consumers are
the ones being harmed by price fixing, and consumers do not have
visibility to the negotiations being held between Festool and their
dealers, so it is very difficult for a consumer to assert anti-competitive
practices. That's why government regulators get involved. Clearly
regulators in the U.K and Australia think that Festool is misbehaving, so
I would not be surprised to see action in the U.S. at some point. In the
long run, it could end up either jacking up Festool prices or reducing the
quality, but when Dominos are already selling well for $875 because they
are the only tool on the market that does what they do well (I'm not
counting biscuit joiners as real competition), there is clearly a business
opportunity for other tool companies if they can figure out how to provide
a competitive tool that doesn't infringe Festool's patents. If another
tool manufacturer sold a tool that performed as well as a Domino at half
the cost, with fair quality but perhaps not with the same service or
expected life, I'd buy the less expensive tool.

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 17:43:30 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article .com,
om says...

replying to Lew Hodgett, HarveyWildes wrote:
lewhodgett wrote:

It depends.
If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
price since they never assumed ownership.
There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
sale rebates to the retailer.
My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.
They maintain a display, but no stock.
All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las
Vegas.
OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.
Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
market.
As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.
HTH
Lew


As far as I can tell, this is the best answer. My (U.S.) company is not
allowed to tell resellers what to charge for our products.

Perhaps you are. The notion that this was forbidden was the result of
Albrecht v Herald Co, which was overturned by State Oil v Khan.

Once we sell
product, it is no longer ours, and the new owner can sell it for whatever
they want. Any attempt to tell the new owner what to sell the product for
is considered to be anti-competitive. The argument that Festool sells
dealer expertise in the price, and uses that as a reason for price fixing
the basic tool price is also anticompetitive, since not all buyers will
want that service. You can certainly include service in the price of the
tool, but you can't use that as an excuse for price fixing. The only way
that I can figure out that what Festool is doing is legal is if, as this
poster suggests, Festool somehow is maintaining ownership of the tool
until it is delivered to the ultimate customer, perhaps with sales
incentives or rebates involved. That said, if that is not true, then
small dealers without a legal department often cannot prove/resist illegal
pressure from suppliers, and in many cases it may not be in their best
interest to do so - I'd imagine that dealers do fairly well with Festool
sales. If it were in anyone's best interest to pursue the issue, it would
be a large seller like Amazon, but their Prime memberships already provide
a competitive free shipping, tax-free price, so they may not care either.

Price fixing regulations are designed to protect consumers. Consumers are
the ones being harmed by price fixing, and consumers do not have
visibility to the negotiations being held between Festool and their
dealers, so it is very difficult for a consumer to assert anti-competitive
practices. That's why government regulators get involved. Clearly
regulators in the U.K and Australia think that Festool is misbehaving, so
I would not be surprised to see action in the U.S. at some point. In the
long run, it could end up either jacking up Festool prices or reducing the
quality, but when Dominos are already selling well for $875 because they
are the only tool on the market that does what they do well (I'm not
counting biscuit joiners as real competition), there is clearly a business
opportunity for other tool companies if they can figure out how to provide
a competitive tool that doesn't infringe Festool's patents. If another
tool manufacturer sold a tool that performed as well as a Domino at half
the cost, with fair quality but perhaps not with the same service or
expected life, I'd buy the less expensive tool.


In the Uk they control the price through dealer rebates and stock
control

If the dealer sells below a set price they lose either some of the
discount/ rebate or stock becomes unavailable

It depends.
If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
price since they never assumed ownership.
There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
sale rebates to the retailer.



As far as I can tell, this is the best answer. My (U.S.) company is not
allowed to tell resellers what to charge for our products.

Perhaps you are. The notion that this was forbidden was the result of
Albrecht v Herald Co, which was overturned by State Oil v Khan.

Once we sell
product, it is no longer ours, and the new owner can sell it for whatever
they want. Any attempt to tell the new owner what to sell the product for
is considered to be anti-competitive. The argument that Festool sells
dealer expertise in the price, and uses that as a reason for price fixing
the basic tool price is also anticompetitive, since not all buyers will
want that service. You can certainly include service in the price of the
tool, but you can't use that as an excuse for price fixing. .

Price fixing regulations are designed to protect consumers. Consumers are
the ones being harmed by price fixing, and consumers do not have
visibility to the negotiations being held between Festool and their
dealers, so it is very difficult for a consumer to assert anti-competitive
practices. That's why government regulators get involved. Clearly
regulators in the U.K and Australia think that Festool is misbehaving, so
I would not be surprised to see action in the U.S. at some point.

Good explanation here
http://www.lanepowell.com/wp-content...ovichm_007.pdf

Rule of reason.
Looks like you can dictate the price it it is higher than the competition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_reason
The rule of reason is a legal doctrine used to interpret the Sherman
Antitrust Act, one of the cornerstones of United States antitrust law.
While some actions like price-fixing are considered illegal per se,
other actions, such as possession of a monopoly, must be analyzed under
the rule of reason and are only considered illegal when their effect is
to unreasonably restrain trade. William Howard Taft, then Chief Judge of
the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, first developed the doctrine in a
ruling on Addyston Pipe and Steel Co. v. United States, which was
affirmed in 1899 by the Supreme Court. The doctrine also played a major
role in the 1911 Supreme Court case Standard Oil Company of New Jersey
v. United States.

On 7/24/2015 1:44 PM, HarveyWildes wrote:
replying to Lew Hodgett, HarveyWildes wrote:
lewhodgett wrote:

It depends.
If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
price since they never assumed ownership.
There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
sale rebates to the retailer.
My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.
They maintain a display, but no stock.
All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las Vegas.
OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.
Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
market.
As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.
HTH
Lew


As far as I can tell, this is the best answer. My (U.S.) company is not
allowed to tell resellers what to charge for our products. Once we sell
product, it is no longer ours, and the new owner can sell it for whatever
they want. Any attempt to tell the new owner what to sell the product for
is considered to be anti-competitive. The argument that Festool sells
dealer expertise in the price, and uses that as a reason for price fixing
the basic tool price is also anticompetitive, since not all buyers will
want that service. You can certainly include service in the price of the
tool, but you can't use that as an excuse for price fixing. The only way
that I can figure out that what Festool is doing is legal is if, as this
poster suggests, Festool somehow is maintaining ownership of the tool
until it is delivered to the ultimate customer, perhaps with sales
incentives or rebates involved. That said, if that is not true, then
small dealers without a legal department often cannot prove/resist illegal
pressure from suppliers, and in many cases it may not be in their best
interest to do so - I'd imagine that dealers do fairly well with Festool
sales. If it were in anyone's best interest to pursue the issue, it would
be a large seller like Amazon, but their Prime memberships already provide
a competitive free shipping, tax-free price, so they may not care either.

Price fixing regulations are designed to protect consumers. Consumers are
the ones being harmed by price fixing, and consumers do not have
visibility to the negotiations being held between Festool and their
dealers, so it is very difficult for a consumer to assert anti-competitive
practices. That's why government regulators get involved. Clearly
regulators in the U.K and Australia think that Festool is misbehaving, so
I would not be surprised to see action in the U.S. at some point. In the
long run, it could end up either jacking up Festool prices or reducing the
quality, but when Dominos are already selling well for $875 because they
are the only tool on the market that does what they do well (I'm not
counting biscuit joiners as real competition), there is clearly a business
opportunity for other tool companies if they can figure out how to provide
a competitive tool that doesn't infringe Festool's patents. If another
tool manufacturer sold a tool that performed as well as a Domino at half
the cost, with fair quality but perhaps not with the same service or
expected life, I'd buy the less expensive tool.


Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.

Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.

Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.

replying to Ed Pawlowski , HarveyWildes wrote:
esp wrote:

Good explanation here
http://www.lanepowell.com/wp-content...ovichm_007.pdf
Rule of reason.
Looks like you can dictate the price it it is higher than the competition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_reason
The rule of reason is a legal doctrine used to interpret the Sherman
Antitrust Act, one of the cornerstones of United States antitrust law.
While some actions like price-fixing are considered illegal per se,
other actions, such as possession of a monopoly, must be analyzed under
the rule of reason and are only considered illegal when their effect is
to unreasonably restrain trade. William Howard Taft, then Chief Judge of
the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, first developed the doctrine in a
ruling on Addyston Pipe and Steel Co. v. United States, which was
affirmed in 1899 by the Supreme Court. The doctrine also played a major
role in the 1911 Supreme Court case Standard Oil Company of New Jersey
v. United States.


Thanks for the Petranovich URL - Looks like our lawyers are being more
cautious than needed - I'll have to follow up on this at work .

--

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

--

HarveyWildes wrote:
replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

--

Well, I had 2 plate joiners/ biscuit cutters, both PC brand. In about 17
years I cut about 2500 slots. I find that the Domino is so superior that I
use it more and more. It really adds strength to joints and better aids
alignment. I use it a heck of a lot more than I expected when I bought it.
It elegantly solves problems.

In article s.com,
says...

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.

You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.

"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article s.com,
says...

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.

You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.

I wonder however how many mortises you could cut in a single size with a
single bit. For certain my single 5mm bit has cut 8,000 + perfect
mortises. When I bought my Domino I knew I would use it but was clueless
that I would use it as much as I have. Even as a person that sells 80
percent of my work I do this for fun and certainly my volume does not come
near a living, and the time savings has paid for the tool countless times.

My work has increased in quality because I have the Domino. The Domino
lets you focus more on designing and building the desired piece vs. doing
the same and with complicated jigs.
A lot of the type of work that I do with the Domino was not even on the
radar when I bought the tool. What I normally would have used a plunge
router for with or with our jigs I do with the Domino.
Basically what I am saying here is that I value my free time and that the
Domino solves more problems than I ever could have imagined without the
needs to design and build jigs. I use it in more ways than I imagined when
considering the purchase.
I think that some of the jigs needed for a plunge router to do the same
cuts that I make with the Domino one might need to be more skilled to
design and build those jigs than need be to simply make the complicated
cuts with a a Domino.

In article 729365498459608725.798858lcb11211-
, says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article s.com,
says...

replying to Leon , HarveyWildes wrote:
lcb11211 wrote:

Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.


With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.

What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.

You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.

I wonder however how many mortises you could cut in a single size with a
single bit.

If you're using the same bit that Festool uses you should get the same
number unless you manage to break the bit. Nothing magic about a router
bit.

For certain my single 5mm bit has cut 8,000 + perfect
mortises. When I bought my Domino I knew I would use it but was clueless
that I would use it as much as I have. Even as a person that sells 80
percent of my work I do this for fun and certainly my volume does not come
near a living, and the time savings has paid for the tool countless times.

Yep, like I said, if you're doing it commercially in volume and getting
paid for it, it justifies itself on time saved.

My work has increased in quality because I have the Domino. The Domino
lets you focus more on designing and building the desired piece vs. doing
the same and with complicated jigs.
A lot of the type of work that I do with the Domino was not even on the
radar when I bought the tool. What I normally would have used a plunge
router for with or with our jigs I do with the Domino.
Basically what I am saying here is that I value my free time and that the
Domino solves more problems than I ever could have imagined without the
needs to design and build jigs. I use it in more ways than I imagined when
considering the purchase.
I think that some of the jigs needed for a plunge router to do the same
cuts that I make with the Domino one might need to be more skilled to
design and build those jigs than need be to simply make the complicated
cuts with a a Domino.

No question once you've got such a tool you find uses for it. But the
request was for something with less durability and more limited
capability and I was merely pointing out that jigs and a plunge router
provide that option.