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#1
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Window Glazing
DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from
waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. Glazing stuck to everything but the rabbet to which I'm trying to apply it, little wads of it smushed flat in the middle of the glass, fingerprints mashed into the corners, six different putty knives all over the floor....the list goes on. Incompetence rules the day. WTF? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH!!!! Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. JP ************************* Just plain frustrated. |
#2
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Window Glazing
"Jay Pique" wrote in message news | | Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. I hear you. I learned glazing the hard way about a year ago trying to bring a property I own up to code. Do you have a glazing knife? If you're trying to do it with a standard putty knife, you may find your knife is too flexible. The proper knife really does help, especially on corners. Make sure your rabbets are absolutely spotlessly clean. Rough them up to give "tooth". Warm the putty by rolling it in your hands until it's about the consistency of bread dough. Keep mineral spirits and soap and water handy for when your hands get all gooky, but don't get any on the glass, frames, or in the putty itself. Plan on breaking a pane or two while learning. At the end of my exercise I wasn't a glazing expert either, but I did acquire enough skill to press a line of putty from corner to corner without having it peel away from the glass or the rabbet, or look like it was done by a monkey. Yes, there's a reason we don't do a lot of house windows that way anymore. --Jay (a different one) |
#3
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Window Glazing
Jay,
Been there, done that...... Calm down, grab a cup of Joe and relax, we'll get you thru this even if it kills you.... Be sure the glass and sash are clean (use mineral spirits). I'm assuming you're using an oil based putty. Temperature of putty needs to be above 50F, as the cold will make the glazing miserable to work with and resist touching it with your fingers once it has been applied to the window. Make a 6" long (approximately - we're not doing rocket science here) snake by rolling it between your hands and make it a little larger in diameter than needed (experience will tell you how big to make it - not critical). Place the snake on the glass at the sash (or muntin if you have divided windows). Clean your hands. Now, when forming it, dip your putty knife in some mineral sprits and form the "wedge" by holding the knife at ~45deg to the glass and go from the glass to the sash in one downward swipe forcing the glazing into the groove between the glass and wood and forming the wedge which will be the width of the putty knife you're using (~ 1.5" to 2"). Leave it - it isn't perfect yet but leave it alone and do the next swipe. You swipe from top to bottom doing the width of your putty knife - not from side to side. Go all around the window (make more putty snakes as you go) to get the glazing down so it looks like a wedge and no longer like a snake. At this point, its a pretty ugly looking glazing job. Now, (hard to explain but easy to do) go to the corner, tilt knife slightly to the side but flat to the glass at a 45deg angle to make the corner, press down slightly and pull knife slightly to the side away from the corner a couple of inches. Do the other side of the corner - again, it won't be perfect but you will fix that in the last step. Now, dip the knife in mineral spirits again and use it as a spatula to smooth some of the ripples out of the glazing around the window - again top-to-bottom, not side to side (you're not a pro yet - next window maybe). Go around the window, keeping the mineral spirits on the putty (it will evaporate off) so it doesn't stick and pull with the knife and smooth the little ripples down. Now you have somewhat of a decent looking glazing job but there's still some vertical ripples to smooth out. Wet the knife (mineral spirits) and carefully place it near one corner at a slight angle with the corner tip of the blade at the top line of the glazing and the body of the knife on the sash. Now, with a little pressure applied to keep the knife on the glass and wood, use your other hand to help guide the knife along the edge as you pull the knife towards the other corner. Stop short a few inches from the far corner (to avoid ruining the corner by pushing more putty into it). If there's an excess of putty (yeah there is, you still ain't a pro yet), knife it off (top to bottom). Now do the same thing that you just did but start from that corner and go back the other way. Keep the mineral spirits on the putty. Repeat as necessary and when you have this down to one swipe across in each direction - get your card punched, you're ready! You'll soon learn how much putty is needed and will avoid having to knife a lot off in the final steps. The trick is to keep the putty warm, slightly moist with mineral spirits and keep the knife moving at a constant rate and pressure once you're doing the final pass (side to side). Any putty on the glass can be scrapped off with a razor blade later or cleaned off with mineral spirits after the putty has set up. Get into the mood for doing this, its not difficult once you get a rhythm going and keep moving. Its been a few years but I've done "several" house full of windows over the years. Certainly not a pro but those tips worked for me. Now the pro's will jump in and tell you some better ways (like outsourcing the job....) Bob S. "Jay Pique" wrote in message news DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. Glazing stuck to everything but the rabbet to which I'm trying to apply it, little wads of it smushed flat in the middle of the glass, fingerprints mashed into the corners, six different putty knives all over the floor....the list goes on. Incompetence rules the day. WTF? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH!!!! Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. JP ************************* Just plain frustrated. |
#4
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Window Glazing
In addition to Bob's excellent advice, I'd like to add this:
DAP 33 is the worst glazing compound on the planet. It's too daggone soft and gooey, and it won't stick to wood or glass no matter what you do. About the only thing that it *will* stick to is a putty knife. Throw the "33" in the garbage where it belongs, find an Ace Hardware store, and get yourself a tub of their house brand. It makes a world of difference. If you don't have an Ace handy, look for the Red Devil brand. It's nearly as good. If you can't find that either... try the "house brand" from just about any real hardware store (e.g. Ace or Tru-Value, not Lowe's, Home Depot, etc). I've had pretty good luck with some of those, too. The main thing you're looking for is a compound that's quite stiff in the tub, but softens slightly as you work it back and forth in your fingers. In article , "Bob S." wrote: Jay, Been there, done that...... Calm down, grab a cup of Joe and relax, we'll get you thru this even if it kills you.... Be sure the glass and sash are clean (use mineral spirits). I'm assuming you're using an oil based putty. Temperature of putty needs to be above 50F, as the cold will make the glazing miserable to work with and resist touching it with your fingers once it has been applied to the window. Make a 6" long (approximately - we're not doing rocket science here) snake by rolling it between your hands and make it a little larger in diameter than needed (experience will tell you how big to make it - not critical). Place the snake on the glass at the sash (or muntin if you have divided windows). Clean your hands. Now, when forming it, dip your putty knife in some mineral sprits and form the "wedge" by holding the knife at ~45deg to the glass and go from the glass to the sash in one downward swipe forcing the glazing into the groove between the glass and wood and forming the wedge which will be the width of the putty knife you're using (~ 1.5" to 2"). Leave it - it isn't perfect yet but leave it alone and do the next swipe. You swipe from top to bottom doing the width of your putty knife - not from side to side. Go all around the window (make more putty snakes as you go) to get the glazing down so it looks like a wedge and no longer like a snake. At this point, its a pretty ugly looking glazing job. Now, (hard to explain but easy to do) go to the corner, tilt knife slightly to the side but flat to the glass at a 45deg angle to make the corner, press down slightly and pull knife slightly to the side away from the corner a couple of inches. Do the other side of the corner - again, it won't be perfect but you will fix that in the last step. Now, dip the knife in mineral spirits again and use it as a spatula to smooth some of the ripples out of the glazing around the window - again top-to-bottom, not side to side (you're not a pro yet - next window maybe). Go around the window, keeping the mineral spirits on the putty (it will evaporate off) so it doesn't stick and pull with the knife and smooth the little ripples down. Now you have somewhat of a decent looking glazing job but there's still some vertical ripples to smooth out. Wet the knife (mineral spirits) and carefully place it near one corner at a slight angle with the corner tip of the blade at the top line of the glazing and the body of the knife on the sash. Now, with a little pressure applied to keep the knife on the glass and wood, use your other hand to help guide the knife along the edge as you pull the knife towards the other corner. Stop short a few inches from the far corner (to avoid ruining the corner by pushing more putty into it). If there's an excess of putty (yeah there is, you still ain't a pro yet), knife it off (top to bottom). Now do the same thing that you just did but start from that corner and go back the other way. Keep the mineral spirits on the putty. Repeat as necessary and when you have this down to one swipe across in each direction - get your card punched, you're ready! You'll soon learn how much putty is needed and will avoid having to knife a lot off in the final steps. The trick is to keep the putty warm, slightly moist with mineral spirits and keep the knife moving at a constant rate and pressure once you're doing the final pass (side to side). Any putty on the glass can be scrapped off with a razor blade later or cleaned off with mineral spirits after the putty has set up. Get into the mood for doing this, its not difficult once you get a rhythm going and keep moving. Its been a few years but I've done "several" house full of windows over the years. Certainly not a pro but those tips worked for me. Now the pro's will jump in and tell you some better ways (like outsourcing the job....) Bob S. "Jay Pique" wrote in message news DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. Glazing stuck to everything but the rabbet to which I'm trying to apply it, little wads of it smushed flat in the middle of the glass, fingerprints mashed into the corners, six different putty knives all over the floor....the list goes on. Incompetence rules the day. WTF? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH!!!! Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. JP ************************* Just plain frustrated. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com) |
#5
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Window Glazing
No need to do the rolling in hands and fingers trick anymore....
It comes in a tube to fit an ordinary caulking gun. Saves tons of time and the end of the tube is square to help form the bead... Home Depot has plenty of them. I just finished doing about 15 windows day before yesterday with the stuff.... "Jay Pique" wrote in message news DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. Glazing stuck to everything but the rabbet to which I'm trying to apply it, little wads of it smushed flat in the middle of the glass, fingerprints mashed into the corners, six different putty knives all over the floor....the list goes on. Incompetence rules the day. WTF? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH!!!! Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. JP ************************* Just plain frustrated. |
#6
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Window Glazing
Damn.......next they'll be telling me that we have pre-packaged, sliced
bread at the borgs too...what's this world coming to anyhow... Good points from both Doug and solarman. Bob S. "solarman" wrote in message ... No need to do the rolling in hands and fingers trick anymore.... It comes in a tube to fit an ordinary caulking gun. Saves tons of time and the end of the tube is square to help form the bead... Home Depot has plenty of them. I just finished doing about 15 windows day before yesterday with the stuff.... "Jay Pique" wrote in message news DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. Glazing stuck to everything but the rabbet to which I'm trying to apply it, little wads of it smushed flat in the middle of the glass, fingerprints mashed into the corners, six different putty knives all over the floor....the list goes on. Incompetence rules the day. WTF? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH!!!! Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. JP ************************* Just plain frustrated. |
#7
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Window Glazing
Not only that, but my old 5 in 1 is getting a bit rusty these
days... most you'll need is a 3/4 putty knife to nix the goofs here and there. The stuff cures in a few hours and ready to paint... Some of the Borg's around here sell Whoppers and chicken too... "Bob S." wrote in message .. . Damn.......next they'll be telling me that we have pre-packaged, sliced bread at the borgs too...what's this world coming to anyhow... Good points from both Doug and solarman. Bob S. "solarman" wrote in message ... No need to do the rolling in hands and fingers trick anymore.... It comes in a tube to fit an ordinary caulking gun. Saves tons of time and the end of the tube is square to help form the bead... Home Depot has plenty of them. I just finished doing about 15 windows day before yesterday with the stuff.... "Jay Pique" wrote in message news DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. Glazing stuck to everything but the rabbet to which I'm trying to apply it, little wads of it smushed flat in the middle of the glass, fingerprints mashed into the corners, six different putty knives all over the floor....the list goes on. Incompetence rules the day. WTF? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH!!!! Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. JP ************************* Just plain frustrated. |
#8
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Window Glazing
On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:40:04 GMT, "Bob S." wrote:
"solarman" wrote in message ... No need to do the rolling in hands and fingers trick anymore.... It comes in a tube to fit an ordinary caulking gun. Saves tons of time and the end of the tube is square to help form the bead... Home Depot has plenty of them. I just finished doing about 15 windows day before yesterday with the stuff.... Damn.......next they'll be telling me that we have pre-packaged, sliced bread at the borgs too...what's this world coming to anyhow... Good points from both Doug and solarman. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm debating whether or not to rip off the ones that I've already done and start over. They sorta look like crap, but they're at least "done" for now. In the future I'll definitely go with glazing in a tube, a real glazier's tool, mineral spirits out the ying-yang and a good dose of patience on tap for the inevitable frustrations. It's odd - I don't mind a lot of the tasks involved with restoration, but painting trim and glazing windows really bug me. I can sit and heat strip or sand or paint with a 4 incher all day long and be quite content. And the repair work and refitting is the bomb - it's the detail finishing that I'm not so keen on. Who knows - it's probably just lack of experience. Thanks again. JP |
#9
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Window Glazing
No....just mind set more than anything else. You knew going in that you
didn't know how to do this "easily" and it was down hill from there. Now you know ........ and now you can really hate it! Bob S. Who knows - it's probably just lack of experience. Thanks again. JP |
#10
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Window Glazing
the last time I tried the "putty in a tube" thing wasprolly 4-5 years
ago. at first it seemed like a good idea, but after a while I gave it up. the stuff in the tube definitely wasn't putty. it seemed to me more like latex caulking with chalk filler. the consistency was way "wetter" than I wanted. it skinned over quickly but took a while to dry. I had terrible luck trying to get a decent surface on it. the skin would drag and tear and there was nothing to do but scoop it out and start over. I didn't try anything with mineral spirits onna account of the latex base. Bridger On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:39:16 -0500, Jay Pique wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:40:04 GMT, "Bob S." wrote: "solarman" wrote in message .. . No need to do the rolling in hands and fingers trick anymore.... It comes in a tube to fit an ordinary caulking gun. Saves tons of time and the end of the tube is square to help form the bead... Home Depot has plenty of them. I just finished doing about 15 windows day before yesterday with the stuff.... Damn.......next they'll be telling me that we have pre-packaged, sliced bread at the borgs too...what's this world coming to anyhow... Good points from both Doug and solarman. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm debating whether or not to rip off the ones that I've already done and start over. They sorta look like crap, but they're at least "done" for now. In the future I'll definitely go with glazing in a tube, a real glazier's tool, mineral spirits out the ying-yang and a good dose of patience on tap for the inevitable frustrations. It's odd - I don't mind a lot of the tasks involved with restoration, but painting trim and glazing windows really bug me. I can sit and heat strip or sand or paint with a 4 incher all day long and be quite content. And the repair work and refitting is the bomb - it's the detail finishing that I'm not so keen on. Who knows - it's probably just lack of experience. Thanks again. JP |
#11
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Window Glazing
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#12
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Window Glazing
Jay Pique wrote in
: On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:40:04 GMT, "Bob S." wrote: "solarman" wrote in message .. . No need to do the rolling in hands and fingers trick anymore.... It comes in a tube to fit an ordinary caulking gun. Saves tons of time and the end of the tube is square to help form the bead... Home Depot has plenty of them. I just finished doing about 15 windows day before yesterday with the stuff.... Damn.......next they'll be telling me that we have pre-packaged, sliced bread at the borgs too...what's this world coming to anyhow... Good points from both Doug and solarman. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm debating whether or not to rip off the ones that I've already done and start over. They sorta look like crap, but they're at least "done" for now. In the future I'll definitely go with glazing in a tube, a real glazier's tool, mineral spirits out the ying-yang and a good dose of patience on tap for the inevitable frustrations. It's odd - I don't mind a lot of the tasks involved with restoration, but painting trim and glazing windows really bug me. I can sit and heat strip or sand or paint with a 4 incher all day long and be quite content. And the repair work and refitting is the bomb - it's the detail finishing that I'm not so keen on. Who knows - it's probably just lack of experience. Thanks again. JP Yup it's the detail stuff that takes about 90% of the time and seems to be about 10% of the show, but if you screw it up, everybody sees it. I do a lot of restoration work so I know where you're coming from. Glazing is more pracxtice than art. 33 sucks, so have good advice there. Roll a rope that is about 1/2 proud of the rabbet and lay it in. Wet the knife with mineral spirits or blo and press it in one fell swoop (or is it swope). I prefer blo to mineral spirits, but both work. Useta ski at JP a bit. How's the snow now. Been skiing for a week or so here. Regards, Hank (in the Catskills) -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#13
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Window Glazing
Mineral spirits on a cloth, keep the "stiff" blade putty knife clean. (I
actually use an old chisel with great success) Don't let the glazing putty get squishy soft, and pack it against the sash well, pressing against the wood before forming. The secret the pro's will share is trying to get the glazing putty no higher than the inside sash. And here is one I will share. After forming the angle, you sometimes get little splits in the putty against the class. Wipe your blade with spirits and with as little pressure as possible draw the knife the opposite direction, don't force it. The splits will be gone. Dave "Jay Pique" wrote in message news DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. Glazing stuck to everything but the rabbet to which I'm trying to apply it, little wads of it smushed flat in the middle of the glass, fingerprints mashed into the corners, six different putty knives all over the floor....the list goes on. Incompetence rules the day. WTF? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH!!!! Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. JP ************************* Just plain frustrated. |
#14
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Window Glazing
In article Fewzb.214350$Dw6.783344@attbi_s02, David Babcock
wrote: Mineral spirits on a cloth, keep the "stiff" blade putty knife clean. (I actually use an old chisel with great success) Don't let the glazing putty get squishy soft, and pack it against the sash well, pressing against the wood before forming. The secret the pro's will share is trying to get the glazing putty no higher than the inside sash. And here is one I will share. After forming the angle, you sometimes get little splits in the putty against the class. Wipe your blade with spirits and with as little pressure as possible draw the knife the opposite direction, don't force it. The splits will be gone. Dave If it helps... I'll add my .02 worth. The last 3 times I glazed windows, I smoothed the first application out with olive oil. I tried this once up at the cottage because I really had nothing much else to use. The next time I did the same thing because it worked so well the first time. Now I will do the same thing every time because it has worked 3 times in a row. The last time I glazed a window was after a New Year's 'accident'. Bearing this is mind, the ole' Olive oil trick worked perfectly even in January! HTH Andrew. |
#15
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Window Glazing
Jay, that was great advice from Bob S. Go for it. Yea do not forget the ones
that look crappy. You might be able to smooth them out with the putty knife dipped in mineral spirits. Good luck. OBTW........Did you hear about the blonde that didn't know the difference between putty and Vaseline???? All her windows fell out {:-)) Muff -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://mail.spaminspector.com "Jay Pique" wrote in message news DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. Glazing stuck to everything but the rabbet to which I'm trying to apply it, little wads of it smushed flat in the middle of the glass, fingerprints mashed into the corners, six different putty knives all over the floor....the list goes on. Incompetence rules the day. WTF? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH!!!! Somebody needs to build a better friggin' mousetrap. JP ************************* Just plain frustrated. |
#16
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Window Glazing
In addition to all the other comments, look at the Home Desperado for a
Hyde Glazing Knife; it has a flat blad at one end, and an angled blad at the other. Where the angles of the blade meet is a gap, which lets the excess putty come out as you slide it along the putty bead. Also, (if possible) look at your window from the other side to make sure you aren't covering up too much of the glass. Also a good way to see if your putty line is really even. -- Jedd Haas - Artist http://www.gallerytungsten.com http://www.antijazz.com http://www.epsno.com |
#17
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Window Glazing
I've just finished making a set of 4 casement windows for a local
farm-house. 300-yo Georgian house, and the planners like replacement windows to match the old ones. These buggers had 2 x 6-pane lights apiece, one opening and one fixed. Thing about Georgian window, is that they have very fine glazing bars (to let in as much light as possible and give that delicate tracery feeling). These ones were lamb's-tongue profile, just over 5/8ths at their widest point, which only allows for a 1/4" rebate for the glass. The jerk of a builder who fitted and glazed them must have applied the putty with his brickying trowel. I'll concede that it must be difficult to make such a fine putty bead that it doesn't stand over the rebate, but this guy's work, while neat enough, makes the glazing bars appear about 1" thick, which completely ruins the look and negates all that searching for a suitable router cutter to make the slim sash bars and the fiddly work M&T-ing such fine moulding. When I remonstrated with him, he at least had the grace to look somewhat sheepish and has promised to trim the overhang when he removes the lights to paint up the putty. Why remove the lights? Well, the windows are on the 3rd storey and he's afraid of ladder work and too cheap to hire a scaffold tower. Bit of a handicap for a builder, I'd have thought.... Grrrr. Frank "Jedd Haas" wrote in message ... In addition to all the other comments, look at the Home Desperado for a Hyde Glazing Knife; it has a flat blad at one end, and an angled blad at the other. Where the angles of the blade meet is a gap, which lets the excess putty come out as you slide it along the putty bead. Also, (if possible) look at your window from the other side to make sure you aren't covering up too much of the glass. Also a good way to see if your putty line is really even. -- Jedd Haas - Artist http://www.gallerytungsten.com http://www.antijazz.com http://www.epsno.com |
#18
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Window Glazing
Jay Pique writes:
DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. I feel your pain, my brother. Luckily I've only had to replace a pane here, a pane there so my suffering has been as nowt compared to yours . . . Other's have give excellect tips on working with glazing compound, but you should consider this (URL'll prolly wrap, so C&P) http://www.dap.com/retail/retail_det...1&prodhdrid=67 Unlike standard DAP 33 it's a latex, but friends tell me it holds up just fine. Best, Marc |
#19
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Window Glazing
Two words.........DAP CRAP
Dave "MrAoD" wrote in message ... Jay Pique writes: DAGS (excuse me - "Did A Google Search") and found a few threads from waaay back when. I'm in the process of slathering "33" Glazing onto a bunch of door windows and I'm damn near ready to smash every ****ing piece of glass I just pointed. What an absolute disaster. I feel your pain, my brother. Luckily I've only had to replace a pane here, a pane there so my suffering has been as nowt compared to yours . . . Other's have give excellect tips on working with glazing compound, but you should consider this (URL'll prolly wrap, so C&P) http://www.dap.com/retail/retail_det...1&prodhdrid=67 Unlike standard DAP 33 it's a latex, but friends tell me it holds up just fine. Best, Marc |
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